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Thread: O/T Jeremy corbyn

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanChaiMiller View Post
    The motor industry is going through a tough time. There is a huge investment needed to change to electric engines. Many alliances being formed to offset development cost.

    The evidence is starting to build that manufacturers are leaving the UK. Investment in UK car industry is down 80%. Maybe not all be down to Brexit - but it is a factor (you cant ignore what the likes of Honda and Toyota are saying). Its a clear sign they are not looking to develop new models over here.

    Given we have a highly skilled workforce why do you think they are ignoring Britain?

    Its mounting up. Banking, Insurance, Steel, Aircraft, Cars, JCB, Dyson - all re positioning away from Britain. I think its worrying times.
    They are looking away from here because they can pay skilled workers a pittance compared to the UK , it's that simple .

    This is my point about globalisation killing the working class .

    The costs of production will fall but will you see the price of a new Honda fall in the UK , no you won't , that reduction in cost will benefit the boardroom and nobody else .

    Can't you see the game here that's played out ? , the distribution of wealth , more for those at the top whilst skilled workers are left to work in another Amazon DC .

  2. #22
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    I haven't voted Labour since he became leader.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by animallittle3 View Post
    They are looking away from here because they can pay skilled workers a pittance compared to the UK , it's that simple .

    This is my point about globalisation killing the working class .

    The costs of production will fall but will you see the price of a new Honda fall in the UK , no you won't , that reduction in cost will benefit the boardroom and nobody else .

    Can't you see the game here that's played out ? , the distribution of wealth , more for those at the top whilst skilled workers are left to work in another Amazon DC .
    I can see exactly what you are saying (and will still answer the question you posed on the other thread).

    I just dont see how leaving the EU changes the underlaying situation you describe.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanChaiMiller View Post
    I can see exactly what you are saying (and will still answer the question you posed on the other thread).

    I just dont see how leaving the EU changes the underlaying situation you describe.
    Because freedom of movement is complicit in creating the Amazons of this world coming here and paying buttons an hour .

    At least if Toyota and Honda take their production elsewhere which you can't stop then the Amazons coming in to replace these skilled jobs don't have the benefits of a huge cheap labour market .

    So the price of that labour increases and is relatively comparable with the jobs we've lost .

    At the end of the day I don't care who makes what or who comes here but what I do care about is the distribution of wealth and the working class getting a fair slice of it .

    This isn't about me this is about my grandkids and their ability to work and prosper and have the opportunities previous generations were able to obtain .

    I was able to purchase a house relatively comfortably on a living wage back in the day , have savings , go on holiday , go out at the weekend .

    Unthinkable for my 18 year old step daughter and her partner , we have to fill in their financial gaps just to keep a roof over their heads and pay the bills , they don't go out , don't have a car and never had a holiday together and obviously have no savings .

    This is the scenario for millions of young people today .

    An extra three or four quid an hour gives them the shot my generation had .

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by animallittle3 View Post
    Because freedom of movement is complicit in creating the Amazons of this world coming here and paying buttons an hour .

    At least if Toyota and Honda take their production elsewhere which you can't stop then the Amazons coming in to replace these skilled jobs don't have the benefits of a huge cheap labour market .

    So the price of that labour increases and is relatively comparable with the jobs we've lost .

    At the end of the day I don't care who makes what or who comes here but what I do care about is the distribution of wealth and the working class getting a fair slice of it .

    This isn't about me this is about my grandkids and their ability to work and prosper and have the opportunities previous generations were able to obtain .

    I was able to purchase a house relatively comfortably on a living wage back in the day , have savings , go on holiday , go out at the weekend .

    Unthinkable for my 18 year old step daughter and her partner , we have to fill in their financial gaps just to keep a roof over their heads and pay the bills , they don't go out , don't have a car and never had a holiday together and obviously have no savings .

    This is the scenario for millions of young people today .

