O/T 17 Million F*ck Offs - A Song About Brexit

[the_anticlough]

all we stand for in “the West”.
.

Start by truly realising this cannot include hatred of people based on their way of making sense of the world and their existence, however flawed you think that is.

It was bad taste to post this partial condoning within 24 hrs of the massacre of your fellow citizens. You do make some reasoned arguments but the far-right constituency you appeal to has many potential Brenton Tarrants, Anders Breiviks, Thomas Mairs and violence is only going to breed more violence. It has to stop

Yes to legitimate political activity. No to Islamophobia

Going to Auschwitz will live with me forever. Take another walk around those sites one day and picture the scene as scores of innocent people lost their lives. It could be food for your soul. Good luck.

[drillerpie]

OK, I will respond. Perhaps some good might come of it, perhaps not. It’s long, but please read it.

Yes, I have posted about Islam in the past. Those posts have often been inspired by acts as despicable and evil as that which that piece of scum perpetrated here in Christchurch yesterday. I haven’t posted much recently because Christchurch is where I live now. Couldn’t sleep last night after dealing with friends and family so went for a walk with the phone for some distraction – hence my question to you. (I drive past that Deans Ave Mosque every day on my way to work by the way).

But as you’re bringing this up, here’s a section of something I posted two years ago, in March 2017, after Keith Palmer was murdered:


“When you have a huge problem, there are 4 things you need to do:
1. Understand the history of why it’s there.
2. Name it.
3. Decide on a course of action.
4. Have alternative options ready if your course of action in “3” doesn’t work.

Broadly, there are only 3 types of action available in step “3” when we wish to change something societal or political. These are:
A. Words (persuasion, TV and Radio debate and education come in here)
B. Policy (a large range of possible options here)
C. Violence (vigilantism, mob violence, civil unrest, civil war, revolution and terrorism)

Some suggest a “D” which is to ignore the problem. I don’t believe this is credible. Theresa May said Islam was a “great faith” & tried that. When you prescribe a course of action you have to look at the empirical evidence to see if it works and time has shown ignoring the issue of Islam inspired terror changes nothing.

Going back to 1 to 4 above, most will concede there’s a long, complex history that has got us to where we are - Bible, Koran, Hadiths, Crusades, 2nd WW, Israel, 9-11, Iraq, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, uncontrolled mass-immigration, Saudi funded Faith Schools - all getting us to the recent years of Islamic terror incidents across Europe. Before I go on, yes, there have been non-Muslim acts of terror – plenty of them – Anders Breivik for example. I acknowledge these, terror has come from many directions, but right now, in the UK, there's a growing problem with Islamic Terror – surely you’d concede THAT is the problem to focus on with urgency for the present? Ignore it & we make a British Anders Breivik more likely and you will have brought about that which you least wished to happen.

Politicians MUST name the problem. Disastrous foreign policy decisions have acted as recruiting sergeants BUT both politicians and the Muslim community must acknowledge there is a problem to be dealt with. They must face up to the uncomfortable fact that the Koran and the Hadith, if taught to children in the absence of any other option for interacting with the world, can create a mindset that is not only incompatible with, but worse, violently opposed to, all we stand for in “the West”. Teach that to a child in the UK and you end up, maybe, with a beheaded soldier and a stabbed to death policeman on the streets of the UK. One simply CANNOT just ignore such events and hope they go away.

Having named the problem, that brings us to point “3” – what action to take?
“A” – words & debate are failing and we now need some “B” – policy. The government cannot get here yet because they will not name the problem. So at the moment we are stuck somewhere between A and B. There are a huge range of options for policy but we simply cannot have a rational discussion because the Govt will not NAME the issue and a section of the public & media stamp out debate.

I believe that the scary part is that the longer we ignore this issue and the longer politicians bury their heads in the sand (as some on this board do and a huge number of the UK population do), counter-extremism, counter violence, civil unrest which will probably include murder of Muslims and mosque burnings and Civil War will become more likely as "B" is leapfrogged to "C". I'd prefer a bit of “B” right now, rather than a lot of “C” in 5 or 10 years time when the pressure cooker blows.”


After posting that two years ago, I was banned.
This was because people accused me of Islamophobia. Now you are conflating my wish to write and speak about this issue in the way I did above with a murderous evil scumbag who killed innocent people. First, to hell with you for that.
Second, the reason I post about this stuff is not to cause violence but because I want it to cease. And that includes stopping the murder of innocent Muslims as you can see from my post two years ago – do I really have to explain that to you??

