2019 General Election,

[Red Zone]

Lengthy indeed .where to start. I suppose the deception of the GERs figures would be a good start To suggest that Scotland, Wales and NI are responsible for more or less 100% of the deficit with under 20% of the entire population is fantasy. Just to quickly summarise we here is Scotland are face with what is a basic binary choice. Take our own future into our hands or the status quo which has worked so very well for us.... Actually its not even the status quo its far worse. Scotland is at a crossroad I say its time to be brave and grasp our future.

As I said above, how various things like corporation tax are allocated, means that GERS are a best estimate only, it's not a deception just that the statistics are not very well explained. There are 12 regions in the UK, 9 in England plus Scotland, Wales and N Ireland. Of these 12 regions 9 have a deficit, including Scotland and indeed 6 of the 9 English regions. These 9 regions deficit total more than 200% of the UK deficit offset by the huge surpluses in London and South East England and a small surplus in East England. It's statistically meaningless to equate any single region surplus or deficit to the overall deficit when you have pluses and minuses. What the statistics do tell us not surprisingly is that there is a huge economic divide between London/SE England and the rest of the country.

I understand why you and many others want to take a chance amid all of the uncertainty without knowing what circumstances you would be voting in given the dire and extremist choice provided by the two main UK parties but others like me are more cautious. We will wait and see what happens on the 12th December but based on recent opinion polls it looks like the majority of Scots will vote for Unionist parties, although not by a significant majority albeit SNP will likely win the huge majority of Scottish seats (don't get me started on our voting system as that is a debate for another day!!). Our country being pretty much split down the middle with no meaningful majority for or against independence or even for or against another independence vote is another reason that I wouldn't want another vote next year as the polarisation will just get worse (Mason's recent post is just one tiny example of all the crap that will be flying about in both directions by both sides)

[Red Zone]

Farage only contesting labour held seats. Wonder what he’s been promised...

This union is tinpot. If you vote for it, you’re a f*cking imbecile

Farage is an idiot of the highest order interested only in his own ego. He claims he wants a Tory majority so Brexit happens yet stands mini-Tories against the Tories in Labour seats, knowing full well that the only way there is a Tory majority is if they win probably around 30 seats from labour (given they will lose some of their own seats). Words defy this logic from a buffoon of a man.

[mondo_notion]

Between their 2 parties, 3 if you count UKIP they are pretty damn near destroying the country.

Even the most staunchest of anti-SNP/Indy voter must see this. We are lucky enough to have a viable option to get rid of all that and we must take it.

[donsdaft]

We won’t be allowed to.
Our masters won’t let us

[stewarty27]

As I said above, how various things like corporation tax are allocated, means that GERS are a best estimate only, it's not a deception just that the statistics are not very well explained. There are 12 regions in the UK, 9 in England plus Scotland, Wales and N Ireland. Of these 12 regions 9 have a deficit, including Scotland and indeed 6 of the 9 English regions. These 9 regions deficit total more than 200% of the UK deficit offset by the huge surpluses in London and South East England and a small surplus in East England. It's statistically meaningless to equate any single region surplus or deficit to the overall deficit when you have pluses and minuses. What the statistics do tell us not surprisingly is that there is a huge economic divide between London/SE England and the rest of the country.

I understand why you and many others want to take a chance amid all of the uncertainty without knowing what circumstances you would be voting in given the dire and extremist choice provided by the two main UK parties but others like me are more cautious. We will wait and see what happens on the 12th December but based on recent opinion polls it looks like the majority of Scots will vote for Unionist parties, although not by a significant majority albeit SNP will likely win the huge majority of Scottish seats (don't get me started on our voting system as that is a debate for another day!!). Our country being pretty much split down the middle with no meaningful majority for or against independence or even for or against another independence vote is another reason that I wouldn't want another vote next year as the polarisation will just get worse (Mason's recent post is just one tiny example of all the crap that will be flying about in both directions by both sides)

I cant claim credit for this its the work of a friend of mine could you take the time to consider this ?



Countries, large and small, rich or poor have regulated methods of recording their economy accurately. This allows them to report accurately on all the key economic indicators relating to tax, trade, overall wealth, GDP etc. Relating to the economy of their country.
Not Scotland however, our economy, our tax take, our trade, our exports, our overall wealth and GDP are all calculated by “estimates”. Many of those estimates are controlled from Westminster. This is no accident, the history of the British Empire is a great example of statistical manipulation designed to make the possession look much poorer, and therefore more reliant on Westminster than was the true position.
Over the centuries this operated across the World, countries were told they would be bankrupt, much poorer without the steady hand of Westminster emptying their pockets. They even told the USA they faced economic disaster if they broke free. One by one these colonies identified the truth and took the steps they required to break free. Not one has ever wanted to rejoin. Does that tell you something? It should!
I often wonder at the docile trust shown by Unionists in Scotland who naively believe Westminster would never do this to Scotland, you know the “equal partners” in the Union. The question they should be asking of course is why would Westminster not intentionally lie and mislead in order to hold onto Scotland’s wealth when they have operated that way for centuries with all their other possessions? They should also ask why we have trade and tax recording systems in Scotland that are only partially effective and therefore requires so many estimates to reach a “true” figure of actuality?
The UK is a giant lie. Any examination of the key elements of organising an effective and efficient economy for Scotland would include easy access to export goods, to bring in tourists directly into the country. Now look at our transport links, no large port despite being the leading export nation in this “precious union”. Our airports lacking the range of direct flights that would be normal for a country of our size and used only as “feeder services” for the international hubs in London. These are “policy“ decisions that ensures England controls and benefits from all that we do. This is but one example believe me, it permeates our entire economy.
We will never know the true wealth of Scotland until we are fully Independent. I confidently forecast it will be MUCH greater than expected.
I want to know that answer and that is why I and my entire family will be voting SNP on the 12th. If you want the answer I suggest you do the same.