    An extra three or four quid an hour gives them the shot my generation had .
    Stop talking sense animal you know it will only fall on deaf ears.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLadonOS View Post
    Stop talking sense animal you know it will only fall on deaf ears.
    I do get frustrated too with the younger working class because they fail to see the benefits of organising themselves to fight collectively just as our grandparents did , nobody was giving them owt either back then , that soon changed when they realised it was themselves who held the power .

    See how Amazon cope with their workforce on strike for a week and unable to service their customers , HGV drivers turning round and not supplying the fulfillment centres with stock .

    They'd be on their @ss in a week , take that globally too if you want , I can do globalisation too when it suits .

    Feckers would be paying a living wage quick sticks or they die on the spot .

    They'd shyte themselves for ever more after that and be more than aware that they have to play ball with the workforce or else .

  7. #27
    There's little chance of strike action on the scale you mentioned. A large part of the workforce isn't in a Union.

    Amazon wouldn't find it difficult to find new labour from the large numbers of eastern europeans in the area.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grist_To_The_Mill View Post
    There's little chance of strike action on the scale you mentioned. A large part of the workforce isn't in a Union.

    Amazon wouldn't find it difficult to find new labour from the large numbers of eastern europeans in the area.
    But my point was that they don't seek to organise themselves Grist and control their destiny if you like .

    Nobody but nobody gives the working class anything unless they are prepared to grow a pair and stand up for themselves .

    40 hour weeks , overtime enhancements and holiday pay were fought for by people who had far more to lose than today , you didn't work back then you would most likely starve to death .

    If people aren't prepared to stand together then we have to try and create the conditions in which they can prosper which is reducing cheap labour .

    That's all I'm saying Grist , just a fairer crack of the whip .

  9. #29
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    Animal - I totally agree with you but just dont see that its down to the EU or that leaving to trade globally (Farage 'we are going global') will change anything.

    I dont see house price inflation or increased utility bills (and selling off our industrial base that Big Lad discribes) as down to the EU. This is more a consequence of Thatcher neoliberal policy through the 80s.

    Low wage is a result of low productivity growth. Its been traditionally poor in the UK but almost flat lined since 2007. 10 years year of vitually zero wage inceases. It a fault of poor long term investment strategy rather than the EU.

    In that time house price continued to rise.* The gap between income and cost of housing widened - vitually impossible to pull back.* Also the credit crunch makes it harder to secure morgages.* Its too easy to blame low wages on immigrants. But there are more fundemental problems at work.

    Are you thinking that if we stop immigration it will lead to labour shortages will drive up wages? You use Amazon as an example. The problem we face is that 42% of retailers on the high street are in serious financial trouble. They are looking to shed staff rather than increase wages.

    Eastern Europeans are being exploited. The basic concept of free movement is brilliant (allows us incredible freedoms). The problem is large companies use it to exploit workers. They use agenies to recruit in their home countries. Ive heard of workers living 4 to a room in flats rented by these agencies. I see the same in the Middle East and Hong Kong. Workers brought in from low cost base countries to work in high cost economies for low wages.

    Selling off council houses had its initial benefits but long term drawbacks. Lack of house building programme led to a shortage of supply that drove house inflation. 60% of former council homes are with private landlords. I think the decision to sell off council houses changed the face and cost of UK housing forever.

    In my view Thatcher should have used North Sea Oil revenue to reinvest in our industrial base rather than close it down and use the money to pay redundancies and dole money. Instead she throw our industrial base and ulities to the wolves by ushering in an era neoliberilism. It killed off cities like Liverpool and Sheffield. It took 20 odd years to revamp these cities but the key thing is its built around services and not industry. That why so many are in low wages.

    We're not a basket case. Despite what big lad say (the EU are bleeding us dry and only there for the benefit of Germany and France) we are the 5th biggest economy with good growth through much of the period since we signed up to Maastricht in 1992 up to the credit crunch (2007).

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by animallittle3 View Post
    But my point was that they don't seek to organise themselves Grist and control their destiny if you like .

