OK, let's discuss where the problems lie?

[Oldtimeram]

I do not intend this to be viewed as a knee jerk reaction to losing so disappointingly last night.

OK, let's look at some of facts.

I think last night was a very strange game and I did see a few positives (not many I must admit). In the first half I think we played reasonably well compared to other recent games. Second half was a disaster I guess. With saying that we were a bit unfortunate with the goals we conceded. Burnley are no great shakes and we were never 3 goals worse than them. However, my concerns about the performances over the past month or so are more worrying. Since the Hull game we have not played well. To be honest we have not really played consistently well all season.

Why?

I'll throw in a few possible reasons for discussion?

Is PC good enough? As an assistant coach, probably. As a coach in his own right...hmm, I am not sure he is, but I am prepared to give him a fair chance to prove me wrong. Last night the guy looked lost and did not look l

[paulo570]

I was just about to post something almost the same as this......

1.square pegs in round holes is an issue.ince and Blackman are out of position.this wide forward role needs a wide forward playing it ...or play a different formation.

2.previous games have seen us sit deep an pass at a slow tempo. And not claim she down ..first half yesterday was better though....

3.recruitment...seem to buy players who are not top draw players but paying top draw prices.seems to me as if many have an ego (can't prove it but seems that way).
Buying players where we don't have a position for them in the current formation.

3.harmony..seems to have gone.usually comes down to poor man management.why are players wives tweeting!...not a good sign

4.quick passing moves constantly slowed down by ince and Christie on the right...defeats the object.

5.johnson...this guy started well for us...what has gone wrong.confidence? Coaching and tactics? Played out of position? Become a bad player over

[Rattea]

Or we are playing the teams we struggled against earlier in the season and results will most likely pick up when we play the teams at the bottom
If the league. Or is that to simple ;)

Unfortunately it's looking like some of the signings like Johnson aren't that adaptable and we just are not as good as some would like to think.

Jury is out on the manager but at this team he's looking a little one dimensional!

[paulo570]

Playing a passing style game and having a slow Chris Martin upfront doesn't suit him or us....he needs people around him for touches and flicks..runners beyond him...play this game say ...or don't play Martin.

[vanderlaans_header]

As you allude to in your post OTR it was a strange game. In fact Burnley didn't offer much but ended up winning 4-1. So I am prepared to wipe that game from memory.

Regarding the players, yes some have been disappointing but I am not privy as to who Clement wanted and who was already lined up by Evans. However Butterfield is quality and I think Camara has potential. Carson & Shackell are sound acquisitions. Johnson initially showed that he can be a top performer, but has gone off the boil. Blackman would not have been my choice, but obviously Mel was not going to break the bank again for a top striker like Afobe or Austin.

To answer your question on the manager. It's far too early to judge. Clough had something like 5 years and the end result was stability. Clement has a different remit and while I don't suggest he gets five years, he is entitled to a couple of seasons. We are still in the top 6 and will most likely make the play offs.

Regarding unrest, this probably happens

[blackandwhite56]

Excellent starting post OTR, that seems to me to ask the important questions.

When we were in our bad run last season, we didn't always play badly but, like last night, we were undone by horrible defensive errors and uncertainty ( in the poor run we actually drew a lot of matches having to fight back when such errors were made ).

For me, Clement is failing to sort out our forwards and develop our ability to make sustained threatening attacking play.

We can all see how futile it is playing Ince wide right. But the same issue affect us when he chooses to play Weimann and(last night) Blackman wide left. Players are not played in positions that suit them best.

We are too cautious . Time after time when we do get a cross in , there aren't players in the box or running in to take advantage.

Some will blame individual players but its a coaching and selection issue.

Who selected the players we signed this season? How much was Clement involved ? Its like we've brought the pl

[Oldtimeram]

We somehow need to get back to the attacking formation we had two seasons ago. OK, we do not have Hughes at the moment but I think Butterfield can do that role. We still have the personnel, so why not?

Back then we used to score for fun, the games were exciting, but now we have a better defence in theory, so we should be better equipped.

All the tools are still in the workshop, but do we have a competent manager to bring the team together? I hope so, more than believe so, at present.

[vanderlaans_header]

We somehow need to get back to the attacking formation we had two seasons ago. OK, we do not have Hughes at the moment but I think Butterfield can do that role. We still have the personnel, so why not?

Back then we used to score for fun, the games were exciting, but now we have a better defence in theory, so we should be better equipped.

All the tools are still in the workshop, but do we have a competent manager to bring the team together? I hope so, more than believe so, at present.

I understand OTR, there are some who have concerns regarding the manager / coach. Given the predicament of the chairman in the summer, who would you have opted for, as opposed to Clement. Just interested.

