Indy Mk II

[Stupie82]

Even though the dust hasn't settled on the EU Ref, Nicola is already pledging a second referendum in 2 years time. So whats your thoughts? would you vote differently this time or the same, does what happened last night change your mind at all?

Heres where i stand.

Voted Yes in indy ref.
Voted Out Last night.
Indy Ref 2 ... still undecided... depends if there is another EU ref separate for Scotland or not.

Im all for democracy, so to vote 'No' in the indy ref was the voice of people and again last night, it was the voice of the people. Because we had voted to remain in the UK, the outcome of last nights referendum effected everyone. Thats what happens in a democratic union and those who voted no in 2014 indy ref, cant complain about last nights result going against the Scottish vote.

[Brian Grantland]

it'll be 60:40 or more to leave the UK

Nicola Sturgeon says EU result is "democratically unacceptable" for Scots and represents "a material change" for Scotland in the UK.

And she's not wrong.

[Stupie82]

it'll be 60:40 or more to leave the UK

Nicola Sturgeon says EU result is "democratically unacceptable" for Scots and represents "a material change" for Scotland in the UK.

And she's not wrong.

That said, do you agree that because we voted to remain in the UK, that we have to accept that this was a UK decision and Scotlands vote is only part of the overall decision? Like i said, i was an "YES" indy voter, but we reap what we sow. We, as in Scotland, chose to stay part of a democratic union and as such, we make decisions like these as a union, therefore nullifying any form of supposed separation on this vote.

[Skacel]

I have no desire for indie ref #2. Especially one that is to leave the UK and join the EU. Fvck that.

[Stupie82]

I have no desire for indie ref #2. Especially one that is to leave the UK and join the EU. Fvck that.

This is how I am feeling at the moment. Im feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place, with the SNP wanting indy and the EU membership. Thing is, i dont want the EU membership, but i originally voted for Indy, so its a difficult one.

[AberdeenArnold]

Indyref2 will happen, no doubt it and this time Scotland will gain it's independence

Cameron wants out the door as he can see that this is obvious.

[Pacman1903]

Last night couldnt have been any better for that beaut Sturgeon. Its pretty much got independence for her. Which was inevitable.

[Mason89]

I liked the picture sneckie painted regarding a slim remain majority. I think that would've helped the independence movement more than a Brexit. It would've also been hilarious.

[Brian Grantland]

That said, do you agree that because we voted to remain in the UK, that we have to accept that this was a UK decision and Scotlands vote is only part of the overall decision? Like i said, i was an "YES" indy voter, but we reap what we sow. We, as in Scotland, chose to stay part of a democratic union and as such, we make decisions like these as a union, therefore nullifying any form of supposed separation on this vote.

You abide by the democratic will of the people.
100%

But what this has done is hand the Krankie everything she needs to call a second indyref and win, a lot of no votes in 14 would have been because they wanted to stay in the EU (which was in no way guaranteed under independence) now, well they are being pulled out so it will change votes.
Might change a few the other way but not many.
The vote in Scotland last night would essentially the way a second indyref would get at a minimum.

[ForestHills]

I voted Yes for the last Indy ref but people are getting carried away this time thinking its a stick on.

The situation has now changed a lot and most of the people saying they will vote Yes this time around will soon change their opinions once the options start to come clear.

Last time: Scotlands largest export market (England) would have also been in the EU this time we are actually voting to separate from that completely. My company sells mostly to England like a majority of Scottish companies.

Also We could have pegged to the £ in the past so not as to have to take the awful Euro - if we want into the EU this time its Euro or nothing. The Euro is a disaster and on top of that will only survive with a financial and political European Union. This is why Spain and Greece are stuck with 50% youth unemployment..they dont have the tools to change things like Iceland did after the banking crisis.

Basically wed swapping being partially run by Westminster & Edinburgh to an almost fake Scottish parliament with Brussels/Euro bank in the driving seat (Basically Germany). This is the plan - which is why this Brexit was always going to happen sooner or later. It will be interesting to see if they still try and force it on the current EU countries.

If things play out as I expect I will probably vote No this time. Id rather have lots of power in Edinburgh overseen by Westminster with free trade with our biggest customer than a tiny % of a European superstate.

Also other positives out of this are we will get more Trade Deals with other Countries than the EU has. The French for example continually veto the deals to protect their farmers etc - like the US deal. Trying to get 27 countries to agree a deal with an potential trade partner is impossible.

Its not all bad but it could be a rocky few months/years. I dont feel jumping back into the EU in its current form is a good idea tho.

My ideal scenario is the EU come to the UK with some revised options and a 2nd EU vote is taken but the EU is like my Ex-wife - they dont negotiate on their grand plan - and its what will be their downfall. We got out early I think.

[Jupiter]

There won't be another indy ref, if Mrs Krankie lost she would be finished. Anyway if Scotland did vote for independence it wouldn't be in the EU anyway. No way countries like Spain would let us in because that would encourage independence for Catalunya.

Also Mrs Krankie still can't tell us what currency we would use after independence.

I voted No to indepenedence and out yesterday

[Rochead]

That woman and her side kicks have only one aim in life and that is to break up the UK. Yesterday's vote was an all UK vote, the Nationalist leaders have hijacked the result for their own self-centred political aims. Shame on them for totally ignoring the democratic decision of the Nation at the Indy Ref, a referendum they called for and lost. They should get it into their thick skulls that they were elected to run the country, not to break it up.
Election results are meaningless to them unless it goes their way. Democratic Party? I don't think so.

[Mason89]

That woman and her side kicks have only one aim in life and that is to break up the UK.

There's a clue in the name of her Party. I think there's a better argument for a referendum now than before. As a champion of democracy, surely you'd welcome one?

[Aldo1983]

There's a clue in the name of her Party.

It's the reason they exist. You'd think people would stop getting annoyed by that after all this time.

[Rochead]

[QUOTE=Mason89;38177947]There's a clue in the name of her Party. I think there's a better argument for a referendum now than before. As a champion of democracy, surely you'd welcome one?

The question was asked in 2014 and the answer given as per democracy, Yesterday's question was asked off the whole of the UK and the answer given as per democracy.
there is no reason for another vote, we voted to remain in the UK, Yesterday was a question for the UK as a whole.

[Rochead]

[QUOTE=Aldo1983;38177951]It's the reason they exist. You'd think people would stop getting annoyed by that after all this time.[/QUOTE

They asked the question and were given an answer, later generations may think differently.

I just want them to do what they were elected to do and that is to manage the country.

[Mason89]

The situations changed since 2014. If the referendums were the other way about, do you think it might've gone differently?

[Rochead]

The situations changed since 2014. If the referendums were the other way about, do you think it might've gone differently?

I can't say with any certainty. With the benifit of hindsight we know that a lot of discussion was opened up regarding the euro, good or bad, would the Bank of England become the lender of last resort, that looked unlikely. Assuming we did not have that info at hand and we were going into a referendum on the back of the Euro result, those subjects would open up and a lot of claims and counterclaims would surface, then of course all the other arguments would surface. If I had to come down one way or another and only knowing how things went first time I think the result would be the same.
Although I was always a no voter my resolve hardened with the knowledge that the Yes side had absolutely no idea what was happening regarding currency.

[Barnared]

Today was a very good day.

[AberdeenArnold]

Today was a very good day.

For Nigel Farage and Glastonbury maybe ;D

Most of Scotland will view this as a terrible day but it will be seen as a pivotal moment in years to come.

[scobiemacd]

Soon we'll be able to go to the shops again and ask for 2oz of Kola Kubes.

Fu.ck Europe right in the *****.

[Getintaethem]

I think we can discount some (or a lot of things) that were said yesterday. Passions were high and many people were positioning themselves politically, grandstanding, talking to their bases, opportunism... the whole lot. That was both in the UK and the EU. The News output was a joke yesterday. It is understandable but remember we will now have time to Leave and passions fade over time.

Instead of this, we should have people from all sides coming together to get a plan in the best interests of the UK. The people want that. The biggest risk is the politicians.

The politicians on the whole do not have a clue about the EU. They are misinformed, ignorant and the arguments put forward by both sides were terrible. We did not get any discussion around what Leave or for that matter Remain actually would mean moving forward. The level of ignorance from politicians and the media is palpable. This 2 year negotiation is a myth. It can last as long as both parties wish it to last - that is one of the easier changes. Sturgeon made an economic case for remaining in the EU yesterday. This is fine but this is a political union as much as an economic union. What if we were able to get the economic benefits without the political union?

So what does Leave mean? On one extreme it could mean we do no trade with the EU and on the other extreme it could mean we accept something not much different to what we have now. Obviously neither of these will happen.

I believe what should happen is we use the framework on the Norwegian model. One benefit of this is that we do not have time to make a whole new trade agreement with the EU and we don't have to start from scratch anyway.

We already have the full aquis (the body of EU law) in our law so it is easier to follow the Norway/EFTA model. With regard to future change, we can repeal unwanted parts of the aquis (or make it specific to EU trade) but we won't want to repeal everything and we won't have the capacity to do so in 2 years. Norway/EFTA is a first step. The EU social stuff can just be repealed as it isn't about trade. (this is the stuff that stops us from deporting criminals)

A common complaint with regards to the Norway model is that it means you need to take the regulation from the EU without having a say. However, this is a misunderstanding on the whole. Our agreement with the EU will be around trade in the common market. The main power in trade now is in the global bodies not the EU. The EU lost its power about 10-20 years ago. So for vehicle standards for example, we do this at UNECE where Norway has a seat. In the EU, the EU represents us at UNECE, negotiates with the other states, gets agreement then makes a directive then we implement this in UK law. If we leave the EU and go Norway/EFTA, we get to go and actually negotiate at UNECE and then implement the decision - we get to actually have a say and cut out the middleman.

So with this model we could have a non contributory access to the common market, our own migration laws, a non-exclusive trade deal so we could get new trade deals with the USA, China, Korea etc., a repeal of the social aquis and a declaration of supremacy of UK law. i.e. something that the vast majority of people would want and would support in this country.

We also avoid financial Armageddon and WWIII.

[TheDeeDon]

One of the reasons I was so pissed off with the SNP during the EU debate was that they should have had an open vote within the party instead of using it for their political means, this should have been an open vote with party politics left to one side and I know it's easier said than done. I think the the fact that in Scotland only 69% of the voters chose to vote on Thursday was a bit worrying and may suggest that a win in any forthcoming referendum is not a foregone conclusion.

That said, we were clearly told back in 2014, that to stay in the Europe we had to stay in the UK, so that would have influenced a lot of people to remain part of the UK, so Sturgeon is correct when she pointed out a material change in circumstances. I would certainly hope people remember the outright lies of 2014 to keep us in the union and would be interesting to see how Westminster campaigns for the remain side. If we do have another referendum up here I can see Labour going for the break with the UK.

