If Gove was a remoaner he’d want another vote!

[WBA123]

CHEESE. If you want to go on believing you have a better understanding of the future of cheese exports than the Operastions Director of a Cheesemaker then please carry on.

Once again 123 you ask questions but don't provide answers. As you haven't challenged my assertions that

Germany didn't aid Greece it massively contributed to the crisis

The EU wont be able to bail out Italy. The problem is too big.

It's perverse to have a weak economy and strong currency

That it desirable for the EU to get a good deal so to negotiate one shouldn't be difficult unless politics comes before economics.

I will assume you accept them all as valid.

As you defend Fedralism I assume you would be content to see the UK as part of a United States of Europe. Ther is one ever so crucial word in your defence and that is INTERNAL. What about EXTERNAL affairs.

A Federal State would have
1 Leader (not British)
1 Currency
1 Army
1 Foreign Policy
and I reckon lots of other powers.

If you are happy with the UK as a Federal State I have a much better idea that aligning us with the 27 EU countries the majority of which we have nothing whatsoever in common with. We become the 51st state of America. Care to argue against that we much more in common with our Amercan Cousins than we do with Romanians, Bulgars, the Baltic states or indeed any of them.

Although I've never worked in the perishable trade, I probably do know a bit more about international supply chains than the Ops Director. Just being honest. But even if I didn't, the numbers still don't stack up...

I do disagree with most of your points, apart from the one where you said unless politics comes before economics...that has happened all throughout this process. If it was purely economics we wouldn't be leaving. Every respected and impartial economic export says we'll be worse off for leaving and that a No Deal scenario would be the worst outcome for us.

Whilst we are still in the EU for the time being we have scope to shape the type of EU we want. The EU often joins forces to condemn or pressure other regions/countries because we are stronger united in doing it. It is exactly what we are doing with Iran nuclear enrichment programme right now, joining forces with Germany and France.

"The United States of Europe"
It's clear you are concerned about us losing our national identity. I'm not. But there is already a currency as you know, which we have opted out of having. There is already a president of the EU, which we have a democratic say in appointing. One other thing you may be overlooking, we have a veto. If we are not happy with anything that is put forward such as an EU army, we can veto it.

I've never said the EU are perfect, and they have their issues. But is it anywhere near as bad as our parliament? I don't think so. I just don't see how we would inflict this type of self harm upon us, because Italy are in so much debt or because there might be an EU army, for which we have a veto. Or because Europeans come over here and pay their taxes.

I find it amazing we are in this position, I find it more amazing how Leavers aren't holding their own politicians, who promised so much pre referendum, to account.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

Although I've never worked in the perishable trade, I probably do know a bit more about international supply chains than the Ops Director. Just being honest. But even if I didn't, the numbers still don't stack up...

I do disagree with most of your points, apart from the one where you said unless politics comes before economics...that has happened all throughout this process. If it was purely economics we wouldn't be leaving. Every respected and impartial economic export says we'll be worse off for leaving and that a No Deal scenario would be the worst outcome for us.

Whilst we are still in the EU for the time being we have scope to shape the type of EU we want. The EU often joins forces to condemn or pressure other regions/countries because we are stronger united in doing it. It is exactly what we are doing with Iran nuclear enrichment programme right now, joining forces with Germany and France.

"The United States of Europe"
It's clear you are concerned about us losing our national identity. I'm not. But there is already a currency as you know, which we have opted out of having. There is already a president of the EU, which we have a democratic say in appointing. One other thing you may be overlooking, we have a veto. If we are not happy with anything that is put forward such as an EU army, we can veto it.

I've never said the EU are perfect, and they have their issues. But is it anywhere near as bad as our parliament? I don't think so. I just don't see how we would inflict this type of self harm upon us, because Italy are in so much debt or because there might be an EU army, for which we have a veto. Or because Europeans come over here and pay their taxes.

I find it amazing we are in this position, I find it more amazing how Leavers aren't holding their own politicians, who promised so much pre referendum, to account.

What a cop out 123. I have made clear on a number of points why I think the EU is in trouble and all you can reply with is "I disagree" with absolutely nothing to back up why. I'd like all my questions properly answered but I'll ask just one question again.

