O/T Vote Conservative!

[Ellis_D]

I have spent a lot of my time criticising the Tories - and I will continue to do so. I have also spent a lot of my time criticising Labour - and I will also continue to do so.

But Theresa May has come out and said what millions of people are thinking and want. Longer prison sentences for terrorists, easier for the authorities to deport terrorists, more powers to monitor potential terrorists, and changes to human rights laws to get the b@stards.

Jeremy Corbyn is too afraid, and also too in bed with the terrorists. Fack Corbyn. A vote for Labour is a vote for more terrorism.

Watch the video:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/jun/06/theresa-may-we-will-change-human-rights-laws-to-crack-down-on-terrorism-video

[MILLERSTALE]

Oh Dear, you are not believing anything a politician tells you, are you ?

As Home Secretary she told us she would bring immigration down to tens of thousands ��

[millertop]

I'll vote for you I want thanks.

I can't vote for labour under Corbyn and Abbott so that's one of the list

[Brin]

I have spent a lot of my time criticising the Tories - and I will continue to do so. I have also spent a lot of my time criticising Labour - and I will also continue to do so.

But Theresa May has come out and said what millions of people are thinking and want. Longer prison sentences for terrorists, easier for the authorities to deport terrorists, more powers to monitor potential terrorists, and changes to human rights laws to get the b@stards.

Jeremy Corbyn is too afraid, and also too in bed with the terrorists. Fack Corbyn. A vote for Labour is a vote for more terrorism.

Watch the video:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/jun/06/theresa-may-we-will-change-human-rights-laws-to-crack-down-on-terrorism-video

Vote for the woman who got rid of 20,000 coppers off the street as Home Secretary?

Yeh that idea worked ....

[lbj]

PS : That would be Theresa May

Sacking 22, 000 Coppers.....that every expert says has made our security problems worse as the BOBBY ON THE STREET GETS THE INFORMATION OFF THE STREETS !

22, 000......so the rich can buy a better car !

The rich arn't seeing too much AUSTERITY !

Are they ?

[lbj]

Conserve.....ative:
Verb:
protect - something, especially THE ESTABLISHMENT and / or rich peoples way of life from harm or destruction.

10 bob millionaires ( of which there are many ) have forgotten that WITHOUT* unions and particularly WITHOUT the LABOUR party.

We would be paying doctors bills weekly

We would be on penny's per hour

We would be hanging around factory gates waiting for a nod from a basted factory owner to work a day for a pittance.....( actually those days are here again )

We would have ZERO HEALTH AND SAFETY.

We would not have paid holidays

We would not have the NHS

We would have poor schools with poor infrastructure and sacking teachers....
( actually those days are here again )

We would have MORE BOBBY'S ON THE STREET !

The list is endless of what LABOUR HAS DONE FOR THE COUNTRIES ( PEOPLE'S ) BENEFIT......AND what the TORIES WANT TO DISMANTLE.... to save the rich paying TAX !

Short sighted - selfish - stupid - propaganda - needs identifying and disseminatin for what it is.....BULL to get a vote then they'll do something else.

Tories want open borders so big business can have an abundance of CHEAP WORKERS....

VOTE LABOUR UNLESS YOU WANT OUR LIVES TO GO DOWN THE PAN AND THE SALES OF LUXURY CARS TO HIT NEW HIGHS......

OH... YOU THINK YOU CAN HAVE A LUXURY CAR......

WAIT UNTILL THE CHEAP LABOUR PUSH YOU OUR OF THE JOBS MARKET.

PS: Have we signed anyone....lol

What a crap topic on a football board !

Shame !

Jeremy Corbyn is a good man and he's being attacked by the media at every turn and he's still doing OK....

T MAY is a proven destroyer of our security.....and she told the police federation to "Stop crying WOLF"

Those coppers ( she sacked ) might have stopped those attacks )

Vote Labour - DON'T trust May

[Pattylallacks2]

Vote for the woman who got rid of 20,000 coppers off the street as Home Secretary?

Yeh that idea worked ....

And for the woman who told the police to stop crying wolf

[lbj]

May - cut 22,000 coppers....

May - cut 22,000 coppers....

May - cut 22,000 coppers....

May - cut 22,000 coppers....

EVERY EXPERT HAS SAID THIS HAS UNDERMINED OUR COUNTRIES SECURITY !

And she BELIEVE's in these cuts....

That means she's fundamentally ......
WRONG ! ! !

SHE WAS WARNED - BUT STILL DID IT !

RC WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS....HE WOULD HAVE SPENT ......OUR TAX....FOR THE MANY ( FOR US )

NOT THE FEW !

GET REAL !

[millertop]

Give opinions but People shouldn't be telling you who to vote for ffs

Look at the whole picture, read the manifestos (some still can't take brexit)

Think what's best for you.

get voting

[ragingpup]

I have spent a lot of my time criticising the Tories - and I will continue to do so. I have also spent a lot of my time criticising Labour - and I will also continue to do so.

But Theresa May has come out and said what millions of people are thinking and want. Longer prison sentences for terrorists, easier for the authorities to deport terrorists, more powers to monitor potential terrorists, and changes to human rights laws to get the b@stards.

Jeremy Corbyn is too afraid, and also too in bed with the terrorists. Fack Corbyn. A vote for Labour is a vote for more terrorism.

Watch the video:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/jun/06/theresa-may-we-will-change-human-rights-laws-to-crack-down-on-terrorism-video

Blimey - are votes this easily won?

A quick knee jerk soundbite to respond to the people's fears and go hand in hand with May's lies and inaction over border control.

Go on her record in office, as Home Secretary and PM - she has massively weakened our national security with her needless choice of austerity choice, she has increased immigration, and has shown through her continued unchanging levels of non-EU (that she has had SIX years of full control over) immigration that there will be NO CHANGES in immigration levels. She has also shown, through the last few weeks of her campaign where she has shown herself to be such a liability to the Tory party that they won't even let her be put into any significant public debate, and when she IS WEAK!! There is no way that she should be allowed to go anywhere near serious negotiations with the EU - she is RUBBISH!

Labour or Greens look far stronger bets for increasing front line security by reinstating police levels and cutting links with overseas agencies that support ISIS. May is funding the ISIS supporters, Quatar and Saudi leaders who are directly funding the people who are trying to kill us. How does this deserve your vote???

Gosh, so easy for her...

[ragingpup]

And as for May using desperate means to both limit damage on her failure to protect us whilst playing up to the far right with her pledge to 'change the laws so we can stop them' consider this: the laws are not the problem - the police have the anti terrorism powers they need (May herself has repeated this) to detain suspicious activists - there is nothing in the laws to stop them. The laws ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. The problem is simply feet on the ground to cover all of the 1000s of reported cases, to monitor properly. The problem is with the police cuts, where those of us that work with the police can see for ourselves the lack of police bodies working with us and the Muslim groups.

She can't get away with it this easily!

Can she???

[gwru]

May will get in, hope it's not a landslide. Then there can be some opposition to her plans to take the heating allowance off most pensioners. Same people are penalized all the time. People who've never worked or certain disabled people are better off. By certain disabled people. Don't mean real disabled people, they can have all the help/money they need. Mean these that's that disabled they can get up airplane steps, drive round in the best cars.

[lbj]

Absolutely Miller....!

Do your own research....then vote LABOUR....LOL....

It would help if the Tories hadn't decimated schools and the schools could teach real history.....

Real history would teach people the Tories are bad people....and voting Tory leads to getting syphilis.....

Only saying....lol....😊

[Lasterman]

Conserve.....ative:
Verb:
protect - something, especially THE ESTABLISHMENT and / or rich peoples way of life from harm or destruction.

10 bob millionaires ( of which there are many ) have forgotten that WITHOUT* unions and particularly WITHOUT the LABOUR party.

We would be paying doctors bills weekly

We would be on penny's per hour

We would be hanging around factory gates waiting for a nod from a basted factory owner to work a day for a pittance.....( actually those days are here again )

We would have ZERO HEALTH AND SAFETY.

We would not have paid holidays

We would not have the NHS

We would have poor schools with poor infrastructure and sacking teachers....
( actually those days are here again )

We would have MORE BOBBY'S ON THE STREET !

The list is endless of what LABOUR HAS DONE FOR THE COUNTRIES ( PEOPLE'S ) BENEFIT......AND what the TORIES WANT TO DISMANTLE.... to save the rich paying TAX !

Short sighted - selfish - stupid - propaganda - needs identifying and disseminatin for what it is.....BULL to get a vote then they'll do something else.

Tories want open borders so big business can have an abundance of CHEAP WORKERS....

VOTE LABOUR UNLESS YOU WANT OUR LIVES TO GO DOWN THE PAN AND THE SALES OF LUXURY CARS TO HIT NEW HIGHS......

OH... YOU THINK YOU CAN HAVE A LUXURY CAR......

WAIT UNTILL THE CHEAP LABOUR PUSH YOU OUR OF THE JOBS MARKET.

PS: Have we signed anyone....lol

What a crap topic on a football board !

Shame !

Jeremy Corbyn is a good man and he's being attacked by the media at every turn and he's still doing OK....

T MAY is a proven destroyer of our security.....and she told the police federation to "Stop crying WOLF"

Those coppers ( she sacked ) might have stopped those attacks )

Vote Labour - DON'T trust May

I think your judgement and analysis is at least consistant I view this in the same light as your assertion that we should have stuck with Stubbs!

[ragingpup]

I have spent a lot of my time criticising the Tories - and I will continue to do so. I have also spent a lot of my time criticising Labour - and I will also continue to do so.

But Theresa May has come out and said what millions of people are thinking and want. Longer prison sentences for terrorists, easier for the authorities to deport terrorists, more powers to monitor potential terrorists, and changes to human rights laws to get the b@stards.

Jeremy Corbyn is too afraid, and also too in bed with the terrorists. Fack Corbyn. A vote for Labour is a vote for more terrorism.

Watch the video:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/jun/06/theresa-may-we-will-change-human-rights-laws-to-crack-down-on-terrorism-video


Did you know that May can already give life sentences for convicted terrorists?

http://www.nme.com/news/music/man-admits-plotting-terror-attack-at-elton-john-hyde-park-gig-2061078

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/anzac-terror-plot-****ager-australia--10180006


Do you know what powers there are already to stop the free travel of suspected terrorists and move them towards prison sentences that are as long as May wants them to be?:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/counter-terrorism-and-security-bill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_Act_2006

This includes power to take away passports, detain for up to 28 days, restrict local travel, deport suspect back to country of origin (depending on passports)


Don't be fooled folks - this is just blather from May who is counting on the masses not knowing about the existing laws and measures she already has to detain, charge and sentence terrorists. She is counting on us not doing a tiny little bit of research to show this, she is counting on her billionaire non tax paying exile newspaper owners to push it down our throats.

Doesn't mean we have to swallow it...

[gm_gm]

Some great points made Ellis.

Add to that certain bankruptcy under Corbin. Never has the economy grown with such tax hikes, so spending increases off the scale, tax revenue plummet, private sector investment plummets...labour blame the bankers again and then we have more austerity than has ever been seen before.

Fantasy economics only works in a fantasy world

[ragingpup]

Some great points made Ellis.

Add to that certain bankruptcy under Corbin. Never has the economy grown with such tax hikes, so spending increases off the scale, tax revenue plummet, private sector investment plummets...labour blame the bankers again and then we have more austerity than has ever been seen before.

Fantasy economics only works in a fantasy world

We're gonna be hit with tax hikes under the Tories. It'll happen in the first budget.

Do you honestly think that won't happen?

[PeteWaller]

Teresa gets my vote. I'm a tory but in all honesty I do believe she is the one to lead us out of Europe. Can't see Corbyn knowing where to start.

