Steve Davis and the Myth of the Smallest Budget

[thnhouse]

Steve in the Sentinel "we have 14 players out of contract, we finished in the end where the budget put us", what he blatantly seems to be missing is that although you get a small budget at Crewe you're also gifted some incredibly talented youngsters and it's his job to develop them and use them effectively.

Too many loans, too little youth development, terrible signings, personal fallouts with players, undisciplined off the pitch, poor quality on it. I'm not suprised he won't walk , another job won't be easy to find with that CV.

[itwasin]

SD has given the so called incredible youngsters plenty of chances,thats one reason the club is going down to lge 2 so not so Incredible as you make out,its DG job to make sure there ready for the 1st team not throwing them in just because its the Academy. How many outside ****s has the club brought in through the season! Why! Not ready.

[ALEXKNOWALL]

Don't usually comment when "itwasin" is posting but the point re Academy lads and other signings is interesting

....truth is we have one or two relatively solid academy products - Turton, Davis, ray, Jones etc and some with ability such as Ainley, Cooper, Kirk, Wintle,

....but the key to our squad at whatever level is the 4 or 5 more senior pros the club invests in - Fox, Haber, Atkinson, LDV, Nugent, Bakayogo, Bingham

we needed a bit of fight and goals but SD has made poor signings and has borrowed some poor players this season (Hitchcock, Kingsley and the lad from Liverpool who simply sat on the bench)

Next season key signings are even more important as emergency loans will not be an option

[Timmy58]

Kingsley wasn't a poor signing! And that is a fact. Hitchcock is a terrible signing. One that the manager was to some extent forced into due to the unfortunate injury to Seagers who did not look a poor signing. The lad from Liverpool was not one we sought. We took him as a favour to Liverpool and their unders manager. If it hadn't been for King's goals, he would have looked a poor signing but without his goals we would have been in even more trouble. If memory serves, Wintle was one we brought in from lower league football, but the rest are as you say decent performers and need a bit of experience around them although I would suggest that Harry Davis counts as an experienced player now.

[chinaalex]

Now that we are down, can we not send Hitchcock back as there is no 'need' for him ?. Surely it will save the club some money ?

[David_De_ Garratt]

At the risk of trying to sound a little optimistic looking into next season, there are certainly prospects on the fringes of the first team who I fully expect to flourish... Callum Ainley in particular has caught my attention and I believe he along with the likes of Ryan Wintle, George Cooper and Perry NG will all benefit from more regular game time.

The problem as AlexKnowAll rightly pointed out, is the recruitment of the pro's who have lacked any real passion or character to help drive and motivate the younger players who will be inconsistent throughout the season. In Ryan Lowe's brief return, he helped rejuvenate and restore passion and was instrumental in picking up points in November and it wasn't any coincidence that Marcus Haber discovered from watching Lowe he could close down defenders by running. Bakayogo is another who's showed desire and in all honesty has been Davis's best signing this season which speaks volumes since he's only been playing the last 2 months.

[PAULCAFC]

Rochdale, Walsall ,Burton etc all built teams to compete at this level, all small clubs but a determination to succeed, Rochdale have never been in trouble since coming up, gates of sub 3000? laughable!

[Gobstopper]

Its easy to mention clubs like Rochdale, Burton and Walsall all clubs who despite there support base have a bigger budget than ourselves and that is a fact, we can all debate why we have the smallest budget but to call it a myth is a lie. I know people want to put all the blame on the manager and it is easiest to make public comments that are blatantly untrue, such as the smallest budget is a myth. Easy to say but the figures bare this out and the budget will not be improved next season so difficult times ahead for any manager, I'm not sure why Davis or anyone else would want the job.

The Crewe way since the EPPP is no longer the way and the Board of Directors need to realise this, there is not a huge base of talent coming through the academy, there are players coming through but are they good enough. We don't attract the best of the bunch anymore and the days of finding an Ashton, Westwood, Murphy or Powell are long gone. We could pick up youngsters released by premier academies w

[thnhouse]

I've heard that "the days of finding another .... are long gone" every time there's not one in the team for the past 15 years, yet there's always been another.
The reason the budget thing is a myth, and that it's a poor excuse to use, is because a large amount of his first team squad are on youth team wages, and it's his job to develop them into quality first team players. The fact of it is at least 2 of the youth players he failed with are now flourishing elsewhere. he wastes so much of the budget on loans it makes the team inconsistent and stifles our own players growth. The budget might be small but the myth is that it's an acceptable excuse.