You think it's a good idea that a country (was Greece now Italy) has a weak economy but a strong currency? Please explain why that is not perverse.

[WBA123]

What a cop out 123. I have made clear on a number of points why I think the EU is in trouble and all you can reply with is "I disagree" with absolutely nothing to back up why. I'd like all my questions properly answered but I'll ask just one question again.

You think it's a good idea that a country (was Greece now Italy) has a weak economy but a strong currency? Please explain why that is not perverse.

Pot meet Kettle.

Any solution to the Irish Border?
Your answer that there must be, but no one knows what that is yet isn't too comforting
Any criticism for Johnson, Farage for confidently claiming that Irish border wouldn't be an issue?
In fact, any criticism for the lies of any of the leading leave politicians? Things such as
- £350m to the NHS
- They need us more than we need them
- We could have our cake and eat it
- Our place in the SM wouldn't be threatened etc....
How about the overspending of the Leave campaign? Or the links to Russia? Or the fact that a leading donor to the Leave campaign is being investigated by the National Crime Agency?
Do you think EU Parliament is less democratic than the UK Parliament?
What are your thoughts on the vast majority of impartial experts who think a No Deal would be a disaster for our economy?
What are your thoughts on the UKs Dept for Exiting the EU analysis of Brexit repercussions?
Do Johnson, Farage have a plan? Why haven't they written it down in a White Paper or Provisional Treaty?
What happens to our £250bn worth of exports to the EU if we leave without a deal and the 3-4 million jobs that rely on this business in the UK?
What are your thoughts on Airbus threatening to leave the UK in the event of a No Deal? What about the thousands of jobs that have been lost in the automotive sector? The threat to our financial services industry? How about the Pharmaceutical industry, whose European HQ has moved from London to Amsterdam?
How many WTO rules do you know? How many EU Laws make any difference to your life right now?
What are your thoughts on the WTO director saying it is like the UK moving from League 1 to League 3 by trading on WTO terms?

Feel free to answer any of the above...


In terms of answering your question. Would Italy leaving the EU and having a weaker currency make any difference to them? Probably not, because they would export more outside of the EU, but would lose SM access for which the majority of their industry is reliant on. It is in their economic interest to remain a member of the EU, even if it means having a stronger currency.

What strikes me most is you putting the responsibility onto the EU for Italy & Greece's financial problems. Its not the EU's to blame that these countries had individual governments who have recklessly spent more than they should have. Your reasoning that the EU allowed Greece to get into more debt is a bit hypocritical. Imagine the furore had they have gone the other way, people would be shouting from the rooftops about how the EU was denying financial access to a member.

We still govern our countries individually whilst in the EU, we still make 99% of our own laws and decide our own social and economic policies, apart from when we need customary and regulatory alignment. The idea we should give up more than 50% of our trade, along with dozens of Trade Deals and hundreds of treaties and agreements, because Italy is in debt is not sensible.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

Pot meet Kettle.

Any solution to the Irish Border?
Your answer that there must be, but no one knows what that is yet isn't too comforting
Any criticism for Johnson, Farage for confidently claiming that Irish border wouldn't be an issue?
In fact, any criticism for the lies of any of the leading leave politicians? Things such as
- £350m to the NHS
- They need us more than we need them
- We could have our cake and eat it
- Our place in the SM wouldn't be threatened etc....
How about the overspending of the Leave campaign? Or the links to Russia? Or the fact that a leading donor to the Leave campaign is being investigated by the National Crime Agency?
Do you think EU Parliament is less democratic than the UK Parliament?
What are your thoughts on the vast majority of impartial experts who think a No Deal would be a disaster for our economy?
What are your thoughts on the UKs Dept for Exiting the EU analysis of Brexit repercussions?
Do Johnson, Farage have a plan? Why haven't they written it down in a White Paper or Provisional Treaty?
What happens to our £250bn worth of exports to the EU if we leave without a deal and the 3-4 million jobs that rely on this business in the UK?
What are your thoughts on Airbus threatening to leave the UK in the event of a No Deal? What about the thousands of jobs that have been lost in the automotive sector? The threat to our financial services industry? How about the Pharmaceutical industry, whose European HQ has moved from London to Amsterdam?
How many WTO rules do you know? How many EU Laws make any difference to your life right now?
What are your thoughts on the WTO director saying it is like the UK moving from League 1 to League 3 by trading on WTO terms?

