O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Andy_Faber]

Same old Tricky. Resort to CAPITALS, accusations, division, evasiveness and YouTube.
One distraction after another. Some things never change.

I’ll give you one last opportunity. MA has nailed it...he’s absolutely bang on topic and has provided nine totally objective examples of the ‘Government’s handling of Covid’. Two are very successful, the other seven appear to be major failures. For the third time...what are your thoughts on that?

Swale has done a similar thing before and so have I, but neither of us quite as concisely as MA.
Each time you respond all you do is shift the blame and start moaning about the ‘alternatives’.
This time you’ve surpassed yourself and started banging on about Corbyn again...and even Diane Abbott’s shoes!

So...try and stay on topic and give us your thoughts on what many people regard as the Government’s failings, as clearly described earlier today, over Covid.

Far be it from me to offer a balanced view, but I will anyway.

MA is right on all counts, the only one I'd take slight issue with would be PPE because HMG were genuinely living with a new beast at the time and few countries covered themselves in glory

TTR is also right, it doesn't seem to have dented the Conservatories/Boris' popularity too much

[MadAmster]

Far be it from me to offer a balanced view, but I will anyway.

MA is right on all counts, the only one I'd take slight issue with would be PPE because HMG were genuinely living with a new beast at the time and few countries covered themselves in glory

My comments on the PPE were aimed at the fact that they have now given PPE contracts to a number of firms owned by friends, family and donors to the party who had no PPE experience and have cocked up the whole PPE issue costing the UK in excess of £100M. The government cock up was not putting out tenders for the contracts, choosing, instead, to put money into the back pockets of F & & donrs rather than giving the contracts to companies with a track record in supplying PPE.

Pandemic or not, the firms that got those contracts got them through varying degrees of nepotism. Totally unacceptable.

[ramAnag]

Far be it from me to offer a balanced view, but I will anyway.

MA is right on all counts, the only one I'd take slight issue with would be PPE because HMG were genuinely living with a new beast at the time and few countries covered themselves in glory

TTR is also right, it doesn't seem to have dented the Conservatories/Boris' popularity too much

I’m not sure anyone has doubted that the Johnson Government is riding a wave of popularity on the basis of their success on the vaccine front...and deservedly so.
A truly balanced view however would surely take account of their failings...the alleged scandal over friends, family and donors especially imo.

[Andy_Faber]

My comments on the PPE were aimed at the fact that they have now given PPE contracts to a number of firms owned by friends, family and donors to the party who had no PPE experience and have cocked up the whole PPE issue costing the UK in excess of £100M. The government cock up was not putting out tenders for the contracts, choosing, instead, to put money into the back pockets of F & & donrs rather than giving the contracts to companies with a track record in supplying PPE.

Pandemic or not, the firms that got those contracts got them through varying degrees of nepotism. Totally unacceptable.

Agreed but you covered that in another point - IMO if they’d gone to their mates and made as good a job as has been made of the vaccines I think most folk would have been less critical

[Andy_Faber]

I’m not sure anyone has doubted that the Johnson Government is riding a wave of popularity on the basis of their success on the vaccine front...and deservedly so.
A truly balanced view however would surely take account of their failings...the alleged scandal over friends, family and donors especially imo.

My view was a view not an opinion, trying not to offer as many of those as in the past.

[Trickytreesreds]

Same old Tricky. Resort to CAPITALS, accusations, division, evasiveness and YouTube.
One distraction after another. Some things never change.

I’ll give you one last opportunity. MA has nailed it...he’s absolutely bang on topic and has provided nine totally objective examples of the ‘Government’s handling of Covid’. Two are very successful, the other seven appear to be major failures. For the third time...what are your thoughts on that?

Swale has done a similar thing before and so have I, but neither of us quite as concisely as MA.
Each time you respond all you do is shift the blame and start moaning about the ‘alternatives’.
This time you’ve surpassed yourself and started banging on about Corbyn again...and even Diane Abbott’s shoes!

So...try and stay on topic and give us your thoughts on what many people regard as the Government’s failings, as clearly described earlier today, over Covid.

Its evasive to you, because you don't want to hear it.
Yes the list contains lots of fails. Never in doubt.
But I have had many a conversation on this with folk. All acceept, that there is no precedence on this for comparison.
Mistakes made, but were they really mistakes at the time of action?

Your problem is RA, that your predjudice against Conservatives, will always swell your anger to anything they do that you don't like.

You are actually the prime example of what has gone wrong with Labour. It has been infiltrated by Liberal/WOKE/University champagne socialists and totally forgot its roots. It focuses on the minority, rather than the majority,
Out of touch and out of its mind. It is why the red wall collapsed. The common man is sick to death of hearing the drivel spouted by the London bubble.

Whether you like my stance on the alternative argument is irrelevent. The concensus of the population shows, that they have much to fear from removing the Tories at this time.
The voter can wield his/her power every 4 years. It is something that the EU doesn't provide and that turned public opinion against them.
Put a credible opposition on the table and they would romp it, using the MA examples.

But there isn't one, so moan away old bean.
That's how poor todays politicians are.

[ramAnag]

Its evasive to you, because you don't want to hear it.
Yes the list contains lots of fails. Never in doubt.
But I have had many a conversation on this with folk. All acceept, that there is no precedence on this for comparison.
Mistakes made, but were they really mistakes at the time of action?