Lastly, and I’d like an honest answer please - do you genuinely think that calling someone who writes as I do “Far Right”, and/or getting them banned from social media is the way to prevent the sort of stuff that happened here yesterday?
Believe me, if you can convince me it is, I will stop posting now.

This does seem to be, at least in part, a justification Alty Pie. I think that's wrong morally and factually.

Morally because in a conversation about right wing terror, the day after a right wing terror attack, you've written a post almost exclusively about Muslims. It seems like a refusal to acknowledge the problem.

Factually because you seem to be saying that extreme right wing terrorism exists as a defence mechanism to Islamic extremists but that isn't true, right wing extremists have always been against the 'other', meaning people not like them, think of Timothy McVeigh in the 90s, what did that have to do with Muslims? 9/11 hadn't even happened yet.

As for whether you personally are far right or not I don't know you well enough to say. I think I remember you posting some unconventional opinions about black people and predisposition towards criminality (apologies if that wasn't you) and what you've just written here is pretty much what I'd expect to hear from an extreme Islamist or their Western apologists after a terror attack in England, just swapping previous terror attacks for Western air strikes on Muslims and the rhetoric is pretty much the same. You've also included some references to a centuries old conflict, as if that was relevant, which is also something that far right people tend to do.

Unfortunately I think terrorism on both sides is a fact of life in the modern world. It's terribly sad but the security services can't stop every one of them, but it should be roundly condemned as they don't represent normal people.

[TheBlackHorse]

... thanks Alty - excellent.
Policy: try making this country less attractive to those who live overseas. Encourage those who send money earned in the UK back to their country of origin to use their acquired expertise to go back to develop their country of origin.
It has taken this country centuries to develop to where we are now. There is no short cut.

[i961pie]

Start by truly realising this cannot include hatred of people based on their way of making sense of the world and their existence, however flawed you think that is.

It was bad taste to post this partial condoning within 24 hrs of the massacre of your fellow citizens. You do make some reasoned arguments but the far-right constituency you appeal to has many potential Brenton Tarrants, Anders Breiviks, Thomas Mairs and violence is only going to breed more violence. It has to stop

Yes to legitimate political activity. No to Islamophobia

Going to Auschwitz will live with me forever. Take another walk around those sites one day and picture the scene as scores of innocent people lost their lives. It could be food for your soul. Good luck.

Unfortunately Europe is lurching to the right.
It seems that when politicians don't listen to the people and their fears the people use the only weapon they have, and quite often it results in a protest vote.

[the_anticlough]

Unfortunately Europe is lurching to the right.
It seems that when politicians don't listen to the people and their fears the people use the only weapon they have, and quite often it results in a protest vote.

If there is a lurch to the right, it is being facilitated by the political class along with much more media exposure to fan the flames.

Let's say a generation passes with nationalist movements to the fore. What will happen to the underlying socio-economic structures? And life for the ordinary Joe?

Answer - Jack ****.
Just guaranteeing that the privileged pass on their privileges and we pass on insecurity to our children. And on it goes. Thanks, nationalism. Keep waving that flag.

[BigFatPie]

OK, I will respond. Perhaps some good might come of it, perhaps not. It’s long, but please read it.

Yes, I have posted about Islam in the past. Those posts have often been inspired by acts as despicable and evil as that which that piece of scum perpetrated here in Christchurch yesterday. I haven’t posted much recently because Christchurch is where I live now. Couldn’t sleep last night after dealing with friends and family so went for a walk with the phone for some distraction – hence my question to you. (I drive past that Deans Ave Mosque every day on my way to work by the way).

But as you’re bringing this up, here’s a section of something I posted two years ago, in March 2017, after Keith Palmer was murdered:


“When you have a huge problem, there are 4 things you need to do:
1. Understand the history of why it’s there.
2. Name it.
3. Decide on a course of action.
4. Have alternative options ready if your course of action in “3” doesn’t work.

Broadly, there are only 3 types of action available in step “3” when we wish to change something societal or political. These are:
A. Words (persuasion, TV and Radio debate and education come in here)
B. Policy (a large range of possible options here)
C. Violence (vigilantism, mob violence, civil unrest, civil war, revolution and terrorism)

Some suggest a “D” which is to ignore the problem. I don’t believe this is credible. Theresa May said Islam was a “great faith” & tried that. When you prescribe a course of action you have to look at the empirical evidence to see if it works and time has shown ignoring the issue of Islam inspired terror changes nothing.

