A Clash of Footballing Philosophies

[jackal2]

Excellent OP by AC.

Make no mistake, I've thoroughly enjoyed the brand of football Luke Williams plays. The instruction has clearly come from the club hierarchy that this is our intended 'identity', and Neal Ardley and Ian Burchnall played their roles in transitioning us to it, but Williams has taken that work up several levels, not least because his influence isn't just evident in the way we play on the field but also the growing mental strength of the team.

I can remember several seasons, before the Munto mirage, when you were lucky if you saw six or seven good performances and entertaining games per season season. It was awful stuff, seemingly season after season. When AC talks about cloggers, my mind goes back to the Steve Thompson teams who played the ugliest football I've ever seen. He clearly had no idea how to coach a football team beyond putting a big man up front and pumping poor quality, aimless balls into the box, which of course gave the ball away cheaply and saw an equally poor defence exposed many times.

Since Luke Williams arrived, virtually every home game has been entertaining, and a good number of the matches have been barn-stormers. You look forward to going to see us play, and the attacking talent on display is the best I've seen since the days of Tommy Johnson, Mark Draper, Dean Thomas, Kevin Bartlett et al.

The one question mark surrounding LW's philosophy of completely controlling possession is what happens when the opponents become good enough to stop that happening? If our opponents manage to disrupt our rhythm and get a decent share of the ball, then our defence is actually quite vulnerable, as shown by some stats NCFOG posted in a thread a short while back.

I don't want to see 'cloggers' in this team, and they wouldn't fit, but as we face improving opposition there will come a point where we'll need a couple of 'nastier' players in midfield and at the back who don't get overwhelmed if the opponents start to get the upper hand, especially in away games.

I don't see this pragmatic point as a clash of footballing philosophies or a reason to oust good footballers like Baldwin and Cameron. It's simply a case of getting the balance right, so we've got a team that cope with ANY type of opponent.

One of the biggest myths about the successful Warnock and Allardyce teams was that they were nothing more than physical long-ball merchants. That's totally untrue - they were winners who played some very exciting football, albeit more in the opponent's half than their own. One of the things I liked about both those sides was that they did have a ruthless, nasty streak. They were willing - to coin an old phrase - to "leave one on the opponent", Graeme Sounness or Roy Keane style! When teams played Notts County under Warnock and Allardyce, they knew they had been in a game and probably didn't look forward to meeting them again too quickly!

I don't see any reason why Luke Williams' team can't continue to be the most entertaining side in the division, but cut out the soft mistakes and become nastier and more aggressive out of possession. Obviously the current team isn't a bunch of careless softies otherwise they would never have won promotion and continued to win this season, but I'm sure LW knows we won't be able to completely control every game play, and I think that's why he keeps emphasising concentration, both in and out of possession, and being a "difficult" team to play against as well as a great one to watch. Flowing football and crunching tackles are both fun to watch and get the crowd going.

I'd like us to be a team who are feared in every way!

[Proactive not Reactive]

There's not much point going around in circles on other threads about Baldwin, Cameron, 'the defending' 'a mistake' etc...

What's become clear is that the more LW double-downs on his football philosophy, strategy and preferences the more it jars with a certain section of our fanbase.

Yesterday we went to one of the bigger L2 clubs, played what can only be called a 3-2-4-1, 3 ball-playing defenders, a team packed with creators and bossed the game completely.
When have we ever seen a Notts team with that attacking balance? Wilko's team in the top flight? Moniz? It's f***in brilliant!
To be able to watch every game of your team playing this way is unbeatable entertainment.

Back 3s have been rare over the years. I used to associate it with Dutch football, Ajax and the Dutch National team of the early to mid 90s. 3 ball playing defenders, 2 holding playmakers in midfield and players like Overmars, Roy, Winter or Witschge out wide. Every team in the EFL made attempts over the years to move away from the flat back four. Great in theory, but in reality it was usually a sneaky way to play a back 5 with fans being asked to see players like DKE as 'wing-backs' and ask them to 'push up a bit'. Burchnall didn't want to play Nemane when he was sitting right under his nose for a year. Finally LW arrived to show us what a back 3 should really look like. And he's really going for it this season with Jones over Chicksen.

Full disclosure - now Ruben's gone, Baldwin and Cameron are my two favourite players. I also peg them as 2 of our best 4 players. Their swagger (if Kyle gets it back) and confidence to play is a massive part of our game and identity as a side.

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties. To their eyes we need four, tall, no nonsense defenders willing to play it long, a midfield hard man and a big target man up front...