Have to admit to thinking Sturgeon was head and shoulders above any politician who gave interviews yesterday.

[Brian Grantland]

So politicians know nothing about the EU but you're an expert...the same Norway Model their Prime Minister said we wouldn't like - that Norway model, the one it costs a country to access the EEA but you don't have a say, that Norway model.

[Aldo1983]

It's not a forgone conclusion but with a demoralised Tory and Labour party, lots of lies being exposed and coming out of the EU then now would be the best time if they want a win. It would be a very different campaign and hopefully a much bigger margin to finally put it to bed either way.

[Barnared]

For Nigel Farage and Glastonbury maybe ;D

Most of Scotland will view this as a terrible day but it will be seen as a pivotal moment in years to come.

It will be seen as a good, good day for Scotland

[Mason89]

The economic arguments don't interest me in the slightest. I watched the folk getting interviewed in Burnley & Hartlepool yesterday & I have absolutely nothing in common with them. I'm also completely bored of these bed wetting old Etonian w@nks calling the shots.

[Getintaethem]

So politicians know nothing about the EU but you're an expert...the same Norway Model their Prime Minister said we wouldn't like - that Norway model, the one it costs a country to access the EEA but you don't have a say, that Norway model.

I am really sorry for trying to add some background to the debate with some stuff that non politicians are saying about the negotiation. I think that the politicians have also been shown to be pretty ignorant on the EU... if nothing else has been shown in this referendum, surely that is.

I will reduce it back to your level though. Just for you... ****s sake min, these remainers are self righteous morons. Happy?

Using the Norway model as the basis is entirely different to using the Norway model. This is a classic example of the ignorance of the politicians and media. For example, I can use an employment contract as the basis of my employment with a company. However, the details that are in the contract are what is important. It could say that I need to work 7 days a week, 70 hours and do night shifts every second day. Would I like that? (given your analogy). Or it could say, I can work whenever I want and get 60 days paid vacation a year. Using the Norway model as a basis is entirely different to agreeing to the terms of their model.

It makes sense to use it as a basis because we already have the EU laws within our own laws. These are all referenced within this model therefore, it cuts down the time to reach agreement. It does not mean we need to stick to the laws that are written into UK law.

[Getintaethem]

Yep, for once I agree with you. We are out of the EU! Great day for Scotland.

[Getintaethem]

That said, we were clearly told back in 2014, that to stay in the Europe we had to stay in the UK, so that would have influenced a lot of people to remain part of the UK, so Sturgeon is correct when she pointed out a material change in circumstances. I would certainly hope people remember the outright lies of 2014 to keep us in the union and would be interesting to see how Westminster campaigns for the remain side. If we do have another referendum up here I can see Labour going for the break with the UK.



I am not sure I understand the argument. I may be misunderstanding. We were told to stay in the EU we needed to stay in the UK. This was because at the time the EU was saying that it was not a foregone conclusion we would be allowed in. Every member state would need to approve it etc. and even if this was a certainty it would take years to approve as we would need to meet their criteria etc. and before that even get it onto the agenda. Now there is disagreement on how long this would take and whether it would be approved but the above still holds true.

The UK has had a referendum, something that was promised by Cameron before the Independence Referendum in Scotland. The people of the UK have voted to leave the EU.

I am not sure who lied?

[Rochead]

Yep, for once I agree with you. We are out of the EU! Great day for Scotland.

Agreed. I appreciate your posts just as I appreciate the posts of people who hold different views, forums like this give us all the chance to exchange opinions, I fail to understand the need for some to be abusive to individuals or groups who happen to hold different views.

[TheDeeDon]

The UK has had a referendum, something that was promised by Cameron before the Independence Referendum in Scotland. The people of the UK have voted to leave the EU.


As you state above, the offer of an EU referendum was on the cards before our poll, so for me they took liberties about us remaining in the EU before our referendum took place, along with many other things, knowing fine well they couldn't predict the result of the EU referendum.

I call it lies, you can call it whatever you want. If Scotland votes to leave, they will let us join at super quick speed. Not a fact by the way, just an opinion.

[Aldo1983]

I am not sure who lied?

The No campaign.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2rw58nq.jpg

You can defend it all you like but bottom line is we all know what they meant by this.

[Redmadders96]

The LEAVE campaign lied and abused there position by saying that the 350million pounds saved from sending to the EU would be used on the NHS...........then Farage admits that's not going to happen live on tv (breakfast tv I think) and then even had the cheek to say yeah it was a bit of a lie using it as one of the main slogans used by the vote OUT campaign


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-nigel-farage-nhs-pledge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html

[Brian Grantland]

cornwall has asked for a guarantee on replacement of eu funds from the 350m a week saving
yorkshire the same

this isn't gonna end well at all

[Brian Grantland]

The No campaign.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2rw58nq.jpg

You can defend it all you like but bottom line is we all know what they meant by this.

was true in 2014.
circumstances have changed obviously
also no guarantee now what happens if scotland goes it alone

[Aldo1983]

was true in 2014.
circumstances have changed obviously
also no guarantee now what happens if scotland goes it alone

Well we voted No back in 2014 as well so circumstances have changed. Bring it on.

[Barnared]

Yep, for once I agree with you. We are out of the EU! Great day for Scotland.

But we aren't, are we?

What is this lie or myth you are peddling XD

[Brian Grantland]

I am really sorry for trying to add some background to the debate with some stuff that non politicians are saying about the negotiation. I think that the politicians have also been shown to be pretty ignorant on the EU... if nothing else has been shown in this referendum, surely that is.

I will reduce it back to your level though. Just for you... ****s sake min, these remainers are self righteous morons. Happy?

Using the Norway model as the basis is entirely different to using the Norway model. This is a classic example of the ignorance of the politicians and media. For example, I can use an employment contract as the basis of my employment with a company. However, the details that are in the contract are what is important. It could say that I need to work 7 days a week, 70 hours and do night shifts every second day. Would I like that? (given your analogy). Or it could say, I can work whenever I want and get 60 days paid vacation a year. Using the Norway model as a basis is entirely different to agreeing to the terms of their model.

It makes sense to use it as a basis because we already have the EU laws within our own laws. These are all referenced within this model therefore, it cuts down the time to reach agreement. It does not mean we need to stick to the laws that are written into UK law.

So you think we're going to negotiate a better deal than the Norwegians have? Are you Donald Trump?

Point 1 of any negotiation of accessing the EEA will be...free movement of labour, so you and your leave pals that want less immigration are already behind the 8 ball.
The Norwegian Prime Minister, who of course must be dismissed as having knowledge, says being on the outside but adhering to the rules is rubbish as all you can do is lobby.

Oh and that is before you consider the rest of the world that will be dump us way down the list for trade agreements.

And then there are the number of trade negotiators the UK has - 20.
They'll be busy...

[Barnared]

The economic arguments don't interest me in the slightest. I watched the folk getting interviewed in Burnley & Hartlepool yesterday & I have absolutely nothing in common with them. I'm also completely bored of these bed wetting old Etonian w@nks calling the shots.

Good post Mason.

I think that the English are a hateful, violent, bigoted race with a massive superiority complex. I do not associate myself with their breed. I am very proud to be Scottish and I know my neighbours well. I know which ones I prefer.

[Getintaethem]

428

[Aldo1983]

The Mail on Sunday XD

[Brian Grantland]

whore selling her drug mule story

[Mason89]

There's no valid reason for voting No in an independance referendum.

None whatsoever.

[Rochead]

There's no valid reason for voting No in an independance referendum.

None whatsoever.

Having voted no then leave there is no reason for me to change my mind, I understand you feeling passionate about your believes but you have got to realise others will hold different opinions. Some people fail to understand why others can think differently, Trump is the perfect example, many millions see him as the USA's knight in shining armour while others see an idiot.
Simply different opinions.

[TheDeeDon]

428

We haven't had a Mail troll for a while.

[TheDeeDon]

Having voted no then leave there is no reason for me to change my mind, I understand you feeling passionate about your believes but you have got to realise others will hold different opinions. Some people fail to understand why others can think differently, Trump is the perfect example, many millions see him as the USA's knight in shining armour while others see an idiot.
Simply different opinions.

Rochead, do you honestly not think the UK is dead in the water? For me, there is such a divide between Scotland and England now that separation is the only outcome. I think the damage has been done now and cannot be reversed. There will be a new referendum at some point fairly soon and I think you will see the English will not be trying quite so hard to keep us this time around and believe the Labour party will come out is support of separation.

[claw84]

We haven't had a Mail troll for a while.

The EU is a sinking ship, it is holed below the waterline by the Euro.

The UK has launched the lifeboats and Scotland should be in them.

[Sheep On Fire]

The EU will die in the next couple of Years we have just opened the door for the French, Dutch etc to do the same and they will.
Scotland is in a much worse position for Independence than we were 2 Years ago, oil has crashed and will never provide the revenues it has in the past, unemployment is up and the economy is in a poorer place and the population is still ageing more so than most of Europe. Our deficate has got worse, again it is the worst in Europe. The SNPdon't care about any of this as there one and only goal is Independance no matter how they get it. Our trade with the EU is 12 billion, but with the rest of the U.K. It is worth 46 billion

[NEM83]

I voted Yes for the last Indy ref but people are getting carried away this time thinking its a stick on.

The situation has now changed a lot and most of the people saying they will vote Yes this time around will soon change their opinions once the options start to come clear.

Last time: Scotlands largest export market (England) would have also been in the EU this time we are actually voting to separate from that completely. My company sells mostly to England like a majority of Scottish companies.

Also We could have pegged to the £ in the past so not as to have to take the awful Euro - if we want into the EU this time its Euro or nothing. The Euro is a disaster and on top of that will only survive with a financial and political European Union. This is why Spain and Greece are stuck with 50% youth unemployment..they dont have the tools to change things like Iceland did after the banking crisis.

Basically wed swapping being partially run by Westminster & Edinburgh to an almost fake Scottish parliament with Brussels/Euro bank in the driving seat (Basically Germany). This is the plan - which is why this Brexit was always going to happen sooner or later. It will be interesting to see if they still try and force it on the current EU countries.

If things play out as I expect I will probably vote No this time. Id rather have lots of power in Edinburgh overseen by Westminster with free trade with our biggest customer than a tiny % of a European superstate.

Also other positives out of this are we will get more Trade Deals with other Countries than the EU has. The French for example continually veto the deals to protect their farmers etc - like the US deal. Trying to get 27 countries to agree a deal with an potential trade partner is impossible.

Its not all bad but it could be a rocky few months/years. I dont feel jumping back into the EU in its current form is a good idea tho.

My ideal scenario is the EU come to the UK with some revised options and a 2nd EU vote is taken but the EU is like my Ex-wife - they dont negotiate on their grand plan - and its what will be their downfall. We got out early I think.

