Shinniesta

[DCFCArmy]

One title win with academy players doesnt shoot down my argument. The fact is we benefited not a jot from it, we sold a load of them and never achieved a promotion with em, and to top it all off we still suffered administration and points deductions. Ended up in league 1. And our better performers this season are McGoldrick, Wildsmith and Mendez Laing who were all signed in the transfer market. And cost nothing so theres bargains to be had if you scout properly. Ill give you Cashin and Bird who are doing well , Knight is likely to be off but we wont benefit financially as we still owe money to Aresnal for Bielik... cheers Morris.

[DCFCArmy]

One title win with academy players doesnt shoot down my argument. The fact is we benefited not a jot from it, we sold a load of them and never achieved a promotion with em, and to top it all off we still suffered administration and points deductions. Ended up in league 1. And our better performers this season are McGoldrick, Wildsmith and Mendez Laing who were all signed in the transfer market. And cost nothing so theres bargains to be had if you scout properly. Ill give you Cashin and Bird who are doing well , Knight is likely to be off but we wont benefit financially as we still owe money to Aresnal for Bielik... cheers Morris

[Geoff Parkstone]

"we wont benefit financially as we still owe money to Aresnal for Bielik... cheers Morris"

You'll need to explain that one a little more. That's like saying I wouldn't benefit financially from a lottery win if I used it to pay off my mortgage.

Do we still owe Arsenal anyway - I'd have thought they were a football creditor and needed to be settled before we exitted administration.

[swaledale]

Yep agreed. He’s totally wrong about us not bringing young players through and you were right.
Since then however it’s turned into a bit of a witch hunt and, tbf, he only talked about the need to ‘wheel and deal’, not make big name signings.
To follow DCFCA’s ‘logic’ to a minor extent, I think we probably do need any January additions to have a greater emphasis on experience and leadership rather than youthful potential. Might not be possible though.

Nota witch hunt, just incredulity, that the statement is build a team the "proper way" by wheeling and dealing in the transfer market, I mean what does the "proper way" even mean.

He has now compounded the stupidity by claiming we haven't benefitted financially from the players that have come through he academy!!

I mean the estimated £3 million we got for Kaide Gordon from Liverpool. might just have kept the club afloat whilst we waited for a new owner!! There are also add ons in that deal which potentially could benefit us later on.

I must have been dreaming that we got substantial fees for Hughes and Hendrick as well!!

The main thrust of his argument, which he has followed through on, is we should scrap the academy and get players on the transfer market because looking 5 - 10 years ahead apparently doesn't have any benefit for the club. Not that we need to wheel and deal in the transfer market, if the basic premise of the argument is wrong, what hope is there?

Basically he talks complete ****e most of the time and that's when he is being coherent, which is rare!

[swaledale]

"we wont benefit financially as we still owe money to Aresnal for Bielik... cheers Morris"

You'll need to explain that one a little more. That's like saying I wouldn't benefit financially from a lottery win if I used it to pay off my mortgage.

Do we still owe Arsenal anyway - I'd have thought they were a football creditor and needed to be settled before we exitted administration.

I believe there was a payment plan in place, £2 million up front and instalments plus add ons up to a possible £10 million. Arsenal deferred a £1.4 million instalment in 2021 when Derby entered administration. There is reference on tinternet that the remaining payments were (as you correctly surmised) included in any payment made for the club by a new owner. No idea how much but the £10 million figure is likely to include appearances and perhaps promotion from the championship, so its entirely possible that the eventual fee was around £6 or £7 million.

You would have thought that as part of the football family a rich club like Arsenal would right off some of that voluntarily and they may have who knows. But it would seem there is no outstanding debt for Bielik, so a sale would generate revenue and get substantial wages off the budget. I would describe that as a financial benefit.

Now if we get transfer fees, can we use them to buy a player? Mm there is clearly some leeway, we did after all pay Rotherham compensation for signing Warne. My understanding is that the EFL will look at varying the agreed business plan on a case by case basis, which presumably means if a transfer fee can be paid from money generated say by a sale, that is something they may approve.

I say may, because its up to them. But given the new owner is a sensible person who isn't publicly slating them all the time, I guess they may be inclined to cooperate with sensible requests?

[ramAnag]

So basically no one yet knows exactly what the situation is regarding new signings then.

Don’t think you can compare the compensation paid to Rotherham for Warne with a transfer fee. All clubs need a manager and, with the benefit of hindsight, one of the cleverest things Clowes did was to appoint Rosenior on a ‘caretaker’ basis only, so the EFL couldn’t really object.

