o/t Do you really believe the universe was created without..

[the_idiotb_stardson]

a purpose?

I don't want this to degenerate into Christian V Atheist argument. I just want to know if you think there is a purpose for you and for the planet?

I had a pleasant walk in Derbyshire yesterday and saw nature in all its glory. It got me thinking about the timing of the seasons, the leaves appearing on trees at the same time each year, the orbits of the various planets, the stars, the tides etc.

To me it seems ludicrous that it is without design or purpose.

As for the big bang:

surely this the same as an explosion in a print factory producing the Oxford English dictionary.

There is too much design, symmetry and pattern for it to be chance.

So over to you: is it all meaningless and the result of chance?

If not, what do you believe in, what purpose is behind this amazing planet?

[millmoormagic]

Steak and chips...

[frogmiller]

It could be that there are many scientists running an experiment with us being the project.

This could be the reason that each part of the world the peoples are different in apperence. It could also give reason to why people follow different gods. The gods are the scientists.

The speed of evovution is astounding especially since the humans have been shown the way to harness and use it.

Ultimatly the world or experiment will end when we win promotion to the Premiership in the same season that we win the FA Cup for the first time!

Becareful what you wish for!

[John2]

I'm sure Derbyshire was lovely.

If you think everything was created with a purpose, you can't cherry pick the best bits.

We live in a world with parasitic worms whose purpose is to eat at the eyeball and slowly blind innocent children.

We all evolved, and our purpose is what we make of our lives through our interactions with other humans and the world around us.

[frogmiller]

The parasites don't know they are innocent children.

They are trying to survive. Nothing wrong with that is there?

[rolymiller]

Yes I do IBS...John2 makes some good points IBS and the world might be ok for you but some poor feckers caught in war and poverty/ incurable diseases through no fault of their own its a pretty sh it sort of place...if it has been designed the creator has a warped sense of humour...

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

Experience is the purpose, countless different experiences all at the same time experienced under the illusion of being individual is my theory.

I don't doubt evolution or the big bang, but they don't mean there's no creator, I don't know, no one in this reality does. This planet is so fine tuned even with the universe the size it is, it seems impossible for it all to happen this way by chance, but if M-theory is correct and there's countless universes, that by chance becomes a certainty.

[wrinkly]

The parasites don't know they are innocent children.

They are trying to survive. Nothing wrong with that is there?

If you are an atheist/evolutionist there is nothing wrong with it. There is no right/wrong/purpose in anything existing it is just the way things happen.

If you believe in a creator/purpose then you would have to question why such a creature was created.
The "supreme being" theorists will have spent hours botching together an answer to this.
Logical people will accept that it is one of millions of reasons against accepting the "creator" doctrine.

Which I'm sure was John's point
(or Stephen Fry's)

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Not sure you can equate logical people with atheism and illogical people with belief in a higher being.

I am sure believers are just as capable of logical thought and many have come to find faith because of their logic. If you say they are not logical people then presumably they are incapable of logic in any other area of their lives.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

I'm sure Derbyshire was lovely.

If you think everything was created with a purpose, you can't cherry pick the best bits.

We live in a world with parasitic worms whose purpose is to eat at the eyeball and slowly blind innocent children.

We all evolved, and our purpose is what we make of our lives through our interactions with other humans and the world around us.

Haven't you just cherry picked a worm to back up your own belief?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Yes I do IBS...John2 makes some good points IBS and the world might be ok for you but some poor feckers caught in war and poverty/ incurable diseases through no fault of their own its a pretty sh it sort of place...if it has been designed the creator has a warped sense of humour...

So it's God's fault that people kill and steal?

I don't think it is. I reckon the people who kill and steal who are responsible.

It raises a different question though about an interventionist or non- interventionist deity which isn't really what the thread is about.

I am more interested in if people believe their lives and the planet has a purpose or not.

[rolymiller]

Maybe it is..are people not meant to be made in the image of God..how can you blame people if that is true...at best gods creation must be a bit of a balls up eh?

[frogmiller]

The parasites don't know they are innocent children.

They are trying to survive. Nothing wrong with that is there?

If you are an atheist/evolutionist there is nothing wrong with it. There is no right/wrong/purpose in anything existing it is just the way things happen.

[/quote]

Well put Wrinkly. The first paragraph must be me. The need to survive is utmost on every creatures priority list seconded by the need to reproduce.

Are humans the only creature to be able to feel emotionally as to whether the victim is worthy of survival?

Interesting thread.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

How do you know its a balls up Roly?

Are you saying that you are on a par with the creator and have the same knowledge and vision?

We only see this side of the tapestry Roly,

Do you think life is a balls up?

Because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's a balls up.

What if all the tragedies are meant to serve a higher purpose?

[bobh1956]

Here's a purpose. ;D


http://i60.tinypic.com/28sn88n.jpg

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

It's a good point IBS for arguments sake maybe when you awake from this illusion and realise what you are, all the bad is not so??


The Matrix has you... :D :D

[rolymiller]

I suppose you could say we all have more knowledge and vision than a creator through science if there aint a creator IBS..Did you know by the way that their is an aardvark called Nigel living on the planet Blob who created the Universe..you know that is no less provable than your God...

[the_idiotb_stardson]

I think you have exaggerated the reach of science. How can we know if we have understood 99% of the universe or 0000.1 %?

Many scientists have come to faith because of science.. They have analysed cells through microscopes and other minutaie and found complex brilliant patterns which they believe can't be pure chance.


I think we are getting off topic here Roly.

Do you think you and the universe have a purpose?

If so what is it?

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

Science brings more questions than answers though, the more we know the less we know. Would like a theory on Consciousness myself.

[frogmiller]

I think you have exaggerated the reach of science. How can we know if we have understood 99% of the universe or 0000.1 %?

Many scientists have come to faith because of science.. They have analysed cells through microscopes and other minutaie and found complex brilliant patterns which they believe can't be pure chance.


I think we are getting off topic here Roly.

Do you think you and the universe have a purpose?

If so what is it?

Can I answer?

Reproduction :) What else is there? The need to survive drives everyone and everything through nature.
Scientists have an overwhelming desire to explain to us through the use of proof. At least proof in a way we can understand.

[John2]

Haven't you just cherry picked a worm to back up your own belief?

No, just to highlight that you've cherry picked to back up yours.


So it's God's fault that people kill and steal?

I don't think it is.

Of course it isn't, there is no god.

Why do people get purpose? Because we get joy from life and the people around us and the way we interact with it. That's enough for me. The idea of some magical higher power controlling everything in some sort of game to determine how we spend eternity I find a most unpleasant and ridiculous idea that would devalue to beauty of the world taken for what it is and what we can see.


IBS. re: Oxford Dictionary argument, heard the expression blind watchmaker? You should check out video in link: - view external link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok_tcAEbHHw)

[rolymiller]

I'm sort of with you on that one Amanda...very little is known about consciousness...is it seperate to your physical being as some argue or is it tied up with your DNA/genetica? If you could, in theory, stick all the atoms in your body together in exactly the same way would that make another conscious you? What governs consciousness? Is it do with electrical signals in your brain or somrthing else we dont yet know about.

[kempo]

I love the Oxford dictionary comment, never heard it but nothing is original so even you must have lifted it IBS.

I've only understood the beginning of the universe up to a point but never understood how something comes from nothing but that may be just me.

However it seems to me that mankind has invented God or Gods as a very unlikely explanation.

If indeed the universe was created by someone then clearly there must be a purpose albeit an obscure one but likely it wasn't...it was it seems by chance and as remarkable as that is, it doesn't need us to invent a God.

I have seen my share of suffering and agree with Stephen Fry...no God would allow this and if they did then they could not possibly be a nice God, they must be evil.

It seems that some clever people are very near to understanding the beginning and even though I don't I wouldn't go for God as the explanation.

There is no purpose in life as such as it just happened by wonderful chance...we should enjoy it and look after i

[Brin]

There is far too much evil in this world for God to have bestowed it upon mankind...or is there no God only the Devil himself?

