O/T Democracy

[rolymiller]

Even if there was an election:

10:48
Election: Tories 'would have to gain ground to stay still'

BBC News Channel

The Conservative Party will have to gain ground to maintain its majority in the event of a general election, politics professor Sir John Curtice has said.

He said the Lib Dems had been holding a "remarkably solid" 19% in the polls and it was also likely the SNP would win seats from the Conservatives.

"One of the things you have to realise is that simply in order to stand still, Conservatives will have to make some gains from Labour," he said.

Sir John said the Tories currently have an eight-point lead over Labour.

However, he said the battle would not be so much between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn, but "between Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage".

Mr Johnson has said he would prefer to leave the EU with a deal, while Brexit Party leader Mr Farage says getting Brexit over the line is more important than securing a deal.

Which suggests to me we are likely to have a similar make up of parliament as it is now. In other
words nowt will change re Brexit.

This is gonna rumble on folks...

[KerrAvon]

It looks increasingly likely that Labour - who have banged on about wanting a General Election since the last one - will now sit on their hands and decline an offer of one by BoJo out of fear that the public might strengthen his hand.

They are not thinking this through. Suppose the rebel alliance gets its way and passes a law that requires BoJo to go to Brussels to ask for an extension, how do they think that will work? He goes, he says 'I'm told to ask for an extension. I don't know why Parliament wants one, I don't know what Parliament are planning to do with any extra time. I can see no evidence of any consensus in Parliament as to what to do and can't see how the position will change'

That will go down well.

[rolymiller]

It looks increasingly likely that Labour - who have banged on about wanting a General Election since the last one - will now sit on their hands and decline an offer of one by BoJo out of fear that the public might strengthen his hand.

They are not thinking this through. Suppose the rebel alliance gets its way and passes a law that requires BoJo to go to Brussels to ask for an extension, how do they think that will work? He goes, he says 'I'm told to ask for an extension. I don't know why Parliament wants one, I don't know what Parliament are planning to do with any extra time. I can see no evidence of any consensus in Parliament as to what to do and can't see how the position will change'

That will go down well.

Yep. I accept that the EU may not give us an extension if that's what you are saying but I can't see why they wouldn't.

A genuine question for you as a legal man Mr Kerr. If there was an extension to Jan 31st would that not mean that we would still be in the same boat when that time came assuming no deal had been reached? Would an alliance be able to bring a law about where we could never leave the EU without a negotiated exit? And if so could this be challenged in the courts.

Sorry to pick your brains but you have your uses!

[ragingpup]

It looks increasingly likely that Labour - who have banged on about wanting a General Election since the last one - will now sit on their hands and decline an offer of one by BoJo out of fear that the public might strengthen his hand.

They are not thinking this through. Suppose the rebel alliance gets its way and passes a law that requires BoJo to go to Brussels to ask for an extension, how do they think that will work? He goes, he says 'I'm told to ask for an extension. I don't know why Parliament wants one, I don't know what Parliament are planning to do with any extra time. I can see no evidence of any consensus in Parliament as to what to do and can't see how the position will change'

That will go down well.

I think Labour’s (and the other ‘opposition to No Deal’ parties main concern with accepting the GE ‘offer’ is more to do with voting it through and then the Government using prerogative to change the date of the election to after the 31st and then run the clock down. Clearly the puppet masters behind Boris would have no problem with such a cynical move.

I wish Boris would publish the detail of his solutions to the backstop. All evidence points to tech not being available that would solve that border issue at this point. But he seems to think that it’s possible. Why can’t he just publish the ideas for scrutiny? Clearly his own party rebels came out of the meeting today with him, having asked him about his plans, thinking that he hasn’t got one, therefore he’s simply stalling towards a no deal. It seems clear that this front of using No Deal as a bargaining point has no basis at all – just wants the No Deal.

In response to the other point, I would imagine that the EU would grant the extension with the expectation that there will be a general election soon on the basis that Conservatives will set out their real intention of No Deal and Labour and the others set out their own. The problem then of course is whether the returned party can command enough majority in parliament for either outcome to be put into motion!

The only solution I can see (and I am not in agreement with this but there seems so little ability to compromise on the deal) is that a Law is passed that acts out the result of a 2nd vote on clearer outcomes than the first. No Deal v WA, No Deal v Remain or WA v Remain. How we can legislate for the outcome of that to be different to that of the 1st I have no idea about though!

