O/T:- Navalny

[Kent Magpie]

A few people in this thread have indicated that they believe that Russia’s invasion had nothing to do with NATO encroachment into Ukraine.

However I would remind them that Zelensky, president of Ukraine,
Jens Stoltenberg, the president of NATO, and members of Ukraine’s negotiating team, including their chief negotiator Davyd Arakhamia have publicly stated their disagreement by confirming that Ukrainian neutrality vis-a-vis NATO is the primary reason for Russia’s “special military operation.”

In the video linked to the article below, dated March 22, 2022, Zelenskyy is shown saying,

“Security guarantees and neutrality, non-nuclear status of our state. We are ready to go for it. This is the most important point. It was the main point for the Russian Federation as far as I can remember. And if I remember correctly this is why they started the war… I understand it’s impossible to force Russia completely from Ukrainian territory. It would lead to World War Three. I understand it and that is why I am talking about a compromise. Go back to where it all began. And then we will try to solve the Donbas issue, the complicated Donbas issue.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2022-03-27/

On Sept 7, 2023, Jan’s Stoltenburg gave a speech to the European Union parliament in which he admitted that NATO enlargement was the primary reason for Russia’s invasion. He said,

The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-...Mog&format=amp

Furthermore, there were peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine in March or 2022, the month following the start of the invasion. While the negotiations were ultimately unsuccessful, several members of the Ukrainian negotiating team, including their chief negotiator, Davyd Arakhamia, has admitted that Ukrainian neutrality vis-a-vis NATO was clearly Putin’s primary objective in negotiations. In an interview with Natalia Moseichuk on Ukrainian State tv, he said:

“They really hoped almost to the last moment that they would force us to sign such an agreement so that we would take neutrality. It was the most important thing for them. They were prepared to end the war if we agreed to, – as Finland once did, – neutrality, and committed that we would not join NATO.

In fact, this was the key point. Everything else was simply rhetoric and political ‘seasoning’ about denazification, the Russian-speaking population and blah-blah-blah."


One may argue whether or not sovereign nations have the right to join their own defensive alliances unhindered - it’s certainly a fair debate. But what I find to be a more pertinent question is whether or not the leadership of certain NATO member states (namely the United States) rightly predicted that Ukraine’s path to NATO would lead to a Russian invasion, and if so, was that their intended outcome? I think certain evidence points to ‘yes’, although I’m open to hearing evidence that they were completely surprised by the result.

Andy, what is your view on Navalny's death? Who if anybody do you think is responsible?

[andy6025]

Andy, what is your view on Navalny's death? Who if anybody do you think is responsible?

I don’t know for sure but I think it’s reasonable to suspect that he was assassinated. Whether that was done because he’s a grassroots lover of freedom and democracy and was a threat to Russia’s political establishment, or whether he was a CIA/MI6 asset that was on their payroll to destabilize Russia at the behest of western foreign powers - I really don’t know.

Political assassinations are nothing new. Many believe Jefferey Epstein was assassinated in an American prison because he posed a threat to important and powerful politicians and celebrities, etc. Gonzalo Lira, as another example, was a Chilean journalist/blogger who recently died in an Ukraine jail for the crime of having criticized the Ukrainian government in YouTube videos. And yet another example is that Israeli troops appear to intentionally assassinate journalists reporting on Israel’s war crimes in Gaza and the West Bank. And lastly, Yevgeny Prigozhin (Aka “Putin’s Chef”) is believed by many to have been assassinated on Putin’s orders for his brief rebellion that the west cheered on and momentarily thought was going to be a monumental turning point in the Russo-Ukrainian war.

Yes, political assassinations certainly have a long history, and supposed “democracies” are no exceptions. Mysteriously though we have a tendency to project that we’re somehow above them. But the CIA has a long history of it, from Congo to Latin America and beyond.

[Jampie]

If Putin's war in Ukraine was to prevent NATO piling up on his borders its failed spectacularly at that too, considering it convinced Finland to join.

[upthemaggies]

Yes, political assassinations certainly have a long history, and supposed “democracies” are no exceptions. Mysteriously though we have a tendency to project that we’re somehow above them.

Lest we forget, our very own David Kelly

[andy6025]

If Putin's war in Ukraine was to prevent NATO piling up on his borders its failed spectacularly at that too, considering it convinced Finland to join.

While i don’t think Russians are happy that Finland joined NATO, they consider Ukraine to eclipse it by far in terms of core geo strategic interests. And thus far they have prevented it from joining NATO.

Of course, from the Russian point of view they probably perceive that there’s been a slurry of side benefits to the invasion - some that might have been unpredictable, at least in their magnitude. For example, the extent to which the Europeans, and the Germans and uk in particular, have wrecked their own economies in response. I have little doubt that the Kremlin smells like cigars over that one.

But Europe seems quite content with the way things are going, so full steam ahead. And now that Finland is in the club (I hear that even Finnish children can kill 10 Russians with their bare hands) it’s all but a nail in the coffin to Putin’s imperialist plans.

[andy6025]

Lest we forget, our very own David Kelly

Yes, well brought up. I think there’s a documentary about his case that is said to be quite good, but I can’t remember what it’s called.

[Kent Magpie]

While i don’t think Russians are happy that Finland joined NATO, they consider Ukraine to eclipse it by far in terms of core geo strategic interests. And thus far they have prevented it from joining NATO.

Of course, from the Russian point of view they probably perceive that there’s been a slurry of side benefits to the invasion - some that might have been unpredictable, at least in their magnitude. For example, the extent to which the Europeans, and the Germans and uk in particular, have wrecked their own economies in response. I have little doubt that the Kremlin smells like cigars over that one.

But Europe seems quite content with the way things are going, so full steam ahead. And now that Finland is in the club (I hear that even Finnish children can kill 10 Russians with their bare hands) it’s all but a nail in the coffin to Putin’s imperialist plans.

I think you are giving Putin far too much credit for our economic demise, we have done that all by ourselves, but it suits the government to blame Putin as it stops them from having to address the effects of Brexit and their own mismanagement. Our slide had started way before the war in Ukraine, and even before the pandemic (another big cause of our woes). So, much as you would like to toast Putin's genius, I think you are wrong about this.

[andy6025]

I think you are giving Putin far too much credit for our economic demise, we have done that all by ourselves, but it suits the government to blame Putin as it stops them from having to address the effects of Brexit and their own mismanagement. Our slide had started way before the war in Ukraine, and even before the pandemic (another big cause of our woes). So, much as you would like to toast Putin's genius, I think you are wrong about this.

While you’re not wrong on Brexit and Covid, etc., to be fair I did say that Europe wrecked their own economies rather than crediting Putin.

[SmiffyPie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68359252
No doubt this will be trashed by some but it is an interesting article.

[BigFatPie]

Putin should withdraw from the countries he’s invaded and he should stop murdering his political opponents. It would be nice if he could be tried for his crimes, but I accept that’s very unlikely.

Why the apologists and appeasers don’t think these things I’m not entirely sure.