Why Are England So S hit?

[peterknowlesburnside]

I was reading a piece by Martin Swain in the E+S last night on this subject and it was very depressing. He was basically saying England are so far away from the top world teams that there isn't much hope. On a personal level I would say that the race we are most likened to in the whole world is the Germans. They have won three World Cups, been beaten finalists four times, and even got third place four times. They have been semi-finalists in the last four World Cups. None of those German sides (and I have been watching them for 50 years) have been spectacular to watch. So what is it that they are doing right and we are doing wrong?

[JonDeWolf]

Lack of belief- the likes of Germany never walk out expecting to lose

Lack of team ethic- supposedly 'inferior' teams like Costa Rica progress by working their asses off as a team

Lack of desire- they're already rolling in money so what's their incentive- nothing like the patriotism shown by the likes of Brazil, Chile, etc

[1877wolf]

Lack of belief- the likes of Germany never walk out expecting to lose

Lack of team ethic- supposedly 'inferior' teams like Costa Rica progress by working their asses off as a team

Lack of desire- they're already rolling in money so what's their incentive- nothing like the patriotism shown by the likes of Brazil, Chile, etc

Great post that sums it all up in a nutshell.

[wolves71]

Added to what JDW has posted, Germany have a winning mentality and know how to close games down. If they do fail, they look at ways of re-inventing their football philosophy. Starting with coaching and also blooding players in and giving them tournament experience at U21 level. All the German players are good technically.

[1877wolf]

Also, we haven't learnt to dive and feign injury yet at international level.
Arjen Robben makes me sick, Klinsmann was the same.

FIFA probably claim it is "part of the game".

[theplater]

Simple! The system, compounded by the expectation!

Swain has written nothing new to what many of us have been banging on about for, at least, the last 4 years!

Actually, at the minute we're not so far in the mire as some of you seem to think we are!

[theplater]

Simple! The system, compounded by the expectation!

Swain has written nothing new to what many of us have been banging on about for, at least, the last 4 years!

Actually, at the minute we're not so far in the mire as some of you seem to think we are!

Ok! Here's a couple of things to think about.

Just after we'd lost to Uraguay, and were almost certain to go home without getting out of the group stages I wrote a post saying there were some positives to take out of this tournament. I stand by everything I said! Infact I'll go a bit further!

I think to some extent some of the gap that was a mile wide between us and the rest of the best after South Africa has narrowed, not because we've necessarily improved but because some of the rest haven't only not improved but have actually got less talent available now than we thought they would have.

Look at Brazil? No way is their squad on a par of that a decade ago! Germany? A Country I agree we should base our blueprint on for the future o

[TundraWolf]

I will throw out my observations and hope someone else can respond to it through expansion or criticism.

England's footballers would seem to have the following priorities:

1) the individual;
2) salary/money;
3) club;
4) country.

Pts 2 & 3 expand on pt 1, inasmuch as each player looks after themselves and see success in their well publicized salaries...relative to their peers. Thus a competition is bred amongst and between fellow footballers as to one's personal accomplishments, who has the bigger salary, and which club can they jump to who is willing to top their present offer more!

Take these spoiled, narcissistic, self-centred louts and every four years attempt to whip them into a self-less, team of players willing to sacrifice for others...sorry, can't be done.

Until one's country is placed before their selfish interests then we will be stuck with a group of self-centred narcissists who cannot see beyond their personal fame and fortune! And, thus, will never bring 100% of thems

[JonDeWolf]

Personally I'd say it was unfair to include Belgium as under-achievers- yes they've inherited the lazy journalistic header 'Golden Generation' but for all but Van Buyten, this is their first experience of tournament football- the trick will be how they take it forwards from here. At Euro 2016, Origi and Januzaj will be the grand old age of 21, Lukaku 23, Hazard and Benteke 25- even Kompany will only be 30. They're also currently under a rookie manager in Wilmots- should they decide to change they'll attract bigger and more experienced managers and as long they're not called Eriksson or Capello they should improve the team. We'll see but quarters for first time out isn't too bad.

Briefly back to England... expectation ? I think in the past I'd have agreed but this tournament had probably the lowest expectations of an England team in a finals tournament I can remember. Didn't make much difference.

[Stourportwolf]

[quote="theplater"]Simple! The system, compounded by the expectation!