Nail on the head for me.

Indy referendum with Oil at $50 a barrel and proposing to join the economic basket case that is the Eurozone?

Aye good luck with that

[Pacman1903]

428

Shes a rotter

[Barnared]

428

XD XD

The Mail on Sunday XD XD

I can't believe I was stupid enough to read any of your previous posts.

[elginred]

A bit rich....

[Barnared]

A bit rich....

Not anymore....

[Rochead]

Rochead, do you honestly not think the UK is dead in the water? For me, there is such a divide between Scotland and England now that separation is the only outcome. I think the damage has been done now and cannot be reversed. There will be a new referendum at some point fairly soon and I think you will see the English will not be trying quite so hard to keep us this time around and believe the Labour party will come out is support of separation.

No I don't believe it is. Less than two years ago we decided to remain with the UK. Thursday's vote has certainly given the SNP the chance to start pushing for another Referendum. There is a lot of people seem to think it would be a near certainty, even the daily retard is jumping on the bandwagon but we know they are only chasing sales. If we had Indy Ref 2, the same questions would come up again, who would be the lender of last resort, if not the Bank Of England, would lt be the Euro, bearing in mind that scared the living daylight out off most people in 2014, if the oil industry hasn't recovered and we lose the income given under the Barnett formula, would we be able to keep going as normal. Those and other questions will have to be answered, then and only then can a decision be made, what that decision would be I do not know, I do agree with you that the rest off the UK may not try so hard next time.

Yes there is a lot of turmoil, given time this can be sorted, also we have turmoil in Scotland itself as despite having had our Indy Ref we are banging on about another splitting the country yet again, not that it ever settled down from the last one, our leaders saw to that.

A semi serious question, if a second Ref went for separation, that then would make the score 1-1, would our leaders sanction another to make it the best off 3, only fair.

[Buc]

There's no valid reason for voting No in an independance referendum.

None whatsoever.

Absolutely.

People speak of oil price but oil price is low but it will rise may take another two years but it will rise then what will you lads say then.
What about the Westminster government they have taken us into dept £1-6 trillion by mismanagement..
100bn for replacing trident during the referendum its now £205 bn Westminster calls the shots to waste the money best spent elsewhere .. We will now become independent the quicker the better then we can rid that outdated unelected house of lords who make decisions what do they do other than drink champagne then snooze it off.

There's much more to Scotland than oil ..
Be proud of your country ( Scotland) the UK is on its knees its on life support .

[Jupiter]

It's only 21 months since we had an indy ref, another one would be ridiculous. Mrs Krankie needs to go away and calm down.

[Buc]

I see even the unionist Daily Record/Sunday Mail is coming out in favour of Indy 2

[Mason89]

I see even the unionist Daily Record/Sunday Mail is coming out in favour of Indy 2

Not because they want to. I'd imagine sales haven't recovered since their 'vow' disaster. Still, all help is welcome.

[Rochead]

Absolutely.

People speak of oil price but oil price is low but it will rise may take another two years but it will rise then what will you lads say then.
What about the Westminster government they have taken us into dept £1-6 trillion by mismanagement..
100bn for replacing trident during the referendum its now £205 bn Westminster calls the shots to waste the money best spent elsewhere .. We will now become independent the quicker the better then we can rid that outdated unelected house of lords who make decisions what do they do other than drink champagne then snooze it off.

There's much more to Scotland than oil ..
Be proud of your country ( Scotland) the UK is on its knees its on life support .

I think you will find that most of us are proud of our country Buc, it just that we hold different opinions in what is best. No one and I mean no one knows what is best for the future, we can only back our judgement.

In my post referring to oil I said if oil remains low, I hope for the sake of our economy and the jobs of many posters on here oil gets back to where it was. What I will not say if it falls further is what are you lads saying now.
The UK of which we are a part will be going through a period of change, how the period of change will affect us is unknown, but we are not on our knees.

[Brian Grantland]

Not because they want to. I'd imagine sales haven't recovered since their 'vow' disaster. Still, all help is welcome.

you're missing other factors
overall it's a sh1te excuse for a 'newspaper'
no one buys newspapers anymore
it's a weegie rag for illiterate knuckle scrapers

[Rochead]

Not because they want to. I'd imagine sales haven't recovered since their 'vow' disaster. Still, all help is welcome.

Similar to what I said in a previous post, the Record will aim at what it thinks it's readership wants to read, pandering to the Glasgow cheeks confirms that, they will follow sales not conviction.

[Buc]

Similar to what I said in a previous post, the Record will aim at what it thinks it's readership wants to read, pandering to the Glasgow cheeks confirms that, they will follow sales not conviction.

I thought you bought that paper Rochead

[Buc]

I think you will find that most of us are proud of our country Buc, it just that we hold different opinions in what is best. No one and I mean no one knows what is best for the future, we can only back our judgement.

In my post referring to oil I said if oil remains low, I hope for the sake of our economy and the jobs of many posters on here oil gets back to where it was. What I will not say if it falls further is what are you lads saying now.
The UK of which we are a part will be going through a period of change, how the period of change will affect us is unknown, but we are not on our knees.

Times are changing

[Rochead]

I thought you bought that paper Rochead

I do on certain days Buc, never read their Hun/tim stuff, that will now stop. It did get me exited when I saw it's front page headline yesterday, 'EU GO GIRL' yes please do go I thought, only to discover what they really meant. Bummer��

[Rochead]

Times are changing

That's true, times are constantly changing.

[Aldo1983]

I do on certain days Buc, never read their Hun/tim stuff, that will now stop. It did get me exited when I saw it's front page headline yesterday, 'EU GO GIRL' yes please do go I thought, only to discover what they really meant. Bummer��

Brian thinks your an illiterate knuckle scraper.

His words not my own.

:O

[Brian Grantland]

Brian thinks your an illiterate knuckle scraper.

His words not my own.

:O

my name isn't actually brian

[Rochead]

Brian thinks your an illiterate knuckle scraper.

His words not my own.

:O.



There are some things you can argue against, others you can't, on this occasion I am guilty as charged, in mitigation I am originally from the Glasgow area, or is that just digging a deeper hole for myself? :blue:

[Buc]

my name isn't actually brian

:):)

[Aldo1983]

my name isn't actually brian

OK Brian

[Rochead]

OK Brian

So you tied to stir it for a guy called Brian who isn't actual called Brian, there's me thinking it was Brian to blame when after all it was someone else called Brian. :?

[Barnared]

OK Brian

Top marks for not trying

[Getintaethem]

I do not believe that on balance there will be another Scottish referendum in the next few years. One reason for having one is that Sturgeon knows that at the next election there will probably be more msp's in favour of being a member of the UK than not so her window is closing. On the other hand there are some fundamental reasons why she would probably lose a referendum and therefore she wont risk it (in my opinion). This could change if there were a long lasting economic shock with coming out of the EU and this is why she is starting the legislative process now in case she does see an opportunity arising. I think this is unlikely though.

There was a great article written by the head of the Scottish YES campaign (someone high up anyway) about referendum's. I will try to find it if anyone is interested. He was writing about turnout and how much he thought the turnout would be and who was going to win in the EU ref. He estimated that turnout would be 61% (ok he underestimated that slightly but the debate got more heated after he wrote it so I will let him off on that front). He also predicted that Leave would win. It also talked about the correlation between how long a party was in power as a percentage of likelihood of success in a referendum. I think there will be some pretty smart people telling Sturgeon not to risk it and she is pragmatic and wont go for it. Remember, what politicians say and what they do are two different things and she has only spoken about the possibility - well a lot of things are possible but not probable.

[Stupie82]

Despite disagreeing with it, it is in fact the perfect time to call another referendum. Nicola has to seize the opportunity, after all, the building blocks of the SNP are based on independence. The fallout from Brexit and the implosion of the two main political parties in the UK are playing into the SNP's hands. That said and after much deliberation, i will NOT be voting YES this time around.

Things have changed, England, NI and Wales will not be part of the EU and we pretty much needed them to be. The questions over currency will be greater than ever and the only feasible solution i can see would be to join the Euro, which would be a disaster. My opinions on independence have changed in the last few months and it seems now like desperation without any real thought to the end game. While i wanted independence most of my adult life, for me its not the only solution for this country.

Also, just because Brexit went against a lot of peoples views here in Scotland, the subject of independence is still divisive among us all. As i said earlier, I think there is a four way issue with current EU 'In' voters either voting 'Yes' or 'No' in next indy ref, and EU 'Out' voters voting either 'Yes' or 'No' in Indy ref. Independence is absolutely not a forgone conclusion, despite what the SNP may think. I have honestly never felt more detached from the SNP as i have in the last few months and i personally dont feel my own views support what the SNP are trying to achieve. Its all about the blame game and they think independence will solve everything. In current circumstances, it could in fact hinder us even further. Just my personal opinion at the mo... it could well change :-)

[Mason89]

I can't believe people can look at that circus down south and want to be any part of it. Sturgeon, Salmond & Robertson should use everything at their disposal, to get right on the tits of middle England. Independance will come from them, not us. Which is a shame.

[AberdeenArnold]

Independence for Scotland is inevitable now.

The sooner that everyone can accept that, the better.

The referendum to leave the EU has played into the SNP hands beautifully, it's political checkmate.

[Stupie82]

... no idea why why most post re-posted just now.

[Stupie82]

Independence for Scotland is inevitable now.

The sooner that everyone can accept that, the better.

The referendum to leave the EU has played into the SNP hands beautifully, it's political checkmate.

It has definitely played into the SNP's hands but independence is NOT inevitable. There are those who want independence, but dont want to be part of the EU and the SNP arent even considering that. There also those who will happily stick with a union that is now outside of the EU too. The trouble the SNP have is that a disjointed public who are against brexit dont all share the same views on Independence. Plus the fact 39% voted OUT, is still a high percentage that is against the SNP's views on the EU.

[Barnared]

The English are gonna break up the UK in a heart beat if they find out the Scottish government has a veto on the Brexit vote. I doubt they will have though, so everything will hinge on what Nicola hears from Brussels.

[Stupie82]

The English are gonna break up the UK in a heart beat if they find out the Scottish government has a veto on the Brexit vote. I doubt they will have though, so everything will hinge on what Nicola hears from Brussels.

Sturgeon : "The issue you are talking about is would there have to be a legislative consent motion or motions for the legislation that extricates the UK from the European Union? Looking at it from a logical perspective, I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be that requirement. I suspect the UK Government will take a very different view on that, and we'll have to see where that discussion ends up."

Doesnt really make a veto concrete. The SNP Will try, but its not conclusive they will succeed. There wasnt an overall desire for independence last time and im not so sure that just because of Brexit it will be this time around. Not all those that voted to stay in the EU are pro independence.

