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Thread: If Gove was a remoaner he’d want another vote!

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by mickd1961 View Post
    I see the German lady who’s been given one of the top jobs is the second most hated politician in her own country and mixed up in some sort of scandal,financial I believe.

    The non German and French countries are furious about being shut out of the top jobs,even Junker is saying how undemocratic the process has become.

    Federalism is an absolute joke,it’s like “Animal Farm” in that all countries are supposed to be equal but some are more equal than others.

    There’s nothing wrong with the Common Market as was,trading on equal terms always made great sense but the EU is a corrupt cesspit in its present form.

    Even if it takes us a bit of time to regain our equilibrium after Brexit I can see others following suit once they realise it can be done.
    And us Leavers are accused of not knowing what we voted for. Who voted this lady in? What's her agenda? Where does she want the EU to be in 5 years. Any Remainers care to tell me?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9goals2hattricks3pen View Post
    And us Leavers are accused of not knowing what we voted for. Who voted this lady in? What's her agenda? Where does she want the EU to be in 5 years. Any Remainers care to tell me?
    you answered your own question 9 2 3 she’s German.as we all know but some refuse to believe they run the gravy train .

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9goals2hattricks3pen View Post
    And us Leavers are accused of not knowing what we voted for. Who voted this lady in? What's her agenda? Where does she want the EU to be in 5 years. Any Remainers care to tell me?
    According to Andrew Neil she’s a massive Federalist 923 and wants to see Europe as one massive state with its own army and all of the other bells and whistles!

    People like 123 and dear old friend Kettering are happy to see us ruled by unelected zealots.

    Preposterous nonsense.

    Surrender monkey mentality.

    Have a feel around the rear of your body guys.......see if there’s any trace of a backbone!

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickd1961 View Post
    I see the German lady who’s been given one of the top jobs is the second most hated politician in her own country and mixed up in some sort of scandal,financial I believe.

    The non German and French countries are furious about being shut out of the top jobs,even Junker is saying how undemocratic the process has become.

    Federalism is an absolute joke,it’s like “Animal Farm” in that all countries are supposed to be equal but some are more equal than others.

    There’s nothing wrong with the Common Market as was,trading on equal terms always made great sense but the EU is a corrupt cesspit in its present form.

    Even if it takes us a bit of time to regain our equilibrium after Brexit I can see others following suit once they realise it can be done.
    Indeed, the Common Market is and was a good idea, but the way the EU are heading now, (what eg Macron wants) the federalist way with EU taxation, EU army etc, etc, is the wrong way.

    But I am sad that we (Sweden) may lose a powerful ally in opposing this, we often sided with GB on these matters (often together with the so called Visegrad countries, eg Poland).

    And there might and ought to be a way of fighting this as a member rather than to bail out?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishBaggie View Post
    Indeed, the Common Market is and was a good idea, but the way the EU are heading now, (what eg Macron wants) the federalist way with EU taxation, EU army etc, etc, is the wrong way.

    But I am sad that we (Sweden) may lose a powerful ally in opposing this, we often sided with GB on these matters (often together with the so called Visegrad countries, eg Poland).

    And there might and ought to be a way of fighting this as a member rather than to bail out?
    What’s the state of the political wind in Sweden and across Scandinavia at present Tomas?

    I’ve a lot of time for the countries in your region and Sweden in particular and you always seem a very stable and level headed country.

    Is there a more Nationalistic feeling in your region at present or anybody pushing for Swexit ?

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickd1961 View Post
    What’s the state of the political wind in Sweden and across Scandinavia at present Tomas?

    I’ve a lot of time for the countries in your region and Sweden in particular and you always seem a very stable and level headed country.

    Is there a more Nationalistic feeling in your region at present or anybody pushing for Swexit ?
    No majority for Swexit as it is now Mick, though many are skeptic of the federalist way of the EU.

    Def more nationalistic feelings portrayed by that right wing parties with xenophobic agendas are on the rise, sadly.