Swain has written nothing new to what many of us have been banging on about for, at least, the last 4 years!

Actually, at the minute we're not so far in the mire as some of you seem to think we are!

Ok! Here's a couple of things to think about.

Just after we'd lost to Uraguay, and were almost certain to go home without getting out of the group stages I wrote a post saying there were some positives to take out of this tournament. I stand by everything I said! Infact I'll go a bit further!

I think to some extent some of the gap that was a mile wide between us and the rest of the best after South Africa has narrowed, not because we've necessarily improved but because some of the rest haven't only not improved but have actually got less talent available now than we thought they would have.

Look at Brazil? No way is their squad on a par of that a decade ago! Germany? A Country I agree w

[greystone16]

Look no further than the Premiership and see how many English players are in the top teams, we are virtually training their squads to the detriment of our young players. Not too many of our players in Brazilian, Argentina , Spanish, etc sides!!!!!.Its getting worse,just look at the current transfer market and see who the big clubs are after,you'll hardly see and English.There must be a limit of 2/3 foreign players and sod what the EU says.

[Woking88]

Chucking a couple of things into the debate:

1. Our National Anthem is hardly the rousing, stirring motivator that is likely to inspire the team.

2. Our forwards have got to learn to move about and create problems for the opposition defence. We seemed to be totally static, predictable and easy to mark, from what I saw.

[tony]

Our National Anthem is hardly the rousing, stirring motivator that is likely to inspire the team.


FFS that's ridiculous...

What do you expect them to play?

The theme tune to Stingray???

[Acido]

The players greed has got worse and worse since Sky and the Champions League started to take over, and its clear now where their own priorities lie.

I really wish we could force the limited foreigners rule, make it no more than 4 or 5 in any team and see if that makes a difference. But the Premier Lg teams wont allow it.

[MichiganWolf]

I am reading Soccernomics and Kuper argues that the foreign influx has little to do with England struggling in big tournaments. He believes that, if anything, there should be less English players in the Prem. More English players need to be playing abroad and experiencing different styles and cultures of football.

He also says that the English are limiting their talent pool too much as a vast majority of players come from families in the working class. There needs to be better recruitment and training of the middle class as the traditional working class has shrunk over the years and England has become a very middle class nation.

[Woking88]

Our National Anthem is hardly the rousing, stirring motivator that is likely to inspire the team.


FFS that's ridiculous...

What do you expect them to play?

The theme tune to Stingray???[/quote]

You have more intelligence than that, Tony! Our National Anthem is pretty dreary stuff compared with what we could have. It has been discussed on here before enough times!

[Stourportwolf]

I think the national anthem, and the singing of it, has got f()ck all to do with a team's performance, and the argument put forward that if you don't sing it like some demented X Factor wanabee then you are not pumped up enough, is complete rubbish.

Look at the Brazilian anthem, jaunty little number, David Luiz shook his curly little locks to it, and then proceeded to play like a nob.
England's rugby players are often cited in this argument, but it hasn't stopped them getting some right hammerings.



And Tony, you know it should be this - view external link (http://youtu.be/BfIAKj3Gl1E)

[Woking88]

I didn't find the lyrics very inspiring! :)

[sweeneywolf]

Le Marseillaise is arguably one of the best and most rousing anthems... always sung with gusto but the Frenchies looked inert on their last outing.

That said, I am embarrassed by the lame God Save the Queen and do wish we had our own tune as Englishmen.

Once again the Scots and the Welsh get concessions we wouldn't dare comtemplate.

They are applauded for nationalism we almost apologise for it.

Whatever the tune , we are shhite and will continue to be until massive structural changes are made to our U19 , U21 and Full international succession planning PLUS the EPL playing more English players.

I fear we will be waiting along time for changes to tune and teams IF EVER. :blue:

[TundraWolf]

"Jerusalem" would be my suggestion. But I doubt I have a vote not being a member of The House of Lords.:blue:

[wolves71]

What next blame it on the shirts the players wear? if they can't get motivated by playing in a world cup then it's time to pack. The national anthem may be outdated, but i doubt it can be used as any source for motivation.

[Woking88]

Posted 10 Jul 2014 19:33

re: Why Are England So S hit? ...
'Stourportwolf' wrote at 16:54 on 10 Jul:
I think the national anthem, and the singing of it, has got f()ck all to do with a team's performance, and the argument put forward that if you don't sing it like some demented X Factor wanabee then you are not pumped up enough, is complete rubbish.

