O/T:- Is Boris a mini Trump?

[drillerpie]

An excellent article by Sid´s old paymasters today, the Guardian.......a few quotes first then the full article attached....enjoy

The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union has left a huge €75bn (£62bn) hole in the bloc’s budget for the next seven years, 2021 to 2027. “And now we are fighting like ferrets in a sack,” said one EU diplomat with a sigh.


Without agreement, everything risks grinding to a halt in just nine months’ time, including the flow of cohesion funds, the cash dedicated to supporting the poorest member states.


There are two main rivals in the budget battle. On one side are those who proudly describe themselves as “the Frugals” – the Netherlands, Austria, Sweden and Denmark (although there are some concerns within the camp that the new Austrian coalition government, being a bit Green now, has been lost to them, and that the Swedes are going soft). As the biggest net payers, the Frugals have been insisting on a budget of no more than 1% of the EU’s gross national income. The European commission’s initial proposal was for 1.1% – around €1.25tn over the seven years.


Then there are the “Friends of Cohesion”. “The Friends of Corruption, you mean?” spat one EU diplomat from a Frugal state....Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Estonia, Croatia, Malta, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, Portugal and Greece.

Then there is France and Germany. Berlin’s main concern is that they don’t come out of it looking worse than the French. In Paris, the government just worries about how much cash is going to go to its farmers, said one senior EU official. The fragmentation of the national debates leaves it impossible to say what will happen, said a second official, with even Irish politics in turmoil following the election that has made Sinn Féin the second largest parliamentary party.

Going in to the summit, the European council’s president, Charles Michel, a former prime minister of Belgium, has been engaged in furious shuttle diplomacy around the capitals.

Some on here honestly cannot see the whole "house of cards" collapsing now we have pulled the plug'......IMO the EU will linger on on for a few more years..then take our view that the game is up and disintegrate....meanwhile PWC predict Italy, Spain and even the mighty Germany struggling for the next 20 years....whilst the UK (hopefully including my friends, the Scots and NI) forging ahead, firmly cementing their place in the top 10 nations in the world....one or two on here need to read, and act, on market predictions, rather than listen to their own echo in this footie bubble dominated by a few long-standing posters.....just because they shout the loudest, does not make them right, far from it!!

Full article https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ks-post-brexit

If the PWC predictions are these: https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/issues/eco...d-in-2050.html

then cementing our place in the top ten means falling from 9th to 10th with Germany still ahead of us in 2050.

Plus whenever predictions state that the UK will suffer as a result of leaving the single market we hear that these so called experts know nothing, but a graphic attempting to predict the next 30 years is to be taken as gospel.

I agree that the developing economies will have much larger growth rates and eventually overtake European countries, that is fairly obvious, but I don't see how that is a guarantee that Brexit will be a success as so much is yet to be decided in terms of trade deals.

[pingu_pie]

Wouldn't it be better to wait to see what our trade with the EU is after brexit before you claim we are distancing ourselves from them.
Or do you think the EU won't want to trade with us?
We are looking for more trading partners not getting rid of the old ones.

I didn't look on here for a few hours, but I think BFP answered this for me.

I think we had more leverage as part of a trading bloc the size of the EU; while they will trade with us, I can't imagine we will have as favourable terms with them as we did as actual members, so it will come down to whether the likes of the US and China want to trade with us as the big country the right on here believe we are, or as a relatively small former power that they can turn the screw on.

My other issue is that we have been among the world leaders in things such as animal welfare standards (while there is always still plenty to do), which is something that matters to me. I think the EU had similar high standards that were being brought up by our membership, far ahead of those of America and the rest. As we are a massive importer of food, and have made such a mess of agricultural policy that small farms will be struggling if faced with low-ethical standard imports as competition, and large farms have been incentivised to not produce food, it bothers me that we could end up either taking a massive step backwards in this field, or seeing a lot of farmers going bust.

The size of the EU, the rest of the world is always going to trade with it. Boris's job now is get a BETTER deal than we would have got from them as part of the group. If he doesn't, it's a failure.

[pingu_pie]

Fair and polite reply Penguin .. thank you.

Your diction is very good and immediately I sense you are no dummy (so to speak) and a relatively well educated bloke, so in answer to the main question you ask, I and nobody else can give a definitive reply at this moment in time, and it is time that will answer the question one way or the other. Where I as a salesman genuinely believe that Britain has always been a trading nation and the opportunities worldwide to freely trade without restriction again (including the EU) are enormous, others of a different view think the umbrella of the EU is a protection and it's better to stick with what you know. None of us on this board will participate personally in any trade negotiations so both sides of the argument have valid points based on their own opinions.

