Matchday thread: Derby v Lincoln

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yet using the same (of course subjective) assessment of Roseniors knocked together squad I arrive at around 7, with poor James Chester the only fail, so the comparison shows a shortcoming

I think such comparisons are a tad iniquitous. We had zero expectation of Rosenior's hurriedly patched up squad, so it's performance across a handful of games would always have looked reasonable. Fans expectations (with the usual rapid forgetting of the recent past) rapidly escalated and so when PW's recruits didn't tear the league apart, they were suddenly crap.

Sure there have been failures (eg in the loan market in particular) but the less you pay, the greater incidence there will be of abject failure or, conversely, surprise success. Playing the free transfer market is hit or miss.

Look at the sainted Manchester United and it's transfer policy. Even with their massive resources, they have recently spunked away over £ 200 million on strikers Anthony (no goals, no assists in 19 games) Hojland (no league goals, no assists in 15 games) and Sancho (no comment needed). Yet their manager seems to be (curiously) untouchable, no doubt based on past successes. PW has had past success.

Managers need luck in recruiting, no matter how much they have to spend. The less money they have, the moe luck they need. Maybe LR was more lucky, maybe he is a better manager (Hull are doing well,) but frankly it doesn't matter. He isn't our manager now. No point looking back with rose tinted glasses.

[MadAmster]

Springett, White and Embleton can all be put on the fail list, IMO

Ward, John-Jules, Bradley, Washington and Elder all go on the undecided list. Some due to injury problems. others due to not hitting the heights expected of them

Vickers, Nyambe, Waghorn (up to his injury woes), Fornah, Wilson and Nelson can be viewed as reasonable to good signings IMO

Seeing that we haven't paid a penny on transfer fees (YET... I believe Fornah and Washington might cost a few bob if the KPI's in the contracts are met), 6 out of 14 isn't bad but can't be considered good either.

[swaledale]

Objective...he’s made 14 signings I think...Springett, White, Ward, Vickers, Nyambe, Waghorn, John-Jules, Fornah, Wilson, Bradley, Washington, Elder, Nelson and Embleton.
I think you forget that’s more than a whole new team, of which only two or three have, imo, proved genuine successes...so far.
Can’t imagine you being so forgiving of any other manager we’ve had having such a ‘success’ rate.
The signs are currently good and I obviously wish him well...but, all I’m saying is...on the evidence above, his transfer dealings need to improve and he needs to bring in players who will make an immediate impact this time.

I generally don't rate managers on their "success" rate with signings for a start! I judge them on what happens on the pitch and results, on that score I'm more than happy with Warne and consistently have been. Looking at the stats Derby have the 3rd best goal difference and the 2nd best defensive record, whats not to like?

Well I might be wrong, but I can't recall you slagging off the signings made by other managers for millions in the same way, or obsessing that they were still using the core of the team they took over 16 months ago!!

I just find it odd that Derby are in the play offs are unbeaten in the league for what 6 games? Yet your still harping on about the signings Warne's made. Furthermore, you gloss over the context, 1 transfer window with no EFL restrictions but a reality that the club has to operate within a sustainable business plan, which means it isn't automatically able to pay higher transfer fees or wages for players.

OK so lets look at the transfers (all free by the way) Springett and White were loans presumably the best available at the time, but clearly didn't add much thats loans for you. Ward, injury set him back but has talent and on paper a good signing. Vickers a good back up keeper. Nyambe no issue but was clearly a gamble as no other club had signed him. Waghorn, I was dubious at the time, but would say is a good squad player. John-Jules has the ability and worth a gamble as a loan. Fornah, well glimpses of what he could be. Wilson a good acquisition.
Bradley, a surprise he hasn't clicked but good back up. Washington disappointing, Elder been injured, Nelson excellent, Embleton, a potentially good player coming back from injury and he broke down again, it happens loans are a gamble.

So of the perm signings, Elder, Bradley, Washington are ones have actually not performed as expected.

Of the loans, Springett, White and Embleton I agree haven't worked out but thats loans. I'm not that concerned with loan signings, they are always a gamble, sometimes if like Lampard you can persuade your old club to loan you some top draw young players then its fine, often though your getting players that have potential or players that have suffered set backs


The others have all contributed, some more than others but then thats what happens and has happened when the club has paid millions for players! Plus your ignoring the fact that some existing players like Sibley for instance have performed well below par this season, whereas Collins seems to have improved over last season.

So his transfer dealings need to improve and he needs to bring in players who will make an immediate impact this time?

I fear you may be disappointed! He is still fishing in the same pool. the club cannot afford to be paying over the top on transfer fees or wages, it still has to have an eye on the future, so must balance getting a player in who might increase the chances of promotion, against say 2 players who will add to the depth of the squad. January is not a good window, its either going to be a player that can be tempted (and a club willing to sell) to move mid season or a loan.

On top of that of course is the reality that any player no matter what his pedigree can move clubs and not perform, get injured or take time to gell. I'd settle for a couple of signings that add to the depth of the squad and are able to fit into the team.