Religion...the biggest head twister across all races of mankind...you believe what you like and should not force it upon another person's beliefs..but some do...

My belief is with all the war..starvation..disease..evilness in our current world that God surely cannot exist...and please no quotes from the Bible..

IBS said put your thoughts forward so here's mine...

I firmly belief that we are creations of a far superior race from outer space and they merely toy and look how we have evolved over the years...think I'm mad?

Show me a God or a Devil then you'll have my attention...

Now excuse me while I get back to Independence day...'what you don't believe in outer space and alien crafts visiting our planet?' :O

One day when all is exposed and if you're still alive to say it then it will be..'Bloody hell Brin was right all along' I only hope I'm still ali

[millmoormagic]

Not sure you can equate logical people with atheism and illogical people with belief in a higher being.

I am sure believers are just as capable of logical thought and many have come to find faith because of their logic. If you say they are not logical people then presumably they are incapable of logic in any other area of their lives.

The human brain is a strange thing, one thing that's always bothered me, why do some doctors smoke tobacco, when they, above most other folk, know exactly what that is doing to their bodies?

[villamiller]

Just think if we were not awake ...just a giant computer running our minds whilst the machines just used our bodies for electricity...wow ...that would make a good film or three ...;D ;D ;D ;D

[Brin]

Just think if we were not awake ...just a giant computer running our minds whilst the machines just used our bodies for electricity...wow ...that would make a good film or three ...;D ;D ;D ;D

WTF are you drinking? XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD

[villamiller]

Just think if we were not awake ...just a giant computer running our minds whilst the machines just used our bodies for electricity...wow ...that would make a good film or three ...;D ;D ;D ;D

WTF are you drinking? XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD[/quote]
Same as you brin farage ( other thread ) ,all things bright and beautiful my arse ,Harry Kent always kicked you out of assembly for farting XD XD XD

[Brin]

Just think if we were not awake ...just a giant computer running our minds whilst the machines just used our bodies for electricity...wow ...that would make a good film or three ...;D ;D ;D ;D

WTF are you drinking? XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD[/quote]
Same as you brin farage ( other thread ) ,all things bright and beautiful my arse ,Harry Kent always kicked you out of assembly for farting XD XD XD[/quote]

Only because I couldn't keep in tune with him on the Ivory's...XD

[villamiller]

Not seen the matrix then brin ;D ;D

[Brin]

Not seen the matrix then brin ;D ;D

Not fully...maybe I should watch it one day...

[walter10]

a purpose?

I don't want this to degenerate into Christian V Atheist argument. I just want to know if you think there is a purpose for you and for the planet?

I had a pleasant walk in Derbyshire yesterday and saw nature in all its glory. It got me thinking about the timing of the seasons, the leaves appearing on trees at the same time each year, the orbits of the various planets, the stars, the tides etc.

To me it seems ludicrous that it is without design or purpose.

As for the big bang:

surely this the same as an explosion in a print factory producing the Oxford English dictionary.

There is too much design, symmetry and pattern for it to be chance.

So over to you: is it all meaningless and the result of chance?

If not, what do you believe in, what purpose is behind this amazing planet?

What is the purpose then?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Faith in Christ.

[walter10]

Yes I do IBS...John2 makes some good points IBS and the world might be ok for you but some poor feckers caught in war and poverty/ incurable diseases through no fault of their own its a pretty sh it sort of place...if it has been designed the creator has a warped sense of humour...

So it's God's fault that people kill and steal?

I don't think it is. I reckon the people who kill and steal who are responsible.

It raises a different question though about an interventionist or non- interventionist deity which isn't really what the thread is about.

I am more interested in if people believe their lives and the planet has a purpose or not.[/quote]

It must be Gods fault if he created us all.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Quite interesting that people point to suffering and poverty in the world as proof that God doesn't exist.

It reminds me of the story about the monk who in his prayers cries out to God " there is so much sickness in the world...why don't you do something?"


The next day the Monk says there is so much poverty in the world how can you sit there and do nothing?"


The next day the Monk says "there is so much injustice in the world...and you do nothing"

Eventually the Lord sighs and says... " I did do something... I made you"



In other words get out there, roll your sleeves up and help out and get on with it...that's why I made you!

[villamiller]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??

[walter10]

Faith in Christ.

Not exclusively. What about Mohammad?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Also puzzled to understand the view that there is no meaning to it all. If there is no meaning , how was it possible to understand there is no meaning?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??[/quote]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.

[John2]

Quite interesting that people point to suffering and poverty in the world as proof that God doesn't exist.

I don't think poverty and suffering prove god doesn't exist, just a lack of ANY evidence.

Poverty and suffering simply show that in the unlikely event he does, he's evil.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Faith in Christ.

Not exclusively. What about Mohammad?[/quote]


For me? Yes exclusively.

Every one has a free will to make up their own mind. I chose Christ.

What about you Walt? What's it all about for you?

[villamiller]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??[/quote]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.[/quote]
So why not say "all the good in the world is gods work " and "all the bad is the devils work " ...I don't understand religion :? :? :? :?

[walter10]

Quite interesting that people point to suffering and poverty in the world as proof that God doesn't exist.

It reminds me of the story about the monk who in his prayers cries out to God " there is so much sickness in the world...why don't you do something?"


The next day the Monk says there is so much poverty in the world how can you sit there and do nothing?"


The next day the Monk says "there is so much injustice in the world...and you do nothing"

Eventually the Lord sighs and says... " I did do something... I made you"



In other words get out there, roll your sleeves up and help out and get on with it...that's why I made you!

Did the Lord actually speak to this guy or did it happen in his imagination.

[John2]

Every one has a free will to make up their own mind. I chose Christ.

Did you have Christ taught to you as 'the truth' by your family while you were a child?

If so, that's not really what I'd consider free will, more indoctrination that you happened to be born into by pure chance. Hardly a compelling reason to believe.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Quite interesting that people point to suffering and poverty in the world as proof that God doesn't exist.

I don't think poverty and suffering prove god doesn't exist, just a lack of ANY evidence.

Poverty and suffering simply show that in the unlikely event he does, he's evil.[/quote]


So it's God's fault?

So if your child goes off the rails despite all your teachings and everything you provided for them would you keep picking up the pieces, propping them up and not teach them that their actions have consequences?

[walter10]

Faith in Christ.

Not exclusively. What about Mohammad?[/quote]


For me? Yes exclusively.

Every one has a free will to make up their own mind. I chose Christ.

What about you Walt? What's it all about for you?[/quote]

So he didn't create the universe to believe in Christ. What if it just happens that he created the universe to be a non believer?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Every one has a free will to make up their own mind. I chose Christ.

Did you have Christ taught to you as 'the truth' by your family while you were a child?

If so, that's not really what I'd consider free will, more indoctrination that you happened to be born into by pure chance. Hardly a compelling reason to believe.[/quote]


I converted to Christ 9 years ago. I had no religious upbringing at all.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??[/quote]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.[/quote]
So why not say "all the good in the world is gods work " and "all the bad is the devils work " ...I don't understand religion :? :? :? :?[/quote]

I think you do. You are very close with that assessment Villa.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Faith in Christ.

Not exclusively. What about Mohammad?[/quote]


For me? Yes exclusively.

Every one has a free will to make up their own mind. I chose Christ.

What about you Walt? What's it all about for you?[/quote]

So he didn't create the universe to believe in Christ. What if it just happens that he created the universe to be a non believer?[/quote]

Gazza, I am confused is this your view?

[walter10]

Ps - that he actually admires those that have gone out to find an alternative opinion and will ultimately reward those and no the people that hang on to the original thoughts (on creation). It is the risk we all take.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Fair enough Walt. That's all I am after. Your view of the universe.

[villamiller]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??[/quote]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.[/quote]
So why not say "all the good in the world is gods work " and "all the bad is the devils work " ...I don't understand religion :? :? :? :?[/quote]

I think you do. You are very close with that assessment Villa.[/quote]
Serious ibs I don't understand religion
1 why is there so many ?
2 why am I close with that assessment

[walter10]

Fair enough Walt. That's all I am after. Your view of the universe.