[leedsmiller]

I think Labour have run a good campaign, focussing on the areas uppermost in many people's minds, the NHS, Social Services, Policing and Security, Tuition Fees... But then it's always easier to shoot down someone else's policies when in opposition and to make pie in the sky promises, it's a different proposition entirely when in government. And when the promises you make are based on the shifting sands of increased taxes and substantially more borrowing (£50b) than the other major party the key proposals begin to unravel.

I wouldn't expect Labour voters generally to consider the longer term implications of Corbyn's policies, after all we'd all like better health care, improved social services, free tuition, safer streets etc. But this isn't about going into a sweet shop and picking up free goody bags, all these things come at a hefty price. And they can't be paid for without severely damaging the economy and inward investment which in turn will adversely affect every man, woman and child in the country as jobs are lost, unemployment increases, taxes rise, prices increase, inflation rises... Us 'poor pensioners' have seen it all before.

[caytonmiller]

Made me chuckle when corbyn jumped on the Tory's/may for cutting 22k from the police force but only started ramming it home AFTER the terrorist attacks. Then went on to say
" we would recruit 10000 more police over 4 years". Talk about jumping on the back of the attrocities in London/Manchester

[animallittle3]

If it was a choice between instant death and voting tory then I'd sooner die thanks .

One flash of the frosty knickers and away you go voting for the party that only cares if you are worth millions .

I thought some of you millers had more oil in your lamps .

[caytonmiller]

Agree peterweller. I think short term labour would run the country better than conservative but think the Tory's will demand a better brexit deal.
May hit the nail on the head when she said there's no magic money tree. There's only so much money in the pot it's where you distribute it that matters if you want more in there you either borrow it, raise taxes or reduce public sector jobs
The 1 percent tax on the rich that corbyn has talked about is not enough to cover the wages of the 10k extra coppers so where is he going to get the extra cash from?

Sadly for me I won't be voting. Can't vote labour due to poor leadership and his beliefs plus I truly believe we would have been better off staying in Europe than the deal corbyn would/could get us.
I can't vote Tory because. Well just cant. Who ever wins will prob make a pigs ear of it and Joe blog's will suffer the most.

[Timbertop]

How's the economy doing chaps ? What are the unemployment figures ? Comrade Corbyn and his Communist buddies can promise everything knowing full well they've no chance of winning. How would they pay for their fantasies ? By plunging the country into more borrowing and bumping up taxation (and that includes us all). I have no strong political views but commonsense tells me I can only vote Conservative.

[leedsmiller]

Made me chuckle when corbyn jumped on the Tory's/may for cutting 22k from the police force but only started ramming it home AFTER the terrorist attacks. Then went on to say
" we would recruit 10000 more police over 4 years". Talk about jumping on the back of the attrocities in London/Manchester

Diane Abbott, before her 'illness', said in a radio interview the 10,000 over 4 years would cost £300,000. After being questioned further and a deal of hesitation she changed that to £80m - which, as the interviewer pointed out, would mean they'd be paid £2,000 per year! She then said they'd recruit 250,000 officers in the first year at a cost of £64.3m!

[caytonmiller]

The woman is mental and which nob put her in that position in the Labour party?

[wrinkly]

Made me chuckle when corbyn jumped on the Tory's/may for cutting 22k from the police force but only started ramming it home AFTER the terrorist attacks. Then went on to say
" we would recruit 10000 more police over 4 years". Talk about jumping on the back of the attrocities in London/Manchester

Corbyn made the 10,000 extra police election pledge on 2 May, only two weeks after May had announced the election. This was before the Manchester and London Bridge attacks.
May made her announcement yesterday.
If anyone is "jumping on the back of the attrocities in London/Manchester" it's not Corbyn.

[gm_gm]

Corbyn made the 10,000 extra police election pledge on 2 May, only two weeks after May had announced the election. This was before the Manchester and London Bridge attacks.
May made her announcement yesterday.
If anyone is "jumping on the back of the attrocities in London/Manchester" it's not Corbyn.

He did though Wrinkly, it was on the box and the wireless...it lacks class and dignity, not to mention respect for the victims

[ragingpup]

He did though Wrinkly, it was on the box and the wireless...it lacks class and dignity, not to mention respect for the victims

And May, who did exactly the same thing outside number 10 on the next afternoon?? "Enough is enough" "Too tolerant"?

[hotun]

Gonna get a lot worse if Jimmy Krankie and her lot hold the balance of power with a hung parliament

[NYSRich]

Teresa gets my vote. I'm a tory but in all honesty I do believe she is the one to lead us out of Europe. Can't see Corbyn knowing where to start.

Genuinely interested to know why you think this given May's horrendous performances during this campaign. She has run away from the opposition and the press so why do you think she can handle tough negotiations with Europe's finest?

[mygiddypant]

How's the economy doing chaps ? What are the unemployment figures ? Comrade Corbyn and his Communist buddies can promise everything knowing full well they've no chance of winning. How would they pay for their fantasies ? By plunging the country into more borrowing and bumping up taxation (and that includes us all). I have no strong political views but commonsense tells me I can only vote Conservative.

How is the economy doing tt? The figures that I look at (productivity/imports/exports) suggest that it's not as buoyant as the unemployment figures suggest. How many 'baristas' and 'self-employed' shelve stackers can the economy support?

We've had years of austerity in order to pay off the budget deficit by 2015, er 2017, or is it 2020? I'll see your 2020 and raise it to 2025!

Taxation is going up, whoever wins.

[lbj]

How's the economy doing chaps ?

We are the slowest growth nation in the G7 and the Tories are borrowers ! They are running the country into the ground by borrowing in ever increasing amounts and doing least with it than anyone in the Western World.

The Tories have been a disaster!

Sadly you don't see this on the news because.....Well - who pays the piper calls the tune.

Stop reading the Mail and talk to a few real housewives.....

The 'Prevent' scheme has fallen apart due to the lack of bobby's attending meetings.. .

Thanks Theresa May......for undermining a project designed to stop these atrocities !

Where do you people get the information from - central office !...lol

I normally say do your own research but some have to fight their way out of the tangle of hemorrhoids they're that far up their own @rrs's

I think social media and the "kids" will make this a closer thing that May expected.....she is a liability that's why EVERY TIME you see her on TV there's the entourage of tory slogans.....

She's scared sh!t less !....lol

[lbj]

Mr Waller is a true Rotherham United fan.

He thinks that if PW can get the job after his pathetic performance then May should do likewise....lol

There's little logic to voting Tory after what they have done - and are doing to this area and the country - but everyone has different views on life.....

Some people even believe what they see on TV and read in "newspapers"...lol

One day someone neither "Right" or "Left" will say that there is a correct way !

And - no doubt - they will go the way of JFK & JC.....JC threw the money lenders out of the holy ground - and look what happened to him.....

[rolymiller]

Irrespective of who you should vote for I do think that May appears to be a very weak leader and i would doubt if she is capable of brokering any strong sort of Brexit deals. I can't see her surviving very long even if she does get the vote tomorrow...

[Yak]

Corbin
Republican, Ira lover, wants more immigrants in, wouldn't defend us in a war basically would stand hugging a tree.

May.
Weak, responsible for all the police cuts, got blood on her hands for all terrorist attacks, punishing old people.

Take your pick both a set of lying ****s.

But the lesser of 2 evils is May.

[lbj]

BBC NOT BIASED IS A JOKE !

They are supporting the tories

Just watching a conservative party broadcast ON PRIME TIME BBC NEWS

A FULL LIVE SPEECH

NO OTHER PARTY WILL GET THIS COVERAGE....

THEY ARE VERY SCARED !

BBC ARE A DISGRACE !

Then they blow hit air up her arse after....

[caytonmiller]

Corbyn made the 10,000 extra police election pledge on 2 May, only two weeks after May had announced the election. This was before the Manchester and London Bridge attacks.
May made her announcement yesterday.
If anyone is "jumping on the back of the atrocities in London/Manchester" it's not Corbyn.

you are correct yes he did pledge it on the 2nd of may but didn't mention it again or if he did it was rarely until after Manchester when he seams to mention it at every opportunity.

[lbj]

He might have said it a 1000 times a day BUT WAS IT REPORTED.....

WHOEVER PAYS THE PIPER CALLS THE TUNE.....An old saying and a true-un !

As for "lesser of two weevils"

May actually did cut 22,O00 bobby's

This cut DID actually undermine GB security

Tories are actually making the 'PREVENT' scheme unworkable - due to lack of bobby's attending meetings.

Tories are actually making GB the lowest growth economy in the G7

Tories are actually destroying the NHS
( as any A & E Consultant )

Tories are actually destroying education
( ask any school teacher )

Tories are actually creating a stealth tax on elderly illness ( The dementia TAX)

The Tories are actually borrowing more and more and doing nothing with it.

The Tories are actually making the deficit a lot worse.

The list goes on - and Labour want to redress the tax burdon from the poor - the elderly - the infirm to the multi national companies that pay sod all tax anywhere and the Tories are actually turning a blind eye !

Labour want more bobby's on the street Theresa May thinks the Police are "Crying Wolf"

Each to their own thoughts but May is definitely the greater EVIL.....and she's had time to prove it and she has proved it!

[ragingpup]

Reading through some of the pro-tory posts on here, it brought to mind the post 'question time special' tweet from Frankie Boyle:

"All the average British punter wants is to be paid less than £10 an hour and be incinerated in a nuclear holocaust, and good luck to em"

Laughed at by the Scots! Great! :-)

[Ellis_D]

So many people just go on and on and on about money. I realise to some of you that's the most important thing in the world (you're such Tories but don't even realise it) but to me national security and a safer future is far more important.

As I posted to my friends on Facebook, I have FAR more reasons to vote Labour than to vote Tory. But I can't vote for a muppet like Abbott or a very dangerous muppet like Corbyn.

As someone posted above, a vote for May is the lesser of two evils. I don't trust May and I don't trust the Tories. But I trust them more than I trust Corbyn and Labour to at least attempt to do something to stop Islamic extremism in Britain. Corbyn will just welcome more here.

And it's not just terrorism either, Corbyn sides with our enemy on every conflict we are in. Why would we want someone who hates Britain so much running Britain?

[Ellis_D]

BBC NOT BIASED IS A JOKE !

They are supporting the tories

Just watching a conservative party broadcast ON PRIME TIME BBC NEWS

A FULL LIVE SPEECH

NO OTHER PARTY WILL GET THIS COVERAGE....

THEY ARE VERY SCARED !

BBC ARE A DISGRACE !

Then they blow hit air up her arse after....

I'm amazed you think the BBC is biased in favour of the Tories!

[kentmillerman]

Bring on Mrs May and her party. ;D. She and her party are the best at this time. The thought of Abbot getting Home Secs job and from there.....prime minister....no way.

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

Diane Abbott is clearly ill, as I've said before I don't like her, but she's been nothing like herself doing interviews etc..

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

750 Billion whatever borrowed? who's bankrupting us?

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

PS : That would be Theresa May

Sacking 22, 000 Coppers.....that every expert says has made our security problems worse as the BOBBY ON THE STREET GETS THE INFORMATION OFF THE STREETS !

22, 000......so the rich can buy a better car !

The rich arn't seeing too much AUSTERITY !

Are they ?

Good point, Id believe austerity if we had to ditch trident (BTW it's not a deterrent, world destruction is the deterrent, if a jihadist gets hold of one they will use it anyway) because times are hard and we can't afford it, we also can't afford:

to bomb anyone any more,
the Queen has live in a flat because we have to sell all her land,
no more MP's expenses and they have to use public transport,
no more alcohol and state visits, dinners etc..
have to sell off the houses of parliament and use an efficient new build.

[rileyev.the.third]

Ellis, love you as a poster on here but this is poor mate.

I'd sooner vote for screaming Lord Sutch than TM.

If the Tories get in which they probably will,you'll have changed your mind by the next election.

She'll make you suffer pal, 100% guaranteed!!!