    Nobody but nobody gives the working class anything unless they are prepared to grow a pair and stand up for themselves .

    40 hour weeks , overtime enhancements and holiday pay were fought for by people who had far more to lose than today , you didn't work back then you would most likely starve to death .

    If people aren't prepared to stand together then we have to try and create the conditions in which they can prosper which is reducing cheap labour .

    That's all I'm saying Grist , just a fairer crack of the whip .
    I don’t disagree with that to be honest

  11. #31
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    Look guys its like this.

    Once we are out of the EU and we can run our country as we would like it means that every party vying to run the country would have to build a manifesto that represents how they would like the country run and with no input at all from EU law.

    This is where things would have to change. Cheap imported labour would be a thing of the past, companies would have to abide by the laws of the UK not the laws of the EU.

    Do not think for one second that any party would not want to be in charge of our country just because we left the EU. All they would do is change from what they think is best as part of the EU to what they think is best for the UK and only the UK.

    I'm sorry but I cannot see any party backing cheap labour and low taxes for business that bring nothing but hardship to the UK or they wont last very long as the ruling party of this country.

    Policies would change dramatically on all sides, it would have to implement policies that only represent the UK. If you think that is a bad thing then so be it.
    Last edited by BigLadonOS; 08-06-2019 at 12:20 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by animallittle3 View Post
    Because freedom of movement is complicit in creating the Amazons of this world coming here and paying buttons an hour .

    At least if Toyota and Honda take their production elsewhere which you can't stop then the Amazons coming in to replace these skilled jobs don't have the benefits of a huge cheap labour market .

    So the price of that labour increases and is relatively comparable with the jobs we've lost .

    At the end of the day I don't care who makes what or who comes here but what I do care about is the distribution of wealth and the working class getting a fair slice of it .

    This isn't about me this is about my grandkids and their ability to work and prosper and have the opportunities previous generations were able to obtain .

    I was able to purchase a house relatively comfortably on a living wage back in the day , have savings , go on holiday , go out at the weekend .

    Unthinkable for my 18 year old step daughter and her partner , we have to fill in their financial gaps just to keep a roof over their heads and pay the bills , they don't go out , don't have a car and never had a holiday together and obviously have no savings .

    This is the scenario for millions of young people today .

    An extra three or four quid an hour gives them the shot my generation had .
    I completely sympathise with your thinking behind this Animal. But I agree with much of Wan's reply.

    There is a huge assumption that if we simply take away migrant workers coming over to work for low pay, that employers will respond by upping their pay to attract UK workers. I don't think that they would. I think that under our current 'skin it to the bone, maximise profits mentality leading to poor working terms and then low productivity, we would see employers respond by:

    1. Import immigrant workers from rest of the world areas, as they do already despite us having complete control over their immigration.

    2. Maintain low wages and work with the No Deal government (who you are absolutely right in saying that they have no interest in worker's welfares - the lowering of worker/environment protections is, for many of them, their whole reason for a No Deal exit) to force UK workers currently on benefits (including sick/disability) into working for these companies on the lower terms. this will obviously please our resident frothing Sun/Mail/Express readers on many levels!

    I wish leaving the EU was likely to produce these benefits but without a change of political mindset, it's not possible.

    If you think that the employers who pay poor wages have it in them to pay more to encourage UK workers to take the jobs, why not simply forget the EU red herring and focus on improving the minimum wage so that the UK work force have greater financial imperative to take these jobs. Better wages+conditions = higher productivity = profits = economy.

  13. #33
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    And skills shortages when the tories have priced training / degrees out of the range of many and even then debt for life.

    Train our kids - provide incentives for skill needs.

    The skills shortages are a direct fault of tory policy. Untill we all live in places like Page Hall and Eastwood - virtually no go areas can people think open borders are a good idea. Live there for a week and those that want freedom of movement will change their mind.

