IS kill Christians

[AfghanRam]

Hi Swale,

Care to comment after slagging me off for my post last week? Not looking for a verbal slanging match here, but you were extremely dismissive of my comments.

I see this becoming more the norm in the Middle East, but what do I know, Ive only served there ???? - view external link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36011663)

[roger_ramjet]

I didnt realise you were a waiter Afghan?

[AfghanRam]

Cleaner Mate - You dont need to be frontline, I was close enough to form an opinion. In ****q I paid all the local ****qs so I had a fair ammount to do with them.

I wonder how many I paid in the day, were shelling us at night. I could see the hatred in some of there eyes, so there is a fair possibility as most were ex conscripts.

[AnagRam]

Cleaner Mate - You dont need to be frontline, I was close enough to form an opinion. In ****q I paid all the local ****qs so I had a fair ammount to do with them.

I wonder how many I paid in the day, were shelling us at night. I could see the hatred in some of there eyes, so there is a fair possibility as most were ex conscripts.

But isn't that the point Afghan? Genuinely liberating armies are welcomed in the countries they become involved in but we're a small country in the North Atlantic that repeatedly keeps poking its nose into affairs that are taking place thousands of miles away. Our interest is political/financial rather than humanitarian and although I don't blame the majority of our actual soldiers, our actions have actually only led to the resentment you describe and ultimately put the UK more at risk of terrorist attack.

[alfinyalcabo]

They would kill every Christian in the world given chance..the Free world needs to unite and annihilate all these IS scum wherever they are..

[AfghanRam]

I can't disagree with any of that, when signing on the dotted line you accept that you go when and where you are sent.

Once warned for operations you can not leave, you are restricted from leaving. You can leave after the tour tough.

Did I agree with ****q or Afghanistan deployments? No, but thats the Governments decision, we have to do as we are told.

For people to claim that professional fulltime soldiers are mercenaries have no idea about the full facts. As a serviceman, you in my view have choosen a vocation in life. You lose your liberty, get sent anywhere at a moments notice, work 6 1/2 - 7 day weeks on Tour and get no overtime.

Servicemen also are stand in firemen, ambulance drivers, binmen, bridge builders and sand baggers for floods. Provide support for disposal of corpses for swine flu and mad cows etc etc etc. All for no extra pay, so for certain people to take pot shots on DCM is plain ignorant iny veiw.

However, we are all entitled to them, but I wond

[alfinyalcabo]

My father was a Royal Marine Commando during the second world war ,he was severely wounded on the Dieppe raid with Shrapnel fire and was in hospital for nine months .. He was taught to paralyse / kill the Germans with just touching a certain place or nerve on the body He would never show me the move..lol

[AfghanRam]

Just another thought, with out professional full time soldiers who would deploy? Conscription would be the of the game. All you lefties branding the military as mercanaries, would have to join up and do your bit tooooo!

I like to see that tool Jeremy Corbyn at the front of the queue. How can he consider himself a credible leader, he looks like he shops at age concern. He is a joke!

[Arundelred]

Just another thought, with out professional full time soldiers who would deploy? Conscription would be the of the game. All you lefties branding the military as mercanaries, would have to join up and do your bit tooooo!

I like to see that tool Jeremy Corbyn at the front of the queue. How can he consider himself a credible leader, he looks like he shops at age concern. He is a joke!

No one, and if we could persuade the other side to forgive our past misdemeanours we'd have peace. The word that War Junkies detest but Civilisation clamours for.:) Also little do you know about Age Concern. They have some quite good stuff, and it's only the profits that go to the aged and not the merchandise. Much better than Government Surplus and Sam Brown belts that you go for. XD

[AfghanRam]

IS want to erase all othe religions from the face of the earth. That is phuck all to do with ****q or Afghan!!!!!!

Ive been retired now for 2 1/2 years yet you still bang on about it. Good to see your pension allows you a good standard of secondhand clothes.

[AnagRam]

Blimey Afghan, for someone who began by not wanting a 'verbal slanging match' you're certainly going about having one. Thought my point was reasonably made but if it's just going to lead to the usual mindless and irrelevant 'you lefties, what would you do without us, Corbyn's a tool because he doesn't wear a suit' response...forget it.

