(Anti)social distancing

[BelfastAndy]

I've spotted a few bull-5hitters on here lately........

[BelfastAndy]

(Across the forum - not this thread in particular).

Yes......YOU!

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

My point in starting the thread was not to have "a geenral moan" but to ask the (very pertinent IMHO) question, by way of a statement, what folks felt about the matter of social distancing and in particular how it might be achieved in a football stadium context.

I still believe that it can be, and that (as per some statement made by others) the risk associated with a "managed" mass gathering where only ST holders (as an example) were admitted is far less than the unmanaged gathersing associated with BLM, Pride, the re-opening of pubs etc, most of which seems to be accepted and which (certainly in the case of BLM and counter-protest gatherings over a fortnight ago) appears not to have generated the feared spike in infections

It could be achieved but it won’t be as the clubs are replaying only due to the TV money. It is also complicated by the fact that the stadium certificates have two factors P (physical condition) and S (safety management) - under the S factor there are possibly issues.

The police and other contractors don’t really want crowds back at grounds and if you follow the guidance and guidelines it becomes potentially uneconomic on top of the fear of not meeting public health advice.

If you look at the actual law - there is little to stop the grounds being open - take a look at the health protection (coronavirus, restrictions) (England) Rehulaeioms 2020 which is where the legal restrictions were/are imposed.

Most of the test is advice or guidance. The Government wants everyone to think it is mandatory but guidance is only guidance. The preferred legal view is this becomes a new consideration to be taken into account when updating risk assessments - if you look at the COVID 19 secure guidelines issued to the sectors it all suggests a process for carrying out specific risk assessments for a given sector. Most people are being very cautious but that doesn’t mean that is the only or the right approach.

A lot of sectors were not subject to lockdown in the way others were - construction being one. Despite this a lot of construction jobs stopped on site - the government wanted to get those back on site way before the other easing measures. The Construction Leadership Council was tasked with issuing updated guidance - it took it 3 attempts as the first two attempts were too cautious and unworkable - they suggested 2m distancing at all times - that was changed and the sector is largely back with some teams working in close proximity yet there has been no suggestion of a spike in that sector.

As I said before supermarkets have been open throughout and to begin with they had to develop rules much of it on their own - again no suggestion of spikes there.

So to answer your question, yes it is possible but no it won’t happen as the rules and guidance are not understood and too many people needed to get things back up and running don’t want to see it happen.

Look at schools - I can see no logical rational reason why schools are not back by now given the risk profile and that for those who are vulnerable special steps could be taken. If they can’t get that right yet sports stadia I suspect will have to wait a while.

A lot of supporters won’t want to attend games either as the Government messaging was so effective it scared many people to their core.

On the tubes in London last week there were 4 or 5 to a carriage at most times and the area of London where I work was like a ghost town with few people on the pavements. Canon Street station had about 50 staff outside in pink hi vis vests to manage about the same number of customers per hour - if that.

I suspect we have a way to go before confidence returns.

If you want an example of how unclear the COVID response look at the social distance - for a while we were one of 3 counties with a 2m “rule” with other countries varying between 1, 1.2, 1.4, 1.5 and 1.8m with the WHO saying 1m.

The lack of clarity and agreement makes people fearful and cautious. Until confidence returns it is hard to see meaningful changes. The pandemic is possibly a great example of how modern society struggles to understand risk and what levels are acceptable and how to mange that acceptable risk. A lot of policy influencers seem to want to create a zero risk world.

[MrsORichSenior]

If you surrender to the purveyors of "project fear", yes. Conduct your own risk assessment as we ALL have done in life before Covid-19, and maybe you won't be.

Risk assessment ?

Having been to the Den/Millwall over the years as a Leeds fan via train and tube and
the Midlands hot spots of Villa Park,St Andrews plus wading through the worst set of locals aka Wolverhampton Wanderers and sampled real danger to life and limb via a walk/sprint up Tottenham High Road let alone various Euro Leeds campaigns - at 57 I'm not prepared to get waylaid by a trip to my local Hyper Market for my luxury weekly item of prized Heinz beans to test your Covid 19 theory just yet,WTF11 but I do wear a mask,glasses and gloves until I'm told otherwise.

I do think advice has been patchy in the UK depending were you live as in France it's been consistent and still is even 'tho it's now eased.

Not a vaccine fan in general but I'll read all advice etc on Covid 19 then consider my families opinions including my Mum (in her 80's) before deciding.

MOT

[asturianblanco]

Here in Spain with our inept communist big brother govt its compulsory to wear masks everywhere, all the time, FOREVER. With the exception of bars! so people walk into a small crowded bar, drink and socialise, then walk outside into the good, spacious fresh air that nature has provided us and put their stupid masks on like the good prolatariat that they are! you couldnt make it up!

I work all round europe at big events with tens of thousands of people, music festivals, tattoo conventions, comiccons etc, so thats f**ked then.

[WTF11]

It could be achieved but it won’t be as the clubs are replaying only due to the TV money. It is also complicated by the fact that the stadium certificates have two factors P (physical condition) and S (safety management) - under the S factor there are possibly issues.

The police and other contractors don’t really want crowds back at grounds and if you follow the guidance and guidelines it becomes potentially uneconomic on top of the fear of not meeting public health advice.

