O/T:- Who needs Parliament?

[tarquinbeech]

Ok but again, the NHS didn't appear as a natural consequence of capitalism.

The NHS was part of a political process of keeping the masses "happy".......Capitalism coupled with Democracy was the West´s alternative to Russia and China´s Communism after the two World Wars.......the UK government was extremely worried that it had armed and trained returning troops, who would no longer accept the feudalistic class-system that they had previously left....they were also returning with new ideas and experiences gained with travel and mixing with "others".....remember, most people never went beyond their local village or town pre-1914 except for a week in Skeggy or Blackpool.......now newly-trained, armed Brits were mixing with French and Belgians.
It can be argued that Capitalism created the environment where the newly-empowered working-classes were seeking better working conditions, life expectancy, nutrition, living wages etc....the NHS was a logical progression of those aspirations.......so why risk civil war? give them want they wanted and gradually hike up taxes to pay for it with Capitalism creating the factories and jobs to pay the taxes, a win-win situation........the "mission creep" later included "the dole" or jobseekers allowance and ever-spiralling taxation and a continued rush to consumerism.

[BigFatPie]

The threads taken an interesting turn into political theory much of which I don’t know an awful lot about. And don’t pretend to.

I’m fairly sure the restrictions of government will moderate some of the wilder ambitions of Corbyn and McDonnell, hopefully toward something more Scandinavian. I’m absolutely positive that staying in the EU has already moderated some of the wider ambitions of the Tory Party, which is why I’m so keen to stay in, and the loonies in that party want to leave.

[Skatorna]

I'm not sure I agree with you about Sweden but I've never lived there and you have so I'll keep my mouth shut about that.

I don't know what you're considering as the beginning of capitalism because you've cited a few different time frames and events, but I would still maintain that the biggest jump in quality of life for the people at the bottom of the pile came post WW2 via state intervention to what was a fairly pure version of capitalism.

It evolved out of feudalism, the demise of which was in the 1700's to early 1800's depending on where you were in Europe (and the UK for that matter). You're looking at a timeframe of 1730ish to 1830ish where feudalism is dying in the UK and most of europe - but then again, the process is still happening now in many countries. John Locke was certainly the visionary and effectively philosophised free market economics, so we can say with relative certainty that it couldn't be any earlier than 1700 more or less any where.

I would argue that to an extent, the NHS was one of many possible consequences of capitalism actually. Businesses need fit and healthy employees more than governments need fit and healthy citizens. There are various other answers to that question and the UK went with the NHS. Others follow a similar pattern, Switzerland and others followed a mandatory health insurance pattern and the US decided to let the major pharmaceutical organisations buy out their politicians and create price monopolies - but health insurance is standard in most careers in the states as a result of employment - because again, businesses need healthy employees. Feudal Lords needn't care about the health of their peasants as the work they did wasn't particularly specialised and they could always get more; capitalism developed specialisation and collaboration among humans never before seen - workers were now assets we humans like to protect their assets.

The post war era was a great time for many reasons - the relief of the end of war, the liberation of women having held the country together while the men went off to fight, technological advances that were done during that time (especially in electrics, chemicals, energy and communications) - and the biggest technological advances that we like to forget during the war period - the rise of the tampon and disposable women's sanitary products - giving women more freedom, lowering infections and increasing wellbeing.


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Anyway, we have digressed somewhat. With current polls putting the Tories at 38%, Labour at 23%, Lib Dems at 15% and Brexit Party at 12% - surely we are going to see a Brexit Party/Conservative coalition when this fabled general election does come?

[tarquinbeech]

The threads taken an interesting turn into political theory much of which I don’t know an awful lot about. And don’t pretend to.

I’m fairly sure the restrictions of government will moderate some of the wilder ambitions of Corbyn and McDonnell, hopefully toward something more Scandinavian. I’m absolutely positive that staying in the EU has already moderated some of the wider ambitions of the Tory Party, which is why I’m so keen to stay in, and the loonies in that party want to leave.

Interesting factoid for you Chubs......did you know that the original TUCs of the 1890s, the original Labour party (the Labour Representation Committee) of 1900 and the Labour Party of 1906 ALL PUBLICLY REJECTED the first fledgling NI schemes because they feared it was a trick by the Capitalists.
Labour wanted a direct fight for control of certain industries, factories, the "means of production" ie a move to Communism. they had increased the number of "strike days" from 1.9 million in 1907 to a staggering 38.1 million in 1912 and were on the road to your Revolution!.........they saw National Insurance as a gimmick, a distraction......Keir Hardie, Labour leader said in reply to the new Liberal NI act of 1911 (4 pence from workers, 2 from the employer and 3 from the government)......quote ""What was the answer received when a minimum wage of thirty shillings [£1.50] for all and eight shillings [40p] per day was demanded for those who worked underground in unhealthy conditions? No, say the Liberals, but we will give you an Insurance Bill. We shall not uproot the cause of poverty but we will give you a porous plaster to cover the disease that poverty causes". .......mmmmm whould´ve thought it, Labour opposing the start of the NHS, brought in by a Liberal Lloyd George?

Just to prove that my reading material is wide and varied......Socialism Today http://socialismtoday.org/archive/120/nhs

[tarquinbeech]

Anyway, we have digressed somewhat. With current polls putting the Tories at 38%, Labour at 23%, Lib Dems at 15% and Brexit Party at 12% - surely we are going to see a Brexit Party/Conservative coalition when this fabled general election does come?