[Furberstreet]

It is a fact that the Club is always producing players capable of playing first team football in Leagues One or Two. Finding a gem like Powell, Murphy or Westwood is not quite so easy. It may be that some youth team graduates could play higher, but are held back by loan signings and do not realise their potential at Crewe. I am not saying that all loan signings are detrimental to the home-grown players, but Davis has not always been very selective about who he brings in from other clubs. We jettisoned all of the loan players except for a forward. Lowe was an excellent signing and could be valuable for us in League Two, but Hitchcock has been a waste of space and should have been sent back to his club well before now.

[bigroof]

[quote="thnhouse" every time there's not one in the team for the past 15 years, yet there's always been another.
The reason the budget thing is a myth, and that it's a poor excuse to use, is because a large amount of his first team squad are on youth team wages, and it's his job to develop them into quality first team players. The fact of it is at least 2 of the youth players he failed with are now flourishing elsewhere. he wastes so much of the budget on loans it makes the team inconsistent and stifles our own players growth. The budget might be small but the myth is that it's an acceptable excuse.
[/quote]

I agree with your key point, thnhouse, but maybe it's not that easy to blood the youngsters? Which two former youths are you referring to? I think with decisions on releasing young players, as well as taking on loan players, it's a case of "you win some, you lose some". Has Davis done a

[alexbarmy]

[quote="thnhouse" every time there's not one in the team for the past 15 years, yet there's always been another.
The reason the budget thing is a myth, and that it's a poor excuse to use, is because a large amount of his first team squad are on youth team wages, and it's his job to develop them into quality first team players. The fact of it is at least 2 of the youth players he failed with are now flourishing elsewhere. he wastes so much of the budget on loans it makes the team inconsistent and stifles our own players growth. The budget might be small but the myth is that it's an acceptable excuse.
[/quote]

Name the 2 then.

If it's Waters and AJ, you are in a dream land. Flourishing would certainly be over egging it for those 2.

[thnhouse]

Then Dream Land I'm in!
Waters has hit double figures and 30 appearances for a team running away with the conference and AJ has been a key player for a team near the playoffs in a league we're plummeting out of. I'll give you over egging it might be a little fair, but it would also be more than fair to say Waters didn't get his chance here as much as Saunders, Cooper and Baillie aren't now. It'd also be fair to say that Vadaine and Mellor would be doing a better job than Turton and Haber.

I'd also agree that THIS season Davis is also giving youth more of a chance, but from his constant grumblings over budget and being allowed only 1 loan I'd wager that's more through lack of backing than his choice. As I've said many times before I'm not against loaning in players, I'm just against loaning in other teams prospect players when we've got talent coming through. One thing Dario was always good at was finding space in a team for players to develop and he gave them the time to do it. D

[Timmy58]

Waters was a regular starter for Cheltenham early in the season and scoring regularly. Has spent time warming the bench recently and doesn't seem to be finding the net on the same regular basis. As for Ajay, I am not sure many saw him as a prolific goal scorer and he had ample opportunity both under Davis and also previous managers. The fact that he has score 11 for the Vale this season is a credit to him, but again, hardly prolific. Oliver I think would have been worth another season and we all know how well Mellor played when he broke into the side but he fell away badly and we will see how good he is next season assuming Plymouth achieve promotion. We can ponder the merits of every player who has left the club over the last however many years but to use it as a stick to beat the current manager is as ridiculous as lambasting the manager who let Clayton Donaldson go. And lest we forget, he had one very good season where he missed more chances than he took and that season was preceded

[thnhouse]

I'm not using the fact that they left to beat the manager with, it's always going to happen that some players leave and do well and some drop away. I'm pointing out that these are all players that at one point showed an awful lot of promise at Crewe and Davis failed to develop them, which is what you have to do to be a successful Crewe Manager.

You could easily add Inman, Cooper, Saunders, Turton, Bailee, West, Atkinson, Clayton and maybe Nolan to that list and the sad thing is only 4 of those 14 can say they were given a lot of first team football to develop (and one of those was shunted out of position)

[bigroof]

I'm not using the fact that they left to beat the manager with, it's always going to happen that some players leave and do well and some drop away. I'm pointing out that these are all players that at one point showed an awful lot of promise at Crewe and Davis failed to develop them, which is what you have to do to be a successful Crewe Manager.

You could easily add Inman, Cooper, Saunders, Turton, Bailee, West, Atkinson, Clayton and maybe Nolan to that list and the sad thing is only 4 of those 14 can say they were given a lot of first team football to develop (and one of those was shunted out of position)

I'm not an apologist for Steve Davis, but I think it's harder to develop players at League One, whilst trying to maintain League One status. If he's in place next season it'll be interesting to see how he uses our better young talents. It's not too late for Saunders & Cooper (from your list). Inman's such a diffident character,

[alexbarmy]

Waters has been well covered by others but if AJ has been such a success why has he still not been offered a contract by Vale.