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

I have spent a lot of my time criticising the Tories - and I will continue to do so. I have also spent a lot of my time criticising Labour - and I will also continue to do so.

But Theresa May has come out and said what millions of people are thinking and want. Longer prison sentences for terrorists, easier for the authorities to deport terrorists, more powers to monitor potential terrorists, and changes to human rights laws to get the b@stards.

Jeremy Corbyn is too afraid, and also too in bed with the terrorists. Fack Corbyn. A vote for Labour is a vote for more terrorism.

Watch the video:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/jun/06/theresa-may-we-will-change-human-rights-laws-to-crack-down-on-terrorism-video

Total crap, believes May's lies and falls for the BS about Corbyn.

Mates with Saudi Arabia FFS!

As for Corbyn and the EU, he's been against the EU the whole time for all the right reasons. May proven untrustworthy countless was all for remain not so long ago.

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

Ellis, love you as a poster on here but this is poor mate.

I'd sooner vote for screaming Lord Sutch than TM.

If the Tories get in which they probably will,you'll have changed your mind by the next election.

She'll make you suffer pal, 100% guaranteed!!!

Don't worry I'll be ramming it down folks throats every time they screw us over, don't think I'll be on my own too.

[ragingpup]

So many people just go on and on and on about money. I realise to some of you that's the most important thing in the world (you're such Tories but don't even realise it) but to me national security and a safer future is far more important.

As I posted to my friends on Facebook, I have FAR more reasons to vote Labour than to vote Tory. But I can't vote for a muppet like Abbott or a very dangerous muppet like Corbyn.

As someone posted above, a vote for May is the lesser of two evils. I don't trust May and I don't trust the Tories. But I trust them more than I trust Corbyn and Labour to at least attempt to do something to stop Islamic extremism in Britain. Corbyn will just welcome more here.

And it's not just terrorism either, Corbyn sides with our enemy on every conflict we are in. Why would we want someone who hates Britain so much running Britain?

Point 1) As I said up top Ellis (and you don't seem to want to respond) just because May comes out with a general "I'm hard" rhetoric it doesn't mean she's going to do anything about it. There's little she CAN do about it as, as I pointed out, she HAS the legislation already in place and can stop/detain/send back/give life sentences as she sees fit.

Just like she could have done something about non EU immigration in the last 6 years of HER BEING IN POWER (as PM and Home sec) but she HAS NOT. But she is still saying that SHE is the one to do something about it. Clearly, she has no track record to back that up.

So why do you have such faith that she will be more effective than Corbyn? She's BEEN in power, he has not. She has proved that she will not deliver on what you guys dearly want and are basing your votes on. He hasn't had the chance.

Point 2: On Corbyn - IRA - Hamas etc. I've followed this closely, political histories of the countries etc. I'm being as objective as possible - The picture in conflicts is that there are two sides and in most cases (ISIS not included here, those ***** have no cause!), both sides have a point. I know the Mail and the Sun etc play up the patriotic card, sells newspapers, national pride etc but when you look objectively at Irish history and the Israel/Palestine conflict, you see evils on both sides. The Thatcher government continued the old line of entrenchment/non negotiation whilst keeping our forces in Ireland. As a result, the IRA, with their long history of genuine grievance with the British government (going back some centuries but its very deep felt down South) kept up their unforgivable bombing campaign - and I stress that there is NEVER any excuse for killing innocent people.

But that's how we were, and for many more years people kept dying. Until thankfully, politicians on our side (wasn't it Mo Mowlan etc) started actually talking to the political wing on the IRA, and in return we were listened to and eventually a settlwmwnt was reached that as far as I can see didn't put the British out of sorts but pacified the Irish to the extent that they stopped bombing and killing innocent people.

I know that people will continue the "Can't negotiate", "why do we even talk to them" etc - and that's where we could be if these sensible politicians (not sure as to what extent Corbyn's involvement was involved to be precise, but yes he certainly initiated and took part in 'peace talks' with the political wing. Hence the 'photos' on which the Sun and the Mail are making the most of (in looking after their owner's (not yours) interests.

So we had a choice - stay entrenched and deaths continue, or find some kind of 'common ground', areas that can be discussed and agreed so that innocent people don't die anymore.

This does not make you an enemy of your country. It makes you someone who found a way to save lives of your country folk, and bring about a lasting peace process between old 'enemies'.

Same with Hamas. A horrible organisation but with a very deep and proper grievance about their situation and relationship with Israel. But the same principle applies - get people around a table, find common ground, treat all parties like human beings and work towards an agreement that all parties are happy with. The alternative? Ongoing deaths on all sides.

Corbyn doesn't hate his country at all. He's pragmatic and when he sees problems looks for practical solutions.

In relation to ISIS, its a whole different ball game. They have no realistic aim beyond medieval fantasy made real and this is a whole different ball game to anything we've encountered before. Knee jerk reactions will get more people killed and May is deadly here. Her instinct is under pressure cheap populist rhetoric, playing to the ********* (especially with an election looming!) to get herself out of the s*** she's created. But it will make things worse and we shouldn't encourage it. Corbs knows he can't use negotiation here, there is no common ground (although invading large spaces and then leaving it empty for radicals to take over and spread has not served us well) and we need to use a mixture of intelligence networks, building relationships with the communities, education and awareness raising and making it so that the Muslims (the vast majority are as horrified and sick of this as the rest of us!) continue to be proactive with us in weeding out the extreme murderers. Yes, we need the legislative power, but luckily for us (Not for May if people rumble that she knows she already has the power of the law to stop suspected terrorists (see above) and we need the power of maximum sentences (and golly yes, we already have that too! Shame on you May you slippery c***) so we have to throw full force at the convicted. It's very new and we need someone clever in charge at the helm, someone who will not needlessly antagonise and alienate the communities, someone that will not sell weapons to countries that are funding ISIS (what the f***!?! How can you support her? Damn!).

[rolymiller]

Stephen Hawking, regularly referred to as the world's smartest man, has backed Jeremy Corbyn.

The Conservatives would be a "disaster" for public services, the world-renowned astrophysicist said.

“I’m voting Labour because another five years of Conservative government would be a disaster for the NHS, the police and other public services," he said, after a meeting with Cambridge MP Daniel Zeichner.


People who have brains vote Labour...need I say more. Nice one Mr Hawking one of my heroes for a number of reasons....

[animallittle3]

The baby boomers have much to answer to if the toe rags stay in power another 5 years .

[Yak]

And what about his IRA connections or the fact that he put that absolute joke Diane Abbot in position.
What about the fact that he wants to let in a load more immigrants ?
What about the fact that he wouldn't commit to dealing with an Isis leader if he had intelligence of where he was no he would rather hug him and say we're all friends while they still plot to kill more of us.
Yep people with brains vote for him.

I'm not a May lover but don't try and insult people with the brains quote.
What about Sarah champion claiming on her expenses for flowers she bought for Remembrance Day cause she's got no respect to pay for it herself.
What about the fact that labour council in Rotherham oversaw one of the biggest child *** scandals in the country.

Yep brains behind that.

All politicians are the same but brains to vote that plank corbyn.

[KerrAvon]

Did you know that May can already give life sentences for convicted terrorists?

http://www.nme.com/news/music/man-admits-plotting-terror-attack-at-elton-john-hyde-park-gig-2061078

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/anzac-terror-plot-****ager-australia--10180006


Do you know what powers there are already to stop the free travel of suspected terrorists and move them towards prison sentences that are as long as May wants them to be?:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/counter-terrorism-and-security-bill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_Act_2006

This includes power to take away passports, detain for up to 28 days, restrict local travel, deport suspect back to country of origin (depending on passports)


Don't be fooled folks - this is just blather from May who is counting on the masses not knowing about the existing laws and measures she already has to detain, charge and sentence terrorists. She is counting on us not doing a tiny little bit of research to show this, she is counting on her billionaire non tax paying exile newspaper owners to push it down our throats.

Doesn't mean we have to swallow it...My, how you have developed in the few weeks since you were a non-political animal only interested in finding out bit about people's views.

I know nowt about the law, but I can't let this post pass.

1. May can't give anyone a life sentence. Sentencing is the job of the courts operating within the statutory framework created by Parliament. Some of the offences created by the various anti-terrorism laws (all voted against by Corbyn) carry a discretionary life sentence and some don't, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing that could be done to strenghten them. Firstly, the availabilty of discretionary life sentences could be extended to a wider range of offences or a mandatory life sentence could be imposed for some offences. In addition mandatory minimum sentences could be written into the legislation.

2. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (introduced by May as Home Secretary, voted against by Corbyn) does indeed create the power to restrict the movement of terror suspects. I'm not sure what you mean by moving terror usecs tpwards priosn for as long as May wants them to be. The only offences created by the act (which are essentially concerned with contravening restrictions upon travel) carry a maximum 5 year sentence.

3. The power to detain for 28 days created by the Terrorism Act 2006 (voted against by Corbyn) was replaced by 14 days by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which was introduced by the coalition government.

That tiny bit of research is very useful.

[KerrAvon]

Stephen Hawking, regularly referred to as the world's smartest man, has backed Jeremy Corbyn.

The Conservatives would be a "disaster" for public services, the world-renowned astrophysicist said.

“I’m voting Labour because another five years of Conservative government would be a disaster for the NHS, the police and other public services," he said, after a meeting with Cambridge MP Daniel Zeichner.


People who have brains vote Labour...need I say more. Nice one Mr Hawking one of my heroes for a number of reasons....People who have brains vote Green or Lib/Dem:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2008/nov/03/greenpolitics-liberaldemocrats

[rolymiller]

Accept Greens Kerravon

[KerrAvon]

Point 1) As I said up top Ellis (and you don't seem to want to respond) just because May comes out with a general "I'm hard" rhetoric it doesn't mean she's going to do anything about it. There's little she CAN do about it as, as I pointed out, she HAS the legislation already in place and can stop/detain/send back/give life sentences as she sees fit.

Just like she could have done something about non EU immigration in the last 6 years of HER BEING IN POWER (as PM and Home sec) but she HAS NOT. But she is still saying that SHE is the one to do something about it. Clearly, she has no track record to back that up.

So why do you have such faith that she will be more effective than Corbyn? She's BEEN in power, he has not. She has proved that she will not deliver on what you guys dearly want and are basing your votes on. He hasn't had the chance.

Point 2: On Corbyn - IRA - Hamas etc. I've followed this closely, political histories of the countries etc. I'm being as objective as possible - The picture in conflicts is that there are two sides and in most cases (ISIS not included here, those ***** have no cause!), both sides have a point. I know the Mail and the Sun etc play up the patriotic card, sells newspapers, national pride etc but when you look objectively at Irish history and the Israel/Palestine conflict, you see evils on both sides. The Thatcher government continued the old line of entrenchment/non negotiation whilst keeping our forces in Ireland. As a result, the IRA, with their long history of genuine grievance with the British government (going back some centuries but its very deep felt down South) kept up their unforgivable bombing campaign - and I stress that there is NEVER any excuse for killing innocent people.

But that's how we were, and for many more years people kept dying. Until thankfully, politicians on our side (wasn't it Mo Mowlan etc) started actually talking to the political wing on the IRA, and in return we were listened to and eventually a settlwmwnt was reached that as far as I can see didn't put the British out of sorts but pacified the Irish to the extent that they stopped bombing and killing innocent people.

I know that people will continue the "Can't negotiate", "why do we even talk to them" etc - and that's where we could be if these sensible politicians (not sure as to what extent Corbyn's involvement was involved to be precise, but yes he certainly initiated and took part in 'peace talks' with the political wing. Hence the 'photos' on which the Sun and the Mail are making the most of (in looking after their owner's (not yours) interests.

So we had a choice - stay entrenched and deaths continue, or find some kind of 'common ground', areas that can be discussed and agreed so that innocent people don't die anymore.