[AnagRam]

If I can answer that one VdLH, and this is no sort of 'Clement out' campaign...I'd have been happy to see Gary Rowett brought in during the summer. Nothing that's happened since has changed that view and I think, if they can work together, Rowett and Carsley together would be very interesting. MM didn't go down that route though and we have to give PC the chance to sort the current dreadful mess out.

[stamfordram]

The squad is now far too big - I think the number of players has created an atmosphere of indecision within the management , players & supporters. I think it has created disharmony amongst the players and has undermined the confidence level between the manager and the players.

It is difficult for the established players to have any confidence in PC when a large number of his signings don't even get on the bench ( Bent , Pearce , Weiman ) & when the anointed club captain is relegated to an unused sub.

This constant chopping and changing of players ( Grant / Carson; Hendrick / Butterfield) must start to impact on the players concerned and the other senior players)

Just to add my input - Carson : Christie : Keogh : Shackell : Butterfield must play every game - pretty obvious I know but I despair every time Butterfield is left out.

I would add Warnock to that list but it seems we are about to sign yet another player so I will reserve judgement on that one.

Derby are very s

[Oldtimeram]

We somehow need to get back to the attacking formation we had two seasons ago. OK, we do not have Hughes at the moment but I think Butterfield can do that role. We still have the personnel, so why not?

Back then we used to score for fun, the games were exciting, but now we have a better defence in theory, so we should be better equipped.

All the tools are still in the workshop, but do we have a competent manager to bring the team together? I hope so, more than believe so, at present.

I understand OTR, there are some who have concerns regarding the manager / coach. Given the predicament of the chairman in the summer, who would you have opted for, as opposed to Clement. Just interested. [/quote]

We have got to give the guy a fair chance to prove himself. As folk can probably detect, the jury is out on him. However, if he can eradicate some of the shortcomings he see

[vanderlaans_header]

If I can answer that one VdLH, and this is no sort of 'Clement out' campaign...I'd have been happy to see Gary Rowett brought in during the summer. Nothing that's happened since has changed that view and I think, if they can work together, Rowett and Carsley together would be very interesting.

Very interesting AR. Rowett would have ticked the box as a manager who could grow with the club. I'm guessing he wasn't available at the time, being not long into the job at Birmingham. Carsley has potential as a top a coach in the future.

[pcewe]

I may be a Forest fan but like to think I'm not a WUM so I genuinely can't believe that no post yet seem to identify Keogh as a weak point in your team. Quite the contrary actually.
I know he's a 100% type player but he's an accident waiting to happen.

[stamfordram]

Keogh has been outstanding this season but last night was a nightmare for him & Shackell. My concern pre January was that a Premier League team would come in for him but I think the last few games will scupper that. He is quite impetuous as as a defender (hence the penalties and OGs) whereas Shackell is much more considered (forgetting last night). I would put them up there as amongst the Top 3 CD pairings in the division. I am sure if you only watched Derby last night you would think they area"an accident waiting to happen" but across the season they have been excellent.

[AnagRam]

Treating that observation with the respect any WUM doesn't deserve...can see where you're coming from on the evidence of last night pcewe. That though really isn't a reflection of the season as a whole. Sadly the guy seems to have an unfortunate tendency to make high profile - i.e. 'televised' - mistakes. Doubt many would argue that he and Shackell have been our most reliable and committed players all season, it really was just 'one of those nights' for the pair of them last night. Had Granty been playing he'd probably have copped some stick too for 'unsettling' the defence.

[HOODIE]

If you sign players and pay them far more than the players already at the club your going to get disharmony.

Its not rocket science.

[pcewe]

[quote="stamfordram" but across the season they have been excellent.[/quote]
You obviously see a lot more of him than me Stamford so maybe I'm just seeing him have off days when I see you on the TV or when we play. I'm not just judging them on last night though as I think Shavkell is an excellent defender despite what happened last night.
The reason I mention it is because sometimes the 100% players that play for your own club seem harder

[pcewe]

Treating that observation with the respect any WUM doesn't deserve...can see where you're coming from on the evidence of last night pcewe. That though really isn't a reflection of the season as a whole. Sadly the guy seems to have an unfortunate tendency to make high profile - i.e. 'televised' - mistakes. Doubt many would argue that he and Shackell have been our most reliable and committed players all season, it really was just 'one of those nights' for the pair of them last night. Had Granty been playing he'd probably have copped some stick too for 'unsettling' the defence.
Thanks for that AnagRam.

[BaaLocks]

Well, one thing is for sure, we are blowing it from the top of the table more often than Monica Lewinsky.

