Reply With QuoteDo you really think FloJo was worth as much as zero??
Hall Of Fame
Jeez, Swale...you could have written a novel in the time you’ve spent on this, and please stop with the insults...always a sure sign that someone has lost the argument.
I haven’t said half the things you’ve suggested for starters. I haven’t ever said ‘it’s all Lampard’s fault’, I haven’t ever tried to ‘lay the blame solely on him’, haven’t ever blamed him for ‘the club’s transfer and wage budget’ or suggested that I’d be ‘happy’ if we’d ‘finished mid table’. If you think I have, and have an afternoon to waste, please show me where I’ve said any of those things.
What I have said is that ultimately he left us in a mess. He was with us for twelve months, made a marginal improvement on the finishes achieved by Clement/Wassall and Rowett and left us with gaping holes in the squad because the player of the season and two players who had contributed about 23 goals between them promptly upped and left too...aka ‘he didn’t leave the club in a good place’...which you have acknowledged and agreed with.
Beyond that I’ve questioned his actual transfer dealings. I really haven’t got the time to check this out, but as memory serves these are the players he brought in and the marks (out of ten) they deserve...just imo...Waghorn (7), Marriott (4), Holmes (6), Evans (4), FloJo (0). I’d also query the wisdom of some of the departures but that too is just a matter of opinion.
So...what I’ve actually said is...Lampard didn’t leave us in a good place and his dealings in the transfer market weren’t up to much. I’d let it go now if I were you, but if you insist on continuing ...those are the only two points for you to address, and you’ve already agreed with the first one.
Hall Of Fame
Do you really think FloJo was worth as much as zero??
Hall Of Fame
He's not alone. Lampard was ****, we played like crap, and he built nothing for our future. Unless you're a Chelsea fan, then pull your head out of your arse and look at the **** he leftOriginally Posted by swaledale
Hall Of Fame
yet we got to the play off final and lost narrowly to team only just relegated from the prem? I'd like more ****e managers like him them. As for building for Derbys future, thats his job is it? You know that of course as you were present when he was given the job and his objectives set?
Hall Of Fame
So...what I’ve actually said is...Lampard didn’t leave us in a good place and his dealings in the transfer market weren’t up to much. I’d let it go now if I were you, but if you insist on continuing ...those are the only two points for you to address, and you’ve already agreed with the first one.[/QUOTE]
Mm then what you actually post clearly isn't what you mean to say then because you listed a whole range of things which you clearly stated was Lampard's fault, thats blooming him in most peoples eyes.
No I said his departure didn't leave the club in a good place, not "a mess" simply because yet another change of manager wasn't helpful. However, I don't blame Lampard for taking an opportunity to go to Chelsea, any manager would have gone for that.
The departure of the players has already been discussed, your blaming that on Lampard, when you have no evidence that that it was his decision either in part or completely, you ignore the impact of FFP and the fact that the club had to reduce wages and generate money from sales. You don't know that Lampard wanted rid, he had to wheel and deal within financial constraints, those players may well have left whoever was the manager.
Lampard's dealings in the transfer market were no better or worse than previous managers, but again the players brought in were actually good players for their previous clubs I don't remember much moaning by you or anyone else when they were acquired, but like many such players before and I'll name Anya, Butterfield, Johnson as just 3 who we spent millions on and who rarely performed as expected.
Given that the clubs transfer dealings have seen millions wasted on players who when they played for us were average at best, and that has happened consistently whoever has been the manager, I think the blame for that must lay at the door of the clubs scouting and player recruitment team.
The point I'm making is that you have in your posts blamed Lampard for using loans, when realistically it was the only option. For his transfer dealings, when previous managers have signed as many players who have not performed. For the departure of players, when in some cases it was needed to get rid of high earners to reduce the wage bill and in others the players themselves may have wanted to go.
In shot its a simplistic argument to point the finger at Lampard.
In footballing terms he got us to the play off final where we lost by one goal to the team that had been relegated from the prem the previous season and had better players due to their resources,
Hall Of Fame
I give up...where is this ‘long list’, where have I said things I ‘didn’t mean’, what the hell have Anya, Butterfield and Johnson got to do with it (other managers’ mistakes and wastefulness are entirely irrelevant to FL’s)?
You can’t just make things up to try and win an argument.
I haven’t ‘pointed the (simplistic) finger at Lampard’ for anything other than his own failings and the knock on effect that created, and I haven’t ‘blamed’ him for using loans...they were all very good players who got us to within ninety minutes of success. I doubt they were at all cheap so I’m not sure they were the ‘only option’ but that’s not the point...they were loans, to try and get us up. Once we’d failed they all left, soon to be followed by Lampard himself and all that did was leave the club with a great many problems - yes, a ‘mess’ - for the following season.
Last edited by ramAnag; 01-11-2020 at 03:38 PM.
Hall Of Fame
**** me, don't know what your performance management knowledge is, but if ****ing up the future is top of your objectives, no wonder you're loaded!
Hall Of Fame
Clearly you gave up on the argument because you failed to answer any of the points I made!