I admire you for your beliefs.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??[/quote]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.[/quote]
So why not say "all the good in the world is gods work " and "all the bad is the devils work " ...I don't understand religion :? :? :? :?[/quote]

I think you do. You are very close with that assessment Villa.[/quote]
Serious ibs I don't understand religion
1 why is there so many ?
2 why am I close with that assessment[/quote]

1. I don't know why there is so many Villa. Ask one of the atheists they know everything about how the universe works.

2 As for your second question James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from abov

[the_idiotb_stardson]

I can't claim originality for this idea ( I can't remember who said it anyway?)
but presumably for a person to understand that there was no God, they would have to have infinite knowledge of the universe.

Which gives us the unusual situation of someone with infinite knowledge of the universe claiming that there is nothing in existence with infinite knowledge of the universe.


* Kempo, the explosion in the print factory quote is not original of course. Heard it from a preacher and he quoted it from somewhere else so I don't know its origins.

You won't have any difficulty finding John 2's sources. They are all Richard Dawkins.

[villamiller]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??[/quote]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.[/quote]
So why not say "all the good in the world is gods work " and "all the bad is the devils work " ...I don't understand religion :? :? :? :?[/quote]

I think you do. You are very close with that assessment Villa.[/quote]
Serious ibs I don't understand religion
1 why is there so many ?
2 why am I close with that assessment[/quote]

1. I don't know why there is so many Villa. Ask one of the atheists they know everything about how the universe works.

2 As for your second que

[John2]

So it's God's fault?

So if your child goes off the rails despite all your teachings and everything you provided for them would you keep picking up the pieces, propping them up and not teach them that their actions have consequences?

I think in the main the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. If my child turned out bad I'd certainly examine my failings and feel a sense of responsibility.

Ultimately its a nonsense argument because there is no god.

You say you had a nonreligious upbringing... did you ever go to church as a kid? Did you ever sing christian hymns at school? Did you ever have any Christian teachers or family members? Did you celebrate Christmas? did you celebrate Easter?

Once you've answered that one, do the same for Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, etc... and we'll see which you were exposed to the most and which one you happened to pick.

[gm_gm]

You should respect other peoples beliefs ...unless of course they are political

[millmoormagic]

Faith in Christ.
Serious question ibs ...do you believe in the devil ??[/quote]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.[/quote]
So why not say "all the good in the world is gods work " and "all the bad is the devils work " ...I don't understand religion :? :? :? :?[/quote]

I think you do. You are very close with that assessment Villa.[/quote]
Serious ibs I don't understand religion
1 why is there so many ?
2 why am I close with that assessment[/quote]

1. I don't know why there is so many Villa. Ask one of the atheists they know everything about how the universe works.

2 As for your second ques

[Rileyev2]

Let people be, let them believe in what they want. If their not hurting anyone I fail to see what the problem is.

It all comes down to faith, you believe you don't believe.

The fact is you have to die to find out the truth.

Judgement day awaits us all.

Unless of course its all nonsense, in which case judgement day doesn't exist either.

Not that this proves anything, but I was praying my heart out Dagnall would miss that penalty at Wembley.

I showhd my appreciation by screaming f@cking get in there you f@cking beauty at the top of my voice.

[BigLadonOS]

If God created the world and man in his own image how come it took him(or her or it!) millions of years to create us?

The planet was here for millions of years before man was thought of!

I don't believe in God/Devil as sutch but I do believe in God/Devil as an idea.

If for example you are generous and kind and think of others, if you feel pain for the injustices of this world and pleasure for all the things that make life worth living then that reflects your personality and are more likely to believe in a God, but if your a person that couldn't care less about anything other than yourself then your less likely to believe in God.

This is where God/Devil the idea comes from.

Do I believe we have a purpose? No I do not believe we have a higher purpose in life other than to make it the best we can for ourselves.

Let me try to put into words what I mean.

Is love real? Well, NO love is not real, Love as we call it has nothing to do with anyone but our selfish selves. When YOU meet a

[the_idiotb_stardson]

So it's God's fault?

So if your child goes off the rails despite all your teachings and everything you provided for them would you keep picking up the pieces, propping them up and not teach them that their actions have consequences?

I think in the main the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. If my child turned out bad I'd certainly examine my failings and feel a sense of responsibility.

Ultimately its a nonsense argument because there is no god.

You say you had a nonreligious upbringing... did you ever go to church as a kid? Did you ever sing christian hymns at school? Did you ever have any Christian teachers or family members? Did you celebrate Christmas? did you celebrate Easter?

Once you've answered that one, do the same for Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, etc... and we'll see which you were exposed to the most and which one you happened to pick.[/quote]

Nonsense,

[John2]

Nonsense, if it was about conditioning why are you an atheist and I am not. Presumably you were exposed to hymns, Christmas and Easter?

Why do Christins convert to Islam and vice versa? Why do atheists convert to faith and vice versa?


The first religion I became interested in was Buddhism so were does that fit the theory?

Aha, hit a nerve, looks like my Christianity hypothesis was correct.

There are many reasons some people are more susceptible to religion or particular religions, depends entirely on the ideas they are exposed to, level of indoctrination, how gullible they are, how 'alternative' they are, how disenfranchised or vulnerable, escapism from lifestyle choices, all sort of reasons.

Of course there are individual exceptions, but as a general rule if you grow up in a traditionally Christian country you're most likely to end up Christian, if you grow up in a predominantly Muslim country, that will most like

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Nonsense, if it was about conditioning why are you an atheist and I am not. Presumably you were exposed to hymns, Christmas and Easter?

Why do Christins convert to Islam and vice versa? Why do atheists convert to faith and vice versa?


The first religion I became interested in was Buddhism so were does that fit the theory?

Aha, hit a nerve, looks like my Christianity hypothesis was correct.

There are many reasons some people are more susceptible to religion or particular religions, depends entirely on the ideas they are exposed to, level of indoctrination, how gullible they are, how 'alternative' they are, how disenfranchised or vulnerable, escapism from lifestyle choices, all sort of reasons.

Of course there are individual exceptions, but as a general rule if you grow up in a traditionally Christian country you're most likely to end up Christian, if you grow up in a predom

[John2]

Glad to see you describe England as traditionally a Christian Country...it was according to you secular one a few months ago.

Of course it did, the church used to be a far more powerful political force that ruled by the sword, to a far less educated people.

Thankfully there followed a period of enlightenment, and today, most are non-religious and secularism is growing incredibly quickly. Take a look at the demographics of churches!



Also baffled as to why England became a Christian country when Christ was crucified thousands of miles away?

Come on, basic history, you should Google the 'Roman empire', you might find it interesting. ;D

[rolymiller]

I think your problem IBS is that you're views are not balanced because you automatically dismiss any scientific explanation of how the Universe was created because your religious views are so embedded. I consider you to be one of the more intelligent posters on here but for me intelligent people will consider all sides of an argument and consider them seriously before making decisions. I suspect that you have not read books on quantum physics and the like. There are plenty out there many will give you a basic gist of how the universe came to be without the need of some creator. i can give you a list of books/authors if you want. Open your mind you are intelligent enough to do that. Yes question what you read but that also applies to the stuff you read in the bible.

[Galant]

Idiotb - the beauty you describe wasn't created by god OR by chance. The beauty and efficiency of nature was created by natural selection - mutations which proved better than the original - this happens over and over again as nature heads towards perfection - this isn't finished and human beings for example are not the finished article - we never will be - we will continue to mutate and improve to fit our surroundings.
As for god - science has shown it/ he (there's the give away - man made you see that's why it's it or he - male domination at the time it/he was invented by mankind) does not exist. Indoctrination preserves god in the unthinking classes. If you are born in a catholic, protestant, morman or muslim house - chances are you will die believing in /attached to that religion - pure indoctrination of the innocent - it's evil when you think about it.
A for god - no evidence whatsoever.
All those people looking and yet he just talks to a few, how can I put this politely, slightly

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Glad to see you describe England as traditionally a Christian Country...it was according to you secular one a few months ago.

