o/t the problem with equality and diversity

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

White British is an ethnicity classification used in the 2011 United Kingdom Census. In the 2011 census, the White British population was 51,736,290, 81.9% of the UK total population, so non-white approx 18.1 %

In England and Wales 38% of knife possession offenders under 25s were non-white in 2017. It was two thirds in London.


A bit disproportionate of the population as a whole isn’t it?

Wonderful place is London, the South East boroughs are turning into no go areas after dark. The police don’t even go there during the day. Places like Greenwich where knife crime is up more than 30%, what’s changed? The ethnic mix of the area, that’s what’s changed.

[Exiletyke]

This isn't really multiculturalism. It's the ridiculous allowing of single community to take over a particular area of a town, and create it's own ghetto. I would completely agree that when a group of immigrants move into any town, and are simply allowed to settle without any planned effort at integration, then human nature will take over and they will become entrenched, have resistance and resentment from the locals and build up their own entrenchment.

This is a failure of planning rather than the whole concept of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is about a community that consists of a variety of races and beliefs. That's very different from the problems in many of our towns.

Where I live in East London is a great example of multiculturalism working. Our schools and colleges mix children from all over the world and good schools still flourish. I think my daughter, 6 years old, really benefits from learning about other cultures, religions and values from her class mates.

Going back to the op - the local Muslim community are opposing their children discussing things that are in alignment with British values. They are seeking to remain as an isolated community and we should challenge that by doing as the school are doing - talking to them and taking their views and fears into account, but then moving forward with exploring and reinforcing the British values of tolerance, democracy, rule of law as part of their education.

The schools are absolutely the answer. We may gain control of some immigration but clearly we will still need immigrant skills and workers. But we have some well integrated multicultural communities and some, like Rotherham, with quite entrenched immigrant communities. We need to use the schools and education to be at the forefront of creating more integrated communities. But for that we need a hold to any hostilities from both communities resisting British values as well as 'local' communities. Both need to send their kids to the same schools and educate children to be tolerant and accepting of other ways of life.

The City near me has two or three ares which are close to being non white areas & I'll tell you how that happens
When properties come on the market for rental or to buy they are snapped up by non whites Nothing to do with planning
How do planners stop or influence the sale or rental of a property ie a transaction between two parties?
Perhaps the concept of buy to let plays a hand here don't you think?

I would take issue with you on "we need to challenge" comment
We need to enforce our laws

[ragingpup]

The City near me has two or three ares which are close to being non white areas & I'll tell you how that happens
When properties come on the market for rental or to buy they are snapped up by non whites Nothing to do with planning
How do planners stop or influence the sale or rental of a property ie a transaction between two parties?
Perhaps the concept of buy to let plays a hand here don't you think?

I would take issue with you on "we need to challenge" comment
We need to enforce our laws

Should have been clearer. I’m talking about areas where immigration is part of a government or local council initiative, where large numbers of immigrant workers are imported to work and live in targeted areas. This includes the influx of Roma into Yorkshire, and also into larger scale national programmes where large numbers came over from Africa and Asia from the 1950s. In such cases, we know that such immigration is going to happen, we are inviting them to come, but we make little effort to stop ghettos emerging. I think the government and local institutions involves with these programmes should take into account the settling of these immigrants into their communities.

Where ghetto communities have been created, assuming we’re all accepting that this isn’t a good thing and there is a reluctance to integrate into the wider community then we have to decide what to do about it. Many in these communities in Yorkshire (Muslim communities I’m thinking) have been here many years and are UK citizens with all the rights etc. So they have a right to stay and live here – the question is how do we best get them to integrate? And I personally think that enforcing integration into schools together with local children and other resident cultures so that all kids mix and experience a national curriculum that encourages tolerance, respect, UK law, democracy is the best way to do this for the future good. That’s why I’m backing the school’s action in the op, and think we have to enforce integration and delivery with the UK curriculum.

Other than a vague reference to ‘enforcing our laws’, which I’m not sure what that would look like, I’m interested in what other solutions to achieving better integration that might be put forward?

[ragingpup]

White British is an ethnicity classification used in the 2011 United Kingdom Census. In the 2011 census, the White British population was 51,736,290, 81.9% of the UK total population, so non-white approx 18.1 %

In England and Wales 38% of knife possession offenders under 25s were non-white in 2017. It was two thirds in London.


A bit disproportionate of the population as a whole isn’t it?

