Lord Heseltine - What a Plonker!

[WBA123]

While I appreciate and accept your opinions 123 and I am sure that you are an intelligent person, you do appear to be in a minority on this board regarding Brexit. You appear to assume that everything that you glean from the media is fact and that we, who wish to leave, glean fiction. I'm convinced that there is fact and fiction coming from both sides. What I am sick and tired of, and I know that you will disagree, is for over two years we have had the whinging and whining from Remainers because they lost the vote. If the vote had gone the other way that would have been the end of it! All this conniving by Remainers to get the result overturned has stifled and obstructed the leaving process and that is the main reason why we are in such a mess now. If MP's,who voted to remain in leave constituencies, had accepted that they are only the agents of the people and not God Almighty, then we would have exited with a much greater degree of success.

Likewise, I appreciate and accept your opinions too LB. You are one of the more sensible posters on here.

And I completely understand I'm in the minority. But I have to be able to give my opinion without being called a moaner or a traitor...

I do disagree (of course!) re the media because I don't think its difficult to question the sources of our information. I find many on here use terms and phrases from questionable sources which is why I highlight it.

I disagree also on the conniving, stifling and obstructing too, because there was never a 'good Brexit' on the table. Farage, Gove, Fox, Johnson etc. sold a pack of lies. We will have no better deal than the one we already have remaining a member of the EU. If there was a better alternative with clear tangible benefits, parliament would have voted for it. MP's are going to struggle to vote in favour of making us worse off, although it's obvious some will have no hesitation.

What we are trying to do by reaching a deal is limit the economic damage Brexit will cause and has already caused. It shouldn't be like that, those at the top should choose the most prosperous direction for the country to go in. They should also put national interests first and not their own party. Both of our leading parties have been a disgrace throughout this process.

Nothing has changed my view since the referendum, in fact I've only become more of a remainer. I don't think people who voted Leave are thick or stupid, just that they've been misled by charlatans and now we're being run by incompetent fools. This referendum has only divided the country and absolutely nothing positive has come from it so far, I'm not holding my breath for the near future either.

[baggieal]

Likewise, I appreciate and accept your opinions too LB. You are one of the more sensible posters on here.

And I completely understand I'm in the minority. But I have to be able to give my opinion without being called a moaner or a traitor...

I do disagree (of course!) re the media because I don't think its difficult to question the sources of our information. I find many on here use terms and phrases from questionable sources which is why I highlight it.

I disagree also on the conniving, stifling and obstructing too, because there was never a 'good Brexit' on the table. Farage, Gove, Fox, Johnson etc. sold a pack of lies. We will have no better deal than the one we already have remaining a member of the EU. If there was a better alternative with clear tangible benefits, parliament would have voted for it. MP's are going to struggle to vote in favour of making us worse off, although it's obvious some will have no hesitation.

What we are trying to do by reaching a deal is limit the economic damage Brexit will cause and has already caused. It shouldn't be like that, those at the top should choose the most prosperous direction for the country to go in. They should also put national interests first and not their own party. Both of our leading parties have been a disgrace throughout this process.

Nothing has changed my view since the referendum, in fact I've only become more of a remainer. I don't think people who voted Leave are thick or stupid, just that they've been misled by charlatans and now we're being run by incompetent fools. This referendum has only divided the country and absolutely nothing positive has come from it so far, I'm not holding my breath for the near future either.

"I don't think people who voted Leave are thick or stupid, just that they've been misled by charlatans" Why would Lawyers, Judges, Surgeons as an example who voted leave - be misled? Your statement says you don't think leave people are thick but you are certainly implying this by saying intelligent people were misled!!!! Are you seriously saying 17.4 million people were misled?

[Leicesterbaggie]

As I've said to you before 123, I think you and I ought to stay clear of politics and keep our discussions firmly concerning Albion. We have far more in common on those issues.

[mickd1961]

I thought we were talking about age demographics...

Generally the majority of younger voters want to remain and the majority of older voters want to leave.

Which means if this point hasn't already arrived - at some point in the future, the majority will want us to remain. So we'll be back in before you know it!