Of course it did, the church used to be a far more powerful political force that ruled by the sword, to a far less educated people.

Thankfully there followed a period of enlightenment, and today, most are non-religious and secularism is growing incredibly quickly. Take a look at the demographics of churches!



Also baffled as to why England became a Christian country when Christ was crucified thousands of miles away?

Come on, basic history, you should Google the 'Roman empire', you might find it interesting. ;D[/quote]

And why did Christianity take hold in Britain or Rome for that matter?

According to your 'logic' it must have been an unusual occurrence for religions to flourish in count

[the_idiotb_stardson]

I think your problem IBS is that you're views are not balanced because you automatically dismiss any scientific explanation of how the Universe was created because your religious views are so embedded. I consider you to be one of the more intelligent posters on here but for me intelligent people will consider all sides of an argument and consider them seriously before making decisions. I suspect that you have not read books on quantum physics and the like. There are plenty out there many will give you a basic gist of how the universe came to be without the need of some creator. i can give you a list of books/authors if you want. Open your mind you are intelligent enough to do that. Yes question what you read but that also applies to the stuff you read in the bible.

On the contrary Roly. I believe science shows there is a master creator at work.

The fact that cells mutate to survive is no accident.

Where did that desire come fro

[the_idiotb_stardson]

[quote="Galant"]Idiotb - the beauty you describe wasn't created by god OR by chance. The beauty and efficiency of nature was created by natural selection - mutations which proved better than the original - this happens over and over again as nature heads towards perfection - this isn't finished and human beings for example are not the finished article - we never will be - we will continue to mutate and improve to fit our surroundings.
As for god - science has shown it/ he (there's the give away - man made you see that's why it's it or he - male domination at the time it/he was invented by mankind) does not exist. Indoctrination preserves god in the unthinking classes. If you are born in a catholic, protestant, morman or muslim house - chances are you will die believing in /attached to that religion - pure indoctrination of the innocent - it's evil when you think about it.
A for god - no evidence whatsoever.
All those people looking and yet he just talks to a

[kempo]

Religious belief is a fascinating subject and we would expect that from an IBS thread.

It's very complex and clearly the reason someone believes is multifactorial.

Not mentioned here so far is neurophysiology ie the part our subconscious brain plays in particular the temporal lobe.

We do know that religious experiences can be produced by stimulating specific areas of the temporal lobe.
We also know that some people with temporal lobe epilepsy can experience intense religious feelings during a 'fit'

This does not prove anything but is of interest.

Also people with psychotic brain illnesses may exhibit 'religious symptoms,

So...it's possible that a brain malfunction could be a factor or even a normal brain function...although why would evolution preserve it as no obvious advantage.

It's difficult for me to understand why intelligent people like IBS would consider the facts and evidence and conclude..yes God exists...so that would suggest to me that a brain function/ malfunction i

[leedsmiller]

If the dinosaurs had religion God would have been portrayed as a pterodactyl. God hasn't created Man in His image, Man has created God in his image.

I actually believe there was a prophet called Jesus and that he was crucified. But from thereon the story gets ridiculous, one or two followers start a rumour that he rose from the dead and centuries later millions still believe it. Why? In the main because that's what they were told at a very early age, because people need a God or an all-powerful being to give justification for their lives, to call upon in times of sorrow, to explain the inexplicable... I've no problem with that, only with those who try to impose their beliefs on others.

The ancients who worshipped the Sun had it right, praying to the one thing that gives and sustains life on our planet.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Galant the idea that belief in a higher power is down to being thick is ridiculous.

Are you suggesting Galant that you are more intelligent than every Christian in the world? ( And you accuse me of thinking I am special!!!)

Christians did and still do make massive contributions to science...these are people Galant, who are a lot more intelligent than me and thee.

Also to prove that God doesn't exist you would have to have infinite knowledge of the Universe. You would be then in the absurd position of saying I have infinite knowledge of the Universe and I can say that nothing with infinite knowledge of the Universe exists !

[BentleyMiller86]

I think your problem IBS is that you're views are not balanced because you automatically dismiss any scientific explanation of how the Universe was created because your religious views are so embedded. I consider you to be one of the more intelligent posters on here but for me intelligent people will consider all sides of an argument and consider them seriously before making decisions. I suspect that you have not read books on quantum physics and the like. There are plenty out there many will give you a basic gist of how the universe came to be without the need of some creator. i can give you a list of books/authors if you want. Open your mind you are intelligent enough to do that. Yes question what you read but that also applies to the stuff you read in the bible.

On the contrary Roly. I believe science shows there is a master creator at work.

The fact that cells mutate t

[the_idiotb_stardson]

I think your problem IBS is that you're views are not balanced because you automatically dismiss any scientific explanation of how the Universe was created because your religious views are so embedded. I consider you to be one of the more intelligent posters on here but for me intelligent people will consider all sides of an argument and consider them seriously before making decisions. I suspect that you have not read books on quantum physics and the like. There are plenty out there many will give you a basic gist of how the universe came to be without the need of some creator. i can give you a list of books/authors if you want. Open your mind you are intelligent enough to do that. Yes question what you read but that also applies to the stuff you read in the bible.

On the contrary Roly. I believe science shows there is a

[Val_Mascal]

I think your problem IBS is that you're views are not balanced because you automatically dismiss any scientific explanation of how the Universe was created because your religious views are so embedded. I consider you to be one of the more intelligent posters on here but for me intelligent people will consider all sides of an argument and consider them seriously before making decisions. I suspect that you have not read books on quantum physics and the like. There are plenty out there many will give you a basic gist of how the universe came to be without the need of some creator. i can give you a list of books/authors if you want. Open your mind you are intelligent enough to do that. Yes question what you read but that also applies to the stuff you read in the bible.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Val, I question my faith all the time.

Not sure about the other.

[Val_Mascal]

Val, I question my faith all the time.

Not sure about the other.

Ok, so you're "not sure"

Would you agree then that faith is an unreliable path to knowledge and understanding?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

For understanding what?

I believe I understand myself better because of my faith.

[rolymiller]

Let me put myself in your shoes for a while IBS. I believe in a creator like you but then I ask myself where did that creator come from? How was HE created? Do you not ask yourself that question?

In the end the question still remains how was the Universe created with a creator in it or not. If there is an explanation for this which i believe physicists are reasonably close to proving then there really is no need for a creator. The answer is there...

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Roly of course I have asked myself that question. The mystery of all these things to me shows there is something bigger than we can comprehend. I don't claim to know. I have faith in an explanation.

I don't believe science is nearer to explaining things. The big bang was a total anti climax as an explanation. It didn't answer the crucial question: where did it all this stuff come from that made the bang?

My original question was not who or what or why but if people believed they and the universe were created for a purpose.

I chose my words carefully because I can accept that the big debate will always remain so.

[crashbang]

Heres a downer. all the stars and Galaxies could be micro molecules in a lump of dog ****e at the bottom of someones garden :D

[rolymiller]

Reading a book now by a chap called Krauss IBS "A universe from nothing"...You can get it from Amazon for a few bob..Read it and see what you think. I am no physicist but there it is put over in a way that the lay person can get a simple understanding of how the Universe could be created from nothing. If you think it has no foundation to it fair enough but at least you will have seen the other side of the argument. If you want to continue with your beliefs that is your right and good luck with it. Whatever our beliefs You having a God and me not having a god does not in any way make either of us good or evil people..The simple fact is is that human beings, as are a lot of animals, are social animals. From prehistoric times to today have always had to work together to survive and perpetuate the species. Human beings havent needed a God to tell them how to do it, if early human beings hadnt collaborated to some degree there wouldnt be a human race now.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

[quote="rolymiller"... You having a God and me not having a god does not in any way make either of us good or evil people...[/quote]


Oh I know I am not good Roly, believe me... I am not good. To be honest my faith has showed me that I am not good and then helped me accept that I am not good.

If you ever hear anyone call Christians 'goody goodies" I can guarantee they have no understanding about Christianity. The first time I ever heard people admit that they were not good was in a church. If we were good people then Christ died for nothing.

Thanks for the book recommendation Roly.

