Ulster Scots

[mogwaiCSC]

A much maligned and misunderstood great bunch of lads. Discuss.

[BertrandRussell]

Can't we discuss Plastic Paddies like you instead?

[mogwaiCSC]

Can't we discuss Plastic Paddies like you instead?

Here me out greig I am trying to look beyond the inane tribalism that dominates this forum on a monotonously daily basis with yet another tartan WATP thread. Is there a point when we can seriously discuss the elephant in the room with sincere and intellectual honesty for a change?

[BertrandRussell]

Well I don't really think they are recognised, never mind maligned, around most of the world. Most people see you as either Scottish or Irish.

The only place where it's an issue is in the British Isles.

Scots and Ulster Scots saw a high point in their endeavours after the industrial revolution. You could argue that our culture is in decline and that we have little to offer the world anymore.

From a religious viewpoint, I'd have to say that Presbyterianism is in obvious decline, yet is a more progressive and responsible religion than Catholicism.

[mogwaiCSC]

Well I don't really think they are recognised, never mind maligned, around most of the world. Most people see you as either Scottish or Irish.

The only place where it's an issue is in the British Isles.

Scots and Ulster Scots saw a high point in their endeavours after the industrial revolution. You could argue that our culture is in decline and that we have little to offer the world anymore.

From a religious viewpoint, I'd have to say that Presbyterianism is in obvious decline, yet is a more progressive and responsible religion than Catholicism.

I agree with most of that. Historically Ulster Scots have been a very significant ethnic group especially in shaping the American character. Over a quarter of a million emigrated to the States from Ulster not because of problems with their catholic neighbours but because of persecution from the English who demanded allegiance to the established church. Indeed Ulster Presby

[BertrandRussell]

Seems fair enough.

I'm not sure that a lot can be done about the rift between the Nationalists and Unionists in Northern Ireland - it's too ingrained in the culture now.

In Scotland, it's mostly pantomime stuff in comparison.

As for America - well the Ulster Scots were prominent in the shaping of that nation but look where that's got us? It's weird but I see the disposing of organised religion as a progressive thing but at the same time, I think the Western world desperately needs some Christian values.

[mogwaiCSC]

I'm not sure that a lot can be done about the rift between the Nationalists and Unionists in Northern Ireland - it's too ingrained in the culture now.



sadly that is true together with a great deal of historical revisionism. Even the most celebrated event in the consciousness of Ulster the battle of the boyne was less about protestant v catholic and more about French expansionism. The Pope was one of the principal cheerleaders of the King Billy stand and his side had its papal blessing (there is even a painting in the vaults of Stormont depicting this event). Both King Billy and The Pope were part of the League of Ausburg alliance against France.

[BertrandRussell]

The main reason England were so keen to unite with Scotland was also down to France. Wouldn't have happened otherwise.

[mogwaiCSC]

Scotland did indeed become a pawn in the tug of war between England and France. That and the scots establishment phuck up in the Dariam Scheme which almost bankrupted the country and the ruling aristocracy handing itself over to England to protect their own interests.

[BertrandRussell]

I would argue that they did so in the interests of the population at large as well.

Just finished reading The Union by Michael Fry and it would appear that the last Scottish parliament was chock full of intellectuals and celebrated thinkers. It's a good read, by the way.

[mogwaiCSC]

Not read that but I would contest that ruling elites (and in this case in particular) act in the interests of the population at large. It certainly benefited them personally. The act of union was deeply unpopular a**** the masses and several popular riots in Edinburgh and Glasgow were put down.

[BertrandRussell]

Well yes but are you suggesting the Scottish populace were well versed in economics and reason at that time?

I would suggest not.

[mogwaiCSC]

Countries all through history have found themselves in difficult economical situations the default position though tends not to surrender your identity as a nation and hand over its power to another nation.

[BertrandRussell]

I think Scotland was unique at the time. We united with England but it was to our own economic advantage and largely on our own terms. That never happened anywhere else.