Going back to 1 to 4 above, most will concede there’s a long, complex history that has got us to where we are - Bible, Koran, Hadiths, Crusades, 2nd WW, Israel, 9-11, Iraq, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, uncontrolled mass-immigration, Saudi funded Faith Schools - all getting us to the recent years of Islamic terror incidents across Europe. Before I go on, yes, there have been non-Muslim acts of terror – plenty of them – Anders Breivik for example. I acknowledge these, terror has come from many directions, but right now, in the UK, there's a growing problem with Islamic Terror – surely you’d concede THAT is the problem to focus on with urgency for the present? Ignore it & we make a British Anders Breivik more likely and you will have brought about that which you least wished to happen.

Politicians MUST name the problem. Disastrous foreign policy decisions have acted as recruiting sergeants BUT both politicians and the Muslim community must acknowledge there is a problem to be dealt with. They must face up to the uncomfortable fact that the Koran and the Hadith, if taught to children in the absence of any other option for interacting with the world, can create a mindset that is not only incompatible with, but worse, violently opposed to, all we stand for in “the West”. Teach that to a child in the UK and you end up, maybe, with a beheaded soldier and a stabbed to death policeman on the streets of the UK. One simply CANNOT just ignore such events and hope they go away.

Having named the problem, that brings us to point “3” – what action to take?
“A” – words & debate are failing and we now need some “B” – policy. The government cannot get here yet because they will not name the problem. So at the moment we are stuck somewhere between A and B. There are a huge range of options for policy but we simply cannot have a rational discussion because the Govt will not NAME the issue and a section of the public & media stamp out debate.

I believe that the scary part is that the longer we ignore this issue and the longer politicians bury their heads in the sand (as some on this board do and a huge number of the UK population do), counter-extremism, counter violence, civil unrest which will probably include murder of Muslims and mosque burnings and Civil War will become more likely as "B" is leapfrogged to "C". I'd prefer a bit of “B” right now, rather than a lot of “C” in 5 or 10 years time when the pressure cooker blows.”


After posting that two years ago, I was banned.
This was because people accused me of Islamophobia. Now you are conflating my wish to write and speak about this issue in the way I did above with a murderous evil scumbag who killed innocent people. First, to hell with you for that.
Second, the reason I post about this stuff is not to cause violence but because I want it to cease. And that includes stopping the murder of innocent Muslims as you can see from my post two years ago – do I really have to explain that to you??

Lastly, and I’d like an honest answer please - do you genuinely think that calling someone who writes as I do “Far Right”, and/or getting them banned from social media is the way to prevent the sort of stuff that happened here yesterday?
Believe me, if you can convince me it is, I will stop posting now.

What a load of self serving crap. 50 people dead after a terrorist attack in the city you now live and you’re reposting stuff from 2 years ago in a weird attempt to say “I warned you”. No mention of course of the white supremacist in the White House who the attacker himself said was an inspiration.

You’ve banged on lots about Muslims and how you want to keep them out of Europe. You and your ilk are very much part of the problem so to be fair, stick your “solutions” straight up your arse. I’m sick and tired of right wing nobs and their warnings about what will happen in this country and elsewhere if they don’t get their own way.

[navypie]

What a load of self serving crap. 50 people dead after a terrorist attack in the city you now live and you’re reposting stuff from 2 years ago in a weird attempt to say “I warned you”. No mention of course of the white supremacist in the White House who the attacker himself said was an inspiration.

You’ve banged on lots about Muslims and how you want to keep them out of Europe. You and your ilk are very much part of the problem so to be fair, stick your “solutions” straight up your arse. I’m sick and tired of right wing nobs and their warnings about what will happen in this country and elsewhere if they don’t get their own way.

I agree with every word of that fat boy. Corbyn quite rightly called the terrible events in Chritschurch a "terrorist attack" . Intresting though that he only called the Manchester terror attack an " incident".

[drillerpie]

I agree with every word of that fat boy. Corbyn quite rightly called the terrible events in Chritschurch a "terrorist attack" . Intresting though that he only called the Manchester terror attack an " incident".

I've just Googled 'Jeremy Corbyn Manchester bombing' and found a BBC interview where he calls it "an appalling, atrocious act of violence " if that helps.

[Trickytreesreds]

I've just Googled 'Jeremy Corbyn Manchester bombing' and found a BBC interview where he calls it "an appalling, atrocious act of violence " if that helps.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/sta...0%2Fframe.html

[navypie]

I've just Googled 'Jeremy Corbyn Manchester bombing' and found a BBC interview where he calls it "an appalling, atrocious act of violence " if that helps.

Oh dear , seems you didn't dig deep enough. Thanks Tricky.