Alf...we've all got parents, grandparents, family members who served and possibly suffered during the World Wars, I know I have but so what...and I doubt any supposedly 'secret' moves that were taught in the forties remain secret today anyway.

[AfghanRam]

I just think very little respect is given to those, who are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice and it riles me.

If you think Im being harsh, I apologise, but it is time for people to wake up and smell the coffee. IS are never going to play nicely.

Would you fight on these shores if asked to do so? I just think there are plenty that wouldn't step up if required, all to happy to mud sling. You may or you may not, I have no idea and I dont want to know the answer either.

In an ideal angelic world there would be no need for the military. However, there is very much a need and mark my words NI 2 is visiting ta street very near you with in the next 20 years if not much sooner. I guess those mercenaires will be more welcomed then?

[claw84]

Blimey Afghan, for someone who began by not wanting a 'verbal slanging match' you're certainly going about having one. Thought my point was reasonably made but if it's just going to lead to the usual mindless and irrelevant 'you lefties, what would you do without us, Corbyn's a tool because he doesn't wear a suit' response...forget it.

Anag, I think you should give Afgan some respect, unless you have served in the forces on active service you cannot imagine the stress it can put on you.

A point in question is that of Sgt Alex Blackman Royal Marines who now is interned in a Wiltshire prison, after seeing several of his comrades killed he shot a fatally wounded taliban, he is now serving time.

[AnagRam]

I just think very little respect is given to those, who are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice and it riles me.

If you think Im being harsh, I apologise, but ir is time for people to wake up and smell the coffee. IS are never going to play nicely.

Frankly I couldn't give a stuff how 'harsh' you're being...I just want 'reasonable' debate. No one on here has shown disrespect for the vast majority of soldiers in fact most have spoken of how sad it is that our, largely young people, are 'used' by politicians in this way.
IS are scum, completely agree, but they are not reflective of most Muslim thought anymore then the IR A was reflective of Catholic philosophy. Personally I think we'd be better off without any organised religion at all but my point is...the extremism that IS stands for has been largely born out of two things...the injustice that is synonymous with poverty in those regions of the World and poorly targeted an

[Arundelred]

IS want to erase all othe religions from the face of the earth. That is phuck all to do with ****q or Afghan!!!!!!

Ive been retired now for 2 1/2 years yet you still bang on about it. Good to see your pension allows you a good standard of secondhand clothes.

ISIS only came in to being when we interfered in the tribal structure in their area and created a vacuum. I doubt whether they could erase all other religions of the Earth, even the Jesuit Missionaries could not achieve that.

[AnagRam]

Blimey Afghan, for someone who began by not wanting a 'verbal slanging match' you're certainly going about having one. Thought my point was reasonably made but if it's just going to lead to the usual mindless and irrelevant 'you lefties, what would you do without us, Corbyn's a tool because he doesn't wear a suit' response...forget it.

Anag, I think you should give Afgan some respect, unless you have served in the forces on active service you cannot imagine the stress it can put on you.

A point in question is that of Sgt Alex Blackman Royal Marines who now is interned in a Wiltshire prison, after seeing several of his comrades killed he shot a fatally wounded taliban, he is now serving time.[/quote]

Claw, when have I not shown Afghan respect and when has society not shown soldiers respect...'Help for Heroes', Poppy Day etc? I appreciate the stress that being on active service puts on peo

[AfghanRam]

I just think very little respect is given to those, who are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice and it riles me.

If you think Im being harsh, I apologise, but ir is time for people to wake up and smell the coffee. IS are never going to play nicely.