    Though all in all, those in power and politicians in general, live their own lives alienated from that of ordinary people, seeing to their own best and benefits. Not that far from GB and the EU maybe?

  7. #87
    That 2 countries as different to each other are in anyway one is for me just one absurdity of this supposed Union. One is very law abiding , pays its taxes, has little corruption,cares well for its cityzens, has a strong economy, is well thought of internationally and perhaps most importantly has lots of pretty girls. The other is a country in Scandanavia.

    Only joking SB but I am serious as to why anyone thinks it a good idea to 'link' two such diverse coutries. Vive la difference I say.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9goals2hattricks3pen View Post
    That 2 countries as different to each other are in anyway one is for me just one absurdity of this supposed Union. One is very law abiding , pays its taxes, has little corruption,cares well for its cityzens, has a strong economy, is well thought of internationally and perhaps most importantly has lots of pretty girls. The other is a country in Scandanavia.

    Only joking SB but I am serious as to why anyone thinks it a good idea to 'link' two such diverse coutries. Vive la difference I say.
    The EU is a stupid idea. Linking 27 countries and trying to make them the same when there are clear differences. We all have different needs and wants. That's what makes us all interesting. Countries can be friends you know. It makes the diplomats earn their money to show respect.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by boingy View Post
    The EU is a stupid idea. Linking 27 countries and trying to make them the same when there are clear differences. We all have different needs and wants. That's what makes us all interesting. Countries can be friends you know. It makes the diplomats earn their money to show respect.
    I think there are clear differences within countries too, as well as similarities between countries. No such thing as a ”homogeneous country”.

    There are probably more similaraties between me and certain Britons, than to some of my fellow countrymen.

  10. #90
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    True Swedish. I wouldn't want to change anything you were happy with. The EU however has other ideas. Take the move toward a European army for example. What happens if a country within the EU decides that the country the EU wants to attack they don't agree with? The world is a big place, and as we have seen the EU gets countries to re vote if they don't agree with their decision as in the cases of Ireland/Denmark and the Netherlands. That is a dictatorship. A dictatorship in a velvet glove.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9goals2hattricks3pen View Post
    And I will try and make my position clear for you and anyone else remotely interested.

    Federal Europe, Superstate. You don't think it will happen I think it might. Who knows. If it did would you want in or out?

    Ireland. I have heard a few say technological solutions exist. Never heard anyone categorically state they don't. So I think they probably do. Of the 28 I believe only 2 have any real interest on what happens on the Irish border. So why is it so important? It's because it gives the EU the opportunity to cause confusion and make difficulties for the UK. Their intransigence and our incompetence has played perfectly into their hands. The EU are desperate for us to remain and their fervent hope is that we do so they can continue taking in our billions and have free access to OUR massive market.

    I'll say again I now believe the best way for us to get a good deal is to leave without a deal. It would be hugely advantageous for the EU to have a good deal with the UK after Brexit so a deal should be a gimmee. Unless of course you believe like I do the Politics are more important to the EU than the Economics.

    The EU (or Germany as it is otherwise known) did not unite behind Greece they massively contributed towards the problem. If Greece had been stand alone they would have had to face up their problems much earlier. But Germany continued to pour money in (and profited from doing so) until the situation became unsustainable. Greece then had to do what Germany dictated. It's a bit like me have lots of credit card debt and trying to solve it by raising limits and getting more cards. For this situation to arise it required an irresponsible borrower (Greece) and an irresponsible lender (Germany.)
    I present this analysis not as a matter of opinion but as a matter of fact but please feel free to disagree.

    Italy. The EU got thro the Greek problem (so far) by the skin of its teeth. Two things are very different. The Italian debt is 10 times bigger so I don't see how Germany can manage this time. Also there is so much more anti EU feeling around now than 10 years go. I can't envisage your average EU cityzen being happy to want to bail out Italy. Can you?

    There is one common denominator. In both cases you have a weak economy and a strong currency. How on earth does that work? It doesn't! It massively contibutes towards the problem. For me the EU is a totally flawed concept that will fall apart and whilst we can't protect totally ourselves from the fall out the further and sooner we are away from it we are the better.