Wonderful place is London, the South East boroughs are turning into no go areas after dark. The police don’t even go there during the day. Places like Greenwich where knife crime is up more than 30%, what’s changed? The ethnic mix of the area, that’s what’s changed.

I think you and Fire in your messages are referring to a real but hugely overblown problem media reporting wise that bears little resemblance to the deeper issues on black kids and knife crime.

Akala is a hugely eloquent expert on this whole topic, black culture, underclass and crime, and if you’re interested in explanations for such phenomena here he is outlining his ideas to Piers Morgan. I chose this issue as I think Piers tends to share your opinions on this and is not slow to shoot down waffly lefty academics. But even he was fascinated by Akala’s discussion on the real causes of youth crime and the relationship of black culture to it. Recommend it to anyone with strong interests on inner city youth culture and crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvS78MlAXAQ

[Exiletyke]

I think you and Fire in your messages are referring to a real but hugely overblown problem media reporting wise that bears little resemblance to the deeper issues on black kids and knife crime.

Akala is a hugely eloquent expert on this whole topic, black culture, underclass and crime, and if you’re interested in explanations for such phenomena here he is outlining his ideas to Piers Morgan. I chose this issue as I think Piers tends to share your opinions on this and is not slow to shoot down waffly lefty academics. But even he was fascinated by Akala’s discussion on the real causes of youth crime and the relationship of black culture to it. Recommend it to anyone with strong interests on inner city youth culture and crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvS78MlAXAQ

I don't know if you saw Good Morning Britain this morning
If you didn't pick it up on catch up
A retired Ofsted head was there to defend the school & a young leader of the Muslim community who kept repeating that the teachings of the school were not in accordance with the teachings of Islam & would not budge from that view & that his objection was that there had been no dialogue with the parents of Muslim children When asked if there had been would he have shifted his view
I'll leave you to watch

Good luck with your quest you'll certainly need it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVnBKCzpMqY

[ragingpup]

I don't know if you saw Good Morning Britain this morning
If you didn't pick it up on catch up
A retired Ofsted head was there to defend the school & a young leader of the Muslim community who kept repeating that the teachings of the school were not in accordance with the teachings of Islam & would not budge from that view & that his objection was that there had been no dialogue with the parents of Muslim children When asked if there had been would he have shifted his view
I'll leave you to watch

Good luck with your quest you'll certainly need it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVnBKCzpMqY

I'll watch that later. As far as I am concerned English kids should attend the whole of the national curriculum as prep for a life living and working in the UK. I'm quite happy for parents that don't agree with this to leave.

Its not only a challenge for schools it's for whole community programmes. It will happen, albeit it will take several generations. Kids will move through the process, have kids, pass on etc.

Happy to hear any solutions you have to put forward?

[Exiletyke]

Insist with a typically unbritish stance that our laws should be observed just like the "guard" in the Dubai mosque that I referred to previously because you cannot negotiate & have a meaningful dialogue with those who are so governed by a medieval creed & who have no intention of giving one inch on their stance

[ragingpup]

Insist with a typically unbritish stance that our laws should be observed just like the "guard" in the Dubai mosque that I referred to previously because you cannot negotiate & have a meaningful dialogue with those who are so governed by a medieval creed & who have no intention of giving one inch on their stance

Isn't that what I'm suggesting re the school?

Not sure what point you're making. Sorry I'm thick. Ask Kerr.

[Exiletyke]

Isn't that what I'm suggesting re the school?

Not sure what point you're making. Sorry I'm thick. Ask Kerr.

No it isn't what you're suggesting
Did you watch the programme?
Tell me if you think you could have any dialogue with the spokesman from the Muslim community that would result in them accepting LGBT lessons in Allum Rock
Have those parents taken their kids out of school/lessons on LGBT?

[ragingpup]

No it isn't what you're suggesting
Did you watch the programme?
Tell me if you think you could have any dialogue with the spokesman from the Muslim community that would result in them accepting LGBT lessons in Allum Rock
Have those parents taken their kids out of school/lessons on LGBT?

Not watched it yet. But I know the kind of person you mean and I've had many meetings with similar parents down here objecting to our programme. You can't change the more exteme like this but I don't compromise and they have to take their kids elsewhere. As most colleges have to run British values programmes, they probably didn't get far so prob took their poor kids out of education. Can't do that in schools. But we can't compromise with such extreme views. If they want to like in the UK, their kids have to attend UK schools and UK schools are right to have programmes promoting acceptance and tolerance. So he would have to move to a different country.