Just one thing concerning the USA. I would hazard a guess that the majority of anti US posters on here are anti because of their anti Trump beliefs, not the huge US companies who will be there to trade with long after Trump has disappeared. I don't know how many NCM posters have done business with the US, but in my experience from several trips there, we never had a problem and they liked doing business with the Limeys! Also don't forget the US Dems want to trade more with us as well as the GOP, but can't at present as we are under EU rules and our hands are tied.

I'm not a dummy, you're right, but I also am not some high-powered individual. I have never really felt a wish to chase riches, and I would have been a dreadful salesperson - you have a set of skills that I do not possess. I've mentioned before, I work in the charity sector; I need to be able to pay my bills without worrying, and I need to see that I'm doing something that helps someone else. So of course I am bound to be a lefty, and I do always have to factor in that plenty of people out there do not see the world the same way. I even understand why fiscal conservatism has been the more regular philosophy of the country.

You are right, we don't for definite how things are going to go, and your answer is sort of what I was trying to find out. Obviously, I reckon we had more negotiating power and influence as part of a larger group, you believe we can do better going solo. Time will tell. I also liked the EU for it being another step towards people viewing ourselves as a species rather than a group of nation states divided by things like language and skin colour, as that is the next stage of progress I think we ought to be making. So, while it was imperfect, nothing has ever been perfect in it's first iteration, and we ought to have been leading and shaping it rather than sending idiots like Farage to take a wage while not taking part. On top of that, we haven't lost a generation of young people to a fight with Europe since it was set up, which is either a great coincidence (unlikely, I think), or a great success of the Union.

See, I think this is the sort of debate that can be had - we can disagree strongly, but make actual points - and I was chasing because you equally appear to not be a dummy. What contributes nothing is the sort of drivel that Soccerman posts - I notice he popped up with a few good examples yesterday again - as just sitting around trying to wind up people who disagree with you is, well... you choose the pejorative. I've said before, I just scroll over anything that "JoePass" posts, as he has proven time and again that he has nothing whatsoever to say. At least I always read - and want to argue with - the stuff that you, or navypie for example, post, even if I really don't like your points. So the little digs are just a bit silly to my mind (without wanting to sound patronising).

Sorry - nearly forget the USA bit. Obviously I dislike Trump, and think he is not suitable for the job he has. I don't think I've really been anti-USA at any point, but I do dislike the idea of lowering our standards to theirs in terms of factory farming, for example. I'm happy for us to go get a wonderful trade deal with them, but I won't be happy if it includes more caged hens, "super-dairies", further privatisation of the health service or an explosion in drug costs, and any comcession to Trump's disbelief of climate change.

Last thing, while aware I have verbal diarrhoea; the one thing I really hate is the football-isation of all this. I went for a pint with a friend of mine who is an arch-conservative (economically) the other night. We are opposite ends of the spectrum, but it doesn't mean that I have to worship Corbyn and the entire Labour party, and he doesn't just come out full blue. Neither of us like Trump, or Boris, or people like Raab or Priti Patel. Neither of us think that Rebecca Long-Bailey is a good idea for Labour, or that Emily Thornberry would have been, and neither of us are impressed with the Democratic options at the moment. My point being, I get fed up of "I voted Brexit so Boris is brilliant and I must defend him", or "You voted remain so you must love Corbyn". Largely, I deplore the lack of talent at the top of both parties at the moment. There's about 2-3 people in each party that look to be competent to me, and that's a problem.

[i961pie]

I'm not a dummy, you're right, but I also am not some high-powered individual. I have never really felt a wish to chase riches, and I would have been a dreadful salesperson - you have a set of skills that I do not possess. I've mentioned before, I work in the charity sector; I need to be able to pay my bills without worrying, and I need to see that I'm doing something that helps someone else. So of course I am bound to be a lefty, and I do always have to factor in that plenty of people out there do not see the world the same way. I even understand why fiscal conservatism has been the more regular philosophy of the country.

You are right, we don't for definite how things are going to go, and your answer is sort of what I was trying to find out. Obviously, I reckon we had more negotiating power and influence as part of a larger group, you believe we can do better going solo. Time will tell. I also liked the EU for it being another step towards people viewing ourselves as a species rather than a group of nation states divided by things like language and skin colour, as that is the next stage of progress I think we ought to be making. So, while it was imperfect, nothing has ever been perfect in it's first iteration, and we ought to have been leading and shaping it rather than sending idiots like Farage to take a wage while not taking part. On top of that, we haven't lost a generation of young people to a fight with Europe since it was set up, which is either a great coincidence (unlikely, I think), or a great success of the Union.