[Nexus_6_Replicant]

Can't recall any tears being shed when AJ was released at the time. Nobody was complaining either when he failed to pull up any trees at Yeovil - let's remember it's been two seasons since he left Crewe. Don't recall Waters release generating anything more than a tiny puddle of surprise, and he's scored a few goals for a Conference side - but also starts a lot of games on the subs bench. Is that what we want at Crewe then - Conference substitutes?

The point being, of course, that when it suits fans create their own myths. Bit like the suggestion that Davis hasn't helped out the youngsters any, despite the fact that he has consistently throughout his tenure dished out plenty of opportunities to Academy graduates - a fact grudgingly admitted, but casually dismissed as "more through lack of backing than his choice". There's plenty of areas to cry foul with SD but it only makes sense when sticking with the facts - this particular notion is perverse.

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Not a fan of Davis at all but Waters and Ajay were nowhere near good enough for the squad and he made the right call releasing both of them. Believe Ajay only scored 2 league goals for us in his final season and looked unfit and off the pace. He's doing well at Port Vale but remember, all players can have a purple patch, just like when Shaun Miller got 19 goals in a season for us alongside Donaldson before going off the boil.

[thnhouse]

I'd say it's more perverse that in his 4 years of management the only youth players that he's developed into good first team players are Jones, Colclough and Garrett.

Powell, Westwood, Murphy, Davis were all given to him ready made.

There's a big difference between being forced to play youngsters and developing them. That's where he's failed

[RedandWhiteSpartan]

There's plenty of areas to cry foul with SD but it only makes sense when sticking with the facts - this particular notion is perverse.

Billy Waters was not spoken to when he was dropped from the first team, he got more support from Granty than from the Manager. He apparently had more coaching in his first month at Cheltenham, than in the whole of the time in the first team at Crewe....now that's perverse!

People seem to make a lot of the fact that Cheltenham are in the Conference.....which league do you think they will be in next season? ......yea that's right the same one as us. If Davis is still in charge I'll wager they'll also take 6 points from us, with Billy almost guaranteed to score, even if it's coming from the bench!

[Nexus_6_Replicant]

Billy Waters was not spoken to when he was dropped from the first team, he got more support from Granty than from the Manager. He apparently had more coaching in his first month at Cheltenham, than in the whole of the time in the first team at Crewe....now that's perverse! All hearsay, much like the hearsay that Waters was very bitter that he wasn't kept on at the club.


People seem to make a lot of the fact that Cheltenham are in the Conference..... Not at all. The point is that we some are claiming he could've made a difference to us this season in LEAGUE ONE. If he struggles to regularly start a game in the Conference, Champions of that League or not, it's a pretty redundant claim. The Gloucestershire Echo today listed 10 games that shaped Cheltenham's promotion - of those 10 games, Waters only started one of them.

[thnhouse]

Davis is apparently watching Swansea U21's to find a player for next season......
So we'll have another season on developing someone else's youth player. When will he learn.

Surely the money would be better spent on attracting an experienced pro in an area we need it.

[RedandWhiteSpartan]

Nexus not hearsay at all, you forget Billy is a local lad,..... but the point is that Davis, amongst his many faults, is not very good at developing our youngsters. Name one of our youngsters that he has brought on?....and that is perverse as we are Crewe Alex.

I'm sure Billy, who has scored goals in League One, (something we have struggled with all season) will make his point next year.

[alexbarmy]

Nexus not hearsay at all, you forget Billy is a local lad,..... but the point is that Davis, amongst his many faults, is not very good at developing our youngsters. Name one of our youngsters that he has brought on?....and that is perverse as we are Crewe Alex.

I'm sure Billy, who has scored goals in League One, (something we have struggled with all season) will make his point next year.

If Billy is so good, why has he started only 17 games at Conference level - and played 90 minutes 7 times only. The fact that he has been a bench warmer means he has not been injured so he has proved nothing - if anything it proves Steve Davis right.

Generally though, he doesn't seem to improve players, I agree. Probably his biggest coup this season was signing Colclough when all around him told him to get rid. Lucky that he stood his ground on this one.

[Timmy58]

It is all too easy to point at this player and that player and say we should have kept them because they are flourishing now. The reality is, hindsight is a wonderful thing and in this case it really is because the manager has been proved right not to keep the players concerned. No on was jumping up and down pleading to keep Waters or Ajay. The signing of Colclough was a masterstroke when as you say, many (including me) were suggesting that we should let him go as he was not worth the hassle. Again, the manager was proved right and he was duly sold in what can only be described as a good bit of business. Not sure of the exact terms of the deal, but he was an unproved player with a history of injuries, off field problems and in my book that was a good sale, not least because the lad was promised a move if someone came in for him. I am sure he won't be the last sale from our Academy production line.
Whether Davis improves players or not I guess is open to debate. The coaching staff

[Furberstreet]

It is important that, when the youngsters brought into the first team and then dropped to the bench/not selected at all, the Manager and coaches ensure that the reasons for non-selection are made clearly and constructively to them. Hopefully, this has happened with Perry Ng - to highlight one recent non-selection. Confidence is a big part of performance.

