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Thread: Accounts out soon

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    Almost as flimsy a straw as holding on for a second referendum for the bast part of 3 years eh!!
    Lol...suspect not. More chance of that than Bolton’s results being eradicated I’d have thought.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    6,481
    EFL Regulation 12.2 states that, if a member club ceases to be a member:

    "during any Normal Playing Season, its playing record shall be expunged and the number of relegation places from the relevant Division for that Season shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members;"

    I believe going into liquidation means automatic cessation of membership whereas going into administration allows them to continue playing but with a 12 point deduction.
    Last edited by Geoff Parkstone; 20-03-2019 at 05:23 PM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,716
    The gender pay report is also due in the next couple of weeks. Last time they reported a 76.6% mean hourly pay gap, but a -5% median hourly pay gap. Just thought I'd bore you with that pointless piece of information.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,651
    Asked my accountant about it this morning He said Morris will turn most of the debt into equity Clear as mud to me

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2018
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    6,481
    The debt is in the holding company but that has already been turned into equity or quasi equity by the time it has filtered down to the subsidiary companies that include the club. Of these subsidiaries, only the club itself has the ability to generate consistent profits (but it, of course, doesn't) to service that debt up the chain. Unless the ground is sold as a one off.

    It's the group holding company that is indebted to MM, but the money he invests can and does leach out via the club (most of it) the academy (a smaller amount) and potentially the ground. Those three aspects of the whole are in 3 separate companies.

    So whilst viewed in isolation the club may appear broadly debt free, as its accounts show lots of equity, the reality is that it is the only part of the group that has the ability to earn recurring profits (in the PL) and hence service the debt if necessary.

    There's an old age "substance over form". The club may be debt free, but the structure says "no, you're not"

    Sorry if you're bored by this Adi, try checking the gender pay gap between Lampard and the tea lady instead 😏

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,487
    All double Dutch to me, maybe DCFCarmy will get his wish and Morris will depart.........but then who, careful what you wish for

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    12,923
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    The debt is in the holding company but that has already been turned into equity or quasi equity by the time it has filtered down to the subsidiary companies that include the club. Of these subsidiaries, only the club itself has the ability to generate consistent profits (but it, of course, doesn't) to service that debt up the chain. Unless the ground is sold as a one off.

    It's the group holding company that is indebted to MM, but the money he invests can and does leach out via the club (most of it) the academy (a smaller amount) and potentially the ground. Those three aspects of the whole are in 3 separate companies.

    So whilst viewed in isolation the club may appear broadly debt free, as its accounts show lots of equity, the reality is that it is the only part of the group that has the ability to earn recurring profits (in the PL) and hence service the debt if necessary.

    There's an old age "substance over form". The club may be debt free, but the structure says "no, you're not"

    Sorry if you're bored by this Adi, try checking the gender pay gap between Lampard and the tea lady instead ��
    You’re explanation above is one of the reasons why experts have, wrongly in my opinion, been damned and why the Brexit decision should never have been put to ‘the people’, Parky.
    You obviously know what you’re talking about with regard to the financial complexities of running a football club but most don’t understand much of what you say...Adi is clearly bored and I’m with Stenson and mista...none of us are daft but I for one will admit that your explanation is way above our heads.
    So...in layman’s terms...as far as DCFC’s future is concerned...are we in the sh1t for the foreseeable or is there a way out?

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    6,481
    In laymans terms is a tricky ask, but Ill try:

    The owner, or some other benefactor, needs to keep pumping 20-30 million a year into the club to keep it going as it stands. Whether its by loans or equity is basically irrelevant but rather a dressing up for FFP I guess. Ultimately he who puts the money in can reasonably hope to get it back, when it is at these levels. He cant afford to play games.

    We have seen the success of 20-30 million a year injection. We hover around the playoffs but cannot get over the line. Once, when we did, it nearly ruined us. To get the magic ticket of promotion we need:

    1. luck
    2. more luck
    3. to keep strengthening the squad with investment
    4. to develop home grown players for first team or to sell to cover 3 above

    If 20-30 million a year wont get us there, what figure will? 40m? 50m? You tell me. But that can only come from the owner and commercial activities, the latter of which is unlikely to grow unless promoted - chicken and egg.

    So we are let us say £ 150m in debt to the owner who appears to want out. I guess he bit off something more than he could chew, as well as some questionable decision making, possibly more informed by a passion for the club than logic.

    In searching for new deep pockets to fund the next phase of development of the club, the existence of this debt is an almighty millstone round our neck as whatever goes (back) to the departing owner either comes out of the pockets of the new one, and thus dilutes what he will put into the club, or effectively would mortgage the future income from promotion - if any. The new investor would also be hamstrung by the inherited FFP position for at least 3 years.

    So its very much like being between a rock and a hard place. That said there are still people around who have more money than sense and want to invest in a football club. The trouble is that unless you have vast resources (and clearly £ 500m of wealth isn't vast enough) it seems like you are just spaffing away what money you do have.