[swaledale]

I think such comparisons are a tad iniquitous. We had zero expectation of Rosenior's hurriedly patched up squad, so it's performance across a handful of games would always have looked reasonable. Fans expectations (with the usual rapid forgetting of the recent past) rapidly escalated and so when PW's recruits didn't tear the league apart, they were suddenly crap.

Sure there have been failures (eg in the loan market in particular) but the less you pay, the greater incidence there will be of abject failure or, conversely, surprise success. Playing the free transfer market is hit or miss.

Look at the sainted Manchester United and it's transfer policy. Even with their massive resources, they have recently spunked away over £ 200 million on strikers Anthony (no goals, no assists in 19 games) Hojland (no league goals, no assists in 15 games) and Sancho (no comment needed). Yet their manager seems to be (curiously) untouchable, no doubt based on past successes. PW has had past success.

Managers need luck in recruiting, no matter how much they have to spend. The less money they have, the moe luck they need. Maybe LR was more lucky, maybe he is a better manager (Hull are doing well,) but frankly it doesn't matter. He isn't our manager now. No point looking back with rose tinted glasses.

Nail on the head hit!!

[ramAnag]

I generally don't rate managers on their "success" rate with signings for a start! I judge them on what happens on the pitch and results, on that score I'm more than happy with Warne and consistently have been. Looking at the stats Derby have the 3rd best goal difference and the 2nd best defensive record, whats not to like?

Well I might be wrong, but I can't recall you slagging off the signings made by other managers for millions in the same way, or obsessing that they were still using the core of the team they took over 16 months ago!!

I just find it odd that Derby are in the play offs are unbeaten in the league for what 6 games? Yet your still harping on about the signings Warne's made. Furthermore, you gloss over the context, 1 transfer window with no EFL restrictions but a reality that the club has to operate within a sustainable business plan, which means it isn't automatically able to pay higher transfer fees or wages for players.

OK so lets look at the transfers (all free by the way) Springett and White were loans presumably the best available at the time, but clearly didn't add much thats loans for you. Ward, injury set him back but has talent and on paper a good signing. Vickers a good back up keeper. Nyambe no issue but was clearly a gamble as no other club had signed him. Waghorn, I was dubious at the time, but would say is a good squad player. John-Jules has the ability and worth a gamble as a loan. Fornah, well glimpses of what he could be. Wilson a good acquisition.
Bradley, a surprise he hasn't clicked but good back up. Washington disappointing, Elder been injured, Nelson excellent, Embleton, a potentially good player coming back from injury and he broke down again, it happens loans are a gamble.

So of the perm signings, Elder, Bradley, Washington are ones have actually not performed as expected.

Of the loans, Springett, White and Embleton I agree haven't worked out but thats loans. I'm not that concerned with loan signings, they are always a gamble, sometimes if like Lampard you can persuade your old club to loan you some top draw young players then its fine, often though your getting players that have potential or players that have suffered set backs


The others have all contributed, some more than others but then thats what happens and has happened when the club has paid millions for players! Plus your ignoring the fact that some existing players like Sibley for instance have performed well below par this season, whereas Collins seems to have improved over last season.

So his transfer dealings need to improve and he needs to bring in players who will make an immediate impact this time?

I fear you may be disappointed! He is still fishing in the same pool. the club cannot afford to be paying over the top on transfer fees or wages, it still has to have an eye on the future, so must balance getting a player in who might increase the chances of promotion, against say 2 players who will add to the depth of the squad. January is not a good window, its either going to be a player that can be tempted (and a club willing to sell) to move mid season or a loan.

On top of that of course is the reality that any player no matter what his pedigree can move clubs and not perform, get injured or take time to gell. I'd settle for a couple of signings that add to the depth of the squad and are able to fit into the team.

Look Swale, old horse...it’s Christmas Eve and the last thing I want to do is fall out with you...again.

You don’t rate managers by their ‘success rate’ with signings. Really? I think you’ll find most people do...especially owners.

I’m not, and never have been, talking about him using the previous ‘core’ of the side...this latest discussion has been (almost) exclusively about PW’s dealings in the transfer market and I can’t be more objective than to list his 14 signings and judge them...or allow others to do so.
As it happens AF has put on his accountant’s head and attributed value to each signing on my list. I’d only disagree fractionally...one less for Vickers and one more for White but my ultimate conclusion would be the same and that leads me to conclude that PW’s transfer dealings have been disappointing so far.
Whether they’re officially free transfers or not doesn’t really matter...there’s nothing remotely free about them once they’re on the payroll and the fact is that DCFC have paid a lot of money since the summer for players who’ve made little impact.

I’m hoping for an improvement with two, possibly if we’re lucky, three (all subject to any outgoing factors which we don’t have the details of yet) significant and game changing January additions.

I see you’re hoping for much the same, so let’s just agree to share our hopes and differ on some interpretations, cease your apparent obsession with me and enjoy Christmas which will hopefully include a Boxing Day victory at Wigan.

[ramAnag]

I think such comparisons are a tad iniquitous. We had zero expectation of Rosenior's hurriedly patched up squad, so it's performance across a handful of games would always have looked reasonable. Fans expectations (with the usual rapid forgetting of the recent past) rapidly escalated and so when PW's recruits didn't tear the league apart, they were suddenly crap.