    The Gravy Train is heading for the buffers. Let's get out of the way.
    IRELAND
    I'm not saying a solution doesn't exist, I'm saying I don't know of a solution. My prediction is this is what the EU have stated too, and now they are being accused of being difficult and causing confusion. Ultimately, we had politicians who told us it wouldn't be an issue pre referendum, but they have no solution either - or there would be a plan written down that could be scrutinised, and there isn't.

    LEAVING WITH NO DEAL
    In my opinion would be a disaster. Nobody knows for sure what will happen but lets try and predict the consequences...
    More than 50% of what we import comes from the EU and we would have to put tariffs on everything. Tariffs inevitably get passed onto the final consumer. We wouldn't be able to give the EU tariff free access to our market, without giving the rest of the world the same deal - this is one of the WTO 'Most favoured nation' rules. So of course the EU could apply any tariffs they like to our products, that's not them being difficult, that is now their right -to protect their industries.

    So, scenario #1; we tariff everything coming in from the EU by 20/30% or whatever that figure might be, then the EU would almost certainly do the same to our exports to them (46% of our exports go to the EU) would then be 20/30% more expensive (or whatever tariff they choose to apply). The current estimate is that 3-4 million UK jobs are linked with being benefited by the Single Market. They would all be under threat.

    Scenario #2; We keep it similar to how we trade with the EU now - tariff free, which would then apply to the rest of the world as per the WTO rule above, and would lead to our market being flooded by cheap foreign imports and our home based industries wouldn't be protected.

    Not to mention the delays that will inevitably happen at port immediately after No Deal. Everything coming in from the EU will need to be checked, and the correct tariff needed to apply. This is time consuming and quite frankly we don't have the manpower at the ports to do that.

    So the best case scenario in either option above, is either we pay an extra 20/30% for 50% of what we currently buy. Or we are flooded by cheap foreign imports and more UK jobs go to the wall.

    The worst case scenario doesn't really bear thinking about. We are not a self sufficient nation (we import the majority of our food. This has been the case for decades, and why we had rations in the war). Pharmaceuticals and perishables could easily get stuck at the border. Shelves are empty at supermarkets. People die because they are not receiving their life saving pharmaceuticals in time. And of course, more UK jobs go to the wall in either scenario either because of cheap foreign imports or the extra tariffs that will apply to our exporting market to the EU.

    BENEFITS
    It seems to me the main benefits for you to leave the EU is that we can negotiate our own trade deals, I have my misgivings about that because we have less bargaining power as a country of 60m consumers than a union of 500m. And that Italy are in debt.

    For me, truthfully, I can't see one single benefit of leaving the EU. Not one.

    CHEESE
    I know you said not to get wrapped up in the cheese thing, but one thing that did strike me is this. Your friend the cheesemaker is hoping for Brexit so a trade deal can be made with the US because of the high tariffs. But Brexit risks higher tariffs from the EU who will be trying to protect European cheesemakers. The US has 325m consumers, is 20+ days away by boat and has higher shipping costs. The EU is 1 day away, has cheaper shipping costs and has a larger market. Geography and numbers are very important for trade. Logic hasn't prevailed for your friend.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9goals2hattricks3pen View Post
    And I will try and make my position clear for you and anyone else remotely interested.

    Federal Europe, Superstate. You don't think it will happen I think it might. Who knows. If it did would you want in or out?

    Ireland. I have heard a few say technological solutions exist. Never heard anyone categorically state they don't. So I think they probably do. Of the 28 I believe only 2 have any real interest on what happens on the Irish border. So why is it so important? It's because it gives the EU the opportunity to cause confusion and make difficulties for the UK. Their intransigence and our incompetence has played perfectly into their hands. The EU are desperate for us to remain and their fervent hope is that we do so they can continue taking in our billions and have free access to OUR massive market.

    I'll say again I now believe the best way for us to get a good deal is to leave without a deal. It would be hugely advantageous for the EU to have a good deal with the UK after Brexit so a deal should be a gimmee. Unless of course you believe like I do the Politics are more important to the EU than the Economics.