Look at the Brazilian anthem, jaunty little number, David Luiz shook his curly little locks to it, and then proceeded to play like a nob.
England's rugby players are often cited in this argument, but it hasn't stopped them getting some right hammerings.



And Tony, you know it should be this


Most teams go through a 'ritual' from in the dressing room to on the pitch and up to kick off. This is designed to get players to the start of the match in a positive frame of mind. With Wolves, the 'huddle' is a clear part of this.

Clearly individual clubs do not sing their national anthem, but national teams do and it will be part of the ritual.

[Woking88]

What next blame it on the shirts the players wear? if they can't get motivated by playing in a world cup then it's time to pack. The national anthem may be outdated, but i doubt it can be used as any source for motivation.

It seems to work regularly for the Germans! ;D

[wolves71]

It's up to the coach, his staff and players to get motivated. Pride should be in representing their country. Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen". You can't force players to be "patriotic".

[Woking88]

[quote="wolves71".[/quote]

"Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen"."

Not quite sure that was ever part of the discussion!

The anthem thing is a minor point - not the be all and end all. I would have thought that was obvious!

[wolves71]

"Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen"."

Not quite sure that was ever part of the discussion!

The anthem thing is a minor point - not the be all and end all. I would have thought that was obvious!

Strange as with all replies before you mentioned the national anthem, it was all about football, but if anyone was going to take it away from the subject, it would be you!

[Woking88]

"Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen"."

Not quite sure that was ever part of the discussion!

The anthem thing is a minor point - not the be all and end all. I would have thought that was obvious!

Strange as with all replies before you mentioned the national anthem, it was all about football, but if anyone was going to take it away from the subject, it would be you![/quote]

See #22. Is there something there that is unclear?

[wolves71]

"Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen"."

Not quite sure that was ever part of the discussion!

The anthem thing is a minor point - not the be all and end all. I would have thought that was obvious!

Strange as with all replies before you mentioned the national anthem, it was all about football, but if anyone was going to take it away from the subject, it would be you![/quote]

See #22. Is there something there that is unclear?[/quote]

See #12, that's was my point, but because you got picked up on point one, you're now trying to do go into yo

[snod82]

What really tells the tale is what I read today...

Going back 5 years ago we we're resoundingly thumped 4-0 in the U21's European championship final by Germany.

6 of that team started Germany's 7-1 humiliation of Brazil (Neuer, Hummels, Boateng, Howedes, Khedira and Ozil), guess how many of our team made our World Cup squad?

Yep, 1! Bit part utility player James Milner.

We never send our best players to these youth tournaments (did Rooney even play for the U21s?), once they play for the full team they or their club feel it's pointless to play them. Tell that to Germany or Spain who always send their best players even if they have played for the full team.

This gets them used to international tournaments and a winning mentality whilst wearing your national shirt.

It doesn't seem that long ago that we beat Germany 5-1 in Munich, after that the Germans sorted their youth system out and are now reaping the benefits whilst we have plodded on and gone backwards.

[wolves71]

[quote="snod82"]What really tells the tale is what I read today...

Going back 5 years ago we we're resoundingly thumped 4-0 in the U21's European championship final by Germany.

6 of that team started Germany's 7-1 humiliation of Brazil (Neuer, Hummels, Boateng, Howedes, Khedira and Ozil), guess how many of our team made our World Cup squad?

Yep, 1! Bit part utility player James Milner.

We never send our best players to these youth tournaments (did Rooney even play for the U21s?), once they play for the full team they or their club feel it's pointless to play them. Tell that to Germany or Spain who always send their best players even if they have played for the full team.

This gets them used to international tournaments and a winning mentality whilst wearing your national shirt.

It doesn't seem that long ago that we beat Germany 5-1 in Munich, after that the Germans sorted their youth system out and are now reaping the benefits whilst we have plo

[1877wolf]

Ok.

Ban all national anthems for 4years and see where we stand then, see how we perform in international tournaments.

I'll tell you where we will be.

Still as s hit and still as far behind as we are now.

Anthems could probably be compared to drugs and alcohol, they may make you feel great and give you the belief that you can take on the world. Then reality kicks in and you end up acting like a d1ck.

[snod82]

[quote="wolves71"]What really tells the tale is what I read today...