    How long will the current ownership tolerate consistently putting 5% of his net worth into the club every year? Not long it seems. Q:What happens if he stops. A:Ask Bolton fans, ask Coventry fans, the list goes on. The future is fairly bleak in my view, if MM is intent on heading into the sunset. - can he find a mug both willing and very deep pocketted, to assume his mantle? Good luck on that, there may be people out there willing, but not that many able.

    the model can work, but you cant hang around 5 years or more trying to get to the money tree. Trouble is that you are limited as to how much you can throw at it, unless you are QPR etc.

    In short, you cannot buy success unless you spend huge amounts - the cost of a Neymar could totally wipe out our massive debt, so how can we aspire to get to that level? I dont think we can unless we are bought by Microsoft or a small middle eastern country

    The good news is, its not just us in this mire. Football outside the top half dozen teams is living on borrowed credit, borrowed time. All over its being financed not by what it can generate (even including Sky money) but by sources of external wealth who cover losses in order to buy their way to supremacy. Maybe 20, even 10, years ago it may have been possible to succeed by the "buy your way" model, but now? I'm not sure it can be. The fun will start when the TV broadcasters decide that they hold the whip hand in negotiation, and start renewing TV contracts at 50% of expiring: then the whole bloated farce will melt down.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    12,923
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    In laymans terms is a tricky ask, but Ill try:

    The owner, or some other benefactor, needs to keep pumping 20-30 million a year into the club to keep it going as it stands. Whether its by loans or equity is basically irrelevant but rather a dressing up for FFP I guess. Ultimately he who puts the money in can reasonably hope to get it back, when it is at these levels. He cant afford to play games.

    We have seen the success of 20-30 million a year injection. We hover around the playoffs but cannot get over the line. Once, when we did, it nearly ruined us. To get the magic ticket of promotion we need:

    1. luck
    2. more luck
    3. to keep strengthening the squad with investment
    4. to develop home grown players for first team or to sell to cover 3 above

    If 20-30 million a year wont get us there, what figure will? 40m? 50m? You tell me. But that can only come from the owner and commercial activities, the latter of which is unlikely to grow unless promoted - chicken and egg.

    So we are let us say £ 150m in debt to the owner who appears to want out. I guess he bit off something more than he could chew, as well as some questionable decision making, possibly more informed by a passion for the club than logic.

    In searching for new deep pockets to fund the next phase of development of the club, the existence of this debt is an almighty millstone round our neck as whatever goes (back) to the departing owner either comes out of the pockets of the new one, and thus dilutes what he will put into the club, or effectively would mortgage the future income from promotion - if any. The new investor would also be hamstrung by the inherited FFP position for at least 3 years.

    So its very much like being between a rock and a hard place. That said there are still people around who have more money than sense and want to invest in a football club. The trouble is that unless you have vast resources (and clearly £ 500m of wealth isn't vast enough) it seems like you are just spaffing away what money you do have.

    How long will the current ownership tolerate consistently putting 5% of his net worth into the club every year? Not long it seems. Q:What happens if he stops. A:Ask Bolton fans, ask Coventry fans, the list goes on. The future is fairly bleak in my view, if MM is intent on heading into the sunset. - can he find a mug both willing and very deep pocketted, to assume his mantle? Good luck on that, there may be people out there willing, but not that many able.

    the model can work, but you cant hang around 5 years or more trying to get to the money tree. Trouble is that you are limited as to how much you can throw at it, unless you are QPR etc.

    In short, you cannot buy success unless you spend huge amounts - the cost of a Neymar could totally wipe out our massive debt, so how can we aspire to get to that level? I dont think we can unless we are bought by Microsoft or a small middle eastern country

    The good news is, its not just us in this mire. Football outside the top half dozen teams is living on borrowed credit, borrowed time. All over its being financed not by what it can generate (even including Sky money) but by sources of external wealth who cover losses in order to buy their way to supremacy. Maybe 20, even 10, years ago it may have been possible to succeed by the "buy your way" model, but now? I'm not sure it can be. The fun will start when the TV broadcasters decide that they hold the whip hand in negotiation, and start renewing TV contracts at 50% of expiring: then the whole bloated farce will melt down.
    Full marks for effort. Thanks.
    So, to cut a long story short...unless we are bought by the likes of a super rich company or Middle Eastern oil billionaire the immediate future is screwed and we just return to being another of the Championship also rans while Mel has probably weakened his bargaining position by speaking so openly of his willingness to get shut of us.
    For someone who became so rich it’s sometimes difficult to see quite how. Maybe he exhausted his luck before the DCFC takeover...though tbf I seem to remember some warnings - from Rats and Angry amongst others I believe - that this might be the outcome.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,487
    To be fair though he hasn't said the club is for sale only that he's open to outside investment...........or is that that same?

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