Transfers in and out Summer 2023

[swaledale]

I think you’re missing my point a little, GP...or perhaps I’m not making it very well...late flight home last night.
At the end of the day/season...it doesn’t really matter where we drop points. We habitually used to have a post Christmas barren spell...last season it came earlier and later but the, as I said ‘understandable’, slow start didn’t help and we were always playing catch up with the two or three front runners.
Many people have blamed the dropped points in the first and last quarters on our lack of a proper pre-season. I’d like to think we’d have avoided that this time round but I’m not sure we have or can now.
My point about the players we brought in last summer (‘22) is that somehow Rosenior managed to sell us as an attractive proposition. This time round Warne seems to be finding it harder to attract players of the quality of those four already mentioned plus Hourihane. I’m just wondering why...surely we’re now in a better position.

ra hve you been smoking something whilst on holiday? Your claim that Warne hasn't brought in players of the same quality as Rosenior did doesn't hold up.

4 of the players have come from champ clubs, Bradley from Luton, Elder from Hull, Nelson from Blackpool (admittedly in lg 1 now) Wilson Bristol.1 Ward has come in from Peterboro who finished above us in League 1 and 2 in Vickers and Washington have come from Rotherham. Who were you expecting to sign?

Given wingbacks and defenders was where he needed to strengthen the team, he did that early doors, has brought in a quality back up keeper and a striker who he clearly likes as he signed him at Rotherham.

You mentioned 11 players leaving, yet only 4 of those actually played a significant number of games and 3 were loans, we've recruited 7 and presumably have a striker plus 2 or so loans to come, which will be 10 players at least!

How do you work out we haven't had a full pre season? All those players signed plus those retained from last year have had a full pre season, its just a case of adding up to 3 or 4 players, some will no doubt be loans, since when with the window closing at the end of August has the full squad been assembled before the first game?

So in summary, your assertion that the squad hasn't had a full pre season isn't true and your assertion we haven't signed players of the same quality as last year isn't true either.

We need say 3 more players, a striker, which is actively being sought and a midfielder to replace Knight there is still time and we are in no worse a position than other clubs.

I hear we are interested in Michael Smith a striker at Wednesday who scored 18 or so goals last season which sounds promising.

You clearly have formed a negative view of Warne, really cannot understand why? But more puzzling is why you have this view which is so far away from the reality of the situation?

[swaledale]

I don’t disagree with any of that, MA...and I recognise that both you and Swale speak a lot of sense.
I’m also not going to judge the seven incomers at this stage. I was certainly impressed with Nelson and Bradley in Fozzy’s testimonial against (poor) Championship opposition.
On the subject of Waghorn...he’s a genuine player and may prove a useful back up but, imo, nothing more than that.
Where I differ is that...we’ve signed seven and that obviously involves wages...but we’ve got rid of eleven - at least three of whom would have been on bigger Championship wages I imagine. It doesn’t matter if half of those eleven were only ‘bit’ players, as someone suggested earlier...Chester didn’t cost any less because he was crocked for most of the season...likewise Springett and White because they weren’t very good.

So...seven in...eleven out...and no transfer kitty money spent at all to date. Increasingly tedious but simple question...why, in such circumstances, are we apparently so reluctant to spend a reasonable amount of money or are the players we want just reluctant to come?

OK rA lets look at the maths = I'm being simplistic, but the principle holds

say an incoming player wage is 10K x 52 equals £520K for the year.

if we spend say £500K transfer fee, plus agents fee (by the way even a free player often has an agents fee) thats one years salary the club doesn't have for another player. You can see that it wouldn't take paying transfer fees for players before it impacts significantly on the squad size?

Warne has said in interviews that you don't necessarily get a better player for £300 - 500k than on a free, but if he pays a fee thats one less player he can have in the squad, so its a question of balance and judgement - restrict the number of players he can have in the squad, including loans and risk buying a player who may not perform.

In terms of how the finances pan out, well none of us a party to the overall business plan, but one would assume that an astute businessman such as Clowes is operating one that doesn't expose him or the club to an unforeseen issue financial liability causing a serious issue.