This does not make you an enemy of your country. It makes you someone who found a way to save lives of your country folk, and bring about a lasting peace process between old 'enemies'.

Same with Hamas. A horrible organisation but with a very deep and proper grievance about their situation and relationship with Israel. But the same principle applies - get people around a table, find common ground, treat all parties like human beings and work towards an agreement that all parties are happy with. The alternative? Ongoing deaths on all sides.

Corbyn doesn't hate his country at all. He's pragmatic and when he sees problems looks for practical solutions.

In relation to ISIS, its a whole different ball game. They have no realistic aim beyond medieval fantasy made real and this is a whole different ball game to anything we've encountered before. Knee jerk reactions will get more people killed and May is deadly here. Her instinct is under pressure cheap populist rhetoric, playing to the ********* (especially with an election looming!) to get herself out of the s*** she's created. But it will make things worse and we shouldn't encourage it. Corbs knows he can't use negotiation here, there is no common ground (although invading large spaces and then leaving it empty for radicals to take over and spread has not served us well) and we need to use a mixture of intelligence networks, building relationships with the communities, education and awareness raising and making it so that the Muslims (the vast majority are as horrified and sick of this as the rest of us!) continue to be proactive with us in weeding out the extreme murderers. Yes, we need the legislative power, but luckily for us (Not for May if people rumble that she knows she already has the power of the law to stop suspected terrorists (see above) and we need the power of maximum sentences (and golly yes, we already have that too! Shame on you May you slippery c***) so we have to throw full force at the convicted. It's very new and we need someone clever in charge at the helm, someone who will not needlessly antagonise and alienate the communities, someone that will not sell weapons to countries that are funding ISIS (what the f***!?! How can you support her? Damn!).I appreciate that the spin put out by Labour is that Corbyn was 'opening dialogue' with the IRA and Hamas. The evidence demonstrates that he was openly expressing support for the former and describing that latter as his friends.

[Yak]

Not answering my post about Corbin Roly ?

I wonder why ?

[KerrAvon]

Diane Abbott is clearly ill, as I've said before I don't like her, but she's been nothing like herself doing interviews etc..Abbott has clearly been sidelined due to her ability to put her foot in it for the Labour campaign. The prospect of her as Home Secretary - with responsibility for the police, GCHQ and security services should provide pause for thought for anyone thinking of voting for that party.

[rolymiller]

Not a big fan of Abbott myself but I think she is genuinely Ill. In saying that you only have to look at boris for the Tories to know that all party's have their liabilitys. He is a feckin clown and would be better employed in a circus along with the nob head in the white house. How can anybody take what he says as serious.

Yak old boy I had no idea you were talking to me I shall read your post forthwith.

[Exiletyke]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/election-tory-strong-stable-van-overturns-conservatives-theresa-may-advert-a7776136.html

Prophetic or what?

[lbj]

To answer the "Screaming Lord Sutch" voting question......

Well I would be drawn towards voting for him but it would be a purely selfish vote.

I once met him campaigning - I shook his hand and he gave me a £5 MILLION NOTE !

Vote him in and cash it in on the first day.....still have it but the bank won't cash it without him being in power...mmmmm

[ragingpup]

Dear Kerr,

Lovely company you keep on the right side of these boards.

The proof of the pudding etc. The ceasefire and a stop to English deaths.

Dimplomatic tone, challenge to your own government when there are two sides to a conflict and therefore quotes to be milked twenty odd years later in a 14 page tabloid splatter fest to see off a candidate that would most likely have lost anyway.

Makes you feel proud doesn't it?

But the end point: continue to throw as much mud as you like old lad, along with your friends in here (!), Corbyn took part (a small part) in a process that led to a ceasefire and no more English deaths.

Would you have preferred the deaths to have continued? That was the alternative.

[Acido]

After all those comments on the Tommy Robinson thread on here recently Ellis, Im surprised to see you post that about voting for the Cons.
Ive posted on various boards tonight that Im not going to vote tomorrow because Im sick of all the politicians now, I dont beleive in any of them and I certainly dont trust them.
Its awful that they are so out of tune with people these days, they dont live in the real world and they have let things get as bad as what they are now.
Im Labour and my hometown is as well and this wont ever change, but like I say things are so bad these days that Im not sure if I actually care whether Labour win tomorrow or not!! :O

[rolymiller]

TO mr yak. For some reason you seem to have gone an ellisish rant about what I have put. It is obviously something I have put quite lightheartedly. Don't get like Ellis you will burst a blood vessel.

[Yak]

Roly I don't believe any politicians but if you genuinely believe a word that comes out of Corbyns mouth you need help my friend.
They are all a bunch of rich people pretending that care about people who aren't rich.

Politicians = lying, no morals, selfish, narcissistic.

Now that's using your brains.

[KerrAvon]

Dear Kerr,

Lovely company you keep on the right side of these boards.

The proof of the pudding etc. The ceasefire and a stop to English deaths.

Dimplomatic tone, challenge to your own government when there are two sides to a conflict and therefore quotes to be milked twenty odd years later in a 14 page tabloid splatter fest to see off a candidate that would most likely have lost anyway.

Makes you feel proud doesn't it?

But the end point: continue to throw as much mud as you like old lad, along with your friends in here (!), Corbyn took part (a small part) in a process that led to a ceasefire and no more English deaths.

Would you have preferred the deaths to have continued? That was the alternative. I keep no one's company on here save my own. I am not a member of any political party. I say it as I see it and have no interest in joining any political tribe...

The previous pronouncements and voting history of Corbyn on the IRA and anti-terror legislation is out there for people to see and make their own judgements. The attempt by Labour to try and airbrush history to suit their agenda is frankly embarrassing.

The only suggestion of Corbyn advancing the cause of peace and ending in Northern Ireland comes from the Corbynista propaganda machine. I have seen nothing to suggest that it represents any sort of reality.

[rolymiller]

If I was to be bluntly honest with myself yak I would agree with you many of them are corrupt and selfish yes on all sides. It's the nature of parliamentary democracy. Unfortunately it's the best we have. It's just a case of choosing the best you can from the crap on offer. My argument is labour is the best on offer not because they will be perfect but that they will be the better of the bad political bunch. I would guess you are quite young and would credit you for noticing that. It took some of us owd uns years to find that out.

[Ellis_D]

Ellis, love you as a poster on here but this is poor mate.

I'd sooner vote for screaming Lord Sutch than TM.

If the Tories get in which they probably will,you'll have changed your mind by the next election.

She'll make you suffer pal, 100% guaranteed!!!

I very much believe I WILL have changed my mind by the next election. I daresay I will even have changed my mind by this time next year.

I am what you would call a floating voter. Due to the wave of optimism I felt as a young 13 year old schoolboy, and the 'encouragement' we seemed to receive, I distinctly remember wanting Blair and Labour to win in 1997. I genuinely can't recall how I felt in 2001. A few months shy of my 18th birthday, the only things important to me were drinking, pulling birds and watching football.

The first time I was able to vote, 2005, I had more than had my fill of Blair, Brown and Labour and told myself I would NEVER vote for them. So my first ever vote went to the Conservatives.

In both 2010 and 2015 I voted for UKIP. Had Labour appointed David Miliband rather than Ed, it's possible, though unlikely that I would have voted Labour. But I imagined that idiot Ed Miliband being laughed at by foreign politicians absolutely staggered that us British had elected him. Thankfully that never happened.

And now, again. I've been desperate to vote Labour. DESPERATE to get the Tories out. All along I have thought I would vote UKIP again, but with Farage stepping down as leader, I foresee them losing a lot of votes and therefore not building on the last election.

But Corbyn has done nothing to make me want to vote Labour. If Labour actually had a credible candidate it might sway me, I hate the Tories that much. Even though I promised after Blair and Brown I would never vote for Labour.

And when the Tories win this election AGAIN. It won't be the general public of Britain to blame. It won't be the Tories fault. It won't even be Jeremy Corbyn's fault. Or Diane Abbot's. It will be the fault of every Labour voter who decided to put a man in charge of their party when he is clearly, SO BLATANTLY unfit to run the country.

So yes. I'm certain I will regret voting Tory. But I have never been so dismayed at the state of British politics, never felt so let down by all our politicians. Much as people on either side hate Thatcher and Blair, at least they actually stood out to the general public, to the floating voters. Not everyone is a fanatical supporter of Labour or the Conservatives, and May has done less to put me off in her political career than Corbyn. A lot less in fact.

The die hard Labour supporters on here can defend him all they like, there's no getting away from it, he consistently cosies up to terrorists, and consistently supports our enemies. I'm far too patriotic to ever vote for a man like that.

[Ellis_D]

Total crap, believes May's lies and falls for the BS about Corbyn.

Mates with Saudi Arabia FFS!

As for Corbyn and the EU, he's been against the EU the whole time for all the right reasons. May proven untrustworthy countless was all for remain not so long ago.

Yeah he was always against the EU... Until he became the leader of Labour and all of a sudden he was on the EU gravy train, and campaigned for us to remain.... Everyone is a capitalist at heart..........

[Yak]

That's the problem it's not about the party's so much but more about the leaders and I can't stand any politician but corbyns history and his stance on the terrorists and his IRA history it's impossible to vote for him.
I'm a retired Marine so I'm probably more against him because of his history and his stance on the issues with our defence and his attitude towards the terrorists.

[ragingpup]

My, how you have developed in the few weeks since you were a non-political animal only interested in finding out bit about people's views.

I know nowt about the law, but I can't let this post pass.

1. May can't give anyone a life sentence. Sentencing is the job of the courts operating within the statutory framework created by Parliament. Some of the offences created by the various anti-terrorism laws (all voted against by Corbyn) carry a discretionary life sentence and some don't, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing that could be done to strenghten them. Firstly, the availabilty of discretionary life sentences could be extended to a wider range of offences or a mandatory life sentence could be imposed for some offences. In addition mandatory minimum sentences could be written into the legislation.

2. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (introduced by May as Home Secretary, voted against by Corbyn) does indeed create the power to restrict the movement of terror suspects. I'm not sure what you mean by moving terror usecs tpwards priosn for as long as May wants them to be. The only offences created by the act (which are essentially concerned with contravening restrictions upon travel) carry a maximum 5 year sentence.

3. The power to detain for 28 days created by the Terrorism Act 2006 (voted against by Corbyn) was replaced by 14 days by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which was introduced by the coalition government.

That tiny bit of research is very useful.

Point 1. What part of the current legislation prevented the law enforcement agencies apprehending or sentencing the recent, or any other for that matter, terrorist attackers, or handing out appropriate sentences to them? As far as I can see, she has the appropriate powers to detain, restrict and sentence up to the highest levels required. If not, then tell us where the laws restricted her authorities from taking appropriate action. Because without this, quite rightfully, no laws can change (as unfortunately for you, and most folk on here, there has to be evidence of what the problem is before we agree to such changes). However, as you surely know (although your initial post that started this thread seems to indicate otherwise), she is simply deflecting blame from herself for her part in the stripping back of the police force that we experience at ground level. And of course, bagging quite a few votes for herself from the people that are willing to take her uncritically at face value.

Point 2. Not sure what point you're making here either. Yes, the terror suspects can be restricted in travel and if the police had been informed about both of the recent terror group participants, then you would have expected them to have used these powers to curtail their freedom, or even better monitor their movements and liaisons with plotting colleagues. Why do you think the authorities failed to do that? Why was at least one of the suspects allowed to reenergise the country and go about his business despite reports from here and abroad that he was involved in terrorist activities?? This is what we need to know. Are you saying that the laws stopped this happening? This is what May is passing the buck on - are you happy to let her do that?

Point 3: Seems a strange move to actually weaken the power to detain length of time from 28 days to 14 days when we have spreading terrorism problems. Which Home Secretary allowed that to happen? Oh!