    May calling for a reduction in college fees shows how weak the tories are. Labour is suffering from the media propaganda machine that is dragging Labour down as well. The difference is the tories have earned there position but Labours position is only media / headline speak. The young arn't that gullible and will see straight through the media via social media sources. Like Boris's 350 million court case was a political red herring - the antisemitic smokescreen is driven from the right wing of politics. All a slur campaign to level the playing field and take the spotlight from the tory shambles.....BBC / Question time shown for what it is.....a great big propaganda machine.

  14. #34
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    Regarding Corbyn, I respect that he is probably alone in trying to hold the line on honouring the referendum by negotiating a deal, but it is increasingly looking like a unicorn in itself. Most labour members I know are pulling their hair out that he won't fall behind remain as we increasingly have the frothing army clamour for an undemocratic No Deal. I still can't bring myself to back Remain, and still haven't and argue this position but with less heart every day.

    The FullFact article I linked to a couple of days ago works from polls and predicts that under current voting patters, Corbyn would win an election called in current voting patterns but it would be a slim minority government and would require teaming up with LIb Dems and Greens. It argues that falling behind Remain, looking at switching patterns of voters lost to Labour to other parties, for very 1 voter lost to Leave, we are losing 3 to pro-remain parties. And so, if Labour supported Remain, it would win a majority government if nothing else changes with Tories and Brexit Party.

    On a wider level, I would like Corbyn to stand down but only if we can find a powerful successor that can maintain the manifsto movements of 2017 and make the powerful economic case against Tory policies. He has too much easy baggage for the right to target and persuade floating voters that he is 'anti-British/anti-semitic' etc. And keeping Abbot so high up is baffling to me. I would like a change but a natural successor isn't easy to see.

  15. #35
    The north voted overwhelmingly for brexit.

    The Labour heartland is the north.

    It makes no sense for Labour to side with remain.

    Votes are draining away from them.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grist_To_The_Mill View Post
    The north voted overwhelmingly for brexit.

    The Labour heartland is the north.

    It makes no sense for Labour to side with remain.

    Votes are draining away from them.
    But as the FullFact article says, for every 1 labour voter lost to the BP, we are losing 3 to Lib Dems/Greens. Votes are indeed draining away from us.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragingpup View Post
    But as the FullFact article says, for every 1 labour voter lost to the BP, we are losing 3 to Lib Dems/Greens. Votes are indeed draining away from us.
    Not around Rotherham and Barnsley raging and I suspect not in the brexit heartlands .

    The Labour vote went to the Brexit Party massively .

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ragingpup View Post
    But as the FullFact article says, for every 1 labour voter lost to the BP, we are losing 3 to Lib Dems/Greens. Votes are indeed draining away from us.
    In the long run I think most folks know that the Lib Dems and Greens are incapable of forming a credible government.

    The point remains that at a time when the tories are in disarray and austerity has hit hard (disproportionately in the north) that Labour should be streets ahead in the polls.

  19. #39
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    Most comments are based on information spoon fed via the media.

    The truth is out there if you look.

    But reiterate the half truth and lies enough (following EU instructions) and even the most sensible individual is swayed - it's brainwashing. The Germans invented propaganda and the nazis paid US marketing experts initially. The same Germany has mastered the art and controlling our media to keep us in Europe. JC has played a straight bat and not baled out the tories. He politics are astute if seen without the media misleading the public. The debate is not JC is actually saying.....it's about how the media are reporting what JC is saying.

    Separate the truth from the hype and you're going to see the light.

    It's a big ask to see the truth as the best propaganda machine in world history is controlling every aspect of this whole subject. DYOR.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by animallittle3 View Post
    Not around Rotherham and Barnsley raging and I suspect not in the brexit heartlands .

    The Labour vote went to the Brexit Party massively .
    I agree animal. But if you're in the Labour Party, you can't just focus on these areas as the majority of the support is spread around the country and much of it in non industrial working class territory. We have to look at the facts, and the facts are that the vast majority of Labour supporters around the country who are defecting over Brexit are defecting to pro-Remain parties.

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