[Red Zone]

I cant claim credit for this its the work of a friend of mine could you take the time to consider this ?



Countries, large and small, rich or poor have regulated methods of recording their economy accurately. This allows them to report accurately on all the key economic indicators relating to tax, trade, overall wealth, GDP etc. Relating to the economy of their country.
Not Scotland however, our economy, our tax take, our trade, our exports, our overall wealth and GDP are all calculated by “estimates”. Many of those estimates are controlled from Westminster. This is no accident, the history of the British Empire is a great example of statistical manipulation designed to make the possession look much poorer, and therefore more reliant on Westminster than was the true position.
Over the centuries this operated across the World, countries were told they would be bankrupt, much poorer without the steady hand of Westminster emptying their pockets. They even told the USA they faced economic disaster if they broke free. One by one these colonies identified the truth and took the steps they required to break free. Not one has ever wanted to rejoin. Does that tell you something? It should!
I often wonder at the docile trust shown by Unionists in Scotland who naively believe Westminster would never do this to Scotland, you know the “equal partners” in the Union. The question they should be asking of course is why would Westminster not intentionally lie and mislead in order to hold onto Scotland’s wealth when they have operated that way for centuries with all their other possessions? They should also ask why we have trade and tax recording systems in Scotland that are only partially effective and therefore requires so many estimates to reach a “true” figure of actuality?
The UK is a giant lie. Any examination of the key elements of organising an effective and efficient economy for Scotland would include easy access to export goods, to bring in tourists directly into the country. Now look at our transport links, no large port despite being the leading export nation in this “precious union”. Our airports lacking the range of direct flights that would be normal for a country of our size and used only as “feeder services” for the international hubs in London. These are “policy“ decisions that ensures England controls and benefits from all that we do. This is but one example believe me, it permeates our entire economy.
We will never know the true wealth of Scotland until we are fully Independent. I confidently forecast it will be MUCH greater than expected.
I want to know that answer and that is why I and my entire family will be voting SNP on the 12th. If you want the answer I suggest you do the same.

I realise this has been written by your friend and so whilst I don't want to sound offensive this strikes me as a fairly typical narrative written by someone with a chip on his shoulder based on past real or perceived misdeeds, with little or no evidence to support the assertions made. Why do I say that? Some specifics from me.

It is correct to say that all countries have a mechanism to record accurately things like GDP, national wealth, tax and spend surplus or deficits, imports/exports etc etc. We do as well as but like it or not our country is (currently) the United Kingdom, it is not Scotland hence why all those economic measures are accurate for our country, the UK. The UK then makes various calculations to measure such things at the Scotland level but the information simply doesn't exist to say with complete accuracy what things like tax income is. Let me give you an example.

Sainsbury's pay corporation tax based on their UK profits. In the GERS figures a percentage of the corporation tax is allocated to Scotland based on the level of activity (sales) in Scotland because Sainsbury's have no obligation to provide figures on profit earned in Scotland. Therefore by definition the GERS figure is estimated - is that a statistical manipulation as your friend suggests? No it's not, just that we as a country don't keep data at that level. To put it into context, GERS is estimated as being 98% accurate as far as tax allocations are concerned, so the picture presented by GERS is an estimate but I would contend a reasonably accurate one as far as tax is concerned.

I have little knowledge and even less interest in how we treated our colonies in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. What matters to me is the here and now and our future

The comments on airports and direct flights is a perfect example of the sort of nonsense written by those with an agenda with no supporting evidence. For a start it is not the UK Government that decides which airlines use our airports and where they fly to, that is a decision made by private companies. That said let me give an example of why your friend is talking nonsense. I would argue that the country nearest to us as a comparison is Norway in terms of population size, land mass and geography, not to mention the oil and gas industry. Your friend argues that we lack direct flights that is normal for a country our size. Does he know that we have direct flights to 39 different countries around the world from the three main Scottish airports? This compares to 36 for Norway. To say we are only used as a feeder service is just tosh.

With regard to exports your friend says that we are the leading export nation in our union. Where does he get this assertion from? The latest figures show that for goods Scotland exported £32Bn out of the UK total of £350Bn and in services it is £22Bn out of £279Bn. Both figures are broadly in line with our share of the UK population. Of course 60% of Scotland's exports go to the rest of the UK - so no port required there!! (ok I know a small amount will go to Northern Ireland).

