Was wondering about batteries

[BCram]

and how they are going to be used to store wind turbine energy so that when the wind dies down the batteries will supply the power. Anybody know if this is actually good science?

[Dodbroon]

and how they are going to be used to store wind turbine energy so that when the wind dies down the batteries will supply the power. Anybody know if this is actually good science?

Within the Hydro Electric energy production there are pump storage systems already in place where cheaper overnight electricity is used to pump water up to a reservoir for the production of power at times when it is required. I don't know how many such systems are in place. Cruachan is certainly one, others may exist. Surely, theoretically, power from wind turbines could be used for the pumping up of the water. Building new dams would take time and money but maybe the addition of pumps to restock water reservoirs at existing dams is a possibility in effect duplicating the Cruachan system.

On the other hand I could be havering rubbish!!

[islaydarkblue]

Within the Hydro Electric energy production there are pump storage systems already in place where cheaper overnight electricity is used to pump water up to a reservoir for the production of power at times when it is required. I don't know how many such systems are in place. Cruachan is certainly one, others may exist. Surely, theoretically, power from wind turbines could be used for the pumping up of the water. Building new dams would take time and money but maybe the addition of pumps to restock water reservoirs at existing dams is a possibility in effect duplicating the Cruachan system.


On the other hand I could be havering rubbish!!

The hydro electric dam at Pitlochry is a pump storage system.
The power from wind turbines could only be used to pump up the water to a reservoir about the dam if the wind was blowing.
You need to remember that if is too windy wind turbines have to be switched off in case their spinning blades go out of control and shear off.

[islaydarkblue]

and how they are going to be used to store wind turbine energy so that when the wind dies down the batteries will supply the power. Anybody know if this is actually good science?

This is the main problem with wind turbines and solar panels.
Huge batteries which are expensive would have to be installed to store electricity generated by wind turbines and solar to have a continuous supply of electricity when the wind does not blow and/or it is cloudy.
Solar panels are no use during the winter months when there are only a few hours of daylight.
When wind farms are installed, Scottish Renewables who are the mouthpiece for the renewable industry in Scotland are always careful to say that a new wind farm could produce enough electricity for say 20,000 homes.
They never state that the new wind farm will produce enough electricity for say 20,000 homes because they know that the wind in Scotland does not blow all the time and they also know that when there are storms the wind turbines will have to be switched off until the storm dies out.

[BCram]

Is there a problem if the wind blows too hard? I was wondering if the current excess power reason for shutting down the turbines might be solved by the ability of batteries to absorb the electricity that the grid cannot use. In fact that's what got me thinking about this. the batteries could only be charged if there was too much electricity for the grid to use.

If the turbines have to be shut down because the wind blows too hard then that seems to me to be as likely to happen as there being flat calm conditions. Are there statistics about the maximum wind speed for the safe operation of wind turbines.

[deecom]

worked on a couple of wind turbines when they were first introduced.
if i mind right, batteries are only used to induce power to the turbine to start it up, then the wind takes over.
if there is insufficient wind power, the system then swaps over to the grid.

If there is a night match at Dens, and there is a power failure, small diesel generators automatically kick in and supply power for emergency
light systems only, for stairwells and walkways .

same on an oil rig, if the turbines fail ,battery banks kick in and supply power for emergency light systems, which would only last about
4-6 hours.
a black start, then commences and a standby diesel generator is started to supply power to control systems to start up a turbine,
which will reinstate power to the rig,

[BCram]

Just Googled wind speeds and turbines. Operating range is 7 to 55mph. Now looking to see if there are stats for how often the turbines are stopped because of too much wind.

[Deeranged]

The hydro electric dam at Pitlochry is a pump storage system.
The power from wind turbines could only be used to pump up the water to a reservoir about the dam if the wind was blowing.
You need to remember that if is too windy wind turbines have to be switched off in case their spinning blades go out of control and shear off.

The reason they have to be switched off in high winds is that there's the potential the tip speed could exceed limits - tip speed is the controlling factor on any rotating aerofoil blade and can cause excessive vibration or flutter if the maximum operating design speed is exceeded. I doubt it would happen on a wind turbine but should the tip speed exceed the speed of sound it would definitely vibrate excessively and cause flutter as the properties explained by Boyle's law reverse at supersonic speeds and the blade effectively tries to work against it's direction of rotation in the area affected. In order to avoid the tip reaching dangerous speeds there's a gear box which will feather the blade to reduce the energy uptake and there is also a brake to stop the rotation.

The chance of a blade shearing off is almost zero even when excessive vibration / flutter takes place and there will be sensors to slow the blade by feathering or to apply the brake if required. Think of an aircraft propellor blade, it will be rotating at much higher velocity than a wind turbine blade but they really aren't prone to shearing.

[BCram]

The reason they have to be switched off in high winds is that there's the potential the tip speed could exceed limits - tip speed is the controlling factor on any rotating aerofoil blade and can cause excessive vibration or flutter if the maximum operating design speed is exceeded. I doubt it would happen on a wind turbine but should the tip speed exceed the speed of sound it would definitely vibrate excessively and cause flutter as the properties explained by Boyle's law reverse at supersonic speeds and the blade effectively tries to work against it's direction of rotation in the area affected. In order to avoid the tip reaching dangerous speeds there's a gear box which will feather the blade to reduce the energy uptake and there is also a brake to stop the rotation.

The chance of a blade shearing off is almost zero even when excessive vibration / flutter takes place and there will be sensors to slow the blade by feathering or to apply the brake if required. Think of an aircraft propellor blade, it will be rotating at much higher velocity than a wind turbine blade but they really aren't prone to shearing.

Thanks Deeranged. Good to know that when I am out near a wind farm that I am not likely to be in danger from a flying vane. I tried to find out how much energy could be expected from a turbine and its power output rating. It seems that there's a bit of debate about how much electricity will be generated and I would love to know if the principle of making payments to the owner of the turbines is only initiated if the demand from the grid is so low that there is no demand for wind power. It seemed to me that this is exactly when battery storage would be used. It find it hard to believe that batteries will ever be capable of storing enough electricity to smooth out the supply and create a 100% wind farm based renewable energy supply system.

[islaydarkblue]

The reason they have to be switched off in high winds is that there's the potential the tip speed could exceed limits - tip speed is the controlling factor on any rotating aerofoil blade and can cause excessive vibration or flutter if the maximum operating design speed is exceeded. I doubt it would happen on a wind turbine but should the tip speed exceed the speed of sound it would definitely vibrate excessively and cause flutter as the properties explained by Boyle's law reverse at supersonic speeds and the blade effectively tries to work against it's direction of rotation in the area affected. In order to avoid the tip reaching dangerous speeds there's a gear box which will feather the blade to reduce the energy uptake and there is also a brake to stop the rotation.

The chance of a blade shearing off is almost zero even when excessive vibration / flutter takes place and there will be sensors to slow the blade by feathering or to apply the brake if required. Think of an aircraft propellor blade, it will be rotating at much higher velocity than a wind turbine blade but they really aren't prone to shearing.

A number of years ago I saw a photograph on the internet of a large wind turbine where one of its blades had sheared off during storm force winds.
About four years there was a property for sale in the Rhinns area of Islay. Included in the sale was a free standing wind turbine which had blown over in stormy weather.
There was a photograph of the wind turbine which toppled over.