You make a repeated point of Corbyn voting against the various terror acts. Are you aware that May, Rudd and cuddly Boris all voted against the various legislation at various stages? May was indeed a rebel either voting against the measures or "throwing a sticky" on 8 of the 9 key legislative votes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40111329

You seemed to have forgotten to mention that?

So please do get back to me and let me know where our current laws have let us down, as unlike some around here, you don't seem like the type who would allow May an pen checkbook on this, as well as the manifesto!

[rolymiller]

Ellis, I will never forgive that tw at Blaire for what he didn't do for the working classes when he had his landslide. He just carried on the same Thatcherite policies and continued hammering the working man. It's no wonder that such as yourself became disillusioned with the labour party and find them hard to trust anymore.

[rolymiller]

He also got involved in illegal wars of course with his pal bush which we are still suffering the consequences now. For me he has to be the second most hated politician of all time.

[ragingpup]

I keep no one's company on here save my own. I am not a member of any political party. I say it as I see it and have no interest in joining any political tribe...

The previous pronouncements and voting history of Corbyn on the IRA and anti-terror legislation is out there for people to see and make their own judgements. The attempt by Labour to try and airbrush history to suit their agenda is frankly embarrassing.

The only suggestion of Corbyn advancing the cause of peace and ending in Northern Ireland comes from the Corbynista propaganda machine. I have seen nothing to suggest that it represents any sort of reality.


Didn't the fact that people stopped blowing up UK citizens seem to suggest that the process was about advancing peace and actually was quite successful? That is if you measure the situation by number of people killed before said process (lots) and the number killed after (none).

Are you questioning the reality of the peace process or simply Corbyn's part in it? Wasn't he Mo Mowlan's envoy? This article has a commentary on Corbyn's role in the 'peace process. https://skwawkbox.org/2017/05/25/world-exclusive-corbyn-mowlams-envoy-to-ira-and-loyalists/.

[Acido]

Is this a strictly MILLERS only thread ? :O

[Ellis_D]

Point 2: On Corbyn - IRA - Hamas etc. I've followed this closely, political histories of the countries etc. I'm being as objective as possible - The picture in conflicts is that there are two sides and in most cases (ISIS not included here, those ***** have no cause!), both sides have a point. I know the Mail and the Sun etc play up the patriotic card, sells newspapers, national pride etc but when you look objectively at Irish history and the Israel/Palestine conflict, you see evils on both sides. The Thatcher government continued the old line of entrenchment/non negotiation whilst keeping our forces in Ireland. As a result, the IRA, with their long history of genuine grievance with the British government (going back some centuries but its very deep felt down South) kept up their unforgivable bombing campaign - and I stress that there is NEVER any excuse for killing innocent people.

But that's how we were, and for many more years people kept dying. Until thankfully, politicians on our side (wasn't it Mo Mowlan etc) started actually talking to the political wing on the IRA, and in return we were listened to and eventually a settlwmwnt was reached that as far as I can see didn't put the British out of sorts but pacified the Irish to the extent that they stopped bombing and killing innocent people.

I know that people will continue the "Can't negotiate", "why do we even talk to them" etc - and that's where we could be if these sensible politicians (not sure as to what extent Corbyn's involvement was involved to be precise, but yes he certainly initiated and took part in 'peace talks' with the political wing. Hence the 'photos' on which the Sun and the Mail are making the most of (in looking after their owner's (not yours) interests.

So we had a choice - stay entrenched and deaths continue, or find some kind of 'common ground', areas that can be discussed and agreed so that innocent people don't die anymore.

This does not make you an enemy of your country. It makes you someone who found a way to save lives of your country folk, and bring about a lasting peace process between old 'enemies'.

Same with Hamas. A horrible organisation but with a very deep and proper grievance about their situation and relationship with Israel. But the same principle applies - get people around a table, find common ground, treat all parties like human beings and work towards an agreement that all parties are happy with. The alternative? Ongoing deaths on all sides.

Corbyn doesn't hate his country at all. He's pragmatic and when he sees problems looks for practical solutions.

In relation to ISIS, its a whole different ball game. They have no realistic aim beyond medieval fantasy made real and this is a whole different ball game to anything we've encountered before. Knee jerk reactions will get more people killed and May is deadly here. Her instinct is under pressure cheap populist rhetoric, playing to the ********* (especially with an election looming!) to get herself out of the s*** she's created. But it will make things worse and we shouldn't encourage it. Corbs knows he can't use negotiation here, there is no common ground (although invading large spaces and then leaving it empty for radicals to take over and spread has not served us well) and we need to use a mixture of intelligence networks, building relationships with the communities, education and awareness raising and making it so that the Muslims (the vast majority are as horrified and sick of this as the rest of us!) continue to be proactive with us in weeding out the extreme murderers. Yes, we need the legislative power, but luckily for us (Not for May if people rumble that she knows she already has the power of the law to stop suspected terrorists (see above) and we need the power of maximum sentences (and golly yes, we already have that too! Shame on you May you slippery c***) so we have to throw full force at the convicted. It's very new and we need someone clever in charge at the helm, someone who will not needlessly antagonise and alienate the communities, someone that will not sell weapons to countries that are funding ISIS (what the f***!?! How can you support her? Damn!).

Point one: I feel that she may have finally realised the general public are SICK TO DEATH of the lack of action from the government and that finally, FINALLY we will see something being done to prevent Islamic terrorism. You feel she could have already, and I agree. You feel she is just saying this to win votes, and I agree that could be the case. But compare that to Corbyn who was mates with the IRA, considers Hezbollah and Hamas his friends, wants to let more Muslims in, more Muslims = more terrorists, doesn't support a shoot to kill policy on said terrorists.... I could go on. Much as I think May is a liar - like all politicians - I think it's clear to see she is likely to do more to prevent Islamic extremism than a bloke who speaks at rallies supporting them and classes them as friends.

Point Two - I agree with the vast majority of what you say. ragingpup, you often speak sense on here. I am pleased to see you have actually realised there is no debating with ISIS. It's NOTHING LIKE the IRA situation. I have lost count of the amount of debates I have had with people where they feel we can negotiate with ISIS like we did with the IRA. We can't. Because they just want a world dominated by Islam, and not even any Islam, but only their own version of extreme Islam.

It says you joined here in 2005, but you don't have many posts. So perhaps you will have missed several debates we have had on here where I have criticised the actions of Israel. I don't support the terrorist actions of Hamas, nor them using children as human shields then crying about big, nasty Israel targeting children. But I DO feel Israel are not proportionate in their retaliatory strikes, I do feel the UN should make them stop their stealing of Palestinian land, I do feel there should be more criticism of the way Israel treats the Palestinian people, and I do feel the allies of Israel, the US especially, should be doing more to try to create peace there.

However, I do take serious issue with the rest of your post.

One of the problems you seem to be missing, is that Jeremy Corbyn actually believes we can negotiate peace with ISIS. In his goal to get peace (believe me, I'd LOVE world peace, a safer world for children everywhere) I believe he would bend over backwards to appease ISIS, and every other Islamic terror organisation. Why, for example, not that long ago was he suggesting we should have power sharing of the Falklands with Argentina? Bending over backwards to appease our enemy, and fack what the people of the Falklands think who have always voted overwhelmingly to remain a UK territory. In 2013, "The people of the Falkland Islands have voted overwhelmingly in favour of remaining a UK overseas territory. Of 1,517 votes cast in the two-day referendum - on a turnout of more than 90% - 1,513 were in favour, while just three votes were against."

Why have former IRA members stated that Corbyn's only desire was to see the IRA win, and NOT to attain peace as he pretends now?

"I've been involved in opposing anti-terror legislation ever since I first went into parliament in 1983." - Jeremy Corbyn at Stop The War conference in 2011. And that is something to be proud of, Jezza?! And you think this man is the right man for the job in stopping Islamic terrorism. If it wasn't of such importance it would be laughable. Actually, it's scary that you think he would be a better solution.

"I'm not happy with the shoot to kill policy." - Jeremy Corbyn in 2015 after the Paris terror atrocities.

"I've also invited our friends from Hamas." - Jeremy Corbyn in 2009 saying it was "my honour" to host Hezbollah in parliament. Yep, terrorists are Corbyn's friends. The IRA always knew that too.

What about Corbyn's closest allies within Labour?

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us." - Diane Abbott, openly backing the IRA murderers in 1984. This is the Shadow Home Secretary. Unbelievable.

"We call for the abolition of conspiratorial groups like MI5 and Special Branch." - A parliamentary motion Diane Abbott signed in 1989. She hates Britain so much she didn't even want us to be able to spy on terrorists.

"I deemed them to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations." - Diane Abbott in 2017 on her 1999 vote against banning terror groups including Al-Qaeda. She thinks it's fine for terror groups to operate within the UK and abroad.

"It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. Because of the bravery of the IRA we now have a peace process." - John McDonnell at a pro-IRA meeting in 2003. Yes, he really said that. It showed unbelievable bravery to drag innocent men off the streets and torture them, then butcher them to death. It showed unbelievable bravery to plant bombs, killing loads of innocent men, women and children.

"Disband MI5 and special police squads, disarm the police." - Socialist campaign letter championed by McDonnell in 2015.

Jeremy Corbyn, Shadow Prime Minister. Diane Abbott, Shadow Home Secretary, John McDonnell, Shadow Chancellor.

All supporters of terrorists, all opposed to legislation and powers that allow us to spy on an capture these terrorists. And you seriously want people to vote for these idiots? You seriously believe Labour would do more to combat Islamic terrorism? You must be on the facking wind up.

Note: I had to delete your point one so I could fit all my response in one post.

[Ellis_D]

Dear Kerr,

Lovely company you keep on the right side of these boards.

The proof of the pudding etc. The ceasefire and a stop to English deaths.

Dimplomatic tone, challenge to your own government when there are two sides to a conflict and therefore quotes to be milked twenty odd years later in a 14 page tabloid splatter fest to see off a candidate that would most likely have lost anyway.

Makes you feel proud doesn't it?

But the end point: continue to throw as much mud as you like old lad, along with your friends in here (!), Corbyn took part (a small part) in a process that led to a ceasefire and no more English deaths.

Would you have preferred the deaths to have continued? That was the alternative.

Interesting to see that you feel KerrAvon 'keeps company with the right' on here. Interesting because everyone else on here sees him as a leftie. He continuously opposes things like deporting foreigner terror suspects and jailing British ones. He said, before it became mainstream news, that the grooming scandal going on in Rotherham was just 'BNP lies'. He has nearly always come down on the side of the left on here.

He sides with people like millmoormagic, and millmoor plus a few other lefties often hero worship him when he, as they see it, puts the right on here in their place.

With regards to points of law, I don't want to mention that he is almost certainly a lawyer, solicitor, barrister.... Because it will see Kempo appear and take umbrage with it...... So I'll just say, he has pointed out a couple of times to me where I have been incorrect regarding the law. And to be fair, I have been happy to stand corrected. It's his specialist subject, he knows more than me about it.

I did, though, quite enjoy him taking a leftie to task regarding the law, for once!

[Ellis_D]

After all those comments on the Tommy Robinson thread on here recently Ellis, Im surprised to see you post that about voting for the Cons.
Ive posted on various boards tonight that Im not going to vote tomorrow because Im sick of all the politicians now, I dont beleive in any of them and I certainly dont trust them.
Its awful that they are so out of tune with people these days, they dont live in the real world and they have let things get as bad as what they are now.
Im Labour and my hometown is as well and this wont ever change, but like I say things are so bad these days that Im not sure if I actually care whether Labour win tomorrow or not!! :O

Acido, these are two posts from Tommy yesterday, safe to say, even if he does not vote Conservative (he DEFINITELY will not be voting BNP!), he certainly won't be voting for Labour!

"Diane Abbott the Labour shadow home secretary absolutely clueless about the London Terror report. This is cringe - she clearly has not even read the report! If Labour win on Thursday this moron will be in charge of fighting terror?!?
Labour leadership have supported terrorist groups, blocked every anti terror legislation, would not give police shoot to kill authority for terrorists, want open borders and generally hate our country."

"Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan was the lawyer for a 9/11 terrorist and has family links to extremist organisation Al-Muhajiroun. This guy is now in charge of keeping London safe from those extremist organisations?!?
Khan Has Been Affiliated With Organizations Tied To Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Al Nusra, ISIS And The Muslim Brotherhood. In 2004 he appeared on a platform with five Islamic extremists at a conference in London organised by Al-Aqsa, a group that has published works by the notorious Holocaust denier Paul Eisen."

[Ellis_D]

Ellis, I will never forgive that tw at Blaire for what he didn't do for the working classes when he had his landslide. He just carried on the same Thatcherite policies and continued hammering the working man. It's no wonder that such as yourself became disillusioned with the labour party and find them hard to trust anymore.

Yes, and remember I am not old enough to have actually lived through a Labour reign where I feel they actually did much for me. In my opinion, I have only ever (once I have been old enough, born in 1983) lived through governments of both sides who lied continuously, made bad decisions continuously, and were in it for themselves. There is no wonder people of my generation and younger have any kind of confidence in ANY politicians. So to me, whilst there are numerous important things in life, actually staying alive is the most important. (Please millmoor, or anyone else, don't come back at me with statistics about crossing the road, drinking alcohol or choking on a lettuce leaf. I know all that, but dying in all those ways doesn't terrify people on a daily basis. The thought of terrorism does. And I have three young daughters, I jut want the country made a safer place for them).

[Ellis_D]

He also got involved in illegal wars of course with his pal bush which we are still suffering the consequences now. For me he has to be the second most hated politician of all time.

Yeah, he is for me too, behind Brown ;D :P

[millertop]

Bethen Eddy conservative currently living in Moorgate (probably rents or sharing) home address Nuneaton candidate for Rover Valley.

Things like that piss me off

[gm_gm]

Bethen Eddy conservative currently living in Moorgate (probably rents or sharing) home address Nuneaton candidate for Rover Valley.

Things like that piss me off

He's just received 4 votes from our household...good luck to him

[ragingpup]

Interesting to see that you feel KerrAvon 'keeps company with the right' on here. Interesting because everyone else on here sees him as a leftie. He continuously opposes things like deporting foreigner terror suspects and jailing British ones. He said, before it became mainstream news, that the grooming scandal going on in Rotherham was just 'BNP lies'. He has nearly always come down on the side of the left on here.

He sides with people like millmoormagic, and millmoor plus a few other lefties often hero worship him when he, as they see it, puts the right on here in their place.

With regards to points of law, I don't want to mention that he is almost certainly a lawyer, solicitor, barrister.... Because it will see Kempo appear and take umbrage with it...... So I'll just say, he has pointed out a couple of times to me where I have been incorrect regarding the law. And to be fair, I have been happy to stand corrected. It's his specialist subject, he knows more than me about it.

I did, though, quite enjoy him taking a leftie to task regarding the law, for once!


Yes, I was aware of the conflicts with Kerr and some of the people on here. I was just teasing him.

Yes, I respect his overall viewpoints and attention to detail. Very opposed to his political viewpoints but he does generlly back up his reasons. Which is far more than many people on here that when I ask even slight questions about their opinions, slight challenges, I consistently get very little response (not yourself I must add). It does lead me to believe that they have swallowed press headlines uncritically and back up their viewpoint. I respect the likes of yourself (although hugely disagree on major issues (I'll get back to you on Corbyn and terrorism shortly), Kerr and even the likes of Robinson when he speaks calmly and thinks things through.

You may notice I put a question to Kerr about where May feels that the laws have prevented her law enforcement agencies from stopping terrorist atrocities, and so justifying her stance on "enough is enough" and leading us to believe that the laws are the problem, not her application of existing laws and cutting back of police numbers to operate these laws at ground level. It was yourself that in your opening post to this thread, felt that May's words had convinced you to vote tory, that she understands. I countered this argument that May had little option but to do a 'soundbite' to deflect attention away from her failure to counter terrorism in her 7 years at the forefront of power. I asked why are you so ready to take her on trust that she will now act positively and dedicate resources to this public service when all records show that her party has only taken resources from this and the other public services? It's not about Corbyn, its about how you seem to be so readily and almost enthusiastically swayed (going to the trouble of starting a thread is quite committed!) but what seems to be, looking at her record of actions on this and immigration, another cheap, empty, self serving soundbite?

(sorry if post not very cohesive, keep getting work thrown at me!)

[Ellis_D]

Yes, I was aware of the conflicts with Kerr and some of the people on here. I was just teasing him.

Yes, I respect his overall viewpoints and attention to detail. Very opposed to his political viewpoints but he does generlly back up his reasons. Which is far more than many people on here that when I ask even slight questions about their opinions, slight challenges, I consistently get very little response (not yourself I must add). It does lead me to believe that they have swallowed press headlines uncritically and back up their viewpoint. I respect the likes of yourself (although hugely disagree on major issues (I'll get back to you on Corbyn and terrorism shortly), Kerr and even the likes of Robinson when he speaks calmly and thinks things through.

You may notice I put a question to Kerr about where May feels that the laws have prevented her law enforcement agencies from stopping terrorist atrocities, and so justifying her stance on "enough is enough" and leading us to believe that the laws are the problem, not her application of existing laws and cutting back of police numbers to operate these laws at ground level. It was yourself that in your opening post to this thread, felt that May's words had convinced you to vote tory, that she understands. I countered this argument that May had little option but to do a 'soundbite' to deflect attention away from her failure to counter terrorism in her 7 years at the forefront of power. I asked why are you so ready to take her on trust that she will now act positively and dedicate resources to this public service when all records show that her party has only taken resources from this and the other public services? It's not about Corbyn, its about how you seem to be so readily and almost enthusiastically swayed (going to the trouble of starting a thread is quite committed!) but what seems to be, looking at her record of actions on this and immigration, another cheap, empty, self serving soundbite?

(sorry if post not very cohesive, keep getting work thrown at me!)

I believe that she has finally realised that the majority of the country are sick and tired of the government doing little to protect us from extremists, and that hopefully she will now actually start to take strong action.

Am I being naive? Maybe. Am I hoping in vain, due to the fact she has had seven years as Home Secretary and now PM and so a lot of this inaction has happened on her watch? Maybe.

BUT, I still trust May and the Tories FAR more to do more about extremism and terrorism than I do Corbyn and Labour. The words that Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell have consistently spoken over the years has seen to that.

[PeteWaller]

Genuinely interested to know why you think this given May's horrendous performances during this campaign. She has run away from the opposition and the press so why do you think she can handle tough negotiations with Europe's finest?

She has a history of being quietly determined and that suits me. If refusing to take part in a TV debate means she may be guilty of running away from the opposition I will take that. Locking horns in a TV show with opposition party members who have no proven track record of anything other than failure, is loaded and imo should be avoided. The more we emulate US politics concerns me. Might be good TV to see our politicians verbally punch each other but I prefer to see a more sedate, statesman type of leader and it's my opinion that she may have such traits. I would have the likes of TM in my trench but not Corbyn who would almost certainly invite me to climb out of my parapet before him. Can you imagine how he would deal with an imminent attack on this country from overseas? I shudder at the thought. I would certainly back TM in her dealings withy the heightening and ever changing terrorist threat this country faces. I believe and hope she will be tough and introduce new laws to protect us.

Corbyn appears weak and lacks the type of breeding I want to see in a leader. He looks scruffy, bedraggled, has no pride in the way he looks and resembles Michael Foot in his demeanour. He comes over brow beaten in PMs' question time and falters when it comes to stating objectives which cannot be backed up with plausible financing solutions via taxation. EU leaders have zero respect for him yet they see TM as a formidable opponent.

[millertop]

I think they both have weak spots but I've voted for the ones that I think will be best for us and the business

[ragingpup]

One of the problems you seem to be missing, is that Jeremy Corbyn actually believes we can negotiate peace with ISIS.


Before I address the quotes, where has Corbyn said that we can negotiate with ISIS??? In fact he took the opposite stance when Owen Smith, in the 2nd leadership debate said that the UK government "had to negotiate with Islamic State to end the conflict in the middle east". Corbyn responded by saying that ISIS should not be allowed to take part in talks". He did, in one interview I recall acknowledge that "“The British government maintained a channel through the IRA all through the troubles. I don’t condemn them keeping a back-channel to the Taliban … I think there has to be some route through somewhere [to Isis],”. But what he is saying here is that, despite his many issues with the UK government in the troubles, he had no problem with their (our governments) 'secret' negotiations with senior ranks of the IRA. In other words 'back door negotiations' went on throughout the IRA troubles, its what governments DO but obviously don't want us to hear about. Maybe Corbyn is too honest here as it certainly gets mercilessly used against him.

Is that the quote you were talking about with this statement? I always think we should look at the context, such as in the quotes you used in this post, and is taking up so much room in the right wing press. T

o be going on with, here is a more balanced review of the quotes used against Corbyn - it is actually well balanced, some quotes being fairly represented and fair game to use against Corbs, others quite maliciously edited and used: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/02/tory-attack-ad-corbyn-remarks-context

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

I believe that she has finally realised that the majority of the country are sick and tired of the government doing little to protect us from extremists, and that hopefully she will now actually start to take strong action.

Am I being naive? Maybe. Am I hoping in vain, due to the fact she has had seven years as Home Secretary and now PM and so a lot of this inaction has happened on her watch? Maybe.

BUT, I still trust May and the Tories FAR more to do more about extremism and terrorism than I do Corbyn and Labour. The words that Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell have consistently spoken over the years has seen to that.


She may of realised it but I doubt she'll do anything other than more of the same tried and tested methods that have only ever created more terrorists, but that doesn't matter as plenty of people will continue to make money out of it.

Speak out against it and want to take a different approach and it's spun that you're a terrorist sympathizer, it's unreal. Maybe the ones who voted against all these things that have only made things worse had the right ideas?

And we're friends with Saudi Arabia and Israel, even a slight mention of Israel's war crimes and you're anti-Semitic, it's brilliant this world it really is.

[ragingpup]

She has a history of being quietly determined and that suits me. If refusing to take part in a TV debate means she may be guilty of running away from the opposition I will take that. Locking horns in a TV show with opposition party members who have no proven track record of anything other than failure, is loaded and imo should be avoided. The more we emulate US politics concerns me. Might be good TV to see our politicians verbally punch each other but I prefer to see a more sedate, statesman type of leader and it's my opinion that she may have such traits. I would have the likes of TM in my trench but not Corbyn who would almost certainly invite me to climb out of my parapet before him. Can you imagine how he would deal with an imminent attack on this country from overseas? I shudder at the thought. I would certainly back TM in her dealings withy the heightening and ever changing terrorist threat this country faces. I believe and hope she will be tough and introduce new laws to protect us.

Corbyn appears weak and lacks the type of breeding I want to see in a leader. He looks scruffy, bedraggled, has no pride in the way he looks and resembles Michael Foot in his demeanour. He comes over brow beaten in PMs' question time and falters when it comes to stating objectives which cannot be backed up with plausible financing solutions via taxation. EU leaders have zero respect for him yet they see TM as a formidable opponent.


I can only paraphrase the old football supporter disagreement statement: "Tha must a bin watchin' a different game to me lad!"

[lbj]

As "Capitalism" thrives on WAR....NAY...NEEDS WAR TO THRIVE...what motivation have they to "negotiate" with anyone !

Every war could be negotiated away....

War is good for the REAL CAPITALISTS...they never get near a bullet - unless their "hunting" endangered species.....lol

The are NO REAL conservatives on these threads just people who think they are !

Ten bob millionaires without the 10 bob.

I am just pleased that every tory vote is a wasted vote in this area....as it should be....
😊

May undermine our security culling 22,000 bobby's for nothing more than tory dogma....