[Brian Grantland]

survation poll says party with highest % of leave voters was at 29% (drum roll) snp

so a yes to indy to get into eu is not a slam dunk also, it's 54:46 to indy so gap already narrowing

[Getintaethem]

survation poll says party with highest % of leave voters was at 29% (drum roll) snp

so a yes to indy to get into eu is not a slam dunk also, it's 54:46 to indy so gap already narrowing

432

[Barnared]

Sturgeon : "The issue you are talking about is would there have to be a legislative consent motion or motions for the legislation that extricates the UK from the European Union? Looking at it from a logical perspective, I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be that requirement. I suspect the UK Government will take a very different view on that, and we'll have to see where that discussion ends up."

Doesnt really make a veto concrete. The SNP Will try, but its not conclusive they will succeed. There wasnt an overall desire for independence last time and im not so sure that just because of Brexit it will be this time around. Not all those that voted to stay in the EU are pro independence.

I suppose it's all about trying every last thing possible before the inevitable. The Unionist Union Jack lovers must be pissin pants about now.


I didn't vote in the brexit ref and virtually EVERYONE that I know that is an independence supporter like myself didn't bother to vote either as it was pretty pointless. I wonder how many Scottish 'leavers' stayed in the house on Thursday? Not phukin many I'd have thought.

The SNP are by far the largest supported party in Scotland. It stands to reason that a sizable percentage of people voting in the Brexit ref would have previously voted for the SNP at either Westminster or Hollyrood level. It might come as a surprise to some but it's a phukin no brainer to me. It's clutching at straws sh!t to suggest the relevance of that to a future Scottish independence referendum in my opinion.
In fact, I'd go as far as saying the previous 2 posts are fuelled by said pant pissin. XD


6% swing was all that was required last time, the average voting age is getting younger....

[Getintaethem]

Barnared

"the average voting age is getting younger.... " - really?

"pant pissing" - ok, if the case is so good why has the SNP not committed/demanded another referendum. Sturgeon could have been explicit that she is drawing up legislation and will demand a vote in 6 months time. Why was she not explicit when it is such a "phukin no brainer"?

"Scottish 'leavers' stayed in the house on Thursday? Not phukin many I'd have thought." - Who knows? But the evidence is that there was a huge proportion of people who voted to stay in the UK voted to Remain the EU. 73% of Conservative voters and 83% of Labour voted to Remain in the EU, whereas almost a third of SNP supporters voted to Leave the EU (more than any other party). The two issues are not connected in the way you think.

"EVERYONE that I know that is an independence supporter like myself didn't bother to vote" - I doubt this is statistically relevant.

[Aldo1983]

survation poll says party with highest % of leave voters was at 29% (drum roll) snp

so a yes to indy to get into eu is not a slam dunk also, it's 54:46 to indy so gap already narrowing

Probably a lot of tactical voting going on there Brian.

I've heard from lots of previously vociferous No voters changing their mind. Long way to go either way. It would be a different battle this time.

[NEM83]

The LEAVE campaign lied and abused there position by saying that the 350million pounds saved from sending to the EU would be used on the NHS...........then Farage admits that's not going to happen live on tv (breakfast tv I think) and then even had the cheek to say yeah it was a bit of a lie using it as one of the main slogans used by the vote OUT campaign


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-nigel-farage-nhs-pledge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html

I must have missed the news where Nigel was elevated to a position to decide how taxes are spent. Who's he replacing? Cameron or Osbourne?

[NEM83]

Good post Mason.

I think that the English are a hateful, violent, bigoted race with a massive superiority complex. I do not associate myself with their breed. I am very proud to be Scottish and I know my neighbours well. I know which ones I prefer.

Bigot

[Aldo1983]

I must have missed the news where Nigel was elevated to a position to decide how taxes are spent. Who's he replacing? Cameron or Osbourne?

Gove and IDS have also came out and said it wasn't true.

[Getintaethem]

I must have missed the news where Nigel was elevated to a position to decide how taxes are spent. Who's he replacing? Cameron or Osbourne?

Corbyn more likely.

[Getintaethem]

Gove and IDS have also came out and said it wasn't true.

I believe Gove and IDS said exactly the same as they said in the campaign that £100M would be used for the NHS. They also explained at length during the campaign that £350M was the gross amount going to the EU. What is the gross amount if not £350M?

On the battle bus it said £350M sent to the EU. Let's fund our NHS.

[Mason89]

I believe Gove and IDS said exactly the same as they said in the campaign that £100M would be used for the NHS. They also explained at length during the campaign that £350M was the gross amount going to the EU. What is the gross amount if not £350M?

On the battle bus it said £350M sent to the EU. Let's fund our NHS.


They knew what they were doing. You know what they were doing. How many votes do you think we're won on the back of it? I think the numbers pretty big.

[Stupie82]

I suppose it's all about trying every last thing possible before the inevitable. The Unionist Union Jack lovers must be pissin pants about now.


I didn't vote in the brexit ref and virtually EVERYONE that I know that is an independence supporter like myself didn't bother to vote either as it was pretty pointless. I wonder how many Scottish 'leavers' stayed in the house on Thursday? Not phukin many I'd have thought.

The SNP are by far the largest supported party in Scotland. It stands to reason that a sizable percentage of people voting in the Brexit ref would have previously voted for the SNP at either Westminster or Hollyrood level. It might come as a surprise to some but it's a phukin no brainer to me. It's clutching at straws sh!t to suggest the relevance of that to a future Scottish independence referendum in my opinion.
In fact, I'd go as far as saying the previous 2 posts are fuelled by said pant pissin. XD


6% swing was all that was required last time, the average voting age is getting younger....

The size of the SNP is irrelevant, the same as it was in the last Indy ref. I know many people who voted for SNP, but don't want independence. I myself voted SNP, originally wanted independence, but have now changed my mind, though, I would still vote SNP in an election despite not supporting independence. As said a million times, a vote for SNP isn't a vote for independence and that was proved before.

Its very very naïve to believe independence is inevitable. The SNP are out there banging on about independence and entry in the EU, when in fact they haven't really looked at what the electorate want. As I said, just because 61% vote IN does not mean in any way that the very same 61% want independence and wouldn't necessarily support indy to get back into the EU. If an Indy ref was today, it could well be YES, but that's on the back of the current situation. In 18-24 months time the desire may well have worn off. Sturgeon has to go a long way to go in convincing the electorate that Scotland can definitely get back into the EU and the subject of the EU and currency is still at the forefront of peoples minds when it comes to independence. And just to add, its not pant pishing in any way.

[Aldo1983]

We all know what they meant. Much like the pish about voting No to stay in the EU.

To be fair though I doubt the percentage of voters who actually voted leave would have done it on the back of that claim. More likely the mad racist Yorkshire folk just wanted their antiquated view of "Great Britain" back.

[Stupie82]

Just to add, if the SNP do get another referendum, which is likely, there will need to be two questions on the ballot. One for independence and a second conditional question related to independence on the EU. I cant see how a single question on independence will be enough.

On the subject of the EU, can one member not Veto an entry into the EU anyway? My guess would be if that is the case then Spain would likely veto it, on the basis of the Catalonian independence question. For them it could set a precedence.

[Getintaethem]

Yes Stupie, they can and they will. Either way, it would take years to get back in.

I would rather see the first minister of Scotland actually start planning for how she can grow the economy and these should be the words coming out of her mouth. The country needs reassurance, not political grandstanding. This is having a negative impact on how the rest of the UK (by far our biggest trading partner) views Scotland. With the oil crisis in Aberdeen, would it be possible to use some of the money we wont be sending to the EU to help (for a change) our fishing community, look at the EU legislation stopping fishing and other industries thriving, perhaps subsidise the cost of purchasing boats etc. perhaps look at which countries outside the EU we should push first for trade deals which are in Scotland's interests (countries such as South Korea, Japan, Iceland, Mexico, Canada, The US and several others have already said they want trade deals with the UK now) and look at other ways we can boost the economy through trade. Trade with Norway, Iceland and Canada may well be our priorities. She should be pushing for this. Instead of the cutting of a potentially large economic sector such as fracking, perhaps we could take a grown up approach and see if we can swap out oil experience in the north sea into this area... in Scotland and elsewhere. Making a trade deal with the US on terms that promotes a resurgence in the silicon glen, this time perhaps around cloud computing. Silicon glen was allowed to die when other cheaper manufacturing basis became available. It along with the skills of those employees were lost. The list goes on and on. We have a great opportunity... unfortunately we will probably, yet again, miss out.

In this way, she would strengthen her case for independence, perhaps not in the next couple years but in the future. Her argument of grievance only gets so far, she needs to show action and a plan for the future which is based around replacing what has already been lost and growing the economy in different ways to fit in with the opportunity a world market provides us.

[Barnared]

This is England....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

[Barnared]

and more....

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/525693/Polish-racism-f-off-graffiti-London-Eu-Referendum-Brexit-police-crime

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075


Its only just begun.

[Getintaethem]

This is quite a good service you provide although you are a little slower than Google and there are not many results.

However, I will give you another chance as I need to buy a present for my niece.

Search "My Little Pony".

[Stupie82]

and more....

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/525693/Polish-racism-f-off-graffiti-London-Eu-Referendum-Brexit-police-crime

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075


Its only just begun.

Disgusting, but sadly inevitable. Thankfully a minority among leave voters and certainly doesn't represent the majority of leave voters. Racists and Xenophobes have always existed, they just get the media attention unfortunately.

[Mason89]

Disgusting, but sadly inevitable. Thankfully a minority among leave voters and certainly doesn't represent the majority of leave voters. Racists and Xenophobes have always existed, they just get the media attention unfortunately.

I think they represent them fairly well. You can dress it up as anything you like. It was racism wot won it

[Barnared]

I think they represent them fairly well. You can dress it up as anything you like. It was racism wot won it

Agreed. Like I said, this is England.

[Getintaethem]

I think they represent them fairly well. You can dress it up as anything you like. It was racism wot won it

what proportion that voted Leave are racist do you believe? what proportion of Scottish Leave voters are racist? what proportion of the 30% of SNP voters that voted Leave are racist?

it is not racist to want the same controls on immigration as the majority of countries in the world.

[Mason89]

Scottish nationalism & English nationalism are two very different things.

[Getintaethem]

Scottish nationalism & English nationalism are two very different things.

not answering my question though.

[Aldo1983]

I work in Glasgow and live in East Dunbartonshire. There's not much of a problem with immigration here.

[Mason89]

It wasnt 30% of SNP voters that won it though. Let's face it, they probably thought they were doing their Queen Niccy a favour. In the last couple of days, I've heard it described as an anti establishment vote, a victory for the left & my favourite, a rejection of the neoliberal superstate. Really it's because English people don't like Johnny Foreigner.