You are being very simplistic in your assessment and seem to assume that the out performing on the previous business plan enables the club to significantly increase its spending. The aim clearly is to be sustainable, there is a clear strategy in place, Clowes has said as much, whilst he has made no grand promises as to promotion, other than the club will be in a position to challenge for promotion, which it did last season.

I

[swaledale]

Well...yes...I do believe that £500k shouldn’t be beyond us...as did many others given the names (Lapado, May, Vale, Rhodes) that we’ve been associated with this summer.

I’m not being insulting to Clowes at all in referring to him as a ‘Rookie’ owner. That’s exactly what he is - inexperienced, a fresh recruit, in terms of football ownership. I hold him in very high regard but there’s no escaping that he is, and certainly was, a ‘Rookie’ owner.

We didn’t qualify for the playoffs because we didn’t collect enough points...simple as that. Some of those points were dropped as a result of us being underprepared at the beginning of the season for totally understandable reasons. Then we got into a very strong position...and then we collapsed. You can look at individual results (eg Fleetwood and MKD at home) if you like but that’s what happened...we ran out of steam and lost our momentum while others caught, and in Peterborough’s case, overtook us

I just see things a little differently from you but then you change too. Last night you implied that Waghorn could be a useful acquisition whereas at the beginning of this thread your attitude was one of no thanks, ‘there’s better, younger and cheaper strikers out there’. That’s what I’m saying...I just wonder why we’re struggling to attract them.

IF Waghorn was being considered as a main striker, my view would be the same, he is not the answer, as a cheap, squad player who could change games when brought on then fine if Warne thinks he brings something to the squad at low cost. So I haven't changed my view and he isn't being considered as the replacement striker.

Its a question of availability, unless there is a player worth paying a fee for, Warne isn't going to do it which seems sensible to me - the strikers currently available on a free are clearly not good enough. To get others that are under contract depends upon negotiations with the club, who may not be willing to let a player go until they have sorted their squad, or may be wanting a fee that is considered unreasonable. I'm sure Warne knows what he is doing.

The term "rookie" owner is meaningless then, would you suggest Mike Ashley who owned Newcastle a preferable option to Clowes who hasn't?

You used the term disparagingly inferring Clowes had made an error of judgement in appointing Warne over Rosenior, yet from where we all stand, whilst it looked a tad harsh on Rosenior, it was clearly a well thought out and planned move which it is hard to be critical of, even if we don't get promoted this season. Would Rosenior have got us promoted? We will never know.

[ramAnag]

Okay...final words on the subject because I too am bored with both the subject and the constant misinterpretation.

Point by point.

From post 311...no one is in a position to compare this summer’s signings with last years. It’s too early and from what I’ve seen some are very promising however they will have to be very good indeed to be in the category of Hourihane, McGoldrick, NML, Corey Smith and Wildsmith who Rosenior somehow managed to attract to Derby when survival was the primary aim and we didn’t have the proverbial pot to urinate in.
Now we’re amongst the ‘favourites’ for promotion, must be better off, have fewer restrictions yet for some reason we don’t appear to have become a more attractive transfer destination...yet.

Self evidently the squad hasn’t had a ‘full pre season’ because even you concede that there are probably three, including a striker, still to arrive so how can they have had...and while justifying us not having spent any money you’ve just added Michael Smith to the mix who, I agree, sounds like a good prospect.

From post 312...all you are adding to what has been said before is in the final paragraph and I disagree with virtually nothing in the whole of that post other than to query why, after all that has happened, you now seem to be accepting of the fact that we now seem to be acting more cautiously than we were a year ago.

I don’t have a ‘negative view’ of Warne at all...however I do think he still has things to prove. The additions of Springett and White last season were, imo, poor business and the manager cannot be absolved of all responsibility for our collapse during the business end of the season at a time when Darren Ferguson’s return to Peterborough led to them ‘taking off’ while we, comparatively speaking, were correspondingly treading water during the run in.
My words were he ‘has things to prove’. He has...and I absolutely wish him well in doing so, but it’s also noticeable that Rotherham have hardly gone into a state of decline since he left.