[Val_Mascal]

For understanding what?

I believe I understand myself better because of my faith.

For understanding the universe. That's what your initial question was about.

Faith is belief without evidence. Is this the best way to try to make sense of the universe?

[rolymiller]

Don't beat yourself up about it IBS none of us are perfect nor evil for that matter. We are all human beings with frailties whether we believe in God or not. It is in our interest to get on with others though, it makes our life easier and more pleasant when we do.

[fivetide]

Back on topic fellas.

Do you think there is a purpose behind you and the universe?

No.

Simple reason, if you are a true believer then you will know that God gave people free will.

That being the case, as a real believer there cannot be any fate or design except one we create through our own actions.

Science on the other hand observes entropy. The way things fall apart, decay and move around descending into chaos.

So if you are a true believer the answer has to be no and if you aren't, the answer also has to be no.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

For understanding what?

I believe I understand myself better because of my faith.

For understanding the universe. That's what your initial question was about.

Faith is belief without evidence. Is this the best way to try to make sense of the universe?[/quote]

I didn't say 'understand" I said "believe" in my original question.

Surely it has to come down to faith whichever way you see it.

[Galant]

Your idea that things try to perfect themselves is redundant unless you explain why? Why do things have that capability?

Why does this planet try to survive? Why don't we have an instinct which says 'sod it, I can't be arsed" ?

Regarding indoctrination, why did I become a Christian 9 years ago? Why at this point when belief in neo-liberalism is the dominant view of the state did I not subscribe to this view.

1. Things don't have the capability to perfect themselves - things exist and they reproduce - mutations occur that result in a new thing - slightly changed that can perform better in a certain environment and hence gets mated with more often until it dominates and the old thing dies out because it can't compete.

2. The planet doesn't try to survive - it exists as a spun off lump of stuff from the sun. Why do all animals persist with surviving - they don't - 98% of all living things on earth that ever existed are now extinct - the ones that did try and not give up are mostly

[Val_Mascal]

For understanding what?

I believe I understand myself better because of my faith.

For understanding the universe. That's what your initial question was about.

Faith is belief without evidence. Is this the best way to try to make sense of the universe?[/quote]

I didn't say 'understand" I said "believe" in my original question.

Surely it has to come down to faith whichever way you see it.[/quote]

"Belief" and "understanding" are the same in the context of this thread.

It doesn't come down to faith at all. Faith is belief without evidence. That said, is faith the best basis for any belief?...including a belief of how the universe was formed?

[Galant]

Reading a book now by a chap called Krauss IBS "A universe from nothing"...You can get it from Amazon for a few bob..Read it and see what you think. I am no physicist but there it is put over in a way that the lay person can get a simple understanding of how the Universe could be created from nothing. If you think it has no foundation to it fair enough but at least you will have seen the other side of the argument. If you want to continue with your beliefs that is your right and good luck with it. Whatever our beliefs You having a God and me not having a god does not in any way make either of us good or evil people..The simple fact is is that human beings, as are a lot of animals, are social animals. From prehistoric times to today have always had to work together to survive and perpetuate the species. Human beings havent needed a God to tell them how to do it, if early human beings hadnt collaborated to some degree there wouldnt be a human race now.

Excellent post Rolymiller - perfe

[frogmiller]

I commented last night how interesting this thread is. I have read most of the posts within and I have to ask a question.

Is religion easier to understand than science?

More people will be divided by science in the same room and will question the conclusions whereas in church people tend to listen with respect and find where the conclusion/stories fits their lives?

[crashbang]

I'll go down the science route.
Bit more peaceful than religion.

[Galant]

Type google:
krauss universe from nothing youtube

45 minute explanation of why the universe came from nothing and still weighs nothing - it is scientific but in fairly easy to understand terms - but still I estimate that about 80% of the population will either not understand it or give up because it makes your head hurt.
Also on you tube a debate between Krauss and Christians that I am going to watch tomorrow.
Crash - yes religion is easy to understand - God made everything - no need to think any more - but that's what morons do - thank goodness the scientists persevere - religion belongs to history - it is discredited, unnecessary and gets in the way of progress - time to bin it.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Make sure you read this then galant as background. - view external link (http://www.bethinking.org/is-there-a-creator/a-universe-from-someone-against-lawrence-krauss)

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Sorry Roly just read a bit of Krauss and its the same old argument. Krauss tries to tells us that something is actually nothing.

[rolymiller]

No I tnink you have it the wrong way round as I understand it nothing is made up of something in this case particles and anti particles in the fase vacuum which cancel each other out to make nothing.Basically the energy of the Universe adds up to nothing.

You are a bloody quick reader IBS think theres 200 pages in that book. Persist!

(You wont like the end bit though your hero writes an afterword)

[walter10]

Sorry Roly just read a bit of Krauss and its the same old argument. Krauss tries to tells us that something is actually nothing.

We're at an impasse. On the one hand the argument is something is nothing and the other nothing is something.

[Val_Mascal]

Still not answered my question IBS; is faith (i.e. belief without evidence) a reliable way to make sense of the world/universe/whatever?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Yes.

Unless you can show me otherwise?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Sorry Roly just read a bit of Krauss and its the same old argument. Krauss tries to tells us that something is actually nothing.

We're at an impasse. On the one hand the argument is something is nothing and the other nothing is something.[/quote]

Of course we are at an impasse Walter. We always have been and always will be.

That's why I asked if people "believed" if there was a purpose or not. it really is the best we can do.

I don't expect tomorrow's new headline to be:

"Millers mad punters solve the meaning the meaning of existence"

[rolymiller]

Had a quick read of your link..so the Universe is not created by God but comes from within him. Whatever criticism there is on this link of Krausses view point it still does not answer the question where God comes from..at no point does Krauss says he has hard evidence that he is right..the theological view just arrogantly says they are right (without evidence) because krusses view point is supposedly weak. It is not enough to argue your view is wrong so my view is right. It still needs to be justified. Whether Krauss is right or wrong at least he has set out to prove what he is trying to say.

[villamiller]

If Rotherham win tomorrow night ...there is a God ;D ;D ;D

[S8_Miller]

In answer to your original question IBS, frankly I have no idea but I put my trust in modern science to eventually answer the question rather than a book that was written by people who thought the earth was balanced on the back of a giant elephant.

[Val_Mascal]

Reliable? Really?
The atherius society have faith that Jesus, Buddha and Krishna are from Venus and that there are, right now, civilised and highly intelligent beings living on Venus. They don't have any evidence for this, just faith. Furthermore, all scientific evidence indicates that this faith is complete and utter nonsense. But, by your standards, the atherius society should be given due respect.

Please explain to me how faith is a more reliable path to knowledge than science, questioning and reason.

[John2]

IBS... are there any religious beliefs that you've heard of that you think are particularly bizarre or ridiculous?

Please try and actually answer, I know you like to divert some potentially difficult questions.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Of course there are it all comes down to faith...including your faith in science.

[EmpireStateOfMind]

Its a loaded question and presupposes that the universe was created.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Val, can you define knowledge for me?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

I see we have quite a few on here with an infinite understanding of the universe.

[Adventus2012]

Answer - Yes,

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics.

This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence.

Source Marilyn Adamson.

Also I agree that the complexity of our planet points to a deliberate designer who not only created our universe, but sus

[EmpireStateOfMind]

I suppose the dinosaurs also took that certainty of life for granted for their tenure of this floating space rock.

Gods are a ridiculous man made concept, presumably the god that you espouse is described in the bible - the same one who condoned murder, slavery and rape in the Old Testament.

[fivetide]

I see we have quite a few on here with an infinite understanding of the universe.

But yet when someone makes a serious attempt to respond to your original question it is ignored... That says someone is more interested in trolling than serious debate no? ;)

[John2]

"Of course there are"

OK, good. So what is it to you that makes the things some people believe on faith ridiculous, but the thing you believe which seems ridiculous to many, true?

I mean you believe a magical creator of the universe thought the most efficient method to tell all of humanity was through a bronze age desert dweller who became a zombie... that does sound ridiculous to a lot of people.