As to the comment about confidently predicting that Scotland is already much wealthier than we are currently being told. What is the basis for this other than blind optimism?

I apologise if my response appears rather mean towards your friend but it really frustrates me when people just repeat or create assertions with no basis in fact, evidence or reality just to suit their cause. I am one of many that is not particularly wed to either side of the argument and could be persuaded to vote for independence if there is a proper case made but reading stuff that is simply just made up honestly doesn't help the independence cause and switches me off. Just because it is repeated and repeated, doesn't make it any more true!! I am very happy to be proven wrong in anything I have said or if there is other data or facts I have overlooked.

[stewarty27]

I realise this has been written by your friend and so whilst I don't want to sound offensive this strikes me as a fairly typical narrative written by someone with a chip on his shoulder based on past real or perceived misdeeds, with little or no evidence to support the assertions made. Why do I say that? Some specifics from me.

It is correct to say that all countries have a mechanism to record accurately things like GDP, national wealth, tax and spend surplus or deficits, imports/exports etc etc. We do as well as but like it or not our country is (currently) the United Kingdom, it is not Scotland hence why all those economic measures are accurate for our country, the UK. The UK then makes various calculations to measure such things at the Scotland level but the information simply doesn't exist to say with complete accuracy what things like tax income is. Let me give you an example.

Sainsbury's pay corporation tax based on their UK profits. In the GERS figures a percentage of the corporation tax is allocated to Scotland based on the level of activity (sales) in Scotland because Sainsbury's have no obligation to provide figures on profit earned in Scotland. Therefore by definition the GERS figure is estimated - is that a statistical manipulation as your friend suggests? No it's not, just that we as a country don't keep data at that level. To put it into context, GERS is estimated as being 98% accurate as far as tax allocations are concerned, so the picture presented by GERS is an estimate but I would contend a reasonably accurate one as far as tax is concerned.

I have little knowledge and even less interest in how we treated our colonies in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. What matters to me is the here and now and our future

The comments on airports and direct flights is a perfect example of the sort of nonsense written by those with an agenda with no supporting evidence. For a start it is not the UK Government that decides which airlines use our airports and where they fly to, that is a decision made by private companies. That said let me give an example of why your friend is talking nonsense. I would argue that the country nearest to us as a comparison is Norway in terms of population size, land mass and geography, not to mention the oil and gas industry. Your friend argues that we lack direct flights that is normal for a country our size. Does he know that we have direct flights to 39 different countries around the world from the three main Scottish airports? This compares to 36 for Norway. To say we are only used as a feeder service is just tosh.

With regard to exports your friend says that we are the leading export nation in our union. Where does he get this assertion from? The latest figures show that for goods Scotland exported £32Bn out of the UK total of £350Bn and in services it is £22Bn out of £279Bn. Both figures are broadly in line with our share of the UK population. Of course 60% of Scotland's exports go to the rest of the UK - so no port required there!! (ok I know a small amount will go to Northern Ireland).

As to the comment about confidently predicting that Scotland is already much wealthier than we are currently being told. What is the basis for this other than blind optimism?

I apologise if my response appears rather mean towards your friend but it really frustrates me when people just repeat or create assertions with no basis in fact, evidence or reality just to suit their cause. I am one of many that is not particularly wed to either side of the argument and could be persuaded to vote for independence if there is a proper case made but reading stuff that is simply just made up honestly doesn't help the independence cause and switches me off. Just because it is repeated and repeated, doesn't make it any more true!! I am very happy to be proven wrong in anything I have said or if there is other data or facts I have overlooked.

Hello Redzone Again thanks for your fairly comprehensive reply if you are serious about continuing this debate please take the time to look at this. A wee quiz for you. All the data here is completely verifiable


https://www.businessforscotland.com/...ISpJPeoVLa2JqY

[stewarty27]

The big debate Tonight ITV not only made a chunt of the Scottish people they actually trolled us... ! 3 minutes in ITV have selected a question about "the Union" in a debate from which they've banned the SNP. Johnson mentioned Nicola Sturgeon by name and then went on to criticise the SNP ! Its a f u ck in g joke .why do some of my fellow Scots think this is quite acceptable ?

[donsdaft]

I'm not watching any of it.

After being glued to the Parliament channel and all things related for a year, a general election campaign leaves me cold.

The tories are openly lying and cheating and nobody seems to care.
Vote for people like that and you will get all that you deserve.

[mondo_notion]

The big debate Tonight ITV not only made a chunt of the Scottish people they actually trolled us... ! 3 minutes in ITV have selected a question about "the Union" in a debate from which they've banned the SNP. Johnson mentioned Nicola Sturgeon by name and then went on to criticise the SNP ! Its a f u ck in g joke .why do some of my fellow Scots think this is quite acceptable ?

I don't think it's that big a deal. Besides, if Boris Johnson is mentioning Sturgeon on a 2 way national debate with Corbyn then it clearly shows the 'problem' of the SNP is getting under his skin. That can only be a good thing.