[NEM83]

I think they represent them fairly well. You can dress it up as anything you like. It was racism wot won it


Much the same as the Scottish "independence" movement is fueled by anti English bigotry.

Well it can't be sovereignty, not if they want to remain within the EU

[Getintaethem]

Really it's because English people don't like Johnny Foreigner.

kinda telling that you say they are racist by being xenophobic yourself.

[Mason89]

It wasn't either but whatever floats your boat

[Mason89]

kinda telling that you say they are racist by being xenophobic yourself.

When they were interviewing those people in Hartlepool, none of them mentioned their rejection of a neoliberal superstate. It was all my dad fought in the war shyte

[Stupie82]

It wasnt 30% of SNP voters that won it though. Let's face it, they probably thought they were doing their Queen Niccy a favour. In the last couple of days, I've heard it described as an anti establishment vote, a victory for the left & my favourite, a rejection of the neoliberal superstate. Really it's because English people don't like Johnny Foreigner.

Seems to me the only people "dressing it up" as you put it, are the media and those who didn't get what they wanted. Im sorry, but in no way are over half of English and Welsh people racist, have racist tendencies or are Xenophobic. Nationalism there means just as much as it does here, but just like here there are those extreme views that latch onto a campaign. You cannot just summarise a nation as racist because that's what you think. Im not denying there are xenophobes or racists among the ranks, but then there were those who were in the Indy ranks like that too. Those people are made more of an example of, but the reality is they make up a very small proportion.

[Aldo1983]

The media not getting what they wanted?

The Sun and the Daily Mail are the two biggest selling newspapers by some margin.

That's the Daily Mail that made it all about immigration.

[Stupie82]

The media not getting what they wanted?

The Sun and the Daily Mail are the two biggest selling newspapers by some margin.

That's the Daily Mail that made it all about immigration.

I don't read newspapers so I cant comment, though I should have made it clear I meant the like the BBC and SKY when talking about the mdeia, and they did not get what they wanted. Despite the pro-EU propaganda, and there was plenty, it went against them.

[Getintaethem]

When they were interviewing those people in Hartlepool, none of them mentioned their rejection of a neoliberal superstate. It was all my dad fought in the war shyte

Having a dad fight in the war is a sign of racism now is it?

Edit: The point in the statement about the war was that their relatives fought in a war against a non democratic state that was going to rule over us. They see the same thing happening with the EU. A non democratic institution that makes laws that the UK needs to follow. It is a perfectly natural opinion. Nothing whatsoever to do with race.

[Mason89]

Having a dad fight in the war is a sign of racism now is it?

Edit: The point in the statement about the war was that their relatives fought in a war against a non democratic state that was going to rule over us. They see the same thing happening with the EU. A non democratic institution that makes laws that the UK needs to follow. It is a perfectly natural opinion. Nothing whatsoever to do with race.

Aye, that's exactly what they were thinking :D

[Aldo1983]

I'm sure SKY were quite happy since Rupert owns them.

So basically some media weren't happy and some (the ones with the biggest readership and one of the most viewed websites in the world) were?

The anti immigration propaganda worked then?

[Getintaethem]

Aye, that's exactly what they were thinking :D

seriously, you have based your argument that 52% of the English and Welsh are racist based on what you think they were thinking.

[Getintaethem]

I'm sure SKY were quite happy since Rupert owns them.



That will come as a shock to the majority of shareholders that own SKY.

[Mason89]

You're right, I do t know what they were thinking. Maybe 79 year old Hilda Sproggins from Rochdale did despair the neoliberal policies of the European Union, more than she disliked the family of brown folk that moved in two streets over. We'll never know. All we can say for sure is that 17 million people like her, voted for a campaign that was centred around xenophobia

[NEM83]

You're right, I do t know what they were thinking. Maybe 79 year old Hilda Sproggins from Rochdale did despair the neoliberal policies of the European Union, more than she disliked the family of brown folk that moved in two streets over. We'll never know. All we can say for sure is that 17 million people like her, voted for a campaign that was centred around xenophobia


Majority of Europeans are white are they nae?

Did all British ethnic minorities vote remain? Are the ones that voted Leave racist as well?

[Mason89]

Majority of Europeans are white are they nae?

Did all British ethnic minorities vote remain? Are the ones that voted Leave racist as well?

There's a lot wrong with that post. When you work it out, I'll maybe entertain it with an answer

[Aldo1983]

That will come as a shock to the majority of shareholders that own SKY.

I'm sure the anti EU megalomaniac overlord who is the founder and major shareholder with a son as the chairman might have a say.

[Getintaethem]

I'm sure the anti EU megalomaniac overlord who is the founder and major shareholder with a son as the chairman might have a say.

No, wrong again I am afraid. It is different to the "press", there are laws in the UK with regards to news broadcasting on television that means that they need to follow due impartiality. Therefore, the news teams need to be impartial, the management of the company cannot exert any influence that affects their impartiality and the shareholders certainly cannot. If this happens then the onus is on the person being subjected to this to inform the police as a law has been broken. In all the years of Murdoch being involved there has never been any hint that this has been the case (murdoch's being involved in editorial manipulation) and they have won news broadcaster of the year etc.

[Brian Grantland]

No, wrong again I am afraid. It is different to the "press", there are laws in the UK with regards to news broadcasting on television that means that they need to follow due impartiality. Therefore, the news teams need to be impartial, the management of the company cannot exert any influence that affects their impartiality and the shareholders certainly cannot. If this happens then the onus is on the person being subjected to this to inform the police as a law has been broken. In all the years of Murdoch being involved there has never been any hint that this has been the case (murdoch's being involved in editorial manipulation) and they have won news broadcaster of the year etc.

You've spoken a fair amount of sh1te of late but this takes the absolute biscuit

[Aldo1983]

No, wrong again I am afraid. It is different to the "press", there are laws in the UK with regards to news broadcasting on television that means that they need to follow due impartiality. Therefore, the news teams need to be impartial, the management of the company cannot exert any influence that affects their impartiality and the shareholders certainly cannot. If this happens then the onus is on the person being subjected to this to inform the police as a law has been broken. In all the years of Murdoch being involved there has never been any hint that this has been the case (murdoch's being involved in editorial manipulation) and they have won news broadcaster of the year etc.

Wrong again am I? The point wasn't made originally from me about the media spouting pro EU propaganda. So they will be wrong as well.

You will be right though ;)

[Getintaethem]

You've spoken a fair amount of sh1te of late but this takes the absolute biscuit

Aye ok, you contradict me but offer no proof. Just saying that something is ****e is offering an opinion not a fact. There is a difference.

Can you provide one example where Ofcom have upheld a claim of political bias against SKY News and when you do show that this came from the Murdoch family.

Any resignations because of interference from the Murdoch family around political interference? No, none, never?

[Getintaethem]

Wrong again am I? The point wasn't made originally from me about the media spouting pro EU propaganda. So they will be wrong as well.

You will be right though ;)

I can be wrong on many subjects but yes I am factually right on this one. If I am not, please tell me as I am more than happy to admit my mistake.

[Barnared]

I can be wrong on many subjects but yes I am factually right on this one. If I am not, please tell me as I am more than happy to admit my mistake.
Who do you think is gonna win, Italy or Spain?

[Getintaethem]

Who do you think is gonna win, Italy or Spain?

The opposite to your choice... should be a safe bet. :)

[Aldo1983]

I can be wrong on many subjects but yes I am factually right on this one. If I am not, please tell me as I am more than happy to admit my mistake.


:D

Brian is right.

[Brian Grantland]

Aye ok, you contradict me but offer no proof. Just saying that something is ****e is offering an opinion not a fact. There is a difference.

Can you provide one example where Ofcom have upheld a claim of political bias against SKY News and when you do show that this came from the Murdoch family.

Any resignations because of interference from the Murdoch family around political interference? No, none, never?

I don't know about OFCOM reports.
But if you don't think that Murdoch and his beliefs set the political direction, bias and tone of his news operations. You're living in denial.

It starts with hiring a head of news who believes in what you believe in.
Who then hires similar people and so on.

That, in all likelihood, is why you don't get complaints from Kay Burley but loads about her.

Or you can just talk sh1te about how digger doesn't influence the news coverage of the stations he owns.

[Barnared]

We are moving into the 5th day after the English voted to leave the EU and still nobody in Westminster, I stress NOBODY, has a phukin clue what is going on or what to do. Even the brexitieers are back tracking and totally sh!tting themselves.

Such a parcel of rogues in a nation. Phukin retards more like.

[Getintaethem]

I don't know about OFCOM reports.
But if you don't think that Murdoch and his beliefs set the political direction, bias and tone of his news operations. You're living in denial.

It starts with hiring a head of news who believes in what you believe in.
Who then hires similar people and so on.

That, in all likelihood, is why you don't get complaints from Kay Burley but loads about her.

Or you can just talk sh1te about how digger doesn't influence the news coverage of the stations he owns.

I never made the claim that Murdoch does not influence the news coverage of the stations he owns. Far from it, in fact. But I am not talking about "stations", I am talking about a station in the UK that has different laws to the ones in the US and elsewhere around the world. I am no Murdoch apologist. He also does not own SKY as he has a minority shareholding.

But back to your evidence that he has influence (which is illegal in this country). You have no evidence from OFCOM reports, you have no evidence of him hiring people who believes in what he believes politically and all the evidence you have is what you "think" is the situation.

But I do love a good conspiracy theory. You now suggest that Murdoch has hired his own men who believes in what he believes and they hire people and they hire people. Again you provide no evidence of this sadly.

Lets take evidence from someone that worked there. For example, Mehdi Hasan who now works at the New Statesman and author of a book on Ed Miliband. Not your usual Murdoch clone. A producer for SKY News for 3 years. "John Ryley, the Sky News boss, Chris Birkett, his executive editor, and Jonathan Levy, the head of the broadcaster's political unit in Millbank -- all of whom I consider friends of mine -- are not Tories, and, if they are, they've done a damn fine job of hiding it from me and countless others." "But to accuse Sky News of pursuing "political influence" is a desperate claim". Even going as far as to say "Left-wing conspiracy theorists can sleep in peace."

So the evidence so far on my side is: there are no OFCOM reports proving your case, no one ever resigned because of any hint of political direction coming from the Murdoch's and a left leaning journalist writing in a left wing magazine stating that there is no interference, that the bosses are not right wing tories and any such claim is just desperate stuff.

So, on balance, who is talking sh1te? No need to answer, the evidence speaks for itself.

[Brian Grantland]

I never made the claim that Murdoch does not influence the news coverage of the stations he owns. Far from it, in fact. But I am not talking about "stations", I am talking about a station in the UK that has different laws to the ones in the US and elsewhere around the world. I am no Murdoch apologist. He also does not own SKY as he has a minority shareholding.

