Deal or No Deal

[Norder]

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but......Nationalism was thought ok when Remainers campaigned with "Scotland Stronger In Europe"...was the same with Wales...but we in England were pinned back with "Britain stronger in Europe"....so the remainers were ok with fuelling the divide to suit them....but backward of them to call out Englishness when it was they that determined to shrink Britain....byt still, no fear of being labeled Little Scotlanders/Welshtirs - as for them, is seemingly all well and good - as long as your in the phook England - E.U Nationalist remain camp !

[Norder]

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above post under wrong thread (can delete) - see here: http://boards.footymad.net/showthrea...1#post39342241

[army88]

Well, in three weeks time Project Fear will no longer exist - if Boris is as good as his word ()

And if things go well for us then I will admit that I was wring all along. I will be delighted because I want the best for my country.

But if things turn sour ten Project Fear will become Project Blame - but who would you blame?
Will YOU admit that you got it wrong, or continue to blame the EU or the Lib Dems?

Not long to wait now....

I’m interested 59 are you just going to lay all the blame at Boris door if as you say it goes Pete tong?
I’m not sure how he can be held accountable when the man who started this bolted the job ( a lot to answer for imo ).
May who simply didn’t want to leave and I believe spent more time negotiating on what she’d be doing if and when her tenure finished ( also a lot to answer for ).
Then there is your lot and Jezza who have imo offered nothing to strengthen their position if there is as general election, they have pointed fingers at the prime minister but skulked around in the back ground.

For my part I would be a lot more responsive to labour and liberal if they had come out and said there is nothing to be gained by causing more problems internally within parliament , let’s all pull together and get the right deal for the UK and then we can campaign to who takes the country forwards after Brexit was delivered.

Just a thought

[sinkov]

Well, in three weeks time Project Fear will no longer exist

Project Fear existed before the referendum 59, and we don't need to wonder, we can see how right the experts were back then.

"HM Treasury official guidance to voters, in a letter sent to each and every household, was that on a Leave vote, “Britain’s economy could be tipped into a year-long recession. Further, at least 500,000 jobs could be lost and GDP could be around 3.6% lower following a vote to leave the EU than it would be if we remained in the EU.”

Year long recession...wrong.
500,000 jobs lost...wrong.
GDP lower...wrong.

And that was just the Treasury 'experts', here are some more 'experts' on the consequences of a Leave vote,

Goldman Sachs, who donated £500,000 to the Remain campaign, "the British economy would go into recession by early 2017."...wrong.
Credit Suisse predicted a 1pc fall in GDP...wrong.
Nomura predicted a 1.3% fall...wrong.
Chris Giles, Economics Editor, Financial Times, predicted a recession...wrong.
Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England, predicted inflation rising to 6.5%, and property values to drop by a third,...wrong and wrong.
David Cameron, Prime MInister,"The job you do, the home you live in are at risk. The shock to our economy after leaving Europe would tip the country into recession.”...wrong.
IMF, “Brexit would trigger recession”, predicted -0.3% GDP for Q3"...wrong.
OECD, "Short term impact of -1.25% GDP"....wrong.
"FTSE 100 could see £350bn wiped off in Brexit aftermath, warns UBS"...wrong.
"Sterling would fall to parity vs euro after Brexit vote – UBS”...wrong.
George Osborne, Chancellor of the Exchequer, "A Brexit vote ‘would immediately lead to an increase in the premium for lending to UK businesses and households."...wrong.

And here's what the BBC's economics editor Kamal Ahmed had to say about the Treasury forecasts, "the Treasury analysis can be set apart from the "he said, she said" tenor of much of the EU referendum debate. It is based on a well-understood and tested economic model."
So the BBC's 'expert' was endorsing the Treasury forecast as well, but as we now know, it was... wrong.

The thing is 59, you claim the result of the referendum was influenced by misinformation from the Leave side, those 'lies' swung it Leave's way and so the result is invalid. But if lies influenced some voters, then who had the most influential, convincing liars ? For every voter influenced by two mavericks like Boris and Farage, there must have been half a dozen or more influenced by the BBC, the PM, the Chancellor, the IMF, the blg banks, the CBI, President Obama, the Governor of the Bank of England etc.

Cut out the lies and misinformation from both sides and it would have been a landslide for Leave, you got lucky that lies were allowed and passed off by the national broadcaster as facts, which had to be believed. And now you're trying it again.

[1959_60]

Yes, i agree that the referendum campaign was sh1te on both sides.
The people were offered Boris's Unicorn deal or the status quo.

Neither side came out of it with much credit.

That's why the public should be asked the question again, this time armed with real information.

Do you want a hard Brexit or remain? Those seem to be the only options at the moment.