She's changing her manifesto day to day

The stealth TAX on the aged / Ill is a disgrace !

She isn't strong at all and JC isn't what's portrayed on TV.....

She has the benefit of a sympathetic EDITING SUITE that can make a genius look a fool and a fool look a genius....

The western world is a :

Media-ocracy !

And who OWNS the media....!

[shshsh22]

Voting for any political group because you think you have less chance of being blown up or shot,is ****ing stupid.You might as well walk around with a lightning rod on your head,just on the off chance.
When May gets in,she will say "in the interests of the economy,we are pursuing the soft Brexit option" or summat like that.That will appease the remainers,and allow as many immigrants in as big business wants,keeping us as the number 1 sweatshop in Europe.
Austerity,stagnant wages,and the slow but sure death of the NHS.The good news is that 40year old from MK Dons,might be a decent player.

[ragingpup]

Voting for any political group because you think you have less chance of being blown up or shot,is ****ing stupid.You might as well walk around with a lightning rod on your head,just on the off chance.
When May gets in,she will say "in the interests of the economy,we are pursuing the soft Brexit option" or summat like that.That will appease the remainers,and allow as many immigrants in as big business wants,keeping us as the number 1 sweatshop in Europe.
Austerity,stagnant wages,and the slow but sure death of the NHS.The good news is that 40year old from MK Dons,might be a decent player.

I fear you are probably right,

And based on a couple of my old Rotherham mates, who have rather heavily put all their pegs in the UKIP basket, and then transferred them to the conservatives, they tell me that they, and other far right funsters will "kick off" when May u-turns on this.

We can only say 'we tried to warn you' and pointed out May's history of non action on the very issues (immigration and national security) - they'll have no one to blame but themselves, and have no right to 'kick off' with mass disturbance.

I asked this on an earlier similar post: for you guys that are backing May on her promise of sorting out immigration - how do you think you and people who have backed May will respond if (I'll be charitable and say 'if'!) she does a U turn and accepts no change on immigration or a similar compromise that will have no reduction? What will you do, how might the 'betrayed' public react??

[PeteWaller]

The thing is boys and girls, we are just spots on the planet that live on it for a very very small period of time.

What ever ya politics are, just be happy for as much of the time that you occupy a space.

[MillerBill]

Seriously,how could anybody vote for Corbyn and the team that he has surrounding him.He is in cuckoo land, promising everything but cannot fund it.

[leedsmiller]

Why is 'U turn' used disparagingly? It's a fact of life, we all make judgements and promises, in good faith, at a particular time based on the prevailing circumstances. If, over time, those circumstances change then we adjust our stance or opinions accordingly. It's not a crime it's a sensible, logical, everyday reasoned response to differing conditions. What would be criminal would be to make a promise you never intended to keep or to maintain a stance that is no longer relevant to the event. I'm not saying politicians are beyond reproach, clearly many are not, but situations have to be actively managed keeping pace with an ever changing world.

(I did a U turn at the weekend, I told my mate I'd meet him for a pint but then my family turned up so I told him I couldn't make it. I intended to stick to our arrangement but circumstances changed...).

[Amanda_Hugg_n_Kiss]

The Tories have borrowed more than any other Government and it will continue to happen because if you don't fund stuff that needs to be funded it ends up costing more, stuff starts to fail like it is doing.

[lbj]

Ssshhhh - about right...

Miller.....do you want a really great second hand car.....been around the world 50 times....that means it's a good runner.....

Oversimplification of complex issues...

They say that "Ignorance is bliss"...but some people are just too happy !

How do you spell ...sigh.....good enough....lol

[ragingpup]

Seriously,how could anybody vote for Corbyn and the team that he has surrounding him.He is in cuckoo land, promising everything but cannot fund it.

At least he put a budget proposal in!

This letter, jointly signed by EIGHTY UK economists was sent to the Guardian supporting Corbyn's economic proposals:

"On 8 June, voters will go to the polls for perhaps the most important UK general election since 1945. The importance arises in great part from profound differences in economic policy, reflecting different views of the nature and health of the British economy.

The Conservative manifesto calls for continued austerity, which will tend to slow the economy at a crucial juncture, against the backdrop of Brexit negotiations. Their spending cuts have hurt the most vulnerable and failed to achieve their intended debt and deficit reduction targets.

In contrast, Labour’s manifesto proposals are much better designed to strengthen and develop the economy and ensure that its benefits are more fairly shared and sustainable, as well as being fiscally responsible and based on sound estimations.

We point to the proposed increases in investment in the future of the UK and its people, labour market policies geared to decrease inequality and to protect the lower paid and those in insecure work and fair and progressive changes in taxation.

There is no future for the UK in a race to the bottom, which would only serve to increase social and economic inequality and further damage our social fabric. On the contrary, the UK urgently needs a government committed, as is Labour, to building an economy that really works “for the many, and not only the few”."

Check link for letter a signature list: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/jun/03/the-big-issue-labour-manifesto-what-economy-needs



Corbyn's plans would be a different way of doing politics, simply as we can all see from looking around our towns, hospitals, schools, forces, the old way of economics only works for a few people in society. It would be new, there would be an element of risk to it, but it is not 'cuckoo land' as you call it. It will call it that in the Sun etc, of course it will: those guys will not have everything their own way under the labour proposals. Naturally, they are using their assets to persuade us not to make any changes to the old way of doing things. Of course they are. They've got the power to do that, why wouldn't they?

But fine, let's keep doing what we've been doing and keep getting what we always get.

You happy with that?

[ragingpup]

Unless of course you are a labour politician who once said something controversial about the IRA.

Abbott says she has done a u-turn on her views 25 years ago.

No ones accepting it are they?

[ragingpup]

4834

Sorry. Couldn't resist it!

[gm_gm]

Unless of course you are a labour politician who once said something controversial about the IRA.

Abbott says she has done a u-turn on her views 25 years ago.

No ones accepting it are they?

Because they are lying of course...Abbot said she wanted to see British Soldiers dead!

[ragingpup]

Because they are lying of course...Abbot said she wanted to see British Soldiers dead!

And of course you have a quote to back that up?!

And May is lying too?

[gm_gm]

And of course you have a quote to back that up?!

And May is lying too?

Andrew Marr show on iplayer

[lbj]

Grow up boys - you simply have to filter out some of the more obvious sh!t the papers say.....

It's embarrassing !

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

Unless of course you are a labour politician who once said something controversial about the IRA.

Abbott says she has done a u-turn on her views 25 years ago.

No ones accepting it are they?

Leopards and spots springs to mind

[ragingpup]

"I've been involved in opposing anti-terror legislation ever since I first went into parliament in 1983." - Jeremy Corbyn at Stop The War conference in 2011. And that is something to be proud of, Jezza?! And you think this man is the right man for the job in stopping Islamic terrorism. If it wasn't of such importance it would be laughable. Actually, it's scary that you think he would be a better solution.

"I'm not happy with the shoot to kill policy." - Jeremy Corbyn in 2015 after the Paris terror atrocities.

"I've also invited our friends from Hamas." - Jeremy Corbyn in 2009 saying it was "my honour" to host Hezbollah in parliament. Yep, terrorists are Corbyn's friends. The IRA always knew that too.

What about Corbyn's closest allies within Labour?

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us." - Diane Abbott, openly backing the IRA murderers in 1984. This is the Shadow Home Secretary. Unbelievable.

"We call for the abolition of conspiratorial groups like MI5 and Special Branch." - A parliamentary motion Diane Abbott signed in 1989. She hates Britain so much she didn't even want us to be able to spy on terrorists.

"I deemed them to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations." - Diane Abbott in 2017 on her 1999 vote against banning terror groups including Al-Qaeda. She thinks it's fine for terror groups to operate within the UK and abroad.

"It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. Because of the bravery of the IRA we now have a peace process." - John McDonnell at a pro-IRA meeting in 2003. Yes, he really said that. It showed unbelievable bravery to drag innocent men off the streets and torture them, then butcher them to death. It showed unbelievable bravery to plant bombs, killing loads of innocent men, women and children.

"Disband MI5 and special police squads, disarm the police." - Socialist campaign letter championed by McDonnell in 2015.

Jeremy Corbyn, Shadow Prime Minister. Diane Abbott, Shadow Home Secretary, John McDonnell, Shadow Chancellor.

All supporters of terrorists, all opposed to legislation and powers that allow us to spy on an capture these terrorists. And you seriously want people to vote for these idiots? You seriously believe Labour would do more to combat Islamic terrorism? You must be on the facking wind up.


Before looking at the individual points, my personal stance on Ireland. I understand, as a former serviceman (respect by the way) you may well tend to immediately take the patriotic angle, to view any conflict of your country with another as it being of an absolute non negotiable position. Ie. We take the side of our country's government no matter what. That's what comes across from you anyway.

However, my view in looking at Irish history is of a great deal of oppression and atrocities carried out by our successive governments in the last few hundred years. Whilst we might view something like the 'potato famine' as old history and irrelevant, to most Irish people, it was a systematic and pre-meditated slaughter of their ancestors. So leading up to the start of the 'troubles' and our occupation in Ireland there has been dreadful previous from us. And then following the occupation, we all descended into a lockdown of Irish bombing campaigns and us with some murderous incidents of our own.

Frankly it was an appalling mess and whilst we all condemn any kind of murder of innocents, we have to be objective and say that this happened on both sides and that over the previous centuries and decades, on balance, the British government were the instigators of the oppression (as we were in many colonies around the world - we did many horrendous things to the natives). And any careful reading of Irish history, remaining as objective as possible (as I was with Robinson, you know I can do objective!), can make the reader very angry on behalf of the natives, who all have very strong ancestry lines and are astoundingly good at recording and celebrating (as well as avenging as it turned out in some cases) their ancient history. I remember my dad pointing me towards this at the time and even in my early ****s I was reading up on history and balancing up the balance of evils.

So, yes, I think that many of the quotes from Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell back in the 80s when they were arguing with the governments about their damaging ongoing policy on Ireland that fed the ongoing murderous activity from the IRA (and I emphasise this was wrong in every case) and they were coming from a point of view of great anger and frustration with the UK government of the day.

With that context, here's the quotes:

"I've been involved in opposing anti-terror legislation ever since I first went into parliament in 1983." Yes, this is true and in context. But as a person promoting May you have joined with Kerr in not thinking to mention that May either voted against or didn't attend the vote for 6 out of the 7 pieces of terror legislation between 2000 and 2011. She voted against 3, didn't attend 3 and only voted the other one after "major changes" to the policy (she wanted a reduction in the number of days a terror suspect can be held for on the "90 day law" - she wanted the amendment which I think was reduced to 48 or something. (Remember this is your 'tough on terrorism PM - she voted for shorter periods of detention for terror suspects!)

"I'm not happy with the shoot to kill policy." This was considered by the Guardian article I posted earlier (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/02/tory-attack-ad-corbyn-remarks-context) as "lacking context" - it had been twisted from it's previous meaning by the conservatives. But you bought it. Yummy.

"I've also invited our friends from Hamas." Again the article was considered taken out of context by the guardian "The context explained more about why he considered it right to engage with such people". (ie. to stop people killing each other)

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us." - Diane Abbott. Yes, she said that, although to take this as referring to murderers of UK people is a wilful distortion. She is talking about the defeat of the state that at the time (under Thatcher) in her opinion was pursuing damaging and oppressive means and contributing to the bloodshed. I am saying that not to defend it but to explain it. She has said that she doesn't hold that view anymore, that she has changed. Do we believe her? Many on here don't and seeing as I've condemned May for u-turning on many occasions, I won't 'throw stones'! But at least she can say that her views were 25 years ago - May's was last week!

Ran out of time to address all quotes as got to get home to fambly. From glancing at some research earlier, there seemed to be 'other sides' to each story if you take the time to look them up.