From post 313...we agree then about Waghorn. A useful squad player but nothing more.

I have never said anything remotely ‘disparaging’ about Clowes. I wouldn’t because, for the umpte*nth time, I have great respect for the man. Calling him a ‘Rookie owner’ is not disrespectful it is utterly factual for the reasons already given. Whether a mistake was made in swapping Rosenior for Warne I don’t know...time will tell, although I note Liam Delap has chosen to rejoin the former at Hull which may or may not say something...clearly it at least suggests that that particular bright young ‘one for the future’ was happier to link up with LR again rather than return to his Derby roots.

So...in conclusion...as I say, the argument has become tiresome, but to be clear...I admire Clowes greatly and referring to someone as a ‘Rookie’ is not disparaging...I very much want Warne to succeed, he has my full support, but I think he still has much to prove...I recognise our limitations as far as our own finances and those of the country in general are concerned, but while I’ll accept MA’s charge of impatience I reject any accusation of ‘naivety’ or being ‘simplistic’.

Beyond that, we may not agree but our hopes for DCFC are, I suspect, much the same.

[swaledale]

You can reject accusations of naivety and being simplistic, but unfortunately they are true as the evidence shows clearly.

You say Derby doesn't seem as attractive as we should be and are acting cautiously. No, we signed 7 players fairly soon on, in positions which we needed and of a younger age mostly than previous signings. Furthermore these players have either dropped down a division to join us or joined from a club that finished above us in the league last year. Hardly a sign we are not attractive or offering wages that quality players find attractive!

You talk about not having a full preseason, when we have what 3 players to add to a squad of around 22 players? Are you serious? Since when has a club especially at this level recruited all its players by the start of the new season? How does 2 or 3 not being in the squad mean the core hasn't had a full pre season and do you think players brought in from other clubs haven't been training?

Unlike last season, this squad have had a full pre season apart from any additions that may arrive, likely to be loans that nearly always arrive last. I'm entirely satisfied with the business done and the timescale its been completed, I see no reason to suggest that pre season hasn't be satisfactory and that we are in a different situation from last year. Whether that translates into Derby starting the season fast we will see.

We need a quality striker, its well known (except it seems by you) that such players are hard to find and expensive to buy for obvious reasons. You were whinging about Waghorn being a "backward step", when at no time was he mentioned as the striker we were looking for, but just that he may be a useful squad player if he was happy with the contract offered.

I have no doubt that Warne has targets and is working through them, but that takes time, a club may be reluctant to let a player leave until they have recruited. They may want a fee which is considered to be too high, this may well reduce the closer to the end of the transfer window, whatever the reason, these negotiations with players and clubs take time and one can be a way down the road to signing a player when an unexpected offer from a club in a higher division offering more money can come in and blow the deal out of the water.

Then its on to the next target, all this takes time and given the financial implications of paying a fee, then Warne will want to be a sure as possible the player is worth any fee. So again its not surprising that we are still looking to do a deal, I for one am happy we are being cautious over the signing of a striker, we need one that is an improvement over what we have.

We know that loans will generally be available towards the end of the transfer window when other teams have finalised their squads!

I do like the way you say you don't have a negative view of Warne, then have more digs at his loan signings in January, the fact the teams performance tailed off towards the end of the season, that Delap's gone to Hull (equally players have come to Derby from Rotherham who previously worked with Warne, so that works both ways) and that Rotherham didn't suffer after he left.

So which is it? You think Warne has more to prove? Yes he has a clear target to do that and this season is where he can be fairly judged, but the above examples of negativity are just those contained in your post in which you deny having a negative view of Warne!!!


I accept one can have an opinion on where we are, but can't accept statements which are not backed up by the clear evidence and much of what you have complained about isn't backed up by evidence, its based on assumptions which can clearly shown to be both naïve and simplistic.

Now let the season commence and lets see what happens.

[ramAnag]

You can reject accusations of naivety and being simplistic, but unfortunately they are true as the evidence shows clearly.