I agree Swedish Magpie, I´m totally bored by the whole thing now and have a desperate desire to see the end of it asap.....what´s quite sad is that many who voted "leave" have already, like my father, died without ever seeing the new independent UK (he passed in March this year).....he never hated the EU and travelled and worked extensively in Europe as part of our armed forces, but what he couldn´t stand (like many of our older generation) was the continued devolving of powers to a foreign power based in Brussels with our own MPs shrugging their shoulders and saying "not our fault, it´s out of our hands"......many Remainers see that as being a good thing ie safety in numbers, unaccountability, I see it as "passing the buck" and laziness.......hopefully 3 more weeks and it´s over

[drillerpie]

It evolved out of feudalism, the demise of which was in the 1700's to early 1800's depending on where you were in Europe (and the UK for that matter). You're looking at a timeframe of 1730ish to 1830ish where feudalism is dying in the UK and most of europe - but then again, the process is still happening now in many countries. John Locke was certainly the visionary and effectively philosophised free market economics, so we can say with relative certainty that it couldn't be any earlier than 1700 more or less any where.

I would argue that to an extent, the NHS was one of many possible consequences of capitalism actually. Businesses need fit and healthy employees more than governments need fit and healthy citizens. There are various other answers to that question and the UK went with the NHS. Others follow a similar pattern, Switzerland and others followed a mandatory health insurance pattern and the US decided to let the major pharmaceutical organisations buy out their politicians and create price monopolies - but health insurance is standard in most careers in the states as a result of employment - because again, businesses need healthy employees. Feudal Lords needn't care about the health of their peasants as the work they did wasn't particularly specialised and they could always get more; capitalism developed specialisation and collaboration among humans never before seen - workers were now assets we humans like to protect their assets.

The post war era was a great time for many reasons - the relief of the end of war, the liberation of women having held the country together while the men went off to fight, technological advances that were done during that time (especially in electrics, chemicals, energy and communications) - and the biggest technological advances that we like to forget during the war period - the rise of the tampon and disposable women's sanitary products - giving women more freedom, lowering infections and increasing wellbeing.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, we have digressed somewhat. With current polls putting the Tories at 38%, Labour at 23%, Lib Dems at 15% and Brexit Party at 12% - surely we are going to see a Brexit Party/Conservative coalition when this fabled general election does come?

I would say Smith and Ricardo and others rather than Locke. I know Locke linked private property with natural law but I dont think he envisaged satanic mills when he described a bead of a toiling man's sweat falling on his land and therefore becoming his.

Seeing as you've cited a naturalist I'll cite an earlier (arguably) naturalist author whose state of nature is widely believed to be a description of England's proto-capitalist society. Again, not looking great for the little man.

I'd also push back on your claim that capitalism protects people as they are assets. That depends on the scarcity of the asset, hence in 1920 you could drop dead at 45 with no teeth and a hunch back because they'd just send the next generation down there. That is visible with the US system too: great if you've got a career with free health insurance, not so great if you haven't. If we're judging human worth and dignity by value to the employment market I think we're doing it wrong.

I agree that capitalism has advanced society in many ways but I really think you are romanticising it. Post WW2 Britain was actually poorer than pre war Britain but somehow we ended up with an NHS and a rudimentary welfare state.

Yes you could say capitalism created the conditions (I think you're neglecting to mention the enlightenment and discovery of the scientific method too) but without an organised movement to advance the claims of the average man (as with the French constitution of 1792 and the revolutions of 1848 the little people always have to unite and fight for their rights) ie the Labour movement, it would never have happened.

So yes capitalism has given us a lot, and works well in tandem with a movement to push back against its worst excesses, but an inherently good system which automatically provides a just outcome for everyone? Not for me Clive.

[TheBlackHorse]

... lest we forget ... all this warm, cuddly socialist crap about the NHS (and don't forget state pensions)which took much of its present form in 1948 was little more than agreed consensus politics, the costing of which was affordable due to the fact that life expectancy was relatively low - die at 70/72 - and retirement age was 65. Easy peasy/good policy for winning an election.

[BigFatPie]

... lest we forget ... all this warm, cuddly socialist crap about the NHS (and don't forget state pensions)which took much of its present form in 1948 was little more than agreed consensus politics, the costing of which was affordable due to the fact that life expectancy was relatively low - die at 70/72 - and retirement age was 65. Easy peasy/good policy for winning an election.

The Tories, including Churchill, voted against the creation of the NHS 21 times.

[tarquinbeech]

The Tories, including Churchill, voted against the creation of the NHS 21 times.

Nice try Chubby.

Churchill quote “The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is clear: Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman simply on the ground that it is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most important mansion….Our policy is to create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, ***, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available.”....2nd March 1944.

Churchill was hugely in favor of A National Health Service, (National Insurance was already in operation, since 1911, as I´ve already explained) just not the one adopted by the Labour Party......he had in fact openly requested that his party look into a different version back in 45, but he lost the election and went into Opposition.

[BigFatPie]

Nice try Chubby.

Churchill quote “The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is clear: Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman simply on the ground that it is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most important mansion….Our policy is to create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, ***, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available.”....2nd March 1944.

Churchill was hugely in favor of A National Health Service, (National Insurance was already in operation, since 1911, as I´ve already explained) just not the one adopted by the Labour Party......he had in fact openly requested that his party look into a different version back in 45, but he lost the election and went into Opposition.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘nice try’. What is it about my post that is incorrect?