Reply With QuoteMakes sense. Forshaw has been arguably our best player this season, mental to leave him out, especially to play guys out of position! Im a fully paid up member of the Bielsa cheerleading club, but even im left scratching my head with this one...
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I have watched us in person a few times this season and watched when the midfield works and when it works less well.
When we play 3 in the middle in the 4, 8 and 10 roles then if KP is fit he hides some of the problems as he is so good at covering and breaking up attacks.
However, the number 8 role is possibly the most demanding in terms of positional play and running as the 8 should hold the middle, support the defence (both defending and giving options to progress the ball) and needs to be full of running in the Bielsa system. It is one of the roles that drives the energy of the team.
The 10! role is more attacking but ideally needs to track back and help too.
Klich is a natural 10 and less so an 8 - as he has got older (maybe his legs have gone or Bielsa just broke him in the 60 odd game season) he is less able to cover 8. Bielsa conceded as much post Everton.
However, when he plays with Rodrigo then he has to play 8. This is then compounded if by Rodrigo not really being a midfielder at all and struggling to get back or innately knowing where to be when we are defending . It’s not his fault he is naturally a striker or false 9.
If you have Koch in there too he has no one to guide or help him (which Foreshaw does) and we end up at time with a massive hole in midfield which other teams can exploit and leads to us losing the ball and then being vulnerable to the counter - how many goals have we conceded like that!!!
If Shackleton and Foreshaw are remotely fit then surely this madness has to stop and we need to play players in their natural positions where the role is so critical and demanding.
It makes the decision not to buy at least one quality midfielder bizarre as the options we have are either old (Klich, Dallas, Foreshaw) or unsuited (Rodrigo and Roberts) or too young just yet (Bate, Shacks, Allen).
If we then play three at the back with 2 in the middle and fill backs tucked in it just gets worse especially if the middle two are Klich and Rodrigo. Bielsa is a genius at times but that is so fecking blindingly obvious and a large part of why we got overrun by Everton.
Please god let us not play 3 at the back and make sure Foreshaw and Shackleton (who can run forever) are picked ahead of others for the 4 and 8 roles against Man U.
If we concede the midfield we may get thumped like we did in August.
Last edited by hopelesslyoptimistic; 16-02-2022 at 04:30 PM.
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Makes sense. Forshaw has been arguably our best player this season, mental to leave him out, especially to play guys out of position! Im a fully paid up member of the Bielsa cheerleading club, but even im left scratching my head with this one...
Hall Of Fame
Bielsa is not a genius, his methods are flawedOriginally Posted by hopelesslyoptimistic
His track record tells you that.
Man United will put at least 4 past us Saturday
The club needs a overhaul with bielsa going and orta with him.
We have missed opportunities with a manager
I personally would be trying to get Potter, this murderball ****e is pants.
We have won 5 this season, bye bye bielsa take your bucket and binoculars and go and spy on Harry Wilson
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Fair enough if you think that and Potter is very good.
Personally I love Bielsaball - we got caught out this season with a squad that is too thin and lacks quality in certain places.
Bielsaball with better players would be a joy to behold I suspect.
Last edited by hopelesslyoptimistic; 17-02-2022 at 10:07 AM.
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Bielsa always creates fluid systems easy to follow. His books state in football there fundamentally is only 30 team-tactical formations & he firmly believes that every young player should be given the opportunity to experience each of them, hence his playing of players in a variety of positions to give a better understanding of fulfilling all a footballers potential. Leeds knew that before hiring him with the remit to re-build the club from the roots again with his philosophy that matched Rad's vision.
1.All of MB squads played his favoured 3-3-1-3 formation. Depending on attack or defence this systems was/is continually switching during the game with the 4-2-3-1.
2.This disciplined 3–3–1–3 system allows quick movements from defence to attack using players able to quickly attack or defend as/when required.
3.Ultimately the system creates superiority in numbers in covering all zonal pitch areas with all players required to harass, press & recover the ball when lost
4.Bielsa always used his keepers to start forward movement by 3-3-1-3 & always had his sides set up to quickly switch to a 4-2-3-1 when driving further forward hence the requisite need for a Bamford style forward runner.
5.The true power of this formation is the 'quick switch' of tactical flexibility but of course players in such systems need the ball delivering & that requires runners off the ball & a deliverer.
At Leeds Bielsa has never really had 'that midfielder' who can create like in his Argentinian team who had a classic number 9 often in Crespo or Batistuta who worked like Bamfords directive in keeping the opposition’s centre-back busy while a smaller more mobile attacker generally López drifted around like Pablo did for us well & to a lesser degree Sáiz did sporadically due to his dire off ball work rate.
My point 3 - is who can use the ball in the middle now when we win it ?
I don't see anyone in the squad capable of this attacking foresight position.
To much emphasis on defensive midfielder runners is the issue for me presently with width being our only outlet & far to predictable & easy to combat.
A Marseille colleague at work showed what Leeds are missing in midfield with this pic of Bielsa's Marseille team set up - oh the luxury of such an option at Leeds eh.