So why not shut the fk up and wait for it?

[stripes39]

He's 100% right.

If you want to keep using the 'will of the people' as an argument then you'll find a flaw to that logic using the demographic who voted.

And that's a truly crap analogy. Ever heard of PPI, where people were hoodwinked into buying something and eventually got their cash returned..

Problem is 123 where does this all end? The British people were lied to when the referendum to join took place in the 70’s. Cabinet records released under the 30 year rule show categorically that the voters were only told a part of the story and the real intention of where this was leading ( more than a convenient trading block) was suppressed following collusion between Heaths cabinet and Brussels. So, it could be argued using that logic that this should have been re-voted on years ago given the voters were most definitely mislead and lied to. We can just go round in circles all day using hindsight as we have to be consistent in our arguments

[albion68]

I thought we were talking about age demographics...

Generally the majority of younger voters want to remain and the majority of older voters want to leave.

Which means if this point hasn't already arrived - at some point in the future, the majority will want us to remain. So we'll be back in before you know it!

do you make it up as you go along,my 2grandsons who are under 21 both voted out.with no pushing from me. 1of my in-laws who is over 80 voted in.i truly believe we’re in a mess because nobody thought a out vote ,would be no were near 17 million never mind win the referendum.thats why the remainers are so pl$$ed off.gravy train coming to a sudden halt.

[WBA123]

do you make it up as you go along,my 2grandsons who are under 21 both voted out.with no pushing from me. 1of my in-laws who is over 80 voted in.i truly believe we’re in a mess because nobody thought a out vote ,would be no were near 17 million never mind win the referendum.thats why the remainers are so pl$$ed off.gravy train coming to a sudden halt.

I don't quite know where to start with this. There will obviously be younger people who voted to leave and older people who voted to remain. I'm going across the general voting demographics for the country. This is all available with a quick google search..

[WBA123]

"I don't think people who voted Leave are thick or stupid, just that they've been misled by charlatans" Why would Lawyers, Judges, Surgeons as an example who voted leave - be misled? Your statement says you don't think leave people are thick but you are certainly implying this by saying intelligent people were misled!!!! Are you seriously saying 17.4 million people were misled?

Yes. I am.

[Barrera]

While I appreciate and accept your opinions 123 and I am sure that you are an intelligent person, you do appear to be in a minority on this board regarding Brexit. You appear to assume that everything that you glean from the media is fact and that we, who wish to leave, glean fiction. I'm convinced that there is fact and fiction coming from both sides. What I am sick and tired of, and I know that you will disagree, is for over two years we have had the whinging and whining from Remainers because they lost the vote. If the vote had gone the other way that would have been the end of it! All this conniving by Remainers to get the result overturned has stifled and obstructed the leaving process and that is the main reason why we are in such a mess now. If MP's,who voted to remain in leave constituencies, had accepted that they are only the agents of the people and not God Almighty, then we would have exited with a much greater degree of success.

Actually you are totally wrong. If the referendum vote had gone the other way do you really think that would have been the end of the debate for UKIP, Farage, the ERG and all the other Brexit zealots..... not a chance. The Referendum was completelt flawed - whilst it asked the people do you want to Leave or Remain in the EU ......it never said anything about what Leave would look like....and as we have seen over the past 2.5 years the blatant lies of the Leave campaign have been exposed for what they were....The only way out of this political mess (created by the Tories) is a People's vote on ALL the options including Remain...

[mickd1961]

Actually you are totally wrong. If the referendum vote had gone the other way do you really think that would have been the end of the debate for UKIP, Farage, the ERG and all the other Brexit zealots..... not a chance. The Referendum was completelt flawed - whilst it asked the people do you want to Leave or Remain in the EU ......it never said anything about what Leave would look like....and as we have seen over the past 2.5 years the blatant lies of the Leave campaign have been exposed for what they were....The only way out of this political mess (created by the Tories) is a People's vote on ALL the options including Remain...

It wouldn’t have been the end of the “debate” but any dissenting voices would have been shouted down as the “Liberal Elite” laughed at the “Leavers”.

We’re leaving......BYE!