You say Derby doesn't seem as attractive as we should be and are acting cautiously. No, we signed 7 players fairly soon on, in positions which we needed and of a younger age mostly than previous signings. Furthermore these players have either dropped down a division to join us or joined from a club that finished above us in the league last year. Hardly a sign we are not attractive or offering wages that quality players find attractive!

You talk about not having a full preseason, when we have what 3 players to add to a squad of around 22 players? Are you serious? Since when has a club especially at this level recruited all its players by the start of the new season? How does 2 or 3 not being in the squad mean the core hasn't had a full pre season and do you think players brought in from other clubs haven't been training?

Unlike last season, this squad have had a full pre season apart from any additions that may arrive, likely to be loans that nearly always arrive last. I'm entirely satisfied with the business done and the timescale its been completed, I see no reason to suggest that pre season hasn't be satisfactory and that we are in a different situation from last year. Whether that translates into Derby starting the season fast we will see.

We need a quality striker, its well known (except it seems by you) that such players are hard to find and expensive to buy for obvious reasons. You were whinging about Waghorn being a "backward step", when at no time was he mentioned as the striker we were looking for, but just that he may be a useful squad player if he was happy with the contract offered.

I have no doubt that Warne has targets and is working through them, but that takes time, a club may be reluctant to let a player leave until they have recruited. They may want a fee which is considered to be too high, this may well reduce the closer to the end of the transfer window, whatever the reason, these negotiations with players and clubs take time and one can be a way down the road to signing a player when an unexpected offer from a club in a higher division offering more money can come in and blow the deal out of the water.

Then its on to the next target, all this takes time and given the financial implications of paying a fee, then Warne will want to be a sure as possible the player is worth any fee. So again its not surprising that we are still looking to do a deal, I for one am happy we are being cautious over the signing of a striker, we need one that is an improvement over what we have.

We know that loans will generally be available towards the end of the transfer window when other teams have finalised their squads!

I do like the way you say you don't have a negative view of Warne, then have more digs at his loan signings in January, the fact the teams performance tailed off towards the end of the season, that Delap's gone to Hull (equally players have come to Derby from Rotherham who previously worked with Warne, so that works both ways) and that Rotherham didn't suffer after he left.

So which is it? You think Warne has more to prove? Yes he has a clear target to do that and this season is where he can be fairly judged, but the above examples of negativity are just those contained in your post in which you deny having a negative view of Warne!!!


I accept one can have an opinion on where we are, but can't accept statements which are not backed up by the clear evidence and much of what you have complained about isn't backed up by evidence, its based on assumptions which can clearly shown to be both naïve and simplistic.

Now let the season commence and lets see what happens.

Hmmm...who said, on here, on 31st May, ‘I note there is discussion over Waghorn...for me, even at League 1 level, I wouldn’t want him’...and you want me to make my mind up!

Do I think Warne has more to prove? Yes...absolutely, of course he has and it is possible to be critical of someone without being negative.

Are you saying he’s already proved himself? Are you suggesting that Springett and White were good examples of how to use the January window? I think we were 7th in the table when Rosenior left and that’s where we finished, having proved unable to capitalise on an excellent two and a half month run. That’s not my definition of ‘proving yourself’.

It’s turned into a daft argument. We both want Warne and Derby to succeed. I have confidence that they will and, of all the potential signings mentioned, I believe Michael Smith would be the most appropriate in our circumstances. Hopefully Warne will be able to sign him up and get on with the job of proving himself to be the right man for the job at Derby.

[swaledale]

Its turned into a daft argument because you won't accept that the following statements you made aren't remotely true.

No I wouldn't want Waghorn as our main striker, neither does Warne, if he is acquired as a low cost squad player who can add something to the squad then fine, relying on him as a main player wouldn't be my choice, but of course he may IF he signs surprise us as McGoldrick did, theres a big difference between Waghorn as a cheap squad player and as one of our main strikers, which was where my comment was aimed.