Going back 5 years ago we we're resoundingly thumped 4-0 in the U21's European championship final by Germany.

6 of that team started Germany's 7-1 humiliation of Brazil (Neuer, Hummels, Boateng, Howedes, Khedira and Ozil), guess how many of our team made our World Cup squad?

Yep, 1! Bit part utility player James Milner.

We never send our best players to these youth tournaments (did Rooney even play for the U21s?), once they play for the full team they or their club feel it's pointless to play them. Tell that to Germany or Spain who always send their best players even if they have played for the full team.

This gets them used to international tournaments and a winning mentality whilst wearing your national shirt.

It doesn't seem that long ago that we beat Germany 5-1 in Munich, after that the Germans sorted their youth system out and a

[wolves71]

[quote="snod82"]What really tells the tale is what I read today...

Going back 5 years ago we we're resoundingly thumped 4-0 in the U21's European championship final by Germany.

6 of that team started Germany's 7-1 humiliation of Brazil (Neuer, Hummels, Boateng, Howedes, Khedira and Ozil), guess how many of our team made our World Cup squad?

Yep, 1! Bit part utility player James Milner.

We never send our best players to these youth tournaments (did Rooney even play for the U21s?), once they play for the full team they or their club feel it's pointless to play them. Tell that to Germany or Spain who always send their best players even if they have played for the full team.

This gets them used to international tournaments and a winning mentality whilst wearing your national shirt.

It doesn't seem that long ago that we beat Germany 5-1 in Munich, after that the

[Woking88]

"Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen"."

Not quite sure that was ever part of the discussion!

The anthem thing is a minor point - not the be all and end all. I would have thought that was obvious!

Strange as with all replies before you mentioned the national anthem, it was all about football, but if anyone was going to take it away from the subject, it would be you![/quote]

See #22. Is there something there that is unclear?[/quote]

See #12, that's was my point, but because you got picked up on

[wolves71]

"Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen"."

Not quite sure that was ever part of the discussion!

The anthem thing is a minor point - not the be all and end all. I would have thought that was obvious!

Strange as with all replies before you mentioned the national anthem, it was all about football, but if anyone was going to take it away from the subject, it would be you![/quote]

See #22. Is there something there that is unclear?[/quote]

See #12, that's w

[Woking88]

Well I only saw one ffs, the rest has been people giving their opinions which is what a forum is for.

I quoted the part of your #24 which had nothing to do with my original comment which was -

"1. Our National Anthem is hardly the rousing, stirring motivator that is likely to inspire the team."

Now how does that marry up with-

Not how high they reach a note or blast out "god save the queen". How it is sung is not the point being made.

I am not 'playing the victim' or deciding how threads go It is a forum for people to express their views and opinions and that is exactly what I have done.

[wolves71]

Maybe i should have added a smiley just for you then ;D if that was what was required? If with #24 i was replying directly to you i would have quoted you, but you jump on the post which i made a couple of good points, but again you decide to "Not quite sure that was ever part of the discussion!".

Look how you replied to Tony, questioning his intelligence, not one of your finest posts.

As with all your replies, it's an open forum, live with it or email your friend. :P

[Woking88]

Nice 'wriggle' in your first para, Gav! ;)

Re Tony, he is more intelligent than that! How can you have what is basically an instrumental as a national anthem? I suppose we could all tap-dance to it!

Re paragraph 3 - it is rather more than one!:)

Have a good evening! :)

PS - bit of a shame that you take this stance as I have a lot of respect for you!

[wolves71]

Nice 'wriggle' in your first para, Gav! ;)

Re Tony, he is more intelligent than that! How can you have what is basically an instrumental as a national anthem? I suppose we could all tap-dance to it!

Re paragraph 3 - it is rather more than one!:)

Have a good evening! :)

PS - bit of a shame that you take this stance as I have a lot of respect for you!

Tony's reply was laughing at what you posted and in his usual comedy way replied as he did, myself and others got what it meant. With paragraph three, the info is in a persons profile, i wouldn't leave my email address for all to see on an open forum.

PS i'm backing up and replying just like yourself, it's not really about how you say you respect me or any other poster. I know who to reply to on here and other forums, i think you remind me a lot of Micky D/Chim_Chimminee on the Bennies forum. Others will know what i mean.