Frankly I couldn't give a stuff how 'harsh' you're being...I just want 'reasonable' debate. No one on here has shown disrespect for the vast majority of soldiers in fact most have spoken of how sad it is that our, largely young people, are 'used' by politicians in this way.
IS are scum, completely agree, but they are not reflective of most Muslim thought anymore then the IR A was reflective of Catholic philosophy. Personally I think we'd be better off without any organised religion at all but my point is...the extremism that IS stands for has been partly born out of two things...the injustice that is synonymous with poverty in those re

[AfghanRam]

Blimey Afghan, for someone who began by not wanting a 'verbal slanging match' you're certainly going about having one. Thought my point was reasonably made but if it's just going to lead to the usual mindless and irrelevant 'you lefties, what would you do without us, Corbyn's a tool because he doesn't wear a suit' response...forget it.

Anag, I think you should give Afgan some respect, unless you have served in the forces on active service you cannot imagine the stress it can put on you.

A point in question is that of Sgt Alex Blackman Royal Marines who now is interned in a Wiltshire prison, after seeing several of his comrades killed he shot a fatally wounded taliban, he is now serving time.[/quote]

Claw, when have I not shown Afghan respect and when has society not shown soldiers respect...'Help for Heroes', Poppy Day etc? I appreciate the stres

[AnagRam]

C'mon Afghan, you know there's good and bad in every profession and you probably know better than me that the 'bad apples' in the armed forces have done untold damage whether it be via wartime 'atrocities' or barrack room bullying. That's why I qualified my approval by referring to the 'majority'.

Look back at the 'debate' and you'll find that Claw suggested I should show you more respect because of the stress brought about by the demands of 'active service'. I never felt as if I'd disrespected you in the first place. We don't entirely agree and I know I can't claim your 'experience' but I don't think the armed forces have the 'monopoly' on stressful occupations although they might have it in terms of public sympathy.

P.S. Seeing as you asked, my opinion on Choudry is the same as it is for all extremists, be they radical religious figures or members of the BN P/NF...they feed off each other and we'd all be a lot better of without any of them

[AfghanRam]

Some fair comments there, its easy to form an opinion of a profession without all the facts.

One thing I will say though, after the firemans strikes on 02/03 many soldiers became firemen. Ill let you draw your on conclusions on that one ;-)

[Altobelli]

Good Thread this and I'm enjoying the read.

I have my own beliefs and have commented many times on this forum in the past so my thoughts are well known so I will not throw my 2 peneth in on this one.

I can understand some of the posters on here and their views.,AfghanRam feels very passionate about his beliefs and seems to be getting frustrated, I know this because I do the same when I'm passionate about something and tend to "speak" a lot to try and get my point over as it seems its falling on deaf ears, I also understand it is not falling on deaf ears most of the time and AfghanRam is trying to force his point, this is not a slur on you Afghan, message boards are a very good tool to express your thoughts but sometimes it can also be frustrating.

[AnagRam]

Some fair comments there, its easy to form an opinion of a profession without all the facts.

One thing I will say though, after the firemans strikes on 02/03 many soldiers became firemen. Ill let you draw your on conclusions on that one ;-)

So the so called 'lefty' - I have no actual party political allegiance but will happily admit to being 'left of centre' on most social issues - and the ex-serviceman can agree on somethings. Feel the love...;-)

[swaledale]

Some fair comments there, its easy to form an opinion of a profession without all the facts.

One thing I will say though, after the firemans strikes on 02/03 many soldiers became firemen. Ill let you draw your on conclusions on that one ;-)


The conclusion i draw from that is they recognised that being a fireman was an easier life with little chance of getting shot or blown up, no requirement to kill people that have done nothing to you, little requirement to stay away from home for long periods. They obviously saw the light!

The facts are that if you choose to join the armed forces - nobody is forced these days, then you sign up for the job description, just don't kid yourself its all about "defence of the country" not in the Uk army at any rate.

Nobody is diminishing what a terrible experience war is, or that armed forces have a function, but its worth looking past the jingoism and pomp that is used to con people in

[AfghanRam]

A good post - If you read through my posts, I have said they want to kill all religions.

[alfinyalcabo]

According to one well known Newspaper, England is becoming a nation within a nation... I don't like the Newspaper that said this,but they do have a point ,I can see this happening in large parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire.. They will become breeding grounds for terrorists ..Just imagine if one in every thousand people became a terrorist ,that would mean England would have approx knocking on for 70.000 terrorists...Frightening stats..