But back to your evidence that he has influence (which is illegal in this country). You have no evidence from OFCOM reports, you have no evidence of him hiring people who believes in what he believes politically and all the evidence you have is what you "think" is the situation.

But I do love a good conspiracy theory. You now suggest that Murdoch has hired his own men who believes in what he believes and they hire people and they hire people. Again you provide no evidence of this sadly.

Lets take evidence from someone that worked there. For example, Mehdi Hasan who now works at the New Statesman and author of a book on Ed Miliband. Not your usual Murdoch clone. A producer for SKY News for 3 years. "John Ryley, the Sky News boss, Chris Birkett, his executive editor, and Jonathan Levy, the head of the broadcaster's political unit in Millbank -- all of whom I consider friends of mine -- are not Tories, and, if they are, they've done a damn fine job of hiding it from me and countless others." "But to accuse Sky News of pursuing "political influence" is a desperate claim". Even going as far as to say "Left-wing conspiracy theorists can sleep in peace."

So the evidence so far on my side is: there are no OFCOM reports proving your case, no one ever resigned because of any hint of political direction coming from the Murdoch's and a left leaning journalist writing in a left wing magazine stating that there is no interference, that the bosses are not right wing tories and any such claim is just desperate stuff.

So, on balance, who is talking sh1te? No need to answer, the evidence speaks for itself.

Just so I'm clear

Your position is that Rupert Murdoch nor his family, in any way, shape or form influences the political or editorial positions of Sky News.

[Stupie82]

A genuine question here. If the SNP do hold a referendum on independence, will they also have to add a 2nd conditional question on the ballot paper, for remaining/leaving the EU? So the question maybe word something like : If Scotland were to be come an independent country, would you want it to remain in the EU.

I just cant see how we can solely have a referendum on independence without also asking the question over the EU. Despite 61% voting for the EU, not all will vote for independence, therefore the % of the "leave" EU votes, coupled with "yes" for independence, could be higher than people may think. Either that or it could be two completely separate referendums?

[Barnared]

US bank JP Morgan has said it now expects Scotland to vote for independence and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the European Union in 2019.
JP Morgan economist Malcolm Barr said in a note to clients: "Our base case is that Scotland will vote for independence and institute a new currency at that point (2019)"

[Rochead]

A genuine question here. If the SNP do hold a referendum on independence, will they also have to add a 2nd conditional question on the ballot paper, for remaining/leaving the EU? So the question maybe word something like : If Scotland were to be come an independent country, would you want it to remain in the EU.

I just cant see how we can solely have a referendum on independence without also asking the question over the EU. Despite 61% voting for the EU, not all will vote for independence, therefore the % of the "leave" EU votes, coupled with "yes" for independence, could be higher than people may think. Either that or it could be two completely separate referendums?

I believe it would have to be two referendums, last week's was for the UK, Scotland voted for the UK to remain, however we voted to remain in the UK in 2014 so it would seem reasonable to accept the result. If the question is to be asked of Scotland, it would have to be asked of Scotland as a separate entity from the UK. The SNP have succeed in brainwashing people into Treating Thursday's vote as a vote for Scotland on it's own, it was not.

[Buc]

I believe it would have to be two referendums, last week's was for the UK, Scotland voted for the UK to remain, however we voted to remain in the UK in 2014 so it would seem reasonable to accept the result. If the question is to be asked of Scotland, it would have to be asked of Scotland as a separate entity from the UK. The SNP have succeed in brainwashing people into Treating Thursday's vote as a vote for Scotland on it's own, it was not.

Nobody brainwashes more people!e than Westminster its what they are good at.
We aren't brainwashed we want change. And we will vote for it this time .

My wife's a staff nurse the Europeans who work where she is are angry and scared after being taken out the EU they voted no the last and won't vote no again they feel conned .now how many EU citizens are there living and working in Scotland 200.000 ish I'm led to believe..

[Buc]

http://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_is_in_brussels_today_get_the_facts _here


Thought I'd share this lads as I'm impartial

[Rochead]

Nobody brainwashes more people!e than Westminster its what they are good at.
We aren't brainwashed we want change. And we will vote for it this time .

My wife's a staff nurse the Europeans who work where she is are angry and scared after being taken out the EU they voted no the last and won't vote no again they feel conned .now how many EU citizens are there living and working in Scotland 200.000 ish I'm led to believe..

Buc, I was referring to last week's UK vote, the SNP are using it as a Scotland only vote and using it to brainwash. The fact is that it was a UK vote.
Regarding EU Nationals working here, has there been any mention of asking them to leave? Was there ever any mention of member countries being in the EU for all time? Every member state has the right to leave or stay if they so desire, the UK has decided to leave. Having a referendum on the EU was on the cards before the vote on Scotland leaving the UK. So please explain to me, in what way was anyone conned. I do not remember any suggestion of there being some sort of tie up between our 2014 vote and remaining in the EU.

We have had the vote, decision made, no matter whether the result went for or against you.

[Stupie82]

Nobody brainwashes more people!e than Westminster its what they are good at.
We aren't brainwashed we want change. And we will vote for it this time .

My wife's a staff nurse the Europeans who work where she is are angry and scared after being taken out the EU they voted no the last and won't vote no again they feel conned .now how many EU citizens are there living and working in Scotland 200.000 ish I'm led to believe..

I certainly don't dispute the fact Scotland wants change after last weeks vote, but for me that doesn't guarantee both independence and the EU in the way the SNP think. I have voted SNP my whole voting life and I voted Yes in the last referendum. What annoys me about this is that somehow the vote gives the SNP a new mandate on independence with the EU just coupled into it. Yes, the Scottish public as a whole voted to stay in the EU, but that doesn't mean that it will transfer into Yes votes for independence. Its two separate issues, the EU is one and independence is the other, and both need to be treated as such.

The SNP's current stance is that 61% voted remain, so we should have an independence referendum... I say why? ... and of that 61%, how many would vote for independence? The publics votes will be diluted further. You have the YES and IN voters, YES and OUT voters, NO and IN voters and NO and OUT voters. Im not sure that the SNP will get the result they hope, but whether they do or not, my main gripe is why isn't the EU being treated as a separate issue? the EU perspective could change in an independent Scotland, so should therefore be asked separately. Just my opinion on the matter.

[Brian Grantland]

http://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_is_in_brussels_today_get_the_facts _here


Thought I'd share this lads as I'm impartial

in what?

[Brian Grantland]

I certainly don't dispute the fact Scotland wants change after last weeks vote, but for me that doesn't guarantee both independence and the EU in the way the SNP think. I have voted SNP my whole voting life and I voted Yes in the last referendum. What annoys me about this is that somehow the vote gives the SNP a new mandate on independence with the EU just coupled into it. Yes, the Scottish public as a whole voted to stay in the EU, but that doesn't mean that it will transfer into Yes votes for independence. Its two separate issues, the EU is one and independence is the other, and both need to be treated as such.

The SNP's current stance is that 61% voted remain, so we should have an independence referendum... I say why? ... and of that 61%, how many would vote for independence? The publics votes will be diluted further. You have the YES and IN voters, YES and OUT voters, NO and IN voters and NO and OUT voters. Im not sure that the SNP will get the result they hope, but whether they do or not, my main gripe is why isn't the EU being treated as a separate issue? the EU perspective could change in an independent Scotland, so should therefore be asked separately. Just my opinion on the matter.

All entirely fair points.

It's actually time for a deep breath and stepping away from referendums.

MPs/MSPs/MEPs need to get on with the jobs they are supposed to do.

Leadership isn't just campaigning all the time, we have a break now (unless a snap general is called) from elections, after 3 straight years of them.
It's time for some actual work to be done people are getting sick of it.

[Mason89]

I've heard about electoral fatigue in Scotland. How hard is it to draw a willy on a sheet of paper once a year?

[Barnared]

I've heard about electoral fatigue in Scotland. How hard is it to draw a willy on a sheet of paper once a year?
That's not the hard part. It's getting folk to think a little bit that's proving difficult.

[Brian Grantland]

I've heard about electoral fatigue in Scotland. How hard is it to draw a willy on a sheet of paper once a year?

It's the excuses not to govern that gets me.

Don't try to make the country better and fix problems in education, health and inequality.

Nah its more elections people want...

[Jupiter]

US bank JP Morgan has said it now expects Scotland to vote for independence and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the European Union in 2019.
JP Morgan economist Malcolm Barr said in a note to clients: "Our base case is that Scotland will vote for independence and institute a new currency at that point (2019)"

When have the banks ever got anything wrong?

[Stupie82]

Scotland's First Minister has vowed to press on with attempts to ensure Scotland stays in the EU after its leaders said membership was a UK matter, not one for the bloc.

Junker appeared to scotch Scottish hopes of negotiating a separate deal to stay in Europe, when he said neither he nor European Council president Donald Tusk would interfere in internal British politics.

He said: "I will listen carefully to what the First Minister will tell me, but we don't have the intention - neither Donald nor myself - to interfere in the British process. That is not our duty and not our job."

Meanwhile Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy told reporters in Brussels: "If the United Kingdom leaves, so does Scotland."

He added: "The Spanish government... is against negotiating with anyone other than the government of the United Kingdom, and the rest are internal problems between the UK and the others (the countries that are part of the UK).

"I'm radically against it, the treaties are radically against it, and I'm sure everybody is against this.

"Therefore, if the United Kingdom leaves, during the negotiation or whenever it leaves, Scotland also leaves the EU institutions."

As I said previously, Spain will block any attempt by Scotland to get into the EU, both as an independent country and especially part of the UK. They have a veto they can use against anybody wanting to join the EU and with Catalonia being such a touchy subject in Spain, they will not set a precedent by allowing Scotland in. The SNP wont give up on it and rightly so if thats their desire for Scotland, but it seems like a pipe dream. Then it begs the question, would Scotland benefit in any way from being both out of the UK and the EU?

[gervaise_brookhampst]

Summed it up nicely adol..........I mean Boris


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6HNXtdvVQ

[gervaise_brookhampst]

Ach wrang thread and I can't edit for some reason? :? :(

[LED]

All entirely fair points.

It's actually time for a deep breath and stepping away from referendums.

MPs/MSPs/MEPs need to get on with the jobs they are supposed to do.

Leadership isn't just campaigning all the time, we have a break now (unless a snap general is called) from elections, after 3 straight years of them.
It's time for some actual work to be done people are getting sick of it.
Totally agree with both Brian and stupie posts. I've also been an SNP supporter all my voting life but I find what sturgeon is doing is completely wrong. She should be getting on with governing her country and preparing it to be in a strong position for brexit. After that who knows.

There might nae even be an EU worth joining by then.