Sure there have been failures (eg in the loan market in particular) but the less you pay, the greater incidence there will be of abject failure or, conversely, surprise success. Playing the free transfer market is hit or miss.

Look at the sainted Manchester United and it's transfer policy. Even with their massive resources, they have recently spunked away over £ 200 million on strikers Anthony (no goals, no assists in 19 games) Hojland (no league goals, no assists in 15 games) and Sancho (no comment needed). Yet their manager seems to be (curiously) untouchable, no doubt based on past successes. PW has had past success.

Managers need luck in recruiting, no matter how much they have to spend. The less money they have, the moe luck they need. Maybe LR was more lucky, maybe he is a better manager (Hull are doing well,) but frankly it doesn't matter. He isn't our manager now. No point looking back with rose tinted glasses.

All good...except that ‘Rosenior’s hurriedly patched up squad’ wasn’t judged on a ‘handful of games’. It was (Springett’s and White’s minimal contributions apart) the squad that got us to 7th last season.

[Geoff Parkstone]

All good...except that ‘Rosenior’s hurriedly patched up squad’ wasn’t judged on a ‘handful of games’. It was (Springett’s and White’s minimal contributions apart) the squad that got us to 7th last season.

On which basis Warne's squad is to date better... If you want to credit Rosenior's squad for 7th based on a full season where he only ran the team for a handful of games, then the new Warne squad (including players that predated him,) must be considered better as we are now 4th.

You can't have it both ways!

Was success down to recruitment or day to day management? Why was Rosenior binned so quickly? All good questions but introspective and ultimately pointless.

We must judge success holistically - at the moment, having played over 90% of the division once, we are among the top 6. It's due to a number of factors, recruitment being just one (important) factor. As is luck, injuries, tactics, player performance etc.

[MadAmster]

We must judge success holistically - at the moment, having played over 90% of the division once, we are among the top 6. It's due to a number of factors, recruitment being just one (important) factor. As is luck, injuries, tactics, player performance etc.

Luck - not had much much of that, certainly not our fair share. Bolton away, 2 nailed on penalties not given. Good goal disallowed to give us a penalty (in fairness to the ref, he did blow well before the ball went in the net). Then gave Notlob a penalty for an offence committed outside the box....

Injuries - more than our fair share of those.

Tactics - Started the season with PWs favoured 3 at the back with limited success. Once we got Nyambe in a 4 worked very well.

Player performance - Who has performed well? Wildsmith, Nelson, Cashin, Nyambe, Collins, NML once he got going. The rest have been pretty much up and down swapping between 1 and 3 decent games with a similar amount of average at best games. Of late passing to a teammate has become a problem.

[Andy_Faber]

One thing for sure, if we lose either Cashin Nyambe or both, and can't/won't seek a replacement, one particular of Warne's duds has got to step up big time, he currently gives me the willies even just appearing on the sub's bench

[ramAnag]

On which basis Warne's squad is to date better... If you want to credit Rosenior's squad for 7th based on a full season where he only ran the team for a handful of games, then the new Warne squad (including players that predated him,) must be considered better as we are now 4th.

You can't have it both ways!

Was success down to recruitment or day to day management? Why was Rosenior binned so quickly? All good questions but introspective and ultimately pointless.

We must judge success holistically - at the moment, having played over 90% of the division once, we are among the top 6. It's due to a number of factors, recruitment being just one (important) factor. As is luck, injuries, tactics, player performance etc.

You can’t help but ‘credit Rosenior’s squad for 7th’, GP. Everyone accepts that Springett and White added little so it was Rosenior’s squad that finished the season, where he had left them, in seventh.

I’m honestly not trying to ‘have it both ways’ and you can’t say now that, because we’re currently 4th, we must be better. Last season under Warne we went, if I remember correctly, from 7th to...7th via the brief vertigo inducing heights of third and the depths of twelfth. It’s where we are in May that matters along with what PW can pull out of the ‘hat’ in the January sales to strengthen our squad.

Is Rosenior ‘better’ than Warne? In my opinion, ‘yes’, but, as you’ve suggested, it just doesn’t matter because what’s done is done.

Is the current squad stronger? It certainly should be because we brought in a great deal more than we shipped out during the summer and I think, certainly in terms of us having more cover, it probably is...yes...but I still feel that, with today’s squad the players I feel we’d miss most are Wildsmith, Cashin, NML and Bird along with, to a slightly less consistent extent, Collins, Hourihane and Smith. Only Nelson, Nyambe (if he’s still here) and Wilson (when available) of Warne’s dozen summer signings generate the same feelings in me.

Finally...it’s repeatedly suggested that you can’t get a twenty goal a season striker on a free. Well Rosenior managed it, in the most appalling circumstances 17 months ago and actually Collins isn’t far off target for managing the same feat this season. So...absolutely no point moaning about Rosenior though I remain grateful for what he did for us. What matters now is where Warne can guide us and that begins, as did this whole argument, with, imo, his improved showing in the January window.