[AfghanRam]

Not just stats - Realism if we don't spend time and money to find out why so much radicalism is taking place. I have spent a lot of time in Luton and there are some areas I would not walk around alone at night.

[claw84]

On the bright side I believe that IS are on the wane, yes they have had their moments but.....

Their territory is shrinking, they have just lost Palemyra and other towns.

Many Asians who went out to Syria have now come back.

Their leaders are steadily being vaporized by drones

Belgian attackers have been caught or killed.

Live by the sword they shall die by the sword, the pond life.

[AnagRam]

When I was growing up, a little way north of Manchester, there were plenty of places where I wouldn't have walked around alone Afghan.
Back in the sixties and early seventies it had nothing to do with immigration, the only Asians we saw were on the bus over the Pennines to Bradford. It was all to do with poverty.
The places to avoid were the toughest estates and the poorest backstreets which were universally white working class or, although the term hadn't been invented then, the under class.
I'm no apologist for those who use hate and radicalisation to foster terrorism but not much has changed imo. The seeds are still to be found in the fact that we live in a world which contains such shocking examples of the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. A life of poverty leads to resentment especially now that we are so much more aware of how much the 'haves' actually have. So many migrants have arrived from poor countries believing that the UK is the answer to their problems only to find themse

[AfghanRam]

I agree with some of that, but the radicalisation is of great concern, I think it is now a deeper routed cancer than people realise. I really hope I am wrong, but the UK is another Bosnia in waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gaz1959]

If there are places where we ought not go due to fear of being attacked does that mean white people aren't safe or is no one safe in these so called areas?

[AfghanRam]

What do you think?

I know they are trying to provoke a reaction but listen to what is being said in the video. Idiots for marching in the first place, but what is alarming is the hatred angled by peaceful Muslims. - view external link (https://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/britain-muslim-no-go-zones-emerging-in-bury-park-luton-video/)

[AnagRam]

I think, while there are places where it might be unwise for white people to go there are just as many where Asians, particularly those who are conspicuously Muslim, would be at serious risk. It's in the interests of extremists on all sides for it to be like that which is why, imo, the 'fight' should be against extremism not each other.

What is 'alarming' Afghan, is that a bunch of thugs who come across like a cross between 1930's Nazis and the KKK want to behave like that. Totally provocative, they set out to wind up the Asian population and behave in a totally divisive way. Had I been one of their 'targets' I would have felt both threatened and outraged. This is exactly what extremists such as 'Britain First' want.

[AfghanRam]

I agree wholeheartedly - You are quite right. I don't have the right to walk safely everywhere in GB because I am a white Christian. Everyone should have the right to walk safely in GB regardless of race or religion.

[Acido]

Good Thread this and I'm enjoying the read.

Nahh this thread is not for me Alto, let me know when some jokes have been posted ;)

[Arundelred]

I agree wholeheartedly - You are quite right. I don't have the right to walk safely everywhere in GB because I am a white Christian. Everyone should have the right to walk safely in GB regardless of race or religion.

When was the last time you were handcuffed to a fence and body searched by the Police ? :/

[Rattea]

Cleaner Mate - You dont need to be frontline, I was close enough to form an opinion. In ****q I paid all the local ****qs so I had a fair ammount to do with them.

I wonder how many I paid in the day, were shelling us at night. I could see the hatred in some of there eyes, so there is a fair possibility as most were ex conscripts.

But isn't that the point Afghan? Genuinely liberating armies are welcomed in the countries they become involved in but we're a small country in the North Atlantic that repeatedly keeps poking its nose into affairs that are taking place thousands of miles away. Our interest is political/financial rather than humanitarian and although I don't blame the majority of our actual soldiers, our actions have actually only led to the resentment you describe and ultimately put the UK more at risk of terrorist attack.[/quote]

Exactly. What is happening now is as a dire

[AnagRam]

Good Thread this and I'm enjoying the read.