[AstonAlex]

I do not believe that Steve has a good record of developing our own young players, although to be fair he has played a lot of them! A lot of print has been taken up with Ajay and Waters, but I would ask about Baillie and Mellor.

Dario had a habit of giving Academy graduates several runs of games to ensure they had enough chances to prove their worth (eg Rob Edwards, Kevin Street, Mark Rivers, Ben Rix), some of whom made it, some didn't, but they got more than one chance. James Baillie looked a fine prospect at the start of last season and lost his form after being given a forearm smash against MK Dons - he hasn't been seen since. Kelvin Mellor looked a good prospect at RB or CH (or even LB at times) and was released, only to become an integral part of Plymouth's promotion chasing side, playing 75 plus matches over 2 seasons. Both of these players (and Waters, Ajay, Clayton and others) have been the victims of constantly being played out of position, amongst other complaints I

[itwasin]

Another season of experiments in Lge 2 and you will end up in the Conference very quick

[Timmy58]

And in that sentence, the revelation that itwasin is not a Crewe Alexandra supporter, just someone who likes to stir the pot!

[Furberstreet]

I doubt that experiments will be the focus next season. Playing a solid core around which the younger players can gain experience and hopefully thrive should be the priority. As for relegation to the Conference, I would hope we can stabilize and finish comfortably in mid-table. I do not see a quick return next season to League One as a serious proposition. I would want to see a team promoted that looked capable of staying up, and that could take a few seasons to create whoever is the manager.

There has been a lot of chat on this site about whether particular players should/should not have been released. The one player release that continues to niggle me is Andy White. I have seen a few posts suggesting we should look again at him. How is he playing for Nantwich? Does he stand out sufficiently to confirm that he could make the step back to League football? We are crying out for a decent left back and, for all Guthrie's efforts in that position, I want to see a genuine and de

[bigroof]

I was always a fan of Andy White's; couldn't understand how he could be discarded in favour of Robertson. Another poster suggested he'd had a poor injury record; but I'm not sure it was that bad, and in any case Crewe are usually sympathetic over that kind of thing and at least offer six months for a player to prove himself. I haven't seen him for Nantwich, but others have been impressed. He's been fit whilst there.
Earlier in the season, I watched an under 21 match, where we had a triallist at left-back. He played for Barwell, in the division as Andy White and Nantwich; he wasn't anywhere near as good as I recall Andy White being for our reserves, in the season before the under 21 fixtures began.
Harry Pickering, who has just been given a contract, at the end of his first year's scholarship, has been playing left-back at times for the under 21's and under 18's; he's a versatile performer who may well be ready for the first team in the next year.

[itwasin]

Its Reality Timmy something you miss out on, DG tried it look what happened to him? Remember!!
One bad season its Extermination to the Conference would you back C.A not to have one! having just had 3 on the bounce! REALITY ! Not dreaming like some.

[Furberstreet]

There is a fine line between pointing out uncomfortable truths and simply being provocative to wind people up.

[itwasin]

So its uncomfortable for you,better to face it now and do something about it! i wonder if the club have a plan "B" in case!! or will it be a case of plan ZZZzzzzzzzzz as we saw in Lge One just now.
dont forget uncomfortable as it may be C.A. have been the most sucessfull club at coming bottom than any other team in all leagues,yes Uncomfortable,its my opinion only but the longer C.A. are in lge 2 the more likely it will be bad news for the club,as it will happen as the past shows.I mean do you really think they will want to get Promoted again having just gave up with a wimp to stay in the Lge 1.?????

[AstonAlex]

If anyone can translate the last post, please could they help . or, then again, not bother . . . . .

[Timmy58]

If anyone can translate the last post, please could they help . or, then again, not bother . . . . .
I think it said "blah blah blah blah.

[Furberstreet]

Does East Stirlingshire in Scottish League Two have a worse record of finishing bottom of their league than Crewe's record of seeking re-election or actually finishing bottom of the old Division Four? Just thought I would ask.

[itwasin]

Timmy Mallat nothing to do and all day to do it in.

[AstonAlex]

According to that fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia, the Alex sought re-election 10 times in either Division 3 North or Division 4 (no idea how many times we were rock bottom, but the record is held by Hartlepool with 14 attempts).

As for East Stirlingshire, they finished bottom for 5 seasons in a row in the early part of this century . . but have also been promoted to the top tier in Scotland in their history, so I reckon they are worse than us, but have been better as well!!!

[Timmy58]

Timmy Mallat nothing to do and all day to do it in.
C U Next Tuesday