The national anthem is the least of England as a nation

[sweeneywolf]

I thought you were doing OK in this spat Wokes...until the last post... did you seriously think Tony was actually suggesting that ???

...besides you are also wrong...

The Theme from Stingray contains lyrics as does the closing theme to Stingray.

Perhaps Tony was at fault for not clarifying which theme he meant.

I thought he was cleverererer than that.

[Woking88]

Nice 'wriggle' in your first para, Gav! ;)

Re Tony, he is more intelligent than that! How can you have what is basically an instrumental as a national anthem? I suppose we could all tap-dance to it!

Re paragraph 3 - it is rather more than one!:)

Have a good evening! :)

PS - bit of a shame that you take this stance as I have a lot of respect for you!

Tony's reply was laughing at what you posted and in his usual comedy way replied as he did, myself and others got what it meant. With paragraph three, the info is in a persons profile, i wouldn't leave my email address for all to see on an open forum.

PS i'm backing up and replying just like yourself, it's not really about how you say you respect me or any other poster. I know who to reply to on here and other forums, i think you remind me a lot of Micky D/Chim_Chimminee on the Bennies forum. Others will know what i mean.

The natio

[Woking88]

I thought you were doing OK in this spat Wokes...until the last post... did you seriously think Tony was actually suggesting that ???

...besides you are also wrong...

The Theme from Stingray contains lyrics as does the closing theme to Stingray.

Perhaps Tony was at fault for not clarifying which theme he meant.

I thought he was cleverererer than that.

Great word that, Sween! ;D

I absolutely know he is cleverererer than that! :D

[1877wolf]

I thought you were doing OK in this spat Wokes...until the last post... did you seriously think Tony was actually suggesting that ???

...besides you are also wrong...

The Theme from Stingray contains lyrics as does the closing theme to Stingray.

Perhaps Tony was at fault for not clarifying which theme he meant.

I thought he was cleverererer than that.

Pah, that's nothing.

Money mickd, the one with the cash AND all the inside info has stooped even lower than his usual 'lower than shark sh it' comments.

Mick has called me a Dingle retard...

[wolves71]

I thought you were doing OK in this spat Wokes...until the last post... did you seriously think Tony was actually suggesting that ???

...besides you are also wrong...

The Theme from Stingray contains lyrics as does the closing theme to Stingray.

Perhaps Tony was at fault for not clarifying which theme he meant.

I thought he was cleverererer than that.

Pah, that's nothing.

Money mickd, the one with the cash AND all the inside info has stooped even lower than his usual 'lower than shark sh it' comments.

Mick has called me a Dingle retard...[/quote]

I really hate that last word, a disgusting insult that is used more and more in every day life. No spat on this thread, just forum members offering a reply to what others have posted ;D

[1877wolf]

I thought you were doing OK in this spat Wokes...until the last post... did you seriously think Tony was actually suggesting that ???

...besides you are also wrong...

The Theme from Stingray contains lyrics as does the closing theme to Stingray.

Perhaps Tony was at fault for not clarifying which theme he meant.

I thought he was cleverererer than that.

Pah, that's nothing.

Money mickd, the one with the cash AND all the inside info has stooped even lower than his usual 'lower than shark sh it' comments.

Mick has called me a Dingle retard...[/quote]

I really hate that last word, a disgusting insult that is used more and more in every day life. No spat on this thread, just forum members offering a reply to what others have posted ;D[/quote]

Depends which part of the post you are replying to mate :O ;D :D

Yeah, it's a horribl

[TundraWolf]

There might be an answer to the threads' initial question in the attached Cole interview. The more international experience earned by players abroad the better their ability to adapt instinctively to different styles of play. As pointed out in the brief article, so may players do not wish to venture beyond their "comfort zone" by playing abroad that only one player from the England squad did not play for a Premier League club. As such, their learning curve and subsequent "skill-set" are compromised. - view external link (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/28312923)

[wolves71]

After reading that article, it makes me wonder if Cole would have made a similar move ten years ago? His career now is probably three to five years playing time left. Overseas teams also have to show an interest, and also, is an English player better than say what Bayern Munich have at the club? The premier league is where the money is, so is it money or gaining experience in other countries leagues that English players look at?

[1877wolf]

Exactly.
Cole is feeling his age and has landed on his feet with a great deal in Rome.

He would have laughed at this offer ten years ago.