[ragnarok]

I certainly don't dispute the fact Scotland wants change after last weeks vote, but for me that doesn't guarantee both independence and the EU in the way the SNP think. I have voted SNP my whole voting life and I voted Yes in the last referendum. What annoys me about this is that somehow the vote gives the SNP a new mandate on independence with the EU just coupled into it. Yes, the Scottish public as a whole voted to stay in the EU, but that doesn't mean that it will transfer into Yes votes for independence. Its two separate issues, the EU is one and independence is the other, and both need to be treated as such.

The SNP's current stance is that 61% voted remain, so we should have an independence referendum... I say why? ... and of that 61%, how many would vote for independence? The publics votes will be diluted further. You have the YES and IN voters, YES and OUT voters, NO and IN voters and NO and OUT voters. Im not sure that the SNP will get the result they hope, but whether they do or not, my main gripe is why isn't the EU being treated as a separate issue? the EU perspective could change in an independent Scotland, so should therefore be asked separately. Just my opinion on the matter.

Agree with all of this. If Sturgeon and the SNP want to protect Scotland's interests then they need to focus on doing so in the UK parliament. The SNP must be at the negotiating table as the plan for Brexit clearly has implications for the future of the Union. It would be nice to see some sensible leadership rather than the usual posturing.

[Pacman1903]

is it just me that canna f@cking stick Sturgeon

[Rochead]

is it just me that canna f@cking stick Sturgeon

No

[Barnared]

is it just me that canna f@cking stick Sturgeon

Out of interest, name a politician that you like.

[Barnared]

Agree with all of this. If Sturgeon and the SNP want to protect Scotland's interests then they need to focus on doing so in the UK parliament. The SNP must be at the negotiating table as the plan for Brexit clearly has implications for the future of the Union. It would be nice to see some sensible leadership rather than the usual posturing.

Clearly delusional.
1- there will be NO negotiations
2- Scotland will do as it is told to by England

[Pacman1903]

Out of interest, name a politician that you like.

Some more than i like her. She grinds my gears

Shes a horrible rabid troll with sh@te hair, everytime my eyes or ears lock on to her i fill up with rage. She has a look at me im tough attitude that gripes me. I also think her priorities are all wrong, that doesnt help matters

[Stupie82]

is it just me that canna f@cking stick Sturgeon

I cant stand her really. I was a big Alex Salmond supporter and it was one of the reasons I started supporting the SNP and even though he can be cocky, I admired his tenacity. I once wrote him a letter when I was doing a modern studies project and I got a wonderful reply back. Thinking back, it likely wasn't him that replied, but as 15 year old, it stuck with me.

With Sturgeon, she just comes a cross as a nippy biscuit and sanctimonious. I don't find her endearing at all and I find it hard to support her in any way. We (UK) voted out of Europe and the first thing she does is dive right into the independence debate, with no future proofing or ways to handle the situation. She constantly plays the 'Scotland is hard done by' card and its wearing thin with me now. While I align myself with many of the SNP's policies, she does nothing to inspire me to vote SNP.

[Aldo1983]

We will never ever have a politician making proper decisions that everyone will like. If you bring looks into it then they've no chance.

I like her. Especially when you compare her to the potential future PMs - Johnson, Gove or May.

[fatshaft]

We will never ever have a politician making proper decisions that everyone will like. If you bring looks into it then they've no chance.

I like her. Especially when you compare her to the potential future PMs - Johnson, Gove or May.

Absolutely.


As for IndyII, looking more likely by the day. Bring it the **** on!

[Pacman1903]

With Sturgeon, she just comes a cross as a nippy biscuit and sanctimonious. I don't find her endearing at all and I find it hard to support her in any way. We (UK) voted out of Europe and the first thing she does is dive right into the independence debate, with no future proofing or ways to handle the situation. She constantly plays the 'Scotland is hard done by' card and its wearing thin with me now. While I align myself with many of the SNP's policies, she does nothing to inspire me to vote SNP.

Good post min, i agree wholeheartedly

[Barnared]

We will never ever have a politician making proper decisions that everyone will like. If you bring looks into it then they've no chance.

I like her. Especially when you compare her to the potential future PMs - Johnson, Gove or May.

Right now she is all we have standing between us and the aforementioned right wing tory scum. She doesn't look that nice so that's not going to help her.....phuk me!

There is an ugly trait us Scots have for beating down anyone of our own that dares to aspire. 'Don't get above your station'. It's helped England keep us in servitude for a very long time. They don't even have to try that hard.

[Aldo1983]

Interesting that some folk think she's a nippy sweetie. I've met her once and she is exactly how I imagined, very approachable. She appears to be popular outwith Scotland as well which is unusual.

[Buc]

Clearly delusional.
1- there will be NO negotiations
2- Scotland will do as it is told to by England

Indeed

[Barnared]

While I align myself with many of the SNP's policies, she does nothing to inspire me to vote SNP.
?
What is she supposed to do, personally, to inspire you?
If you agree/don't agree with policy or ideals that should surely be enough, no?

I'm sorry, I think that was a bizarre statement.

[Stupie82]

?
What is she supposed to do, personally, to inspire you?
If you agree/don't agree with policy or ideals that should surely be enough, no?

I'm sorry, I think that was a bizarre statement.

She is the face of the party though, so when she comes across as she does to me, it doesn't inspire me to want to vote for SNP!

The whole approach to a new referendum by Sturgeon has made me sick to my stomach. She should be taking the lead on providing solutions to Brexit and doing whats best for the country. She thinks Indy will solve everything, but its a long term project and meantime she is forgetting the short term. I want independence for this country, but now is the wrong time to be perusing it. Many of you will disagree with that and think its the perfect time, but that's politics, it divides us all and we all have our own take on it.

[Mason89]

I cant believe you liked Salmond but think Sturgeons sanctimonious :D

[Stupie82]

I cant believe you liked Salmond but think Sturgeons sanctimonious :D

It seem to work better with him. I cant quite put my finger on it, I just don't like her. Nothing to do with way she looks, just the way she is. I used to watch Salmond in debates and admire him and laugh when he would turn someone inside out. With her, I cringe and want to hide. She doesn't have the same prowess as Salmond, or at least doesn't come across as well. Personal preferences and all that, but she has put me clean off.

[Aldo1983]

Johnson has pulled out.




Fnar Fnar

[ragnarok]

Clearly delusional.
1- there will be NO negotiations
2- Scotland will do as it is told to by England

:zzz: Even by your low standards.

[Brian Grantland]

It seem to work better with him. I cant quite put my finger on it, I just don't like her. Nothing to do with way she looks, just the way she is. I used to watch Salmond in debates and admire him and laugh when he would turn someone inside out. With her, I cringe and want to hide. She doesn't have the same prowess as Salmond, or at least doesn't come across as well. Personal preferences and all that, but she has put me clean off.

She's from Glasgow.
I think that might be part of it.

[Mason89]

She's from Glasgow.
I think that might be part of it.

Everything south of Stinehaven is weegie to you teuchters :D

Whereabouts in Glasgow is Ayrshire?

[Barnared]

She is the face of the party though, so when she comes across as she does to me, it doesn't inspire me to want to vote for SNP!

The whole approach to a new referendum by Sturgeon has made me sick to my stomach. She should be taking the lead on providing solutions to Brexit and doing whats best for the country. She thinks Indy will solve everything, but its a long term project and meantime she is forgetting the short term. I want independence for this country, but now is the wrong time to be perusing it. Many of you will disagree with that and think its the perfect time, but that's politics, it divides us all and we all have our own take on it.

Solutions to brexit? Are you for real? What in lala land would that be? XD

As far as I can see, she and the committee are looking at all they can to allow Scotland to remain in the EU because the people that she was elected to serve want this. Am I wrong? I also see that there seems to be nothing they can do.

That's no solution to brexit. There is no solution to brexit.

I really think some folk still don't get that this is happening. There will be no do-over. There will be no negotiations.
Single market = freedom of movement.

I agree about having your own take on it but there's one thing being of one opinion or another re the vote itself, where every vote is as valid as the other. Another thing is deluding ourselves into believing there is some middle ground to be found or we can negotiate something different or find a "solution"! That's utter nonsense.

[Brian Grantland]

gordon wilson

what a fanny

[Barnared]

:zzz: Even by your low standards.

Wow, I think you really believe what you wrote. Don't you?

[Pacman1903]

Everything south of Stinehaven is weegie to you teuchters :D

Whereabouts in Glasgow is Ayrshire?

South Glasgow

[Aldo1983]

For all folk are complaining about our FM going over to speak with the EU and talking about another referendum...at least she's actually doing something.

I was swithering right up till the last minute about voting leave but I was still to be convinced. I've yet to see or hear anyone put a plan in place for what we do next.

All that's happened is the two main parties have fought with themselves and we are now left with the potential PM being either someone that's husband is a major shareholder in G4s, who has ****ed the police, etc over and is pro EU versus someone that would stab anyone in the back and has ****ed the teachers over.

Excellent work.

[Brian Grantland]

For all folk are complaining about our FM going over to speak with the EU and talking about another referendum...at least she's actually doing something.

I was swithering right up till the last minute about voting leave but I was still to be convinced. I've yet to see or hear anyone put a plan in place for what we do next.

All that's happened is the two main parties have fought with themselves and we are now left with the potential PM being either someone that's husband is a major shareholder in G4s, who has ****ed the police, etc over and is pro EU versus someone that would stab anyone in the back and has ****ed the teachers over.

Excellent work.

Not to be a naysayer

But a - she's not actually in a position to DO anything about Brexit.
b - she hasn't actually done anything but go to Brussels and get told nae luck hen, which from a negotiating position isn't great

This week alone there's been a resignation from the nonce enquiry over govt interference and her own right hand man and newly appointed educ sec has gone woah there's way too much bureaucracy in schools, he's been the one signing the cheques, and he didn't have a clue.

All I have said and others is it's time to stop holding referendums or threatening them, and time to get on with fixing Scotland's problems - is that too much to ask.

[Jupiter]

Mrs Krankie has pulled off the amazing acheivement of bring even more annoying than fat Salmond. I can't change the TV channel fast enough when I see her ugly mug appear.

[Barnared]

Boris booted out of the tory-master race.

My bet is a short term, half Scot, to try and save the union

[Barnared]

Shes a horrible rabid troll with sh@te hair, everytime my eyes or ears lock on to her i fill up with rage


She's from Glasgow.
I think that might be part of it.


Mrs Krankie has pulled off the amazing acheivement of bring even more annoying than fat Salmond. I can't change the TV channel fast enough when I see her ugly mug appear.

On reflection, I think today's raising of the level and tone of the debate has killed this thread stone dead for me.

[Jupiter]

On reflection, I think today's raising of the level and tone of the debate has killed this thread stone dead for me.