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Love to watch Bielsa ball. Huge fan what he did for us.
However, being in a relegation battle and being beat on badly by the better teams and losing the teams in the bottom 10 does not bode well for us next season if we survive this year. We've also lost Raph and Phillips and Meslier are not certain. Recruiting is going to be really tough this upcoming off season. Have to hope that MB can sit down with Raph and convince him to play out the season hard so he get's his pick of where he wants to go.
It's time for a change as painful as that is to say. Been a wonderful run while it lasted. Will likely be a total rebuilt team.
Our midfield situation is a load of fecal matter. Have to hope that KP makes it back to save the season and looks great doing it so if we have to sell him we get top dollar for him.
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Indeed and that is when we have KP at 4 and AF at 8 when we don’t have them playing (or Dallas) then 10 is even more of a problem.
Bielsa always creates fluid systems easy to follow. His books state in football there fundamentally is only 30 team-tactical formations & he firmly believes that every young player should be given the opportunity to experience each of them, hence his playing of players in a variety of positions to give a better understanding of fulfilling all a footballers potential. Leeds knew that before hiring him with the remit to re-build the club from the roots again with his philosophy that matched Rad's vision.
1.All of MB squads played his favoured 3-3-1-3 formation. Depending on attack or defence this systems was/is continually switching during the game with the 4-2-3-1.
2.This disciplined 3–3–1–3 system allows quick movements from defence to attack using players able to quickly attack or defend as/when required.
3.Ultimately the system creates superiority in numbers in covering all zonal pitch areas with all players required to harass, press & recover the ball when lost
4.Bielsa always used his keepers to start forward movement by 3-3-1-3 & always had his sides set up to quickly switch to a 4-2-3-1 when driving further forward hence the requisite need for a Bamford style forward runner.
5.The true power of this formation is the 'quick switch' of tactical flexibility but of course players in such systems need the ball delivering & that requires runners off the ball & a deliverer.
At Leeds Bielsa has never really had 'that midfielder' who can create like in his Argentinian team who had a classic number 9 often in Crespo or Batistuta who worked like Bamfords directive in keeping the opposition’s centre-back busy while a smaller more mobile attacker generally López drifted around like Pablo did for us well & to a lesser degree Sáiz did sporadically due to his dire off ball work rate.
My point 3 - is who can use the ball in the middle now when we win it ?
I don't see anyone in the squad capable of this attacking foresight position.
To much emphasis on defensive midfielder runners is the issue for me presently with width being our only outlet & far to predictable & easy to combat.
A Marseille colleague at work showed what Leeds are missing in midfield with this pic of Bielsa's Marseille team set up - oh the luxury of such an option at Leeds eh.
Liked the way we played with the ball at Spam 2-3-2-3 meant there were lots of options all over but we had midfielders playing in roles they understood. Also suspect had Soucek been fit and playing for them we may not have got at their back 4 as much.
The miracle in the circumstances is that with the obvious deficiencies Bielsa has managed to get on occasion some really good performances out of them.
He has spoken in semi code or just Bielsa language post games at points - there is no point buying unless it is a significant upgrade but he is grateful to the board for what they have done on date.
Suspect he is equally frustrated as we are but he must see things in the numbers we don’t.
Interesting chapter in soccernomics about the effect of the weakest player on the team as a whole (drawn from huge data sets) so it really is about the quality of the whole team - which should be blindingly obvious but I think the better players mean we often forget that.
If you look at City, Liverpool and Chelsea it is hard to pick out any player who is weak - that is the nirvana we can one day hopefully achieve.
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Problem is this:
Phillips- Brilliant
Klich- was ok, now has been found out at this level and looks hopeless without Phillips
Rodrigo- Isn't a midfielder
Forshaw- Needs Phillips to be at his best
Dallas- Isn't a midfielder
Koch- Isn't a midfielder
Backup- There isn't any.
So in our entire squad we have one who is definitely good enough for this level and one who is ok at this level, the rest are only effective when Phillips is there.
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To much complications with Bielsa
This one year contract issue, how can you operate like that.
The top teams just hammer us, last season was a false season. No crowds and more away wins in the history of football.
I do accept we have been unlucky with injuries, but when you play Roberts up front and Rodrigo behind him, come on.
I think it was Chelsea Cooper got injured, he made 5 tactical changes in the formation
Surely cooper off Cresswell on, no panic
I looked at him on Saturday and he looked totally lost, all ideas gone.
That to me is we need a change
I just hope it's not a Spaniard or Portuguese replacement.
We need a manager who understands the Premiership and its demands.
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To just add we have just relied on Bamford for 3 seasons, not a thought if he gets injured, not a single thought.
Now we cannot buy a goal
Any striker we are linked with, he has to be a bloody winger, Ryan Kent,even that Liverpool lad last month.
We needed a striker back up
We have a decent looking lad in Joffy, if I was him I would kick off and ask for a loan move.
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