Suspect we’ll see a good deal of wheeling and dealing within the next few days and weeks. There is pressure on Lampard to take Dobbin back to Everton which, imo, wouldn’t help either club but would release money for wages.
Given Brighton’s recent plight and the fact that Roberts barely seems to be getting a look in under Warne, he might be going back too.
We probably only got him because of the Rosenior connection and will Brighton be happy to see one of their youngsters struggling for game time in League One? I doubt it. He’s a player I rate but apparently Warne doesn’t...not sure why, but again wages would be released.
Then there’s Osula...looked lethal against FA Cup opposition but the bar wasn’t particularly high there and has he done enough for us to keep him? Not sure...can we even send him back? Again I don’t know the fine details.

So there’s at least three loanees that there must be some level of doubt about and three ways in which we might be able to find money to fund alternative wages. It seems none of us know enough to be clear about how new additions are to be made. There are other rumours about Bielik, Knight and Shinnie so it’s watch this space, but I expect a busy January. In the meantime Happy New Year to all...including DCFCA.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I suspect it will either be very busy or a damp squib of a January. If we can't pay any fees (if indeed we do sell anyone) I don't see much action on loans until the last few days of the month. Thus imagine there could be wailing and gnashing of teeth at the inactivity by 20th January

[swaledale]

So basically no one yet knows exactly what the situation is regarding new signings then.

Don’t think you can compare the compensation paid to Rotherham for Warne with a transfer fee. All clubs need a manager and, with the benefit of hindsight, one of the cleverest things Clowes did was to appoint Rosenior on a ‘caretaker’ basis only, so the EFL couldn’t really object.

Suspect we’ll see a good deal of wheeling and dealing within the next few days and weeks. There is pressure on Lampard to take Dobbin back to Everton which, imo, wouldn’t help either club but would release money for wages.
Given Brighton’s recent plight and the fact that Roberts barely seems to be getting a look in under Warne, he might be going back too.
We probably only got him because of the Rosenior connection and will Brighton be happy to see one of their youngsters struggling for game time in League One? I doubt it. He’s a player I rate but apparently Warne doesn’t...not sure why, but again wages would be released.
Then there’s Osula...looked lethal against FA Cup opposition but the bar wasn’t particularly high there and has he done enough for us to keep him? Not sure...can we even send him back? Again I don’t know the fine details.

So there’s at least three loanees that there must be some level of doubt about and three ways in which we might be able to find money to fund alternative wages. It seems none of us know enough to be clear about how new additions are to be made. There are other rumours about Bielik, Knight and Shinnie so it’s watch this space, but I expect a busy January. In the meantime Happy New Year to all...including DCFCA.

Paying a transfer fee to release a player from his contract or paying compensation to release a manager from a contract, not sure there is a difference in that the amounts can be very similar at this level. Its still an outgoing and the EFL could have said you have Rosenior as manager, if you want to replace him there are plenty who are out of contract.

My understanding of the Rosenior appointment is that at the time of the takeover, the club were not in a financial position to appoint another manager and there wasn't the time with less than 5 weeks to get a team together before the start of the season, so appointing Rosenior on a temporary basis was the only option - he could have been appointed permanently, but then that wouldn't make much sense given Clowes had just taken over the club.

How is there pressure for Lampard to recall Dobbin? There has been paper talk, but even that has said what you have said, it would not help Everton to recall him. He is getting game time and so don't see him going back.

Roberts has had not had a look in lately because Sibley has played well and why change a team that's defending well and is unbeaten? Theres no mystery there. Again can't see the logic of a premier league club recalling a player who is playing in league 1 to play for them in the prem. They might want to send him elsewhere on loan for more game time, but there has been no hint of that.

Osula has had less game time, so again any recall would be to send him elsewhere, but no mention of that.

Warne has given no indication that he thinks any of the 3 loanees will be recalled, and whilst the window is open there is always a possibility it doesn't seem a major one to me.

In any case Warne has already said that wages aren't an issue, there is a budget which enables him to strengthen the squad, but under current business plan Derby can't pay a transfer fee.

Bielik's wages are another matter, if he came back to play for Derby that would impact the wage budget significantly, so he either stays on loan or gets sold.

In terms of players coming in, the current position has been explained by Warne, the club cannot pay a transfer fee, unless the EFL agree to vary the business plan, there is no mystery or unknown there it has been made quite clear.

What was talked about was being able to acquire a player whose contract finished at the end of the season, sometimes these can command a transfer fee, but if the club concerned sees not paying that players wages until June as a bonus then probably no fee - but as has been said, no club around the top 8 in league 1 would release a player to a rival club. But it may be possible to pick up a player from the championship in those circumstances.