    The EU (or Germany as it is otherwise known) did not unite behind Greece they massively contributed towards the problem. If Greece had been stand alone they would have had to face up their problems much earlier. But Germany continued to pour money in (and profited from doing so) until the situation became unsustainable. Greece then had to do what Germany dictated. It's a bit like me have lots of credit card debt and trying to solve it by raising limits and getting more cards. For this situation to arise it required an irresponsible borrower (Greece) and an irresponsible lender (Germany.)
    I present this analysis not as a matter of opinion but as a matter of fact but please feel free to disagree.

    Italy. The EU got thro the Greek problem (so far) by the skin of its teeth. Two things are very different. The Italian debt is 10 times bigger so I don't see how Germany can manage this time. Also there is so much more anti EU feeling around now than 10 years go. I can't envisage your average EU cityzen being happy to want to bail out Italy. Can you?

    There is one common denominator. In both cases you have a weak economy and a strong currency. How on earth does that work? It doesn't! It massively contibutes towards the problem. For me the EU is a totally flawed concept that will fall apart and whilst we can't protect totally ourselves from the fall out the further and sooner we are away from it we are the better.

    The Gravy Train is heading for the buffers. Let's get out of the way.
    There are a couple of things that really irk me. Our RW press, who are hugely responsible for this current political mess we find ourselves in, like to portray words in a negative light like the ones below:

    'Federal Europe'
    Here is the meaning of what 'Federal' actually means:
    "having or relating to a system of government in which several states form a unity but remain independent in internal affairs"
    What is so bad about that? We unite, for trade predominantly, because we can receive more concessions trading as a bloc than individually, we also make trade easier between us giving our EU home based industries a head start.
    Mick, this has directly benefited your business, you've previously stated you trade with the EU.

    'The EU is protectionist'
    Good. So it should be. So should every responsible state or country protect its own industries and jobs first. UK industry is there for the taking right now, tens of thousands of jobs have been lost since the referendum are Brexit linked. Do you really have faith on a bloke who recently said "F--- Business" to protect our industry?

    'The EU is unelected'
    We elect European MEP's. In any democracy some positions are appointed. In the UK we don't elect the head of the Civil Service, or the head of the Police Force. We elect MP's but we don't appoint members of the cabinet.
    This new EU president is nominated by the European Council (The EC are appointed by the national heads of government, who are democratically elected) and that has to be approved by the MEPs (who are democratically elected).
    Is that any less democratic than Boris Johnson becoming PM? Who received 23,000 votes to become an MP in Uxbridge and is now being voted for by 125,000 members of the Tory party? To lead a country of 60m+

    All of the EU constitution is available to read online, rather than in our gutter press. It is actually written down in a treaty, which the UK has had input into, had influenced, signed and agreed to.

    Now then, any danger of a Farage or Johnson writing down their plan, treaty or anything at all? Of course the answer is no, because they have bluffed their way to this position and anything they put in writing will be srutinised. So, expect more bluffing and posturing to come...
    Last edited by WBA123; 14-07-2019 at 07:29 AM.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickd1961 View Post
    According to Andrew Neil she’s a massive Federalist 923 and wants to see Europe as one massive state with its own army and all of the other bells and whistles!

    People like 123 and dear old friend Kettering are happy to see us ruled by unelected zealots.

    Preposterous nonsense.

    Surrender monkey mentality.

    Have a feel around the rear of your body guys.......see if there’s any trace of a backbone!
    Ah yes, 'Backbone'...

    Next you'll be saying all we need to do is have 'belief' and be 'positive'. I love it when Brexiteers say that.

    Out of interest Mick, as a business owner yourself, do you make sensible and calculated business decisions? Or do you just solely rely on backbone and of course, positive thinking?

    Out of interest, because we want to increase trade, who are we surrendering to? The problem with the over 50's and why the majority voted to Leave, is because they think this is linked to the war in some way. That's why you are using rhetoric like 'surrendering'. It isn't. It has nothing to do with that.