And we could use the Government (Boris, Rees-Mogg etc) own Yellowhammer document as a guide - just like the Government are using it.

We both agree that the original referendum campaign was full of lies and scare tactics (on both sides) so let the people decide on the actual Governments best estimate of what it would actually mean?

Seems logical to me.

Or we could decide via a GE where each party stands on it's own policy.

Which would mean...

Tory - Hard Brexit
Labour - Second referendum
Lib Dem - Remain

Can't get more democratic than that, eh?

[outwoodclaret]

and that government of the people by the people for the people shall not perish from the earth. Those were the concluding words of the Gettysburg Address. Well if not entirely perished here it has withered on the vine. Our government has been of late by in no particular order John Bercow a ragtag alliance of Remainers and the Brussels bureaucracy. I am almost past caring now whether we stay in the EU or Leave. This last Parliament has proved an incompetent bunch who only care for your vote when it is the vote that keeps or gets them into power. I can never look at Parliament the same way again.

[sinkov]

Yes, i agree that the referendum campaign was sh1te on both sides.
The people were offered Boris's Unicorn deal or the status quo.

Neither side came out of it with much credit.

That's why the public should be asked the question again, this time armed with real information.

Do you want a hard Brexit or remain? Those seem to be the only options at the moment.

And we could use the Government (Boris, Rees-Mogg etc) own Yellowhammer document as a guide - just like the Government are using it.

We both agree that the original referendum campaign was full of lies and scare tactics (on both sides) so let the people decide on the actual Governments best estimate of what it would actually mean?

Seems logical to me.

Or we could decide via a GE where each party stands on it's own policy.

Which would mean...

Tory - Hard Brexit
Labour - Second referendum
Lib Dem - Remain

Can't get more democratic than that, eh?

There is possibly a more democratic way 59, accept the result of the largest democratic vote this country has ever seen, as parliament has already voted to do, and leave under Article 50 of the EU's Treaty of Rome on October 31st, which also happens to be legislated for under UK law as well. Of course if you have no respect for democracy or the law...………..?

Just to go back a bit though, I disagree with your basic premise, you treat the people of this country as idiots and morons, I don't. We have a fairly sophisticated electorate, they can see through people like you, just pushing the party line, they have a contempt for our politicians, they can see through them quite easily as well, they are well capable of seeing through their bluff, bluster, lies and misinformation, they are not fools, they are capable of making their own minds up, which they did and voted to Leave. So we must leave, couldn't be simpler.

[1959_60]

I've got it!

All those that voted Brexit in 2016 can have it. A hard Brexit too.

And those of us who voted remain can be treated as still being in the EU.

Everyones happy!

So all your goods that are imported will be subject to WTO tariffs, cars plus 10% for instance.
We remainers will be able to buy tariff free.

To visit the continent (with your blue passport) you will have to obtain a Green card and take our private medical insurance.
We (with our Claret passport) will have free insurance and simply bugger off.

If we, or our children, wish to live or work in Europe then we can. Same as getting a job in Yarkshire.
You lot will find it very difficult.

The trucks carrying our goods will be waved through the border.
Your trucks will be held up, possibly for a considerable time.

Some companies will struggle with the new arrangement, but the Remain companies will continue as per normal.

Lots more examples but you get my drift.
I am struggling to see any benefit for you lot though.

Shall I tell Boris?

[sinkov]

And if things go well for us then I will admit that I was wring all along. I will be delighted because I want the best for my country.
But if things turn sour ten Project Fear will become Project Blame - but who would you blame?
Will YOU admit that you got it wrong, or continue to blame the EU or the Lib Dems?

Not long to wait now....

I think we'll have quite a few years to wait 59, before we can make a definitive judgement on whether it was the right decision to leave purely on economic grounds, but if we are in a position to vote out those who make our laws, who tell us how we run our lives, who set the taxes we pay, then I will be content.

In the short term I doubt you'll be disappointed, yesterday we went shopping in Booths, I was told to find the figs which were on the shopping list, I told Mrs S where they were and thought she would pick them up, she thought I'd picked them up, so we get home, no figs. Today we were in Sainsburys, I went to find the figs, no figs, I asked an assistant if they had any in their store, he said no, we can't get them. I thought this strange because Booths had plenty the day before so I asked him why not. 'Brexit', he said, 'WTF has Brexit got to do with it', I asked, but I left the WTF out, 'Problems at the ports' he said, 'But we haven't left the fecking EU yet' I said, but I left the fecking out. He just shrugged and walked away, If we ever do get out, I expect there'll be plenty more where that came from. You'll have a field day watching the BBC mon ami.

[1959_60]

That's a fair point Sinkov.

Do you remember decimilisation?

The prices of many things went up afterwards I remember.

The inevitable reason given was "decimilisation" and most people just shrugged and accepted it.