Feel free to answer any of the above...


In terms of answering your question. Would Italy leaving the EU and having a weaker currency make any difference to them? Probably not, because they would export more outside of the EU, but would lose SM access for which the majority of their industry is reliant on. It is in their economic interest to remain a member of the EU, even if it means having a stronger currency.

What strikes me most is you putting the responsibility onto the EU for Italy & Greece's financial problems. Its not the EU's to blame that these countries had individual governments who have recklessly spent more than they should have. Your reasoning that the EU allowed Greece to get into more debt is a bit hypocritical. Imagine the furore had they have gone the other way, people would be shouting from the rooftops about how the EU was denying financial access to a member.

We still govern our countries individually whilst in the EU, we still make 99% of our own laws and decide our own social and economic policies, apart from when we need customary and regulatory alignment. The idea we should give up more than 50% of our trade, along with dozens of Trade Deals and hundreds of treaties and agreements, because Italy is in debt is not sensible.

If you care to read my previous posts you will see I have indeed answered most of the above points although you do misrepresent a lot of what I have said. For instance I have never said there must be a solution to the Irish Border problem just that there might be. I did say it would have helped had we consulted first with the both the Irish Govt. and NI polticians to which you replied "Even had she consulted them, would it really have made much difference? Interesting view point not to include those most affected. You should stand as an MEP. I've certainly covered politicians lies and how I now believe we can get a good deal.

Of course Greece was to blame for getting into the mess but Germany massively contributed to it (and prospered from it.) Like I said reckless borrower, reckless lender.

If a country has a weak economy then the tried and tested way is to devalue. Countries like Greece and Italy has a current currency that is too strong and so is increasing the problem and they can't devalue.

[SwedishBaggie]

CHEESE. If you want to go on believing you have a better understanding of the future of cheese exports than the Operastions Director of a Cheesemaker then please carry on.

Once again 123 you ask questions but don't provide answers. As you haven't challenged my assertions that

Germany didn't aid Greece it massively contributed to the crisis

The EU wont be able to bail out Italy. The problem is too big.

It's perverse to have a weak economy and strong currency

That it desirable for the EU to get a good deal so to negotiate one shouldn't be difficult unless politics comes before economics.

I will assume you accept them all as valid.

As you defend Fedralism I assume you would be content to see the UK as part of a United States of Europe. Ther is one ever so crucial word in your defence and that is INTERNAL. What about EXTERNAL affairs.

A Federal State would have
1 Leader (not British)
1 Currency
1 Army
1 Foreign Policy
and I reckon lots of other powers.

If you are happy with the UK as a Federal State I have a much better idea that aligning us with the 27 EU countries the majority of which we have nothing whatsoever in common with. We become the 51st state of America. Care to argue against that we much more in common with our Amercan Cousins than we do with Romanians, Bulgars, the Baltic states or indeed any of them.

Well, I don’t think that would be a good idea for you (51st state).

Why does Trump like and get on with Boris Johnson (apart from them both being obnoxious buffoons)?

Could it be that Johnson is Brexit and hard Brexit and Trump enjoys the idea of the EU getting weaker (which of course it would be if GB left)?

And Trump then would like to get trade deals etc with GB, and which of the two in those negotiations is the weaker part, GB or the US?

In the EU, GB are one of the most powerful players...

Just a thought. 😎

[WBA123]

If you care to read my previous posts you will see I have indeed answered most of the above points although you do misrepresent a lot of what I have said. For instance I have never said there must be a solution to the Irish Border problem just that there might be. I did say it would have helped had we consulted first with the both the Irish Govt. and NI polticians to which you replied "Even had she consulted them, would it really have made much difference? Interesting view point not to include those most affected. You should stand as an MEP. I've certainly covered politicians lies and how I now believe we can get a good deal.