[Val_Mascal]

Thats a good question IBS. I would say that knowledge is a belief that has been evidenced to be true. Knowledge mirrors the truth. The truth requires evidence.

We can pick the bones out of what constitutes evidence, but fantastic and unequivocal claims of creationism require fantastic and unequivocal evidence. The fact is, there isn't any evidence.

Anybody should be free to believe whatever they want, even the atherius society. But fantastical claims without a shred of evidence are open to ridicule.

[Val_Mascal]

[quote="Adventus2012"]Answer - Yes,

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics.

This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence.

Source Marilyn Adamson.

Also I agree that the complexity of our planet points to a deliberate d

[BigLadonOS]

[quote="Adventus2012"]Answer - Yes,

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics.

This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence.

Source Marilyn Adamson.

Also I agree that the complexity of our planet points to a deliberate d

[gazisamiller]

You often hear the question raised "If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?"

I can't help but think its a petri dish, in the same way that mould grows outwards.

The big question should really be, what happens when we reach the sides? ;D :D

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Just wondering if anyone has considered this idea:

Is it possible that one day science could prove the existence of a creator?

[rolymiller]

I think many scientists do believe there might be a creator certainly as one of the options with the evidence they have found so far ie with the apparent fine tuning of the universe but I think they see the creator as being different to the one you see. I think they see the creator as someone who is from an advanced civilisation who has the ability to ctreate a universe such as the one in which we live BUT I dont think they see this creator as being the benevolent/ watching over creator as the one you see more a "lets make a universe and see what happens sort of approach. they might be keeping tabs on us to see what happens but there is no evidence that they are trying to influence what happens or care what happens. If there was a sudden change in some property of physics in the universe which we noticed maybe that could be a sign of a creator tampering with the Universe. its a good question IBS by the way and i have to say you have coped very well with being a bit outnu mbered on here

[John2]

Just wondering if anyone has considered this idea:

Is it possible that one day science could prove the existence of a creator?

Certainly. It just requires a creator to leave some of proof of their existence.

Why doesn't a creator reveal their existence, instead of leaving obscure clues from thousands of years ago in some sort of weird game.

[BigLadonOS]

Here is one for you to think about.

This is the only time in known history that WE (not a creator) have the power to destroy our planet and all intelligent life that lives on it.

SCARY...

[Galant]

Excellent posts Roly.
The only argument that those who believe in a super being can put forward to even continue the debate is that the non believers can't prove the non existence of god.
This argument is the wrong way round - the onus is on the believers to prove their is one.
If I said I believe that a small invisible elf like creature living under my bed had created my bedroom - I think it would be quite reasonable for non believers to ask me to prove the elf's existence - if I can't I wouldn't be surprised if they thought I was a little unhinged if my response was - well you prove the elf doesn't exist, aha see outwitted you. If I then persisted in my belief despite all the evidence pointing to some builders doing it then I think I would lose all respect.
There is no god - fact.

[Val_Mascal]

Just wondering if anyone has considered this idea:

Is it possible that one day science could prove the existence of a creator?

That would be good.

Already, I have an image of a muscular, perspiring God in a grubby vest working hard to maintain the complex machinery of the universe.

At a stroke, science would be able to abandon the troublesome quantum string theory...to be immediately replaced by the string vest theory.

STOP!
Such idle frivolity and speculation on such a weighty subject is highly dangerous; this is probably how half the religions of the world originated!

[BigLadonOS]

Just wondering if anyone has considered this idea:

Is it possible that one day science could prove the existence of a creator?

That would be good.

Already, I have an image of a muscular, perspiring God in a grubby vest working hard to maintain the complex machinery of the universe.

At a stroke, science would be able to abandon the troublesome quantum string theory...to be immediately replaced by the string vest theory.

STOP!
Such idle frivolity and speculation on such a weighty subject is highly dangerous; this is probably how half the religions of the world originated![/quote]


Only half?

[Adventus2012]

Great great debate lads... now go and fill your faces with good old christian pancakes, before you begin lent tomorrow! ;D

PS: don't forget to shrive now will you?

up the Millers.

[Val_Mascal]

Great great debate lads... now go and fill your faces with good old christian pancakes, before you begin lent tomorrow! ;D

PS: don't forget to shrive now will you?

up the Millers.

Nah, pagan pancakes every time for me. Original is always best ;)

Derbyshire winner tonight (Matt, that is, not the county)

UTM

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

Just wondering if anyone has considered this idea:

Is it possible that one day science could prove the existence of a creator?


Yes. Many people get the wrong idea and think science has already proven there isn't one, this is not the case. Science has only disproven religious Gods and not whether there's a creator or not, no one knows is the truth, but they will continue to claim to. :/

Onto faith, scientists also have faith in their unproven theories. We all have faith and beliefs in something and on some of them things we will be wrong even though to us we know we are right. We create our own realities, just thought Id give you something to think about. :D :D

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

Just think if we were not awake ...just a giant computer running our minds whilst the machines just used our bodies for electricity...wow ...that would make a good film or three ...;D ;D ;D ;D


The idea for the film came from the theories. Our senses are just electrical signals, we have no idea whether this reality is an illusion or not. The only thing we can be absolute certain of is our own consciousness.

...Knock, Knock

Neo...

:D :D

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Can't help but think of the Ghandi quote after reading some of these posts.:

"It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists"

[howdydoo]

Excellent posts Roly.
The only argument that those who believe in a super being can put forward to even continue the debate is that the non believers can't prove the non existence of god.
This argument is the wrong way round - the onus is on the believers to prove their is one.
If I said I believe that a small invisible elf like creature living under my bed had created my bedroom - I think it would be quite reasonable for non believers to ask me to prove the elf's existence - if I can't I wouldn't be surprised if they thought I was a little unhinged if my response was - well you prove the elf doesn't exist, aha see outwitted you. If I then persisted in my belief despite all the evidence pointing to some builders doing it then I think I would lose all respect.
There is no god - fact.

Utter bullsh!t.

He does exist and here is the proof. So there :P :P :P :P :P :P ...

[Ellis_D]

Yes I do IBS...John2 makes some good points IBS and the world might be ok for you but some poor feckers caught in war and poverty/ incurable diseases through no fault of their own its a pretty sh it sort of place...if it has been designed the creator has a warped sense of humour...

So it's God's fault that people kill and steal?

I don't think it is. I reckon the people who kill and steal who are responsible.

It raises a different question though about an interventionist or non- interventionist deity which isn't really what the thread is about.

I am more interested in if people believe their lives and the planet has a purpose or not.[/quote]

"God" must really be kicking himself then. I mean, there was nothing, so he thought, fack it, I'll create a few things. Of course, no religious book has any mention of dinosaurs, but we'll forget that for a minute.

He created day a

[the_idiotb_stardson]

That's a curious question Ellis considering how you have just answered John 2 on another thread for taking stories and parables out of context.

You clearly did a bit of research on the aforementioned scriptures, which is a lot better than most on this thread, so why not do some research into Noah?

Oh and by the way not all Christians are creationist or fundamentalist.

[John2]

Of course. You can't have one without the other.

LOL. In the same thread you said you can't pick and choose which bits of the bible you believe (many Christians think the devil is a metaphor, like Noah's ark), you've implied you don't believe in Noah's ark.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too!!

[rolymiller]

Good point about dinosaurs Ellis. Why would God create something that humans werent there to witness if the things are put on earth for mankind to enjoy. Seems a waste of time and we are talking millions of years before they became extinct here.And please dont say dinosaurs didnt exist we are digging em up and dating them all the time...

John2 the problem with the bible is that it is all metaphor and no facts. why should anybody believe anything that is in it?

Sorry IBS but the more I think about it the more unbelievable it is. Surely a being that is so powerful and intelligent to create a universe would have done a better job at spreading his message. Put yourself in Gods shoes how and when would you have spread your message to the world?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Oh dear John quoting out of context again. Ellis has already exposed that on another thread...very Dawkinesque.


It is strange to see you still getting uptight about something you claim doesn't exist.