Nahh this thread is not for me Alto, let me know when some jokes have been posted ;)[/quote]

Just for you Acido...a Muslim, a Jew and a Christian walk into a bar...they have a few drinks, a chat and a laugh. That's what happens when you're not an extremist asshole!

[swaledale]

I agree with some of that, but the radicalisation is of great concern, I think it is now a deeper routed cancer than people realise. I really hope I am wrong, but the UK is another Bosnia in waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hardly, the Balkans have always been an issue, World War 1 started because of the Archdukes assasination, Yugoslavia always was a forced amalgamation of quite separate states that would inevitably break up, just a shame it happened so violently.

The UK is not comparable and the alarmist statements are not based on any facts but myths. Sure there are serious social problems - these are not confined to any particular race or religion, they can be found in any area of the country where social and economic inequalities restrict peoples life chances Hastings, Clacton, Great yarmouth, Bristol, the Welsh valleys Liverpool, West Yorkshire parts of lancashire Birmingham, everywhere one can find abject poverty and its getting w

[Acido]

Good Thread this and I'm enjoying the read.

Nahh this thread is not for me Alto, let me know when some jokes have been posted ;)[/quote]

Just for you Acido...a Muslim, a Jew and a Christian walk into a bar...they have a few drinks, a chat and a laugh. That's what happens when you're not an extremist asshole![/quote]

Are you having a pop at me there Anagram ? :P

[Rattea]

I agree with some of that, but the radicalisation is of great concern, I think it is now a deeper routed cancer than people realise. I really hope I am wrong, but the UK is another Bosnia in waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is not invading a country and killing people including innocent women and children with no just cause and carrying it out question a form of brain washing and radicalisation on another level when the superior power. Especially when the opposition is of no threat to you or you life?

Why are those allied troops who have gone into the Middle East any different and not considered radicalised.

Maybe they are te cancer you speak of. So brainwashed they can't see it even after all the evidence!!!

[AfghanRam]

Cleaner Mate - You dont need to be frontline, I was close enough to form an opinion. In ****q I paid all the local ****qs so I had a fair ammount to do with them.

I wonder how many I paid in the day, were shelling us at night. I could see the hatred in some of there eyes, so there is a fair possibility as most were ex conscripts.

But isn't that the point Afghan? Genuinely liberating armies are welcomed in the countries they become involved in but we're a small country in the North Atlantic that repeatedly keeps poking its nose into affairs that are taking place thousands of miles away. Our interest is political/financial rather than humanitarian and although I don't blame the majority of our actual soldiers, our actions have actually only led to the resentment you describe and ultimately put the UK more at risk of terrorist attack.[/quote]

Ex

[AnagRam]

Good Thread this and I'm enjoying the read.

Nahh this thread is not for me Alto, let me know when some jokes have been posted ;)[/quote]

Just for you Acido...a Muslim, a Jew and a Christian walk into a bar...they have a few drinks, a chat and a laugh. That's what happens when you're not an extremist asshole![/quote]

Are you having a pop at me there Anagram ? :P[/quote]

Absolutely not Acido...you wanted a joke...it's not a great one admittedly but it kind of makes my point. I don't get the need for the 'tribalism' of religion but without all the radical extremists we stand a much better chance of getting along together.

[Acido]

Yes in all fairness Anag, thats what I thought you were trying to say (hence the smiley face as i was joking).
To be honest these political and sometimes racial threads just dont interest me, thats why I try to stay away from them.

Give me some good comedy, a few beers, and a Barnsley win and Im happy (just like tonight actually, get in there super Sammy Winnall against Oldham lol).

[Arundelred]

Cleaner Mate - You dont need to be frontline, I was close enough to form an opinion. In ****q I paid all the local ****qs so I had a fair ammount to do with them.

I wonder how many I paid in the day, were shelling us at night. I could see the hatred in some of there eyes, so there is a fair possibility as most were ex conscripts.