Will LW's game bring success to Notts in L2? How much will he have to compromise and be pragmatic along the way? Will it fall flat on its face? We're going to find out. But who in their right mind wouldn't want to watch the team we put out yesterday? Seeing that dominance and potency is worth putting up with the odd mistake and goal conceded from them. We'll have dark times and setbacks but I believe LW and his team will keep their nerve and stick to their beliefs - as he did after Sutton. And we'll see how far playing our game takes us.

An excellent post of course it would be great for us to reach the lofty heights of the Championship but as important to me is going to games enjoying them and being entertained.
That has certainly been the case in the NL and massively raised last season,the play off games were brilliant especially the character and were up with the Warnock play offs.
I’m there v Grimsby this season and wow the game was even better than last season with such quality for the goals against tougher opposition than last season.
I went to the odd game in the Keith Curle era boring went to a number of games in the Nolan era take Yates,Grant and Ameobi out of their poor side.
I went to more games last season than for a long time,most home games and will be the same this season just love LW’s approach to the game - it’s entertainment
I don’t think we need Roy Keane,Graeme Souness types football has changed it’s totally different almost like 5 a side,pitches are a lot better and players are a lot more technical and midfield players now are encouraged to lead players down blind alleys away from the goal without making tackles
Notts have dominated the last 3 matches without making numerous tackles and especially Bostock and Palmer have dominated the midfield by speed of thought,bravery on the ball and ability to keep moving the ball with short decisive passes.
This is the modern era of coaches and over time there will be less teams slinging the ball into the box

[Elite_Pie]

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties.

The physical era of the noughties? Really? You must be much younger than me, because the noughties was the start of the namby-pamby era compared to the seventies, when things actually were physical. The first time I remember Notts trying to play the modern tippy-tappy style was when Ian McParland replaced Steve Thompson as manager. It was a disaster, and the most boring Notts team I've watched in 52 years.

Style is vastly overrated in my opinion. It's great when it works, but not when it doesn't. Under Ardley we were dull. Under Burchnall we were better but never looked convincing. Under Williams, we have been fantastic. That's because style has finally led to results to go with style. I admit it was a bit of a learning curve for me, but by Christmas I'd stopped moaning about passing backwards and taking short corners. Why? Because the league table said that it's effective. I was converted. Whatever Luke Williams decides to do, I will back him because he's shown it works.

[queenslandpie]

You simply cannot argue with the results or the style of play both are fantastic for the most part, but I don't think there is anything wrong in demanding more from some of the players as they could be even better than they are if they cut out some of the suicidal mistakes they make. Baldwin last weekend was a case in point. Had a brilliant game and didn't do anything suicidal. I don't think we simply have to accept that because of the style we play and the players we have that mistakes are inevitable. I am quite sure Luke Williams would think the same.

[durhampie]

We are the Man City of the lower leagues, our football since the Bros have been here has been scintillating. Our style of play is possession based, so we dont need those big boot cloggers. The likes of Cameron, Baldwin and Brindley are the perfect fit for what we do.. if we could just cut out some of the basic errors which we are prone to, then we would be a real force..

[uysapie]

I still get peed off with the passing to and fro in our own half, boring as far as I am concerned. I can understand the so called " recycling" in the opponents half but even that is at walking pace at times.

[the_anticlough]

I think there should always be room for discussion. I love the way we play, I’m a massive fan of LW but that does not nor should not make it impossible for me to comment on tactics, players etc.

I like Baldwin, I think if we can keep him fit, he’s going places, hopefully with Notts.

With Cameron though, I’d have to draw the line in agreeing with you. He’s not stepped up so far, and this downturn in form started long before this season.

I’m fairly sure were he not captain and results had not been so good he might have been dropped by now.

I’d have to see NCS’s stats, but I don’t feel he’s contributing enough at the moment. Certainly not as much as the other centres backs that are continually rotated.

That can change though. And I hope it does.

I'm a big backer of KC and think he deserved his NL team of the year spot last season
But from the 4 league games so far, I'd give him 4/10, 5/10, 5/10 and 6/10...not a barnstorming start but I like the direction it's going in, if you turn it into a graph and project...

[kill_the_drum]

Excellent OP by AC.

The one question mark surrounding LW's philosophy of completely controlling possession is what happens when the opponents become good enough to stop that happening? If our opponents manage to disrupt our rhythm and get a decent share of the ball, then our defence is actually quite vulnerable, as shown by some stats NCFOG posted in a thread a short while back.

If we’re at a level where opponents become good enough to stop us playing, then we would need better players at doing what we already do.
My personal opinion is we’re not at that level yet, and this team will bring us another promotion push.
We defend by breaking up play and suffocating the opposition high up the pitch.
It’s more work rate than it is physicality.

