Millwall today?

[MadAmster]

CKR stands for the "protest", giving what used to be known as a "black power" salute. Not been slated, rightly so IMO, by anybody. As and when I can watch a game at Pride Park again I will certainly have words with anybody being openly racist.

[swaledale]

the chairman does have a good point there, the problem arises in the fact that it isn't the same point made by others. Like most folk here, it would appear, I'm fed up with BLM (and blm) being rammed down my throat by the media, (personally I take it as an insult given the way my life has taken kits course). I repeat, most of the backlash is not against black people its against the media/authorities' Orwellian attempts to condition the masses.

The 'message' (to paraphrase) is that 'all men are created equal under God' which has done me fine since I was 5 but which I know fair minded folk really struggle with at present

You are kind of missing the point - never mind that even major organised religions seem to have issues with actually living by that phrase! It does strike me as being a bit "holier than thou"

But in the case of Millwall, the club expressly stated that their players were taking the knee was not political. Its only hit the media because of "fans" booing.

So its done you fine, from a white persons perspective but you do appear to feel threatened somehow judging by your comments on your other posts - there is no media or authority orwellian agenda or attempts to condition the masses! For a start a lot of the media and indeed the current government are hardly over supportive of the matter beyond paying lip service to "equality"

You do seem extraordinary sensitive about things such as the race and ethnicity of media presenters, seemingly on the basis that this doesn't reflect your world experience, but then you go on to describe your world view as wide. Not sure how it's been "rammed" down your throat either, one can take as much cognizance of these things as one chooses, personally it has never bothered me, but then maybe I don't feel threatened by folks who are different, theres room for all in this world.

Most folk on here are older white folk who I suspect have not come to terms with a multi ethnic society and most likely never will. Not wanting to appear overtly racist, they couch criticism in terms of "it's political" etc.

Of course the fact that BAME people by and large get a worse deal in life and face unacceptable prejudice from white people is "political" after all politics is how things get changed, it was government who delivered the Race Relations Act, but this taking the knee isn't that.

Sure challenge is good but why is this matter bugging people? Those "fans" weren't making a challenge they were booing their own players FFS!

Theres a world of difference between some of the overt and extreme politics that some BLM factions seem to express and a simple symbolic protest that keeps the issue of racism in the public eye.

[Rob_the_Ram]

CKR stands for the "protest", giving what used to be known as a "black power" salute. Not been slated, rightly so IMO, by anybody. As and when I can watch a game at Pride Park again I will certainly have words with anybody being openly racist.

I don't think anyone dare question the fist in the air stuff.
Much like questioning the taking of a knee in the first place.

[ramAnag]

the chairman does have a good point there, the problem arises in the fact that it isn't the same point made by others. Like most folk here, it would appear, I'm fed up with BLM (and blm) being rammed down my throat by the media, (personally I take it as an insult given the way my life has taken kits course). I repeat, most of the backlash is not against black people its against the media/authorities' Orwellian attempts to condition the masses.

The 'message' (to paraphrase) is that 'all men are created equal under God' which has done me fine since I was 5 but which I know fair minded folk really struggle with at present

The way your life has ‘taken it’s course’ isn’t really relevant, Andy. I’m sure you don’t need reminding of the need to stand against racism/aka have it ‘rammed down my throat by the media’, but others, as was proved at Millwall, do. Nothing remotely ‘Orwellian’ about it.


I recognise the ‘message’, Andy but I’m sorry, it’s just not true is it? Leaving the fairly major question of God’s existence to one side, there are just so many examples, some related to ethnicity and colour...many not, of how we’re not ‘created equal’.

Sadly what has happened since Saturday afternoon has polarised things further. In my opinion that’s not been caused by those supporting BLM but we’re rapidly reaching a stage where if you’re not ‘anti-racist’ you are, by definition, ‘racist’. I’m not sure how helpful that’s going to be but it’s probably true.

[Andy_Faber]

The way your life has ‘taken it’s course’ isn’t really relevant, Andy. I’m sure you don’t need reminding of the need to stand against racism/aka have it ‘rammed down my throat by the media’, but others, as was proved at Millwall, do. Nothing remotely ‘Orwellian’ about it.


I recognise the ‘message’, Andy but I’m sorry, it’s just not true is it? Leaving the fairly major question of God’s existence to one side, there are just so many examples, some related to ethnicity and colour...many not, of how we’re not ‘created equal’.

Sadly what has happened since Saturday afternoon has polarised things further. In my opinion that’s not been caused by those supporting BLM but we’re rapidly reaching a stage where if you’re not ‘anti-racist’ you are, by definition, ‘racist’. I’m not sure how helpful that’s going to be but it’s probably true.

All worthwhile debate but you misunderstand that the all created equal is an instruction as much as a statement, so how I should see others not how they should see themselves

[ramAnag]

All worthwhile debate but you misunderstand that the all created equal is an instruction as much as a statement, so how I should see others not how they should see themselves

But, hand on heart, you don’t actually believe that do you? None of us actually see everyone as being ‘created equal’ do we?
The evidence is all around us that people aren’t ‘created equal’...the (possibly idealistic) ‘trick’, imo, is to try and ensure that class, culture, colour, physical disadvantage etc do not provide insurmountable obstacles to some notion of equality and fulfilment. BLM is seeking to address two, possibly three, of those obstacles.