But isn't that the point Afghan? Genuinely liberating armies are welcomed in the countries they become involved in but we're a small country in the North Atlantic that repeatedly keeps poking its nose into affairs that are taking place thousands of miles away. Our interest is political/financial rather than humanitarian and although I don't blame the majority of our actual soldiers, our actions have actually only led to the resentment you describe and ultimately put the UK mor

[roger_ramjet]

You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requested by a sovereign state from its ally, but the continuance of that war into an act of invasion into another country is no more defensible than the original incursion. All it does is exacerbate that that we find repellent, Arundel

[Arundelred]

[quote="roger_ramjet"]You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requested by a sovereign state from its ally, but the continuance of that war into an act of invasion into another country is no more defensible than the original incursion. All it does is exacerbate that that we find repelle

[roger_ramjet]

OK I retract the unfounded suggestion that you were talking sense!!

[alfinyalcabo]

Can we all agree on one thing..?

Tony Blair and George Bush senior should be tried for war crimes.

[AfghanRam]

[quote="roger_ramjet"]You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requested by a sovereign state from its ally, but the continuance of that war into an act of invasion into another country is no more defensible than the original incursion. All it does is exacerbate that that we find repelle

[Arundelred]

[quote="AfghanRam"]You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requested by a sovereign state from its ally, but the continuance of that war into an act of invasion into another country is no more defensible than the original incursion. All it

[Arundelred]

OK I retract the unfounded suggestion that you were talking sense!!

Spoken like a true accountant who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.XD

[Arundelred]

Can we all agree on one thing..?

Tony Blair and George Bush senior should be tried for war crimes.

Why them ? They never killed anyone. Like Adolf Eichmann it is those who followed ORDERS who should be tried, without whom no conflict would ever be possible. According to the Nuremburg War Trials obedience to orders is not an excuse.

[AfghanRam]

[quote="Arundelred"]You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requested by a sovereign state from its ally, but the continuance of that war into an act of invasion into another country is no more def

[Arundelred]

[quote="AfghanRam"]You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requested by a sovereign state from its ally, but the continuance of that war into an act of

[AnagRam]

Christ...I wish you two would give it a rest...and to suggest that the 'foot soldiers' are more responsible than those who give the orders is just completely facile, Arundel

[AfghanRam]

[quote="Arundelred"]You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requested by a sovereign state from its ally, bu

[Arundelred]

[quote="AfghanRam"]You dont often talk sense Arundel but in this case I applaud you. However in making your point you also by inference would appear therefore to justify the US et al reactoive strikes. This is the problem that one wrong seems to legitimise subsequent wrongs.

I also fail to see any distinction between so called "legal" and "illegal" wars. How can any war be "legal"? How can its legaility under one country's legal code make any difference. War is never justified except as a defensive reaction to the aggression of another. Thus one could argue WW2 was justifiable as regards England but not as regards Germany etc etc.

The removal of ****q from Kuwait might thus be a justifiable action (not necessarily legal) if requ

[AfghanRam]

Old habits die hard ;-)

[Arundelred]

Christ...I wish you two would give it a rest...and to suggest that the 'foot soldiers' are more responsible than those who give the orders is just completely facile, Arundel

Until someone can prove to me how those who give orders can achieve their aims without a compliant military, I will not give it a rest. I don't how many Hitler killed in WW1 when he was a lowly corporal, but he definitely did not in WW2. That was left to supposedly sane Germans who descendants today are not much different from most Europeans.

[Arundelred]

Old habits die hard ;-)

Sounds like you're trying wind down the debate. ;D

[Acido]

Id like to book a wake up call. Somebody wake me up when this is over :O

[Arundelred]

Id like to book a wake up call. Somebody wake me up when this is over :O

Ask Afgoon to sound Reveille. He likes to blow his own trumpet.:)

[Acido]

Glad you all thought that was an amusing comment by me, tahh :D

[AnagRam]

Arundel, do you know how bitter and childish you sound? Have a read back.