[drillerpie]

I suppose there are two points to consider here - enjoyment and success.

As regards enjoyment, if im being completely honest the way we play doesn't really get my juices flowing. This is not me being critical, as I hope I manage to express in the rest of the post, its just my personal opinion.

For me football is a game skill of course, but also, and perhaps more, of physicality, speed, aggression, a battle of wills. Overcoming adversity through sheer bloody minded application. Moments of skill yes, but unpredictable.

I always enjoyed watching someone stick it to Barcelona in the late noughties, like Chelsea when they barely got out of their own half and they played with two strikers doubling up either side at full back. Or watching Liverpool or Leicester do the same to City in the last decade with helter skelter football leading to balls over the top for Vardy or Salah to run on to.

This is probably heresy, but I actually enjoy watching the current Forest team more than Notts. Big centre forward. Tough tackling midfielder. Fast counter attacks. Me likey.

That's probably why I liked Ruben so much, as he paired undoubted skill and flair with a healthy dose of emotion - getting wound up and squaring up to people, getting fouled and then putting revenge tackles in. Carrying the ball while using his physical strength.

In terms of effectiveness, there is no contest. We have a game plan. We stick to it. It works. It's the first time in a long time we can say that about Notts.

Our manager is very talented, I love the way he speaks - always so measured - and what he has done for us. Our players are all likeable and very good at what they do.

I just can't escape the fact that it's like going with a stunningly beautiful woman who shows no passion, or going to a restaurant where the food is always amazing but the atmosphere and staff are boring and sterile, or like watching Rainman solve mathematical equations.

With all three of the examples I've chosen as with Notts, while you have to admire and respect the technical prowess, but there's a kind of inevitability and control about it that leaves me slightly underwhelmed.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur. I don't know. I know we won't change and I don't even want us to change. This is who we are now and it's great to see us climbing the leagues again.

[nw6pie]

I suppose there are two points to consider here - enjoyment and success.

As regards enjoyment, if im being completely honest the way we play doesn't really get my juices flowing. This is not me being critical, as I hope I manage to express in the rest of the post, its just my personal opinion.

For me football is a game skill of course, but also, and perhaps more, of physicality, speed, aggression, a battle of wills. Overcoming adversity through sheer bloody minded application. Moments of skill yes, but unpredictable.

I always enjoyed watching someone stick it to Barcelona in the late noughties, like Chelsea when they barely got out of their own half and they played with two strikers doubling up either side at full back. Or watching Liverpool or Leicester do the same to City in the last decade with helter skelter football leading to balls over the top for Vardy or Salah to run on to.

This is probably heresy, but I actually enjoy watching the current Forest team more than Notts. Big centre forward. Tough tackling midfielder. Fast counter attacks. Me likey.

That's probably why I liked Ruben so much, as he paired undoubted skill and flair with a healthy dose of emotion - getting wound up and squaring up to people, getting fouled and then putting revenge tackles in. Carrying the ball while using his physical strength.

In terms of effectiveness, there is no contest. We have a game plan. We stick to it. It works. It's the first time in a long time we can say that about Notts.

Our manager is very talented, I love the way he speaks - always so measured - and what he has done for us. Our players are all likeable and very good at what they do.

I just can't escape the fact that it's like going with a stunningly beautiful woman who shows no passion, or going to a restaurant where the food is always amazing but the atmosphere and staff are boring and sterile, or like watching Rainman solve mathematical equations.

With all three of the examples I've chosen as with Notts, while you have to admire and respect the technical prowess, but there's a kind of inevitability and control about it that leaves me slightly underwhelmed.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur. I don't know. I know we won't change and I don't even want us to change. This is who we are now and it's great to see us climbing the leagues again.

I’ve been watching Notts for 45 years and this team has consistently played the best football I’ve ever seen from a Notts side. I don’t recognise the Notts you’re describe, Driller. For starters, we scored over 100 goals last season and were consistently having over 20 shots per game - that is not negative football. Yes, we want to control the game and part of that means “resting with the ball”. Seems a small price to pay for everything it gives us.

As for passion, one of the comments that stuck out for me from Saturday was a Doncaster reporter complaining that we “wanted it more” - which is always lovely to hear. But that comes from hard work and determination. Part of the reason we’re currently getting great crowds is that we’re entertaining to watch - most of the time, anyway - and work incredibly hard as a team.

As for Forest - I watched the Sheffield United game on Friday night and thought United played them off the park at times and definitely deserved a point. Not sure if Cloughie would be a big fan of Forest’s attritional approach.

#Viva Notts, as someone might have said!