If you look at the actual law - there is little to stop the grounds being open - take a look at the health protection (coronavirus, restrictions) (England) Rehulaeioms 2020 which is where the legal restrictions were/are imposed.

Most of the test is advice or guidance. The Government wants everyone to think it is mandatory but guidance is only guidance. The preferred legal view is this becomes a new consideration to be taken into account when updating risk assessments - if you look at the COVID 19 secure guidelines issued to the sectors it all suggests a process for carrying out specific risk assessments for a given sector. Most people are being very cautious but that doesn’t mean that is the only or the right approach.

A lot of sectors were not subject to lockdown in the way others were - construction being one. Despite this a lot of construction jobs stopped on site - the government wanted to get those back on site way before the other easing measures. The Construction Leadership Council was tasked with issuing updated guidance - it took it 3 attempts as the first two attempts were too cautious and unworkable - they suggested 2m distancing at all times - that was changed and the sector is largely back with some teams working in close proximity yet there has been no suggestion of a spike in that sector.

As I said before supermarkets have been open throughout and to begin with they had to develop rules much of it on their own - again no suggestion of spikes there.

So to answer your question, yes it is possible but no it won’t happen as the rules and guidance are not understood and too many people needed to get things back up and running don’t want to see it happen.

Look at schools - I can see no logical rational reason why schools are not back by now given the risk profile and that for those who are vulnerable special steps could be taken. If they can’t get that right yet sports stadia I suspect will have to wait a while.

A lot of supporters won’t want to attend games either as the Government messaging was so effective it scared many people to their core.

On the tubes in London last week there were 4 or 5 to a carriage at most times and the area of London where I work was like a ghost town with few people on the pavements. Canon Street station had about 50 staff outside in pink hi vis vests to manage about the same number of customers per hour - if that.

I suspect we have a way to go before confidence returns.

If you want an example of how unclear the COVID response look at the social distance - for a while we were one of 3 counties with a 2m “rule” with other countries varying between 1, 1.2, 1.4, 1.5 and 1.8m with the WHO saying 1m.

The lack of clarity and agreement makes people fearful and cautious. Until confidence returns it is hard to see meaningful changes. The pandemic is possibly a great example of how modern society struggles to understand risk and what levels are acceptable and how to mange that acceptable risk. A lot of policy influencers seem to want to create a zero risk world.

I think (just think, mind) that we are violently agreeing with each other (for once), as in, yes it could be done but it's on the "too hard" pile.

As to revenue, we all know the PL clubs can make money without ever letting a fan through the turnstiles. But thats not the case with teh lower leagues, including the Championship. If ST holders were the only ones allowed in, then it would be legitimate for the clubs to suspend and ST refunds, not big bucks I'll grant you, but something, and there would at least be something of an atmosphere, sadly lacking at present (and I don't just suggest that for the Championship, but all the lower leagues).

Unless something changes, (the outlook on safety rules for instance), there is little prospect of ever having fans back in stadiums, and I for one wouldn't want to resign myself to only ever being able to watch Leeds on the TV, broadcast from an empty stadium which could be just about anywhere for all the relevance stadiums would have (and paying Sky stupid amounts of money as they would inevitably have a monopoly on ALL football, not just the PL, as they have the deepest pockets and KNOW they would be on a winner commercially)

[WTF11]

Here in Spain with our inept communist big brother govt its compulsory to wear masks everywhere, all the time, FOREVER. With the exception of bars! so people walk into a small crowded bar, drink and socialise, then walk outside into the good, spacious fresh air that nature has provided us and put their stupid masks on like the good prolatariat that they are! you couldnt make it up!

I work all round europe at big events with tens of thousands of people, music festivals, tattoo conventions, comiccons etc, so thats f**ked then.

Here in the UK, we were f00ked the moment Laura Doomsberg and her mates started to take the government to task for not "doing something" (anything, just anything, to get her off Boris' back!), like building Nightingale hospitals that couldn't be adquately staffed and turned more patients away than were treated before being mothballed,m at what cost?

Panic stricken headless chickens, and we not only elected them, we follow their "advice" even though they (and those who provide it) don't follow it themselves, lunacy, collective lunacy.

[ozleeds]

No, bubonic plague comes from rats.

Ohh no well they have this also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY-3zzlAeCk

[Jezleeds]

Some of you may remember a few weeks ago i mentioned how social distancing was being ignored during lockdown around where i was working Leicester - the actual epicentre of the current outbreak.

It was pretty obvious at that point there would be repercussions - can't see it being much different elsewhere - soon there will be a spike in Liverpool, Bournemouth, and amongst those who did the protests a couple of weeks ago - heading into August when the pubs reopening will start to work its way through.

Leicester obviously the first and worst due to a number of factors of non-compliance in the area, but other places will follow. Already happening in the US, Spain, Italy too.

I've tried to keep a balance on how i respond to this virus, but it's clearly pretty tenacious and deadly (in certain cases) and it's also clear to me that only half the population seems to realise this, whilst the other half is doing their best to stick to the rules, however unclear they are sometimes.

[whitestomper45]

The main hot spots in Leicester were "sweat shops" employing many at £ 3.50 per hour