Not trying to continue this but your argument that those who carry out orders are more culpable than those who give them is simply absurd.
There are invariably mitigating circumstances for those who follow orders.
To cite a football context, were the people who followed orders to open the gates at Hillsborough more responsible for what happened than the ones who gave the order? Of course not...they ultimately did the deed, others, with much more of an overview, gave the order and that is where ultimate responsibility lies.
Returning to your example of the Germans during WWII...the German army was made up of conscripts...to stand up to Hitler was to defy the Gestapo who would come knocking on the door for anyone who considered such defiance. In addition to that level of fear they were also confronted by all the propaganda of the Nazi party at a time when Hitler and the Nazis had created a situation where Ge

[lazaat]

Arundelred and Afghan you have both made your point so give it a rest and do us all a favour please? :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

[Arundelred]

[quote="AnagRam"]Arundel, do you know how bitter and childish you sound? Have a read back.

Not trying to continue this but your argument that those who carry out orders are more culpable than those who give them is simply absurd.
There are invariably mitigating circumstances for those who follow orders.
To cite a football context, were the people who followed orders to open the gates at Hillsborough more responsible for what happened than the ones who gave the order? Of course not...they ultimately did the deed, others, with much more of an overview, gave the order and that is where ultimate responsibility lies.
Returning to your example of the Germans during WWII...the German army was made up of conscripts...to stand up to Hitler was to defy the Gestapo who would come knocking on the door for anyone who considered such defiance. In addition to that level of fear they were also confronted by all the propaganda of the Nazi party at a time when Hitler and

[Arundelred]

Arundelred and Afghan you have both made your point so give it a rest and do us all a favour please? :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Sorry, I typed another at the same time as you did yours, ;D I just hope that Tomorrow has not been cancelled due lack of interest.:(

[AnagRam]

Arundel...what I'd have done and what I might like to think I'd have done are two very different things. Maybe you are made of much 'sterner stuff' or perhaps just delusional as regards how brave you'd have been in the face of the Nazi 'machine'.
Your complete inability to ever accept you might not be entirely right and your attitude to Afghan, who I may not often agree with but at least respect as knowing rather more about recent conflicts than I do, is anything but 'Gandhi-esque'. I honestly see little point in carrying this further. Debating with you is an excercise in futility and your insistence on calling and taking cheap shots at Afghan has just become tedious in the extreme.

Besides, Acido wants a laugh...I'd have thought he had plenty of those watching Barnsley ;-)...but...well let's just move on.

[Arundelred]

Arundel...what I'd have done and what I might like to think I'd have done are two very different things. Maybe you are made of much 'sterner stuff' or perhaps just delusional as regards how brave you'd have been in the face of the Nazi 'machine'.
Your complete inability to ever accept you might not be entirely right and your attitude to Afghan, who I may not often agree with but at least respect as knowing rather more about recent conflicts than I do, is anything but 'Gandhi-esque'. I honestly see little point in carrying this further. Debating with you is an excercise in futility and your insistence on calling and taking cheap shots at Afghan has just become tedious in the extreme.

Besides, Acido wants a laugh...I'd have thought he had plenty of those watching Barnsley ;-)...but...well let's just move on.

I would dearly love to respond to all that crap you have just said, but Lazaart has called time on this thread. Being

[roger_ramjet]

Arundel - I dont think time has been called on this thread but rather your involvement in it. I could carry on the original topic but its actually rather tedious as subjects go. It might be fun though seeing ascyour hands are tied!

[roger_ramjet]

But allow me one ebservation. "IS kill Christians": so what. US/Russian/French/Britsh kill Moslems. Where is the difference. Fortunes of war - and this is war in all respects bar declaration. Civilians are inevitable victims thereof. Theres no news here - move on.

[Arundelred]

Arundel - I dont think time has been called on this thread but rather your involvement in it. I could carry on the original topic but its actually rather tedious as subjects go. It might be fun though seeing ascyour hands are tied!

Sorry, but Lazaart does mention Afgoon as well. Carry on by all means. I hope you don't mind if I take a few notes for future use.:)

[Acido]

Besides, Acido wants a laugh...I'd have thought he had plenty of those watching Barnsley ;-)...but...well let's just move on.

Its even more funny seeing all the whingeing home fans on Direby mad ;D

[AfghanRam]

Its down to the opression and dictatorship rule as much the football!

[Acido]

Yeah right, that old chestnut again eh ;D