The other option is more loans - only 5 loans can be in the match day squad, but I think the max at a club is 8?

The unknown is what the club can do IF, and its a big IF at the moment, Bielik or other player is sold for a significant fee, say £2 - 4 million?

Can Derby then use that money to pay a transfer fee? At the moment they can't, but its possible the EFL would approve a proposal to buy a player if its funded from externally generated revenue such as the sale of a player. Warne has said the EFL may vary the restrictions if requested to do so. But that really is the unknown issue.

Otherwise its either a free transfer or another couple of loans - I'd be surprised if we see any player other than Bielik go, odds are he will stay on loan at Birmingham (but it's possible of course). As for incomings, I'd say 3 players if we are lucky.

I have no expectations of a busy January, on the contrary basically it will be a quiet window, with lots of rumours and then 2 or 3 players nobody has forecast, will be signed.

[Geoff Parkstone]

We could maybe do some sort of player and cash deal for Bielik IF we could find a suitable counterparty for such a deal? So that way we don't spend on a player but got less cash on the sale?

The surprising thing is that we are almost a day into the window and Forest haven't spunked away any more funds that they don't have

[ramAnag]

Paying a transfer fee to release a player from his contract or paying compensation to release a manager from a contract, not sure there is a difference in that the amounts can be very similar at this level. Its still an outgoing and the EFL could have said you have Rosenior as manager, if you want to replace him there are plenty who are out of contract.

My understanding of the Rosenior appointment is that at the time of the takeover, the club were not in a financial position to appoint another manager and there wasn't the time with less than 5 weeks to get a team together before the start of the season, so appointing Rosenior on a temporary basis was the only option - he could have been appointed permanently, but then that wouldn't make much sense given Clowes had just taken over the club.

How is there pressure for Lampard to recall Dobbin? There has been paper talk, but even that has said what you have said, it would not help Everton to recall him. He is getting game time and so don't see him going back.

Roberts has had not had a look in lately because Sibley has played well and why change a team that's defending well and is unbeaten? Theres no mystery there. Again can't see the logic of a premier league club recalling a player who is playing in league 1 to play for them in the prem. They might want to send him elsewhere on loan for more game time, but there has been no hint of that.

Osula has had less game time, so again any recall would be to send him elsewhere, but no mention of that.

Warne has given no indication that he thinks any of the 3 loanees will be recalled, and whilst the window is open there is always a possibility it doesn't seem a major one to me.

In any case Warne has already said that wages aren't an issue, there is a budget which enables him to strengthen the squad, but under current business plan Derby can't pay a transfer fee.

Bielik's wages are another matter, if he came back to play for Derby that would impact the wage budget significantly, so he either stays on loan or gets sold.

In terms of players coming in, the current position has been explained by Warne, the club cannot pay a transfer fee, unless the EFL agree to vary the business plan, there is no mystery or unknown there it has been made quite clear.

What was talked about was being able to acquire a player whose contract finished at the end of the season, sometimes these can command a transfer fee, but if the club concerned sees not paying that players wages until June as a bonus then probably no fee - but as has been said, no club around the top 8 in league 1 would release a player to a rival club. But it may be possible to pick up a player from the championship in those circumstances.

The other option is more loans - only 5 loans can be in the match day squad, but I think the max at a club is 8?

The unknown is what the club can do IF, and its a big IF at the moment, Bielik or other player is sold for a significant fee, say £2 - 4 million?

Can Derby then use that money to pay a transfer fee? At the moment they can't, but its possible the EFL would approve a proposal to buy a player if its funded from externally generated revenue such as the sale of a player. Warne has said the EFL may vary the restrictions if requested to do so. But that really is the unknown issue.

Otherwise its either a free transfer or another couple of loans - I'd be surprised if we see any player other than Bielik go, odds are he will stay on loan at Birmingham (but it's possible of course). As for incomings, I'd say 3 players if we are lucky.

I have no expectations of a busy January, on the contrary basically it will be a quiet window, with lots of rumours and then 2 or 3 players nobody has forecast, will be signed.

Everton fans appear to be clamouring for Dobbin to be recalled. Personally I think it’d be better for both clubs if he stayed with us. Lots of promise but way off the top level at present...imo.

My point about Roberts is that he ISN’T playing, even at League one level, and that’s no use to Brighton...or us.

Your point about the number of loans we can ha be is a good one and one I admit I’d forgotten.

We’ll see.