[John2]

Oh dear John quoting out of context again. Ellis has already exposed that on another thread...very Dawkinesque.


It is strange to see you still getting uptight about something you claim doesn't exist.

lol, not out of context at all. You said 'of course' you believe in the devil, as though if its in the Bible 'of course' you believe it. Entirely relevant and in context.

It shouldn't be that strange, we've discussed that exact point before. I live in a world where people deny homo***uals and women basic human rights because of their belief in something which doesn't exist. Where people will blow themselves and kill innocents up in the of something that doesn't exist.

Who wouldn't get uptight about living in such a world when people believe incredibly stupid and ridiculous things without evidence.

I'll throw in a question then IBS, move things along. If Noah's ark is a metaphor but the devil is real... since the bi

[Ellis_D]

Galant the idea that belief in a higher power is down to being thick is ridiculous.

Are you suggesting Galant that you are more intelligent than every Christian in the world? ( And you accuse me of thinking I am special!!!)

Christians did and still do make massive contributions to science...these are people Galant, who are a lot more intelligent than me and thee.

Also to prove that God doesn't exist you would have to have infinite knowledge of the Universe. You would be then in the absurd position of saying I have infinite knowledge of the Universe and I can say that nothing with infinite knowledge of the Universe exists !

And here's the view of a man, who is far more intelligent than you, I, Galant, or anyone else on this messageboard. - view external link (www.cnet.com/uk/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/)

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Is Christianity really that much of a problem in your life John?

Most Christians I know are just average, inoffensive human beings struggling with their own,, lust, greed, pride, dishonesty, and bouts of self righteousness, which their faith helps them overcome.

The rest of the time they are battling with their own self centred-ness and trying to avoid running jumble sales, working food banks and opening soup ********..and then reluctantly in most cases taking on these tasks in varying degrees.


Is Christianity really the evil empire that you make it out to be?


I am basically an old fashioned Labour Voter and find myself exasperated at the energy wasted on attacking the Church who it seems at the moment are doing a much better job than the Labour Party in sticking it to the government.

Every time I see another atheist have a pop, I wonder why they aren't protesting about the real issues of the day? Banker Greed, Illegal Wars, etc

The more this movement spouts off, the more I

[crashbang]

TFFT.

[John2]

Christianity really is that big of a problem to me, yes.

In the UK I'm surrounded completely by secularists, its easy, but I spent a lot of time living in the US, working for the YMCA, a lot of my really good friends out there are Christian.

I've seen close friends utterly torn by the expectation, weight and pressure of their religion, feeling guilt over things which are doing no harm but they've been taught at church are wrong. I've seen the other side, the friends who are constantly posting abortion propaganda on facebook and making friends who are already in a bad place feel even worse about themselves.

For all the good you see in religion, I think you ignore the bad, the conflict and torment it creates for many.

If it was real, that's fine, but its literally all nonsense, and only through a faithless eye can you comprehend how ridiculous it all sounds (coming from someone who used to strongly believe).

So yes, my war against religion will be unrelenting.

On the political side

[rolymiller]

IBS you give the impression that you can only truly care about the world and even yourself through religion. I dont understand why you think this.You dont need religion to be a caring person or be political in anyway. Why you beat yourself up in the of Christianity i dont know. Like I said in an earlier thread, since the dawn of mankind it has always been better for human beings to try to get on and work together in order for them to survive-hunters and gatherers and all that. Other animals do it as well.Being kind and considerate and looking after others is natural to most humans because in the end it enables them to enjoy a better life themselves. Nobody needs to tell you that you should lead a good life because irrespective of a message from God most people would find it in their interest to do this even if only for selfish reasons. If there had been no bible/ no religion humans would still be bumbling along on Earth and probably be even more civilised than what we are now. Sor

[EmpireStateOfMind]

It would be good if this thread had got you to abandon religion for a moral code based on people and how you interact here and now; without the threat of if you treat them badly you won't go to heaven.

Also we were doomed from the off, god is apparently omniscient and knows what will happen - so knew that his creations would go awry before he even made them. He's therefore a **** watchmaker.

[michaeldc]

Just wondering if anyone has considered this idea:

Is it possible that one day science could prove the existence of a creator?

I don't suppose anyone could possibly know the answer to this, for science to work on proving something it needs a solid base and theory that can be expanded on and tested. I dare say attempts have been made though I seriously doubt the modern scientific community wastes its time with such trivial things these days. With science not looking for something (based on it being unfalsifiable and there being no proof to suggest it is true) then I would imagine the only way the existence of a creator could be proven would be if said creator made him/her/itself known to us in an irrefutable way.

For instance, if a creator came to Earth at a time when we could record it reliably, then proved it was divine and explained the reasons for things being as they were.

As for the original question (posed in a

[michaeldc]

I think many scientists do believe there might be a creator certainly as one of the options with the evidence they have found so far ie with the apparent fine tuning of the universe but I think they see the creator as being different to the one you see.

I have no idea where you got the impression that 'many' scientists think this and certainly there is no evidence to suggest any of it but judging on your posts it's entirely possible you're on a path of discovery right now. There's a great deal of conjecture and halve truths splattered throughout this thread but the idea that there are a lot of religious scientists or that the majority of scientists in the world care at all about this question is the most absurd. In the US (a hugely religious country) polls suggest that less than 10% of the members of the largest and most renowned scientific community are religious - not most, or many for that matter.

[quote="rolymiller" dat

[rolymiller]

Yep I stand to be corrected Michael "many scientists" is way over the top...I suppose I am trying to be open minded to what IBS is saying but his faith is blinding him to reality like it does to quite a few unfortunately. While agreeing with you and John2 that the christstian religion (along with other religions) is quite often poisonous, I think we have to accept if it doesn't affect others and if it brings some sort of comfort/ support to religious people then that is fair enough.

I think IBS sees that his fight to create a better/ fairer world can only be done through religion which is nonsense.There are plenty of political organisations out there he could join to aim to do that.

Give Brassgnat a ring IBS I'm sure he;ll help you out and I dont think your views are that far apart with what I have read on here..;-)

[Val_Mascal]

[quote="the_idiotb_stardson"]Is Christianity really that much of a problem in your life John?

Most Christians I know are just average, inoffensive human beings struggling with their own,, lust, greed, pride, dishonesty, and bouts of self righteousness, which their faith helps them overcome.

The rest of the time they are battling with their own self centred-ness and trying to avoid running jumble sales, working food banks and opening soup ********..and then reluctantly in most cases taking on these tasks in varying degrees.


Is Christianity really the evil empire that you make it out to be?


I am basically an old fashioned Labour Voter and find myself exasperated at the energy wasted on attacking the Church who it seems at the moment are doing a much better job than the Labour Party in sticking it to the government.

Every time I see another atheist have a pop, I wonder why they aren't protesting about the real issues of the day? Banker Greed, Illegal W

[Galant]

Spot on Val - I too have been impressed by Idiotb's honesty and thoughts - especially on other threads about football.
Personally - brought up a Christian, Labour Voter and member of the party and Millers fan - Dropped out of Labour party in my 20's when I realised I didn't agree with the other members, stopped voting Labour in my early 40's and now actively seek another party to replace them as I think their time is over - they represent the shirking classes not the working classes.
As for religion - believed until I got to 10+ and seriously doubted in early 20's when I actually read large chunks of THE 'HOLY' BIBLE and thought ''whaaaaat''.
Became atheist in my 40's when I realised that there was no actual evidence of GOD at all.
Actively encouraging others to think about belief now as the evil of religion spreads out from the middle east again - I now feel emancipated, liberated and pretty angry that I was indoctrinated with this religious garbage when very young.
As for my belief

[michaeldc]

I think we have to accept if it doesn't affect others and if it brings some sort of comfort/ support to religious people then that is fair enough.

I agree completely with this point but sadly people don't use it as purely a personal source of comfort, there's always interference in societal issues and recruiting going on, as described before, it's absolutely everywhere and commands far far too much respect in our society for the dated, puritanical, patronising piece of junk that it is.