I'll raise the tone a bit more, Mrs Krankie looks like she is in the middle of a *** change, but I can't decide in which direction.

[Brian Grantland]

On reflection, I think today's raising of the level and tone of the debate has killed this thread stone dead for me.

see ya Ian

[Aldo1983]

Not to be a naysayer

But a - she's not actually in a position to DO anything about Brexit.
b - she hasn't actually done anything but go to Brussels and get told nae luck hen, which from a negotiating position isn't great

This week alone there's been a resignation from the nonce enquiry over govt interference and her own right hand man and newly appointed educ sec has gone woah there's way too much bureaucracy in schools, he's been the one signing the cheques, and he didn't have a clue.

All I have said and others is it's time to stop holding referendums or threatening them, and time to get on with fixing Scotland's problems - is that too much to ask.

Again though, what's the Government doing? Why is she getting all the flak about the way she looks? Who gives **** how she looks.

[The Trading Sheep]

is it just me that canna f@cking stick Sturgeon


No, like you I do not like her one bit.

This is all a very handy distraction for them for their failings in government.

[Rochead]

Again though, what's the Government doing? Why is she getting all the flak about the way she looks? Who gives **** how she looks.

Mr Murrel?

[ragnarok]

Solutions to brexit? Are you for real? What in lala land would that be? XD

As far as I can see, she and the committee are looking at all they can to allow Scotland to remain in the EU because the people that she was elected to serve want this. Am I wrong? I also see that there seems to be nothing they can do.

That's no solution to brexit. There is no solution to brexit.

I really think some folk still don't get that this is happening. There will be no do-over. There will be no negotiations.
Single market = freedom of movement.

I agree about having your own take on it but there's one thing being of one opinion or another re the vote itself, where every vote is as valid as the other. Another thing is deluding ourselves into believing there is some middle ground to be found or we can negotiate something different or find a "solution"! That's utter nonsense.

What are you on about? The UK has just voted to leave the EU. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK less than two years ago. There will clearly be a negotiation between the government of the UK and the remaining EU members as to the future relationship. If there is another referendum, Scotland will need to choose between remaining part of the UK, maintaining a relationship with the EU as per the outcome of said negotiations, and leaving the UK and applying for membership of the EU. I completely understand that it is in the interests of the SNP to distance itself from the negotiations between the UK and the EU given that they clearly have no desire to be part of the UK irrespective of what is agreed. There should be a second referendum on independence once it is clear what our choices are but it isn't a given that independence will be the best option in two years time or that Scotland will even vote for independence. The SNP are basically saying that they are entitled to completely ignore the outcome of the previous independence referendum due to the result of the EU referendum but voting to remain part of the EU as part of the UK is not the same as voting to leave the UK to become part of the EU. There will be a choice and the SNP are currently gearing up to put all of their eggs in one basket.

[Pacman1903]

On reflection, I think today's raising of the level and tone of the debate has killed this thread stone dead for me.

To be fair to myself I did write more than just she has sh@te hair. Her priorities are wrong and her small man syndrome attitude doesn't endear her to me or a lot of others

[Aldo1983]

Well we might soon have an Edinburgh/Aberdeen hybrid PM in Gove so you won't have to just worry about a "Weegie" too much longer. Or we might have May I suppose. She's nice right?

Even the Daily Mail, the bastion of the leave movement, is turning against the Tories. They won't be happy if May gets it given her record on "immigration".

[Mason89]

To be fair to myself I did write more than just she has sh@te hair. Her priorities are wrong and her small man syndrome attitude doesn't endear her to me or a lot of others

Still better than the circus at Westminster though. Gove, May, Johnson, Corbyn, the utter snakes in the Labour Party, Farage, Murdoch etc

I'm not a fan of the SNP but given the alternative, I'll back the competent one with the mans hair

[Aldo1983]

Still better than the circus at Westminster though. Gove, May, Johnson, Corbyn, the utter snakes in the Labour Party, Farage, Murdoch etc

I'm not a fan of the SNP but given the alternative, I'll back the competent one with the mans hair

It amazes me that the favourite for the PM job is someone that has gone unchallenged on her husbands position with G4S whilst being the Secretary of state. If she was in the SNP it would have it's on thread.

[Brian Grantland]

It amazes me that the favourite for the PM job is someone that has gone unchallenged on her husbands position with G4S whilst being the Secretary of state. If she was in the SNP it would have it's on thread.

so start a tory leadership thread to discuss

[Aldo1983]

so start a tory leadership thread to discuss

I don't want to Brian. Happy to keep it all here, especially since it was a follow on from what my bum chum Mason posted.

Thanks though.

[Buc]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/holyrood/870775/17-broken-promises-better-together-campaign-revealed-independence-day/



Interesting read this.i know it's a few months since the article but for those who don't know .

[mondo_notion]

Anyone know why just about every flyover from Aberdeen to Edinburgh earlier today had loads of saltire flag wavers waving at passing cars? Is this the push for MKII gaining a bit of momentum?

[Mason89]

I don’t think this helps.

Obviously those that voted no are absolute Jose Quitongos but it doesn’t do any good pointing this out. They have to square it away with themselves as to why they’re such spineless toadying hun shyte hawks.

[Pacman1903]

Anyone know why just about every flyover from Aberdeen to Edinburgh earlier today had loads of saltire flag wavers waving at passing cars? Is this the push for MKII gaining a bit of momentum?

Its been going on for weeks. I saw them on the way to Annan a month ago and they were still on the go last weekend

[Mason89]

Possibly drunker than I thought last night.

Sorry.

[mondo_notion]

Its been going on for weeks. I saw them on the way to Annan a month ago and they were still on the go last weekend

Ah right, I didn't realise that. So who are they? I'm guessing they are not just proud nationalists out for a day of flag waving.

I gave them all a toot as I drove past anyway.

Nae worries Mason I've seen a lot stranger posts by sober people on here.

[Pacman1903]

Ah right, I didn't realise that. So who are they? I'm guessing they are not just proud nationalists out for a day of flag waving.

I gave them all a toot as I drove past anyway.

.

Clearly people who dinna go to the fitba as its been Saturdays we have seen them

[stewarty27]

I don’t think this helps.

Obviously those that voted no are absolute Jose Quitongos but it doesn’t do any good pointing this out. They have to square it away with themselves as to why they’re such spineless toadying hun shyte hawks.

Possibly one of your finest posts.

Stay Drunk...….

[fatshaft]

No, like you I do not like her one bit.
.
Ah yes the old " I dinna like her/him, so I'm going to vote to have no sovereignty forever more". Feeble as ****

[mondo_notion]

Nicola wanting MKII by 2021. Of course she needs to seek approval from Theresa May or which ever clown is in charge in Westminster to go ahead with the vote. We will see how stubborn they are going to be.

I wonder if the shambles that has been brexit will be enough to swing it in favour of 'yes' this time. To be honest I'm not convinced but I hope to god it is.

[Pacman1903]

Hopefully i live elsewhere by then.

Zwolle for example. What a fantastic city

[Mason89]

We can’t repeat the same mistakes as last time. We should invite the Russians on board

[donsdaft]

If the English drag us out of Europe without a full customs union then you can say goodbye to Scottish Independence for at least 50 years.



Edit: probably longer

[donsdaft]

Hopefully i live elsewhere by then.

Zwolle for example. What a fantastic city

Budapest for me


https://youtu.be/bHs_o8qbND0

[Jupiter]

No chance of a referendum by 2021, the Maybot or whoever replaces her will not allow it which Mrs Krankie knows fine well. She is just pandering to the zoomers in the SNP.

[Mason89]

Not allow it? What happened to this Union of equals thing?

[Pacman1903]

Budapest for me


https://youtu.be/bHs_o8qbND0

Aarau is my real idea. If its good enough for Einstein its good enough for a smarter c@nt in me. Fantastic city

[donsdaft]

If only I had the money
Switzerland in July and August
Thailand in January and February ( after New Year)
The other 8 months in Budapest

[Aldo1983]

There are some amount of total wasters in the Scottish parliament. None more so than Rennie. Totally against anoghert referendum on independence. Wants a second referendum on Europe because he didn't like the result.

[donsdaft]

Surely you mean a third referendum on Europe.

[Aldo1983]

Surely you mean a third referendum on Europe.

No, I meant anoghert.

[57vintage]

I see that the FM is asking for monetary donations to fund the conversation that Hosie was meant to be having a couple of years back before he and ****agers' hotel room-sharing dude Angus McNeill were outed for having their stroops in the same rather fragrant political journalist, now Mrs Hosie, I am told.

Rules? 12471

This seems to be the modus operandi of the National Party given the previous FM's plea to have his court case funded likewise last year, to avoid his having to dip into his millions, possibly a contrary action to the allegations which he may face.

I hear that Natalie McGarry's a dab hand at looking after the movement's funds, and provided she's not incarcerated at the sentencing hearing next month, should be available to take care of business.

Rules 2? 12472

[Mason89]

McGarry is thick as a submarine hatch. She should have just claimed the money as expenses & nobody would have given a f*ck. Skimming cash & shagging are the two perks that attract MPs to the job. The SNP have their fair share, none of which weaken the case for independence

[57vintage]

McGarry is thick as a submarine hatch. She should have just claimed the money as expenses & nobody would have given a f*ck. Skimming cash & shagging are the two perks that attract MPs to the job. The SNP have their fair share, none of which weaken the case for independence

As the Polish saying (translated) goes; "Not my circus, not my monkeys".

[mondo_notion]

"Not my circus, not my monkeys".

I've got that tattoo.

[Jupiter]

From 2 years ago, Mrs Krankie announced a second referendum to be held between autumn 2018 and spring 2019.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/nicola-sturgeon-fires-starting-gun-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum

[donsdaft]

I’m not going to read that but I presume it was because she thought that the English fascist party would have managed to isolate themselves from the civilised world by then, taking us with them.

[donsdaft]

We’re talking about a country here that has a significant percentage of the population able to describe Nigel Farage and Anne Widdicom as a dream team.

[mondo_notion]

Well our handlers at Westminster are ruling out allowing a referendum by 2021.

We should have one anyway.

[donsdaft]

What we should do is hold the European elections.

Even if they manage a last minute fudge to stop them in England

[Aldo1983]

Unfortunately independence won't happen in 2021 either. Too many Huns out there.

[Mason89]

The answer is simple. Encourage English remainers to move north & vote for independence, while publicly slating the English right for being sh1tebags & not wanting their own independence (why is that I wonder?)

[Red Zone]

It's tough to know what happens first, Milne funds Kingsford or London approves another indyref2, I suspect neither in the next 5 years.

[Donanddusted]

The answer is simple. Encourage English remainers to move north & vote for independence, while publicly slating the English right for being sh1tebags & not wanting their own independence (why is that I wonder?)

Don't you know?
It's because we're better together.