I suggest you reread your posts because they very much indicate that you blame Lampard for leaving the club as you say in a mess! Indeed you have repeated it above, thats a simplistic opinion.
What is it about the use of loan players who bring a quality to the club, which it hasn't got the funds to buy and pay the wages required that you don't understand? I'm sure the loans were a hell of a lot cheaper than attempting buy equal quality players on a permanent transfer and then be saddled with their wages for 3 plus years!
That would have been fine if we'd been promoted, but would (assuming the funds were available) have meant the club falling foul of FFP rules which it was struggling to keep to, hence Mels sale and lease back of the ground.
So your assertion then (contrary to all available evidence) is that rather than bring in 3 loans in order to meet the objective of getting promotion, Lampard should have invested in permanent transfers? This is despite, as you have said yourself, such transfers being a risk, players bought in cost fees and long term wages?
Is that what you mean by saying your not sure loans were the only option? Mind you if your not sure, how are you able to definitively state that it was a mistake to use loans?
I refer to my post #83 as to the long list of assumptions that you have made in your posts regarding Lampard!
With regard to Anya Butterfield and Johnson it was clear that I was saying that the club has a history of buying players that were supposedly quality for their clubs, but didn't consistently produce the goods at Derby. This has happened under a succession of managers, now if it had only happened under Lampard, I'd say you might be able to point a finger at him, but as its a pattern under a number of previous managers that doesn't support your view.
So to sum up,
Your not sure if loans were the only option but feel able to criticise Lampard for their use.
You have no idea why there was a delay in Lampard leaving but it was his fault.
You expect a manager to be loyal to a club even if a better opportunity comes and he acts properly and according to his contract in taking up that opportunity.
You know the club has issues with complying with FFP, yet believe that this has nothing to do with why players left or why loans were used.
You believe that Lampard had total control over tranfer ins and outs irrespective of any need to comply with FFP
You believe that a manager and therefore Lampard is solely responsible for identifying and buying players and that any "duds" are his fault?
You believe that the squad Lampard took over from Rowatt was good enough?
Finally you think Lampard was only a "marginal" improvement in actually getting the club to a play off final.
The club knew that the loans wouldn't be there for next season, one would have thought the club would have planned for that, indeed they may have done but Cocu may not have fancied the planned replacements!
If the club was in a mess then thats down to those who run the club, manage the finances and sanction the acquisition of players. Isn't it just possible that Lampard came into the club had a difficult financial juggling act and di the best he could in the circumstances?
Yes it was unfortunate he left for Chelsea and that wasn't helpful, but say he left a mess is at best based on assumptions and at worst an unsubstantiated opinon.
Hall Of Fame
So thats a no then?
Hall Of Fame
Wow...you must be approaching 3000 words now. You’re not Frank Lampard Snr or Uncle ‘arry in disguise are you?
You also seem to have developed the politicians’ strategy of deliberate misinterpretation to try and substantiate your argument and I really haven’t got the time to answer each and every point...it would mean writing as much as you and, frankly, life’s too short.
With that in mind I’ll just address your final four points, which I’m assuming is what you rest your case on.
1. Lampard was only a ‘marginal’ and questionable improvement on what went before. He finished in the same league position and with one less point than Rowett had twelve months earlier, but he took us to the final rather than the semi final. That, by anyone’s definition is a ‘marginal’ improvement.
2. How and at what point could the club start planning for life without the loanees? In the immediate aftermath of Wembley it wasn’t obvious that Lampard was going to leave and had he stayed it seems quite likely that Tomori at least, possibly Wilson too, would have returned. Who knows? His initially unforeseen but ultimately dragged out departure hardly helped out with the club’s ability to plan...that’s kind of the point.
3. See above. Yes it is possible that Lampard had to deal with a ‘difficult financial juggling act’ although that would presumably have been partially alleviated by the significant sale of Vydra. He may well have ‘done his best’ but he spent a lot of money and, as I’ve pointed out, his transfer purchases were not very impressive were they?
4. ‘Unfortunate’ and unhelpful? Hmmm...yet again I think that’s what I’ve been saying, albeit in rather fewer words than you.
Do I blame him for leaving to go to a bigger and ‘better’ club...no...it happens in all walks of life...but dress it up however you like, the way in which Lampard went left us in a mess, and that’s not ‘unsubstantiated assumption’...it’s just fact. The timing of his departure left us with huge wholes to fill and very little time to do it and the signings he actually made were, as I’ve already described, imo ‘mixed’ at best.
Footymad Forums offer you the chance to interact and discuss all things football with fellow fans from around the world, and share your views on footballing issues from the latest, breaking transfer rumours to the state of the game at international level and everything in between.
Whether your team is battling it out for the Premier League title or struggling for League survival, there's a forum for you!
Gooners, Mackems, Tractor Boys - you're all welcome, please just remember to respect the opinions of others.
Click here for a full list of the hundreds of forums available to you
The forums are free to join, although you must play fair and abide by the rules explained here, otherwise your ability to post may be temporarily or permanently revoked.
So what are you waiting for? Register now and join the debate!
(these forums are not actively moderated, so if you wish to report any comment made by another member please report it.)
Posting Permissions