See, I think this is the sort of debate that can be had - we can disagree strongly, but make actual points - and I was chasing because you equally appear to not be a dummy. What contributes nothing is the sort of drivel that Soccerman posts - I notice he popped up with a few good examples yesterday again - as just sitting around trying to wind up people who disagree with you is, well... you choose the pejorative. I've said before, I just scroll over anything that "JoePass" posts, as he has proven time and again that he has nothing whatsoever to say. At least I always read - and want to argue with - the stuff that you, or navypie for example, post, even if I really don't like your points. So the little digs are just a bit silly to my mind (without wanting to sound patronising).

Sorry - nearly forget the USA bit. Obviously I dislike Trump, and think he is not suitable for the job he has. I don't think I've really been anti-USA at any point, but I do dislike the idea of lowering our standards to theirs in terms of factory farming, for example. I'm happy for us to go get a wonderful trade deal with them, but I won't be happy if it includes more caged hens, "super-dairies", further privatisation of the health service or an explosion in drug costs, and any comcession to Trump's disbelief of climate change.

Last thing, while aware I have verbal diarrhoea; the one thing I really hate is the football-isation of all this. I went for a pint with a friend of mine who is an arch-conservative (economically) the other night. We are opposite ends of the spectrum, but it doesn't mean that I have to worship Corbyn and the entire Labour party, and he doesn't just come out full blue. Neither of us like Trump, or Boris, or people like Raab or Priti Patel. Neither of us think that Rebecca Long-Bailey is a good idea for Labour, or that Emily Thornberry would have been, and neither of us are impressed with the Democratic options at the moment. My point being, I get fed up of "I voted Brexit so Boris is brilliant and I must defend him", or "You voted remain so you must love Corbyn". Largely, I deplore the lack of talent at the top of both parties at the moment. There's about 2-3 people in each party that look to be competent to me, and that's a problem.

Excellent post mate

[seriouspie]

So be it

[magpie_mania]

Mr Mania, don't waste your time with Suckerman. He is incapable of debate. I never bother with him these days. It's all top show with him. I kid myself that beneath the brazen exterior lies a half decent County fan.

What amazes me is that anything negative posted, but backed up by reports etc is simply called 'Project fear', but at the same time arch-brexiters tell us that everything will be great, backed up by ..... Absolutely nothing!

[frenchmagpie]

I'm not a dummy, you're right, but I also am not some high-powered individual. I have never really felt a wish to chase riches, and I would have been a dreadful salesperson - you have a set of skills that I do not possess. I've mentioned before, I work in the charity sector; I need to be able to pay my bills without worrying, and I need to see that I'm doing something that helps someone else. So of course I am bound to be a lefty, and I do always have to factor in that plenty of people out there do not see the world the same way. I even understand why fiscal conservatism has been the more regular philosophy of the country.

You are right, we don't for definite how things are going to go, and your answer is sort of what I was trying to find out. Obviously, I reckon we had more negotiating power and influence as part of a larger group, you believe we can do better going solo. Time will tell. I also liked the EU for it being another step towards people viewing ourselves as a species rather than a group of nation states divided by things like language and skin colour, as that is the next stage of progress I think we ought to be making. So, while it was imperfect, nothing has ever been perfect in it's first iteration, and we ought to have been leading and shaping it rather than sending idiots like Farage to take a wage while not taking part. On top of that, we haven't lost a generation of young people to a fight with Europe since it was set up, which is either a great coincidence (unlikely, I think), or a great success of the Union.

See, I think this is the sort of debate that can be had - we can disagree strongly, but make actual points - and I was chasing because you equally appear to not be a dummy. What contributes nothing is the sort of drivel that Soccerman posts - I notice he popped up with a few good examples yesterday again - as just sitting around trying to wind up people who disagree with you is, well... you choose the pejorative. I've said before, I just scroll over anything that "JoePass" posts, as he has proven time and again that he has nothing whatsoever to say. At least I always read - and want to argue with - the stuff that you, or navypie for example, post, even if I really don't like your points. So the little digs are just a bit silly to my mind (without wanting to sound patronising).

Sorry - nearly forget the USA bit. Obviously I dislike Trump, and think he is not suitable for the job he has. I don't think I've really been anti-USA at any point, but I do dislike the idea of lowering our standards to theirs in terms of factory farming, for example. I'm happy for us to go get a wonderful trade deal with them, but I won't be happy if it includes more caged hens, "super-dairies", further privatisation of the health service or an explosion in drug costs, and any comcession to Trump's disbelief of climate change.