Your problem is RA, that your predjudice against Conservatives, will always swell your anger to anything they do that you don't like.

You are actually the prime example of what has gone wrong with Labour. It has been infiltrated by Liberal/WOKE/University champagne socialists and totally forgot its roots. It focuses on the minority, rather than the majority,
Out of touch and out of its mind. It is why the red wall collapsed. The common man is sick to death of hearing the drivel spouted by the London bubble.

Whether you like my stance on the alternative argument is irrelevent. The concensus of the population shows, that they have much to fear from removing the Tories at this time.
The voter can wield his/her power every 4 years. It is something that the EU doesn't provide and that turned public opinion against them.
Put a credible opposition on the table and they would romp it, using the MA examples.

But there isn't one, so moan away old bean.
That's how poor todays politicians are.

...and your problem, old fruit, is that you just don’t want to address the issue. The topic is ‘The Government’s handling of Covid’ which, on the evidence of MA’s appraisal is approximately 25% successful and 75% highly questionable.

Instead of responding to that, in the last 24 hours you’ve just blathered on about irrelevances such as, with no word of exaggeration...
Sturgeon...VDL...troops with broom handles...Blair...the EU flag...Corbynism...the Liberal/Left...Geobbels...BLM...Star Trek...Corbynated chicken...Diane Abbott’s shoes...Brexit is done...WOKE...University champagne socialists...blah, blah blah!

It’s just irrelevant tub thumping nonsense, Tricky...nothing at all to do with the handling of the pandemic, and a perfect illustration of why I’d chosen not to ‘debate’ with you...a position I shall now retire to again to avoid wasting any more time.

[Ram59]

My comments on the PPE were aimed at the fact that they have now given PPE contracts to a number of firms owned by friends, family and donors to the party who had no PPE experience and have cocked up the whole PPE issue costing the UK in excess of £100M. The government cock up was not putting out tenders for the contracts, choosing, instead, to put money into the back pockets of F & & donrs rather than giving the contracts to companies with a track record in supplying PPE.

Pandemic or not, the firms that got those contracts got them through varying degrees of nepotism. Totally unacceptable.

That may have worked in a perfect world MA, but at the time everyone in the world was trying to buy PPE, it wasn't a case of putting it out for tender, like the EU have found out with the vaccines. Established PPE companies entire production schedules were quickly taken up, so then you fall back on your 'contacts'. Many companies with no previous PPE experience have turned their hand to quickly setting up production, whether you select one of these successful companies would have partially been down to luck. Naturally your 'contacts' will be friends, friends of friends, family, friends of family, suppliers of other items etc, etc. There was no time for a proper procurement procedure, corners were cut and unfortunately it wasn't the same level of success as the vaccination programme.

How much was the PPE a failure in terms of actual supply, we had plenty of examples of individual medics complaining of shortages, but were these isolated incidents caused by isolated local supply issues? I know for a fact that my friend, a manager in a clerical NHS department with no physical connection to the covid operation, was appalled by the general behaviour of her staff, including helping themselves to PPE intended for the front line staff. I doubt that this was an isolated incidence, then you will have failures on a local level when distributing supplies. How many of these well publicised incidences of shortages occurred when the 'victim's' first phone call, was not to the next person in the supply chain, but to the media, for whatever reason? It's still happening now, people who have slipped through the vaccination net are preferring to contact the media, rather than a simple phone call to their GP.

The one thing that points to the PPE supply not being the total failure that it appears, is that throughout the pandemic, official ONS figures have shown that NHS staff, including front line, are no more likely to die from covid than any other occupation. If we are to believe that staff were without PPE, then surely these death figures would have been much higher?

[MadAmster]

There was the one company, with absolutely no experience, that go one of the first PPE contracts worth, if I remember correctly, around £40M. They even supplied some PPE. Every piece was refused by the NHS as beiing sub-standard. When spending that amount of money, wouldn't your first thought be "send me a dozen of each for quality inspection" prior to spending £40 minus the compnay "costs" and profit? Pretty obvious that didn't happen.

I have no PPE experience either but I think I would have looked at places like the other 2 large EM cities where they have the sort of expertise necessary to produce PPE. One has centuries experience in producing lace and lace products. The other has thousands of small clothes factories. Moving to PPE production would not have been anything like q quantum shift for them.

It's not rocket science. Just takes a little bit of thought.

[Andy_Faber]

I have no PPE experience either but I think I would have looked at places like the other 2 large EM cities where they have the sort of expertise necessary to produce PPE. One has centuries experience in producing lace and lace products. The other has thousands of small clothes factories. Moving to PPE production would not have been anything like q quantum shift for them.

It's not rocket science. Just takes a little bit of thought.

Just to demonstrate that there are no easy answers, I presume you mean those two EM cities where many of the ‘factories’ employ women at significantly below minimum wage and in some cases pay directly into their husbands’ bank accounts, two amongst many transgressions constantly being chased by trading standards and other agencies. I get that info from a friend in the (lace) industry who’s customers (he’s a designer) actually considered ‘inshoring’ work to U.K. recently because the U.K. pay rates are lower than their usual ones - in Turkey...

So, popping our NHS into PPE made in Leicester using modern slavery and making rich businessmen richer? Shall I tell Nurse Lovelock?

Just making a point that ‘it’s complicated’