  14. #94
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    None of the above is better than independence. The freedom to choose. We had that with the common market. This is the EU a perverse animal at best. You or any of your EU friends wouldn't be happy if I told you that any decisions you make have to be agreed on by all the neighbours in your street, or a majority. It simply is ridiculous. Your family knows what your family needs. You can be good mates with your neighbours but when they poke their nose into your business and tell you how to spend your money it's time to bid them farewell

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by boingy View Post
    None of the above is better than independence. The freedom to choose. We had that with the common market. This is the EU a perverse animal at best. You or any of your EU friends wouldn't be happy if I told you that any decisions you make have to be agreed on by all the neighbours in your street, or a majority. It simply is ridiculous. Your family knows what your family needs. You can be good mates with your neighbours but when they poke their nose into your business and tell you how to spend your money it's time to bid them farewell
    . F#cking ell boingy yoh doe arf spake sum coming sence.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by boingy View Post
    None of the above is better than independence. The freedom to choose. We had that with the common market. This is the EU a perverse animal at best. You or any of your EU friends wouldn't be happy if I told you that any decisions you make have to be agreed on by all the neighbours in your street, or a majority. It simply is ridiculous. Your family knows what your family needs. You can be good mates with your neighbours but when they poke their nose into your business and tell you how to spend your money it's time to bid them farewell
    Boingy.........after years of debate on all media and on here you’ve summed it up brilliantly.

    Such a fantastic analogy.

    #Inanutshell

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by boingy View Post
    None of the above is better than independence. The freedom to choose. We had that with the common market. This is the EU a perverse animal at best. You or any of your EU friends wouldn't be happy if I told you that any decisions you make have to be agreed on by all the neighbours in your street, or a majority. It simply is ridiculous. Your family knows what your family needs. You can be good mates with your neighbours but when they poke their nose into your business and tell you how to spend your money it's time to bid them farewell

    After all the yawn yawn bulls hit - a great post Boingy.

    You have summed it up and it’s as simple as 123. Des said don’t argue with a fool but this fool is a repetitive loser who has a political grudge - perhaps failing his Politics A Level or he thinks he’s politically savvy with communications with his chums on the East Coast - well that cant be hard!! 😂😂
    Last edited by baggieal; 14-07-2019 at 02:19 PM.

  18. #98
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    I wonder whether the people in the article linked below.........

    https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001016.htm

    ........ would have bothered if they'd have known what the internet was going to be used for .

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by boingy View Post
    None of the above is better than independence. The freedom to choose. We had that with the common market. This is the EU a perverse animal at best. You or any of your EU friends wouldn't be happy if I told you that any decisions you make have to be agreed on by all the neighbours in your street, or a majority. It simply is ridiculous. Your family knows what your family needs. You can be good mates with your neighbours but when they poke their nose into your business and tell you how to spend your money it's time to bid them farewell
    I don't expect a few posts on here by me will change anyone's thinking process. I'm just giving everyone a different slant on things. The majority of people on here are 50+ and have had 20+ years of RW media rhetoric about being 'shackled' to the 'Federalist' and 'unelected bureaucrats' of the EU.

    What the Leave campaign have done is very effective, with their meaningless slogans.

    But independence from what? We make 99% of our own laws and the only ones we don't are predominantly linked to Trade and Human Rights...

    We can leave the EU tomorrow, without a deal if we so choose to. Its only because our MPs realise how awful that scenario will be if we do which is why we aren't.


    "You or any of your EU friends wouldn't be happy if I told you that any decisions you make have to be agreed on by all the neighbours in your street, or a majority"

    This analogy is flawed, because this is exactly the system we have in the UK. Do you not think this is exactly what Westminster is? Where does it end....independence for the West Midlands? Independence for Rowley Regis?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by WBA123 View Post
    IRELAND
    I'm not saying a solution doesn't exist, I'm saying I don't know of a solution. My prediction is this is what the EU have stated too, and now they are being accused of being difficult and causing confusion. Ultimately, we had politicians who told us it wouldn't be an issue pre referendum, but they have no solution either - or there would be a plan written down that could be scrutinised, and there isn't.