Last thing, while aware I have verbal diarrhoea; the one thing I really hate is the football-isation of all this. I went for a pint with a friend of mine who is an arch-conservative (economically) the other night. We are opposite ends of the spectrum, but it doesn't mean that I have to worship Corbyn and the entire Labour party, and he doesn't just come out full blue. Neither of us like Trump, or Boris, or people like Raab or Priti Patel. Neither of us think that Rebecca Long-Bailey is a good idea for Labour, or that Emily Thornberry would have been, and neither of us are impressed with the Democratic options at the moment. My point being, I get fed up of "I voted Brexit so Boris is brilliant and I must defend him", or "You voted remain so you must love Corbyn". Largely, I deplore the lack of talent at the top of both parties at the moment. There's about 2-3 people in each party that look to be competent to me, and that's a problem.

Respect. Well reasoned post.

[i961pie]

What amazes me is that anything negative posted, but backed up by reports etc is simply called 'Project fear', but at the same time arch-brexiters tell us that everything will be great, backed up by ..... Absolutely nothing!

The problem is everyone is putting in their twopenneth of what they THINK or what they WANT to happen depending on how they voted, but it is all guesswork no one knows yet.

[Elite_Pie]

I'm not a dummy, you're right, but I also am not some high-powered individual. I have never really felt a wish to chase riches, and I would have been a dreadful salesperson - you have a set of skills that I do not possess. I've mentioned before, I work in the charity sector; I need to be able to pay my bills without worrying, and I need to see that I'm doing something that helps someone else. So of course I am bound to be a lefty, and I do always have to factor in that plenty of people out there do not see the world the same way. I even understand why fiscal conservatism has been the more regular philosophy of the country.

You are right, we don't for definite how things are going to go, and your answer is sort of what I was trying to find out. Obviously, I reckon we had more negotiating power and influence as part of a larger group, you believe we can do better going solo. Time will tell. I also liked the EU for it being another step towards people viewing ourselves as a species rather than a group of nation states divided by things like language and skin colour, as that is the next stage of progress I think we ought to be making. So, while it was imperfect, nothing has ever been perfect in it's first iteration, and we ought to have been leading and shaping it rather than sending idiots like Farage to take a wage while not taking part. On top of that, we haven't lost a generation of young people to a fight with Europe since it was set up, which is either a great coincidence (unlikely, I think), or a great success of the Union.

See, I think this is the sort of debate that can be had - we can disagree strongly, but make actual points - and I was chasing because you equally appear to not be a dummy. What contributes nothing is the sort of drivel that Soccerman posts - I notice he popped up with a few good examples yesterday again - as just sitting around trying to wind up people who disagree with you is, well... you choose the pejorative. I've said before, I just scroll over anything that "JoePass" posts, as he has proven time and again that he has nothing whatsoever to say. At least I always read - and want to argue with - the stuff that you, or navypie for example, post, even if I really don't like your points. So the little digs are just a bit silly to my mind (without wanting to sound patronising).

Sorry - nearly forget the USA bit. Obviously I dislike Trump, and think he is not suitable for the job he has. I don't think I've really been anti-USA at any point, but I do dislike the idea of lowering our standards to theirs in terms of factory farming, for example. I'm happy for us to go get a wonderful trade deal with them, but I won't be happy if it includes more caged hens, "super-dairies", further privatisation of the health service or an explosion in drug costs, and any comcession to Trump's disbelief of climate change.

Last thing, while aware I have verbal diarrhoea; the one thing I really hate is the football-isation of all this. I went for a pint with a friend of mine who is an arch-conservative (economically) the other night. We are opposite ends of the spectrum, but it doesn't mean that I have to worship Corbyn and the entire Labour party, and he doesn't just come out full blue. Neither of us like Trump, or Boris, or people like Raab or Priti Patel. Neither of us think that Rebecca Long-Bailey is a good idea for Labour, or that Emily Thornberry would have been, and neither of us are impressed with the Democratic options at the moment. My point being, I get fed up of "I voted Brexit so Boris is brilliant and I must defend him", or "You voted remain so you must love Corbyn". Largely, I deplore the lack of talent at the top of both parties at the moment. There's about 2-3 people in each party that look to be competent to me, and that's a problem.

All I will say is that this post in all probability very eloquently represents the thoughts of most of us who have a political leaning that's a bit left of centre. On the other hand we have Soccerman's "suck it up losers, you benefit scrounging scumbags were beaten" one liner.

Make your own mind up.

[BigFatPie]

All I will say is that this post in all probability very eloquently represents the thoughts of most of us who have a political leaning that's a bit left of centre. On the other hand we have Soccerman's "suck it up losers, you benefit scrounging scumbags were beaten" one liner.

Make your own mind up.

Agreed. Good posts all round.