[Andy_Faber]

CKR stands for the "protest", giving what used to be known as a "black power" salute. Not been slated, rightly so IMO, by anybody. As and when I can watch a game at Pride Park again I will certainly have words with anybody being openly racist.

I mentioned this yesterday and said ‘good for him’, he’s making his own stand rather than just following like sheep/lemmings

[swaledale]

But, hand on heart, you don’t actually believe that do you? None of us actually see everyone as being ‘created equal’ do we?
The evidence is all around us that people aren’t ‘created equal’...the (possibly idealistic) ‘trick’, imo, is to try and ensure that class, culture, colour, physical disadvantage etc do not provide insurmountable obstacles to some notion of equality and fulfilment. BLM is seeking to address two, possibly three, of those obstacles.

Regrettably rA reasoned discussion isn't going to change minds anytime soon, though on the other hand maybe if BAME people on TV and protests like this irritate him then at least he is unable to ignore the issue!

But lets face it, if you can keep a straight face whilst using the term "broadly non racist" or accuse a white person using the term "fine white Brexit voting folks" as casual racism, then you do have to wonder whether in fact he has any actual understanding of what racism is!

Theres a common theme which is where people attack anti racism stances from another angle, which they think conceals their inherent racist attitude, except of course it doesn't.

Sad really because the real story here is those neanderthals amongst the crowd who booed, though ironically if they hadn't then the matter wouldn't have been discussed on here and in the media!

[ramAnag]

Regrettably rA reasoned discussion isn't going to change minds anytime soon, though on the other hand maybe if BAME people on TV and protests like this irritate him then at least he is unable to ignore the issue!

But lets face it, if you can keep a straight face whilst using the term "broadly non racist" or accuse a white person using the term "fine white Brexit voting folks" as casual racism, then you do have to wonder whether in fact he has any actual understanding of what racism is!

Theres a common theme which is where people attack anti racism stances from another angle, which they think conceals their inherent racist attitude, except of course it doesn't.

Sad really because the real story here is those neanderthals amongst the crowd who booed, though ironically if they hadn't then the matter wouldn't have been discussed on here and in the media!

‘Reasoned discussion’ is invariably better than ‘blame’, imo, Swale...especially where the latter is largely unjustified.

I’ve never commented on Andy’s ‘broadly non racist’ stance before, for two reasons...1) I think it’s a reasonable, though (to me) inconvenient, truth.
2) The matter of racism transcends point scoring at the expense of someone who I don’t believe to be racist.

I was fortunate to be brought up by two people who taught me to be wholly opposed to racism when it wasn’t the relatively easy and fashionable call it is today. Later...as a professional, and I suppose in many ways, ‘politically correct’ adult, I took my now late mother to task
for using the ‘incorrect’ term...’coloured’.
She rapidly put me in my place, and rightly so...she was one of the least racist people I have ever known but she used the ‘wrong’ term.
Unfortunately I think that is the case all too often and as a result those such as you and I in our commitment to anti racism sometimes choose the wrong targets.

You and I may be more fervently anti racist than many, but attacking the likes of Andy incessantly for his ‘broadly non racist’ comment just alienates people and deflects from the true target...the ‘Neanderthals among the crowd who booed’, and fails to recognise that many, perhaps less ‘politically aware’ folk...are likely to indulge in some form of subtle (broad) racism even if it goes no further than national stereotyping.

Don’t take this as an attack on you...it isn’t. I will always call racism out whenever I encounter it. I’ve done that individually, organisationally and professionally for the last fifty years...even to the extent of giving evidence in London against the police and the National Front in the seventies, but if the BLM movement is to be ‘sold’ to the doubters it will, imo, only be via persistence and ‘reasoned discussion’. Andy, although we may disagree, isn’t the enemy...institutionalised racism supported by the likes of those from Robinson and Farage to the low life morons amongst the crowd at Millwall are.

[MadAmster]

Everybody deserves an equal chance. The fact is that, if you're fortunate to have parents with sufficient coin to be able to ship you off to Eton, Harrow, Repton, Royal Shrewsbury or one of the other top private schools (I have never understood why they are referred to as "public" schools) you have far more chance of "making it" in life than if you went to the local Comprehensive or even to the Grammar School.

You occasionally get a politician who questions the standing order of things and one left wing Dutch politician recently threw a comment out there to the effect of "if we are all to have the same chances in life, is it right that children benefit from their parents' wealth?". The question hasn't been taken to mean "When you die the State will confiscate all your money so your kids have to make it on the backs of their own efforts". It has been taken as signalling that many kids are doomed to menial tasks and low wages in their working life and that steps should be taken to ensure those from a poorer background, which is often a BAME one, get a better chance rather than reducing rich kids' chances.

It's a point I can agree with. Especially now when those from a poorer background are unable to "study at home" for whatever reason. Be that unable to afford a laptop, parents don't give a damn, parents don't speak the local language, parents don't have the mental capacity to help their kids....... or maybe they are out at work at one of several part time jobs at minimum wage levels.

This issue isn't going away any time soon.