I refer you to a great quote by the late Christopher Hitchens. I didn't always agree with him but his views on religion align perfectly with my own and I'm very grateful to have watched so many of his wonderful debates on youtube - I highly recommend them, though if time is precious you might consider the shorter 'best of the hitchslap' videos which are entertaining, funny and extremely intelligent arguments against the more stupid questions he re

[Val_Mascal]

[quote="Galant"]Spot on Val - I too have been impressed by Idiotb's honesty and thoughts - especially on other threads about football.
Personally - brought up a Christian, Labour Voter and member of the party and Millers fan - Dropped out of Labour party in my 20's when I realised I didn't agree with the other members, stopped voting Labour in my early 40's and now actively seek another party to replace them as I think their time is over - they represent the shirking classes not the working classes.
As for religion - believed until I got to 10+ and seriously doubted in early 20's when I actually read large chunks of THE 'HOLY' BIBLE and thought ''whaaaaat''.
Became atheist in my 40's when I realised that there was no actual evidence of GOD at all.
Actively encouraging others to think about belief now as the evil of religion spreads out from the middle east again - I now feel emancipated, liberated and pretty angry that I was indoctrinated with this religiou

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Roly, I am certainly not beating myself up. Penitence is part of the Christian tradition.

I find the worship of the Blair-loving, illegal-war, supporting, Hitchens, remarkable, especially by people on the left.

I see Michael DC would not let people push religious views on his family. i feel the same about Hitchens. I would be very worried indeed if my children started idolising a man who not only promoted the views of the blood thirsty Tony Blair, but was actually a friend of his.

Not only was Hitchens a sloppy scholar there are many fabrications in the book. His phony outrage about Mother Teresa not providing a lift for people in the homeless shelter in New York left out crucial details :the financial problems of the shelter and the fact that nuns offered to carry people up the stairs.

There are also moments of pure farce. He criticised Mother Theresa for taking money off the rich to give to the under privileged!!!

Hilarious!. Next time she should go around the slums of Calc

[michaeldc]

Ah you're back with more nonsense. Let's pick it apart shall we...

"I find the worship of the Blair-loving, illegal-war, supporting, Hitchens, remarkable, especially by people on the left."

I wouldn't find it too remarkable, I've already stated that I don't agree with everything Hitchens said but that I do agree completely with his views on religion. I don't worship him either, I leave that to the religious. Your not so subtle implication that everyone worships something is also incorrect.

"I see Michael DC would not let people push religious views on his family. i feel the same about Hitchens. I would be very worried indeed if my children started idolising a man who not only promoted the views of the blood thirsty Tony Blair, but was actually a friend of his."

Of course you'd be worried, he opposes most vehemently that which you cherish so much. Equating religious views being pushed onto people with that of scholars is really scraping the barrel. Some people are there to educate l

[John2]

Are you suggesting a man literally put himself in a position to be killed? Isn't it a great shame that we are not free to express our opinion because religious nut jobs might kill us for it? Je suis Charlie ring any bells?

There is quite a beautiful irony in the man extolling the virtue of religion making such a suggestion.

IBS is clearly a smart fella, but also quite weak minded and needs his crutch. Its a shame. I also think he is deeply conflicted as somewhere in the back of his mind there is a troubling and niggling doubt, I think that's the source of many of these types of waves of religious posts, work through his inner turmoil.

I like how he keeps quoting number of Christians as though the number of people who believe has anything to do with whether or not it is true. Everyone in the world used to believe in witches, even though they're more plausible than the desert dwelling zombie... didn't make them real.

[michaeldc]

To be honest, I'd argue both were equally stupid but I see your point John.

I re-read IBS's paragraph on Dawkins and I feel compelled to break it down further, I can't let the lies and half-truths stay un-dissected, some innocent child might read it and assume it's true.

"On a BBC radio interview, Dawkins tried the same tactic when the results of the last census showed that more English people identified as Christian than he thought. The arrogant Dawkins, couldn't stomach the answers so he tried to claim that they weren't really Christians because they couldn't books in the Bible. A Pastor who was also on the show then asked Dawkins to the full title of Darwin's 'Origin of the Species' .Dawkins starts to 'um' and 'ah' and hilariously can be heard to utter "Oh God" in the background. Now I wouldn't be arrogant enough to assume because Dawkins doesn't know the title of his favourite book that this means Dawkins doesn't believe in Evolution. But it's not the same when Dawkins

[millavanilla]

Someone once said to me, "which is the more probable...life on another planet or god?...but i suppose if ibs believes in god and it makes him feel at peace with himself, whats wrong with that?..

[michaeldc]

[quote="millavanilla"which is the more probable...life on another planet or god?...but i suppose if ibs believes in god and it makes him feel at peace with himself, whats wrong with that?..[/quote]

That point has been addressed several times in this thread already, if you don't have time to read it all then I'll summerise.

No one, I repeat, NO ONE has any problem with someone choosing to believe in this stuff, or choosing to pray or worship or whatever they want to do. Some people do however have a very big problem with it being pushed on them and with it interfering in their lives as it does constantly, there are many examples in this thread but for arguments sake, the churches view on gay marriage, why the hell should I care about that? It's completely irrelevant and the church should have no say whatsoever in legislation in this country. There are lots of other instances of religion sticking it's oar in where it's neither want

[kempo]

Something that has always struck me as odd throughout my career is that when the event of dying becomes obvious the fear of this event is the same in vicars, priests and atheists.

I can only explain this by thinking that in spite of all their belief talk and actions, in truth they never really believed...certainly no more than on the balance of probabilities anyway!

[michaeldc]

Something that has always struck me as odd throughout my career is that when the event of dying becomes obvious the fear of this event is the same in vicars, priests and atheists.

I can only explain this by thinking that in spite of all their belief talk and actions, in truth they never really believed...certainly no more than on the balance of probabilities anyway!

Reminds me of something else that bothers me, only the religious would consider it morally sound to use someone's impending death as an excuse to recruit. "You're dying anyway, what have you got to lose? Better safe than sorry right?" It's despicable.

[Val_Mascal]

Something that has always struck me as odd throughout my career is that when the event of dying becomes obvious the fear of this event is the same in vicars, priests and atheists.

I can only explain this by thinking that in spite of all their belief talk and actions, in truth they never really believed...certainly no more than on the balance of probabilities anyway!

Reminds me of something else that bothers me, only the religious would consider it morally sound to use someone's impending death as an excuse to recruit. "You're dying anyway, what have you got to lose? Better safe than sorry right?" It's despicable.[/quote]

Pascal's wager - probably the best argument for believing in God...but still an epic fail!
No one can force themselves to believe in anything - you either do or you don't.

[monty_rhodes]

Questions, questions. Would Jesus have hidden behind a username? Would Jesus have vented such bile at Dawkins? Would Jesus have constantly posted provocative threads and then said pathetically 'I won't post on this topic again as I never anticipated such rancour.'? IBS is a complete and utter rrsehole who thinks he is far cleverer than he is.

[millavanilla]

Questions, questions. Would Jesus have hidden behind a username? Would Jesus have vented such bile at Dawkins? Would Jesus have constantly posted provocative threads and then said pathetically 'I won't post on this topic again as I never anticipated such rancour.'? IBS is a complete and utter rrsehole who thinks he is far cleverer than he is.


If you look at his avator/picture, he caught them all before he caught you!... :)

[HerbieCobbler]

Here is my take on this subject...

There are 7 major religions believed in on our planet. There is only one God, so six must be imposters.

Upon our demise we will all go to the Pearly Gates, knock, and ask to be allowed in.

Sitting upon 7 golden thrones will be the 7 God's. We shall each walk up to our own God with trepidation. Our God will look upon us with caring eyes, and reach in to a concealed box in the arm of his throne. Our God will remove a scripture which is neatly folded in half, and sealed with a wax stamp, gold in colour.

He will break the seal, whilst the other six God's look on. He will unfold the scripture, cast his eyes on it, then look back at you.

He will slowly turn the scripture around so you can read it...

"BLUFF"

At this point all 7 God's P!ss themselves with laughter whilst high-fiving each other.