    LEAVING WITH NO DEAL
    In my opinion would be a disaster. Nobody knows for sure what will happen but lets try and predict the consequences...
    More than 50% of what we import comes from the EU and we would have to put tariffs on everything. Tariffs inevitably get passed onto the final consumer. We wouldn't be able to give the EU tariff free access to our market, without giving the rest of the world the same deal - this is one of the WTO 'Most favoured nation' rules. So of course the EU could apply any tariffs they like to our products, that's not them being difficult, that is now their right -to protect their industries.

    So, scenario #1; we tariff everything coming in from the EU by 20/30% or whatever that figure might be, then the EU would almost certainly do the same to our exports to them (46% of our exports go to the EU) would then be 20/30% more expensive (or whatever tariff they choose to apply). The current estimate is that 3-4 million UK jobs are linked with being benefited by the Single Market. They would all be under threat.

    Scenario #2; We keep it similar to how we trade with the EU now - tariff free, which would then apply to the rest of the world as per the WTO rule above, and would lead to our market being flooded by cheap foreign imports and our home based industries wouldn't be protected.

    Not to mention the delays that will inevitably happen at port immediately after No Deal. Everything coming in from the EU will need to be checked, and the correct tariff needed to apply. This is time consuming and quite frankly we don't have the manpower at the ports to do that.

    So the best case scenario in either option above, is either we pay an extra 20/30% for 50% of what we currently buy. Or we are flooded by cheap foreign imports and more UK jobs go to the wall.

    The worst case scenario doesn't really bear thinking about. We are not a self sufficient nation (we import the majority of our food. This has been the case for decades, and why we had rations in the war). Pharmaceuticals and perishables could easily get stuck at the border. Shelves are empty at supermarkets. People die because they are not receiving their life saving pharmaceuticals in time. And of course, more UK jobs go to the wall in either scenario either because of cheap foreign imports or the extra tariffs that will apply to our exporting market to the EU.

    BENEFITS
    It seems to me the main benefits for you to leave the EU is that we can negotiate our own trade deals, I have my misgivings about that because we have less bargaining power as a country of 60m consumers than a union of 500m. And that Italy are in debt.

    For me, truthfully, I can't see one single benefit of leaving the EU. Not one.

    CHEESE
    I know you said not to get wrapped up in the cheese thing, but one thing that did strike me is this. Your friend the cheesemaker is hoping for Brexit so a trade deal can be made with the US because of the high tariffs. But Brexit risks higher tariffs from the EU who will be trying to protect European cheesemakers. The US has 325m consumers, is 20+ days away by boat and has higher shipping costs. The EU is 1 day away, has cheaper shipping costs and has a larger market. Geography and numbers are very important for trade. Logic hasn't prevailed for your friend.
    CHEESE. If you want to go on believing you have a better understanding of the future of cheese exports than the Operastions Director of a Cheesemaker then please carry on.

    Once again 123 you ask questions but don't provide answers. As you haven't challenged my assertions that

    Germany didn't aid Greece it massively contributed to the crisis

    The EU wont be able to bail out Italy. The problem is too big.

    It's perverse to have a weak economy and strong currency

    That it desirable for the EU to get a good deal so to negotiate one shouldn't be difficult unless politics comes before economics.

    I will assume you accept them all as valid.

    As you defend Fedralism I assume you would be content to see the UK as part of a United States of Europe. Ther is one ever so crucial word in your defence and that is INTERNAL. What about EXTERNAL affairs.

    A Federal State would have
    1 Leader (not British)
    1 Currency
    1 Army
    1 Foreign Policy
    and I reckon lots of other powers.

    If you are happy with the UK as a Federal State I have a much better idea that aligning us with the 27 EU countries the majority of which we have nothing whatsoever in common with. We become the 51st state of America. Care to argue against that we much more in common with our Amercan Cousins than we do with Romanians, Bulgars, the Baltic states or indeed any of them.

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