1. Derby have dawdled over signings and the squad won't have had a proper pre season, despite the fact that apart from a striker and possibly 2 or 3 other players the bulk of the squad has taken part in a full pre season!!

2. That Derby do not seem to be able to attract players of the same quality as last season, when players have signed from championship clubs or from good clubs in this league, what did you expect? That Derby would be signing players for £500k a time? I've already explained the maths on that one.

3. Yes its possible to be critical of the manager, though surely that must be tempered by the fact that 1) None of the team were Warne's choice and 2) Whatever the quality of some of the players, we were missing some key positions especially at full back and the squad was top heavy with older players, with a consequence that injuries and fatigue were always going to be a factor and they were. 3) You blame Warne for a number of issues that were clearly beyond his control.

Seeing as neither you or I know what players were available that Derby could afford in January, I really don't see how one can make a judgement. Sure they didn't perform, though that can happen with any loan, but Warne needed to boost the squad and had no money to do it, so kind of had his hands tied. Unless of course you know there were better options available which Derby could have afforded?

There you go again harking on about Rosenior, tell me, would you rather Rosenior had been left in charge? It certainly seems like it, with your constant reference to the decision of a "rookie" owner and the fact that Rosenior has been a "success" at Hull.

Or do you think that the decision to appoint Warne given his experience was a sensible one at the time it was made?

I realise most of your comments are made with the benefit of hindsight such as you pointing out that in the end we didn't improve on our league position when Warne took charge - but in doing that you ignore the fact that other clubs did have the resources to strengthen in January and that you have absolutely no idea how the season with Rosenior in charge would have played out.

Its easy and typical of many a fan to be wise after the event and be critical, you have to remember that at the time a decision is made its based on the facts and criteria applicable at the time it was made, without the benfit of hindsight.

Has Warne proved himself? Well given everything that can happen in football to **** up even the best laid plans, yes he has. Certainly I am very pleased with the quality of the signings made so far, in fact a little surprised that he has managed to attract the players he has given the league we are in. I know we are the biggest club in this league, but players dropping down a division to play for him is a good sign and I doubt we could match the wages of a lot of championship clubs who may have wanted those players.

If he manages to sign Smith I will be well impressed. If he doesn't I won't be slagging him off, because I am confident he is doing what he can under the restrictions he is operating.

My expectation last season, as I predicted last September, was to finish 6th but fall short in the playoffs, realistic given there were at least 6 other clubs with settled squads and more money than us. We fell short by 1pt and in my view Warne's experience most likely got us finishing 3 or 4 places higher than we might have done, but its all conjecture. All in all a very satisfactory season, given until July none of us knew whether there would be a club to even support.

I get the feeling that you view is that if we don't at least make the play offs this tie a round, you will view Warne as a failure?

If thats the case, then that is a simplistic view, on paper we should be there or thereabouts, but its a funny old game football and things often don't pan out as they should, a couple of unfortunate injuries, a loss of form by a key player, another club out performing can all ahve a knock on effect. This year I do hope we make an early exit from both cups, yes the money is nice but we can do without the additional games and consequent fatigue and injury risk and focus all efforts on the league. Of course this year we may have a bigger squad and have more fringe/u23 players who can play cup games.

I do hope we win Saturday, because I can foresee another doom laden post from you otherwise!

[ramAnag]

Give it a rest, Swale.
We see things differently, that’s all. You seem to regard Warne as immune from criticism...I don’t and still think he has everything to prove.
The fact that you’ve had to resort to quite so much deliberate (untypical) misinterpretation and distortion of what I’ve said speaks volumes.
Ultimately there are two things that I agree with from your latest essay...I too will be ‘well impressed’ if we sign Smith and it will cast a much more favourable and complete light on this summer’s transfer dealings...like you I also hope we win today at rain sodden Pride Park...but there will be no ‘doom laden’ post from me if we don’t, it’s just lap one of 46...but it’d be nice to get off to a good start.

[Ramshank72]

I hate it when mom and dad fight.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I hate it when mom and dad fight.

It's like someone has shot the tail section off the Red Baron's biplane 😄