Of course Greece was to blame for getting into the mess but Germany massively contributed to it (and prospered from it.) Like I said reckless borrower, reckless lender.

If a country has a weak economy then the tried and tested way is to devalue. Countries like Greece and Italy has a current currency that is too strong and so is increasing the problem and they can't devalue.

My point is, what difference would it have made to finding a solution? Even by speaking to politicians in Ireland, the problem remains the same. You can't have an invisible border with different customs and regulatory requirements on either side, without creating a smugglers paradise.

In terms of Italy, the benefit of a weak currency would be exports. But most of Italy's exports go to the EU.

Here's the latest figures I found about Italian exports;
The top export destinations of Italy are Germany $58.5B, France $48B, the United States $45B, the United Kingdom $24.9B and Spain $23.3B

So 4 of their top 5 export markets are currently in the EU. By having their own, weaker currency, they would almost certainly have to leave the EU and remove themselves from the SM, which in turn would create trade barriers with the European market. The EU would then protect their industries, as they should responsibly do. All of this is much like what we will experience when/if we leave.

So they would risk the vast majority of their exports, and therefore millions of jobs in Italy, if they were to leave the EU and have a weaker currency. It is true they might pick up more export business from the rest of the world, but would that be more viable than their current exports to the EU? I would say very doubtful. Also you would have to consider their imports would also become more expensive because of the weaker currency.

So how would that help the Italian economy?

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

Well, I don’t think that would be a good idea for you (51st state).

Why does Trump like and get on with Boris Johnson (apart from them both being obnoxious buffoons)?

Could it be that Johnson is Brexit and hard Brexit and Trump enjoys the idea of the EU getting weaker (which of course it would be if GB left)?

And Trump then would like to get trade deals etc with GB, and which of the two in those negotiations is the weaker part, GB or the US?

In the EU, GB are one of the most powerful players...

Just a thought. 😎

It wasn't a serious suggestion but if trade is the problem we sell more to the States than any EU country. Become 51st state and tariffs disappear.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

Well, I don’t think that would be a good idea for you (51st state).

Why does Trump like and get on with Boris Johnson (apart from them both being obnoxious buffoons)?

Could it be that Johnson is Brexit and hard Brexit and Trump enjoys the idea of the EU getting weaker (which of course it would be if GB left)?

And Trump then would like to get trade deals etc with GB, and which of the two in those negotiations is the weaker part, GB or the US?

In the EU, GB are one of the most powerful players...

Just a thought. 😎

I see Koppaberg have moved some production to the UK. How many other EU manufacturers might consider that a good idea.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

My point is, what difference would it have made to finding a solution? Even by speaking to politicians in Ireland, the problem remains the same. You can't have an invisible border with different customs and regulatory requirements on either side, without creating a smugglers paradise.

In terms of Italy, the benefit of a weak currency would be exports. But most of Italy's exports go to the EU.

Here's the latest figures I found about Italian exports;
The top export destinations of Italy are Germany $58.5B, France $48B, the United States $45B, the United Kingdom $24.9B and Spain $23.3B

So 4 of their top 5 export markets are currently in the EU. By having their own, weaker currency, they would almost certainly have to leave the EU and remove themselves from the SM, which in turn would create trade barriers with the European market. The EU would then protect their industries, as they should responsibly do. All of this is much like what we will experience when/if we leave.

So they would risk the vast majority of their exports, and therefore millions of jobs in Italy, if they were to leave the EU and have a weaker currency. It is true they might pick up more export business from the rest of the world, but would that be more viable than their current exports to the EU? I would say very doubtful. Also you would have to consider their imports would also become more expensive because of the weaker currency.

So how would that help the Italian economy?

Yes they would have to do all those things because they are not in control. The Italians hate, hate, hate the Euro.

If the Italian currency was devalued then Fiats become cheaper. Italy exports more cars and imports less cars. Result stronger economy.

[SwedishBaggie]

I see Koppaberg have moved some production to the UK. How many other EU manufacturers might consider that a good idea.

That’s really sh*t cider... 😎