[Nardendee]

I did not care for Boris Johnson but I’ve changed my mind.
There is another agenda at play here. That is an agenda not just to delay brexit but cancel it altogether. 500 MPs voted to trigger article 50 yet all that is happening is delay after delay. Continually voting it down when Theresa May in charge. Johnson is overwhelmingly elected by the very people who are again trying to delay again by taking away the very negotiating point that we would have with the EU.

I voted to remain 3 years ago but I accept that the majority voted to leave and that we must leave. If the EU will not compromise we must leave without a deal. If we take no deal off the table why should they offer us one?

Make no mistake there are moves afoot to make sure we don’t leave at all.

Irrespective of all this, the key thing here, speaking as a business man is the uncertainty. One way or another this has to be sorted now. Kicking the can down the road will achieve nothing apart from more uncertainty.

And the guy who has just defected to the Lib Dem’s......he claims to be representative of his constituents. His constituents elected him as a CONSERVATIVE MP. All he wants is another referendum.

[ragingpup]

I did not care for Boris Johnson but I’ve changed my mind.
There is another agenda at play here. That is an agenda not just to delay brexit but cancel it altogether. 500 MPs voted to trigger article 50 yet all that is happening is delay after delay. Continually voting it down when Theresa May in charge. Johnson is overwhelmingly elected by the very people who are again trying to delay again by taking away the very negotiating point that we would have with the EU.

I voted to remain 3 years ago but I accept that the majority voted to leave and that we must leave. If the EU will not compromise we must leave without a deal. If we take no deal off the table why should they offer us one?

Make no mistake there are moves afoot to make sure we don’t leave at all.

Irrespective of all this, the key thing here, speaking as a business man is the uncertainty. One way or another this has to be sorted now. Kicking the can down the road will achieve nothing apart from more uncertainty.

And the guy who has just defected to the Lib Dem’s......he claims to be representative of his constituents. His constituents elected him as a CONSERVATIVE MP. All he wants is another referendum.

Good post. On a practical level, what compromise are you looking for from the EU? Signs are that they will lose the backstop if there was the solution Boris claims there is. Why do you think he won't publish details of his solution?

If that alone was changed, would you leave with the rest of the WA intact? I fear many, including Boris, have no intention of compromise along these lines, and even if he is, many behind him I don't think are. Possibly enough to get through parliament though, and I'd be willing to support it if he had the solution so be good if he would kindly publish his details for scrutiny don't you think?

[rolymiller]

Yep he refused to answer this question 3 or 4 times on the h of p. He hasnt had any significant dealings with the EU and nor does he intend to. Boris must be stupid if he doesn't think people can't see thru him
The prorogue of parliament is a means to an end as would be a general election if he called one.

The govt is in the hands of the erg now and far right of the party and even moderate Tories are rebelling against it. If you are a brexiteer on here you may as well admit to having far right views now.

[Nardendee]

Don’t agree. If you are a Brexiteer it is about ensuring that we leave the EU with or without a deal.
You may be right that he has no intention of re-negotiating. The reason being that the EU are not prepared to re-negotiate either. So there is an impasse.

Under those circumstances what do we do? We leave without a deal.

As I say I did not want to leave but it was a democratic vote. 52% to 48%.

I find it incomprehensible that after all Mr. Corbyn’s comments that he would vote down the opportunity of an election.
If it is delayed until after we leave the EU the majority will have got what they voted for, and would then have the opportunity to vote again for the leader they want, safe in the knowledge that they couldn’t suddenly decide they don’t want to leave at all. Business would have certainty which is of paramount importance.

By delaying the election it removes the spectre of the Brexit party clouding the issue because, aside from wanting to leave, what policies do they have?

[flourbasher]

We may leave without a deal And if so there will be no backstop arrangement for NI that the EU so desperately wants.

They also want our trade and in particular Germany plus the large severance payment
It's a two way street so the EU would be better coming to the table and start being sensible, either before we leave or afterwards.

Hold your nerve and negotiate hard.

Corbyn. Lol. Please please just go away somewhere....anywhere

[great_fire]

Remainers idea of "democracy" is to ignore a democratic vote and hand the country over to an undemocratic foreign power.

It's hilarious.