Couple of points for me:

1: Some of the players bought pre-season were not Clements. It's been put on here more than once that they were all set up and decided by the time he arrived. I'm guessing Bent, Pearce and Wiemann fall into that category. Now, these players find themselves out of favour because the new boss didn't choose them it raises two questions. One, he is right and they were mistakes - in which case get rid. Two, he's just being stubborn and cutting off his nose to spite his face. EIther way, I'd suggest they are the bad apples that potentially could spoil the barrel - Weimann apparently needed to be persuaded to come and now he's hear he's back on the bench but a division lower (just!). So, four days to go, either cut them (on loan or sale) or integrate them into the team - at the moment they seem to be neither.

2: Is there something in the Pride Park manual

[vanderlaans_header]

If you sign players and pay them far more than the players already at the club your going to get disharmony.

Its not rocket science.

A problem that has to be managed at a lot of clubs, but yes your post is a correct & simplistic observation.

[Toggles]

We seem to have lost what made us strong - our togetherness.

For the last 3 years we've had a team capable of promotion. We were unlucky at Wembley, were on track the year after 'til SMc lost the dressing room by saying he was jumping ship to Newcastle (after a summer spent pleading with players to stay for another crack at promotion), and Martin's injury came at a bad time.

This summer we've undermined our key players by bringing in a plethora of new players who, in the main, are not an obvious improvement on what we had, and in many cases are actually worse.

We were the envy on many teams with our snappy attacking play, and the fact that we'd build a young hungry team on a fairly limited budget. Now, we have a MASSIVE squad that we are paying a hell of a lot for - half of whom are not playing, or are not playing in what they feel the right position, and the other half who probably feel a bit betrayed at the lack of faith in them. AND WE KEEP ADDING TO IT!!

£20, £25m (w

[Satanic Ram]

[quote="Toggles"]We seem to have lost what made us strong - our togetherness.

For the last 3 years we've had a team capable of promotion. We were unlucky at Wembley, were on track the year after 'til SMc lost the dressing room by saying he was jumping ship to Newcastle (after a summer spent pleading with players to stay for another crack at promotion), and Martin's injury came at a bad time.

This summer we've undermined our key players by bringing in a plethora of new players who, in the main, are not an obvious improvement on what we had, and in many cases are actually worse.

We were the envy on many teams with our snappy attacking play, and the fact that we'd build a young hungry team on a fairly limited budget. Now, we have a MASSIVE squad that we are paying a hell of a lot for - half of whom are not playing, or are not playing in what they feel the right position, and the other half who probably feel a bit betrayed at the lack of faith in them.

[OldRamsFan]

I think you've hit the nail on the head Toggles.We should,on paper,be flying high but something,somewhere is badly askew.
Martin is playing with no apparent interest and you have to ask if this is because he feels undermined by recent acquisitions.
The fluid football of earlier in the season;while not having totally gone;is now just there in patches.
Clement seems to think that changing things around all the time is the answer but it is obviously not.He can't settle on his best eleven and it's disrupting our game alarmingly.
Not for the first time I'm debating if renewing my season ticket is a wise move.
Looking at upcoming games you'd think we should be getting some points on board but there's a big if about that for me right now.

[eddy779h34]

Here's my thoughts for what its worth

Blackman Ince Russell Weimann are out of position playing wide right or left , not one of them can take a full back on a cross a telling ball - not one of them when we have good ball on their opposite wing drive into the penalty area as support for Martin that must be the manager telling them to stay wide ?
Johnson is not a attack minded midfielder the only position he could play is Thorne's but he's not as good a player
We lack midfield runners going beyond Martin .
Our formation is flawed although we dominated the ball last night lack of bodies in the box is evident.
Rather than buy Blackman a big dominant Centre half would have been money better spent
We need to find a system with two up top
I would play 5 3 2 with quality wing backs............ but we haven't the quality wing backs ...........and we haven't another quality player for the back three........ maybe Johnson or Throne could do it

[AngryRam]

Pick a team, any bloody team and STICK with it.. Conti bloody nuity. The players are all over the place, in out, out in..
We are nearly in February and we have no idea of a system or what is our best team.
How many games on the trot was that the same team for Burnley.. When they were under pressure they stuck together and found a way.
>:(

[wristslasher_909]

Totally with you there Angry. Keep putting that 11 out week in, week out and I think we will finish strong.

Burnley defended very well last night, and our defending was comical!

Move on from a game that most us expected very little from.

Also, fans need to get a bit of perspective and remember good teams take time to build. Relax.

[ManxRam]

Rome wasn't built in a day, then again I wasn't on that job

[ramspride]

OK so everyone admits we have a big squad full of good players. Players who were signed, in the main, because of their perfomances at their previous clubs. As many have asked earlier in this post why are they then played out of position? If we had a small squad and had injuries you could understant it but with our squad why? You can't blame the players for doing what they are told to do.

[Toggles]

The problem is that Rome was nearly finished, just needed a bit of landscaping, but somebody came in and levelled half of it!