In response to final question - do I believe labour would do more to combat terrorism? In all honesty,they would not focus so much on the reactive approach, to make violent, threatening rhetoric and have round ups of anyone who had read the Koran. In my opinion, as I've already said, that is exactly what ISIS want and the more we do it, the more of a target we will be. We know this - they've told us this themselves. Their only reason for the terror is to 'recruit by seperation', cause us to attack/alienate the communities and therefore recruit more of their young, impressionable and angry idiots. THEY ARE TELLING US THIS, it's no secret.

So I think that a labour approach would be to take more intelligent appraoches and do more of what my college started doing with the PREVENT programme that does work but we need more police presence. So frustrating when the very thing you need is the very thing that is getting cut! Austerity?! Aaargh! But we need to combine this with maximum use of existing laws (as I don't think the laws are the problem - its the lack of numbers for surveillance and follow through. But if new legislation is needed, yes we need to introduce that too. But we need to be bright enough not to give them what they want, as May did with her response - it will only lead, sadly and needlessly, to more terrorists and more deaths.

[Redshank]

I believe that she has finally realised that the majority of the country are sick and tired of the government doing little to protect us from extremists, and that hopefully she will now actually start to take strong action.

Am I being naive? Maybe. Am I hoping in vain, due to the fact she has had seven years as Home Secretary and now PM and so a lot of this inaction has happened on her watch? Maybe.

BUT, I still trust May and the Tories FAR more to do more about extremism and terrorism than I do Corbyn and Labour. The words that Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell have consistently spoken over the years has seen to that.

All this stuff about Corbyn cosying up to terrorists is hilarious. May and her cronies are all over Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia, that bastion of free speech and democracy where ****age pro-democracy protestors are crucified and homo***uals & apostates are beheaded. Saudi Arabia, the very worst example of Sharia Law depravity. Saudi Arabia, funder of Isis in their zealous crusade against their mortal enemy Iran and her allies. That’s….. FUNDER OF ISIS….the very same b****rds behind all the horrors in Manchester, London etc.

Corbyn had his photo taken with Gerry Adams while May poses with leaders of one of the most repressive states on earth. Saudi Arabia; funder of the worst terrorist outrages imaginable. Just think if it was the other way round, the Daily Mail and the Telegraph would spontaneously combust!

Ellis and the rest would do well to look beyond soundbites and populist clap-trap. It means absolutely nothing.

Like him or not, at least Corbyn lays his cards on the table. We have no idea what Theresa May REALLY believes in. Certainly, if there’s good money to be made selling arms to Islamic despots her “daughter of a vicar” morals go very quickly out of the window.

Her whole campaign has been based on vilifying Corbyn with pathetic soundbites whilst carefully avoiding any close scrutiny herself. I think we probably all expected it to play out like that, but it’s still depressing to see democracy so wilfully disregarded.

It’s very sad that so many British people allow themselves to be hoodwinked so easily.

[MillerBill]

Before looking at the individual points, my personal stance on Ireland. I understand, as a former serviceman (respect by the way) you may well tend to immediately take the patriotic angle, to view any conflict of your country with another as it being of an absolute non negotiable position. Ie. We take the side of our country's government no matter what. That's what comes across from you anyway.

However, my view in looking at Irish history is of a great deal of oppression and atrocities carried out by our successive governments in the last few hundred years. Whilst we might view something like the 'potato famine' as old history and irrelevant, to most Irish people, it was a systematic and pre-meditated slaughter of their ancestors. So leading up to the start of the 'troubles' and our occupation in Ireland there has been dreadful previous from us. And then following the occupation, we all descended into a lockdown of Irish bombing campaigns and us with some murderous incidents of our own.

Frankly it was an appalling mess and whilst we all condemn any kind of murder of innocents, we have to be objective and say that this happened on both sides and that over the previous centuries and decades, on balance, the British government were the instigators of the oppression (as we were in many colonies around the world - we did many horrendous things to the natives). And any careful reading of Irish history, remaining as objective as possible (as I was with Robinson, you know I can do objective!), can make the reader very angry on behalf of the natives, who all have very strong ancestry lines and are astoundingly good at recording and celebrating (as well as avenging as it turned out in some cases) their ancient history. I remember my dad pointing me towards this at the time and even in my early ****s I was reading up on history and balancing up the balance of evils.

So, yes, I think that many of the quotes from Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell back in the 80s when they were arguing with the governments about their damaging ongoing policy on Ireland that fed the ongoing murderous activity from the IRA (and I emphasise this was wrong in every case) and they were coming from a point of view of great anger and frustration with the UK government of the day.

With that context, here's the quotes:

"I've been involved in opposing anti-terror legislation ever since I first went into parliament in 1983." Yes, this is true and in context. But as a person promoting May you have joined with Kerr in not thinking to mention that May either voted against or didn't attend the vote for 6 out of the 7 pieces of terror legislation between 2000 and 2011. She voted against 3, didn't attend 3 and only voted the other one after "major changes" to the policy (she wanted a reduction in the number of days a terror suspect can be held for on the "90 day law" - she wanted the amendment which I think was reduced to 48 or something. (Remember this is your 'tough on terrorism PM - she voted for shorter periods of detention for terror suspects!)

"I'm not happy with the shoot to kill policy." This was considered by the Guardian article I posted earlier (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/02/tory-attack-ad-corbyn-remarks-context) as "lacking context" - it had been twisted from it's previous meaning by the conservatives. But you bought it. Yummy.

"I've also invited our friends from Hamas." Again the article was considered taken out of context by the guardian "The context explained more about why he considered it right to engage with such people". (ie. to stop people killing each other)

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us." - Diane Abbott. Yes, she said that, although to take this as referring to murderers of UK people is a wilful distortion. She is talking about the defeat of the state that at the time (under Thatcher) in her opinion was pursuing damaging and oppressive means and contributing to the bloodshed. I am saying that not to defend it but to explain it. She has said that she doesn't hold that view anymore, that she has changed. Do we believe her? Many on here don't and seeing as I've condemned May for u-turning on many occasions, I won't 'throw stones'! But at least she can say that her views were 25 years ago - May's was last week!

Ran out of time to address all quotes as got to get home to fambly. From glancing at some research earlier, there seemed to be 'other sides' to each story if you take the time to look them up.

In response to final question - do I believe labour would do more to combat terrorism? In all honesty,they would not focus so much on the reactive approach, to make violent, threatening rhetoric and have round ups of anyone who had read the Koran. In my opinion, as I've already said, that is exactly what ISIS want and the more we do it, the more of a target we will be. We know this - they've told us this themselves. Their only reason for the terror is to 'recruit by seperation', cause us to attack/alienate the communities and therefore recruit more of their young, impressionable and angry idiots. THEY ARE TELLING US THIS, it's no secret.

So I think that a labour approach would be to take more intelligent appraoches and do more of what my college started doing with the PREVENT programme that does work but we need more police presence. So frustrating when the very thing you need is the very thing that is getting cut! Austerity?! Aaargh! But we need to combine this with maximum use of existing laws (as I don't think the laws are the problem - its the lack of numbers for surveillance and follow through. But if new legislation is needed, yes we need to introduce that too. But we need to be bright enough not to give them what they want, as May did with her response - it will only lead, sadly and needlessly, to more terrorists and more deaths.

There are some really sad people on here.Get a life man!!!!!

[lbj]

Raging pup....you appear to have a contextual part to play in this very complex Webb of lies.

WE'LL DONE BTW

I've struggled with such detail in the past but now ( at my age ) I found the secret that is not that we'll known...and that is:

"THE MEDIA ARE ALL CORRUPT AND BASICALLY TORY PUPPETS....."

"YOU CAN INSTANTLY TELL WHEN A TORY MP OR MINISTER IS TELLING LIES.......THEIR LIPS ARE MOVING"

It's far more simple that trying to explain contextual statements twisted by the media to tory numpties.....and the end result is the same !

[lbj]

Miller Bill....

"There are some really sad people on here.Get a life man!!!!! "

You really have to look in the mirror and say that to yourself.....ffs ....the post from Mr Raging....offers truth of the contextual nature of the distortions used by the media....

I say again - We'll done Raging you complex but thoughtful mo fo....lol

Bill lad......not all dirty puddles are shallow patches of water.....! 🤔

[ragingpup]

Andrew Marr show on iplayer

Can't seem to find it. What minute did she say that she wanted to see British soldiers dead?

[ragingpup]

There are some really sad people on here.Get a life man!!!!!

Lol!

I have quite a nice life thanks; lovely wife, bouncy little nipper, great job and despite a sh*t education have DIY'd my way through self education and feel I am obliged to share this with you lovely chaps that are demonstrating an unusual interest in socio-political history!

You're very welcome ;D

[lbj]

"Corbyn made the 10,000 extra police election pledge on 2 May, only two weeks after May had announced the election. This was before the Manchester and London Bridge attacks.
May made her announcement yesterday.
If anyone is "jumping on the back of the attrocities in London/Manchester" it's not Corbyn.

Who said RC jumped on the police numbers bandwagon......was it wrinkly....Oh dear....

[gm_gm]

Can't seem to find it. What minute did she say that she wanted to see British soldiers dead?

Andrew Marr put this to her and her answer was " I have a different hair style now"....she's bonkers

[lbj]

Later man.....thanks for this - you are one of the few with the guts to admit you were wrong.....

" think your judgement and analysis is at least consistant I view this in the same light as your assertion that we should have stuck with Stubbs!"

And the assertion that "another Stubbs gem Fry" was rubbish.....

That's the same 'Fry' that's playing for ENGLAND in the U20 World Cup Final....what poor judgement did Stubbs have.....he brought in Izzy too.....bad judgement again!

OMG.....with bugger all budget and a late start.....half a squad to find after NW cull....the chief scout dissappeared !

His two captains crocked from match ONE

Halford - Kelly - Wood - Smallwood all off the pace ( and expensive )

Your sarcasm shows that you know naff all about football and that you belong in Sheffield....the home of sarcasm !

Rotherham for WIT ......

SHEFFIELD FOR SH!T......gawd elp us !

[lbj]

Gm.....I've heard the Tories have a stealth text on brains.....

This is designed to obtain tax from those that oppose them.....

Tories - You lot should obtain Tax exemptions....

[ragingpup]

Andrew Marr put this to her and her answer was " I have a different hair style now"....she's bonkers

I agree it was another sh*t interview from Abbott. But this was a rehash of her 80s statement about "every defeat of the British state" etc. She says nothing about wanting to see British soldiers dead. This has just been rehashed by the Sun who have put that slant on it.

Covered this in response to Ellis above. If you're really bothered, read that! Can't be fagged to do it all again! Even I have limits! :)

[gm_gm]

I agree it was another sh*t interview from Abbott. But this was a rehash of her 80s statement about "every defeat of the British state" etc. She says nothing about wanting to see British soldiers dead. This has just been rehashed by the Sun who have put that slant on it.

Covered this in response to Ellis above. If you're really bothered, read that! Can't be fagged to do it all again! Even I have limits! :)

Who do you think the IRA were shooting at in NI ?

[ragingpup]

Who do you think the IRA were shooting at in NI ?

She was talking about political defeat. For the UK government to rethink their strategy, change their policy.

This attack on the government has come back to haunt her, and Corbyn as it is being taken at face value, without the context of the anger and frustration that Abbott felt towards Thatcher's government and their entrenched unwillingness to confront the problem. Why normal folk were seeing it necessary to resort to murder UK citizens.

As said above, in context of the feeling of people trying to get the government to listen and respond to end the situation, some emotional things were said. She said clearly in the interview (in her usual bonkers liability way) that she no longer holds that view.

And that view, even in the 'angry 80s' had NOTHING to do with wishing soldiers or civilians dead.

However, fast forward 25 years and yes that quote has been picked up by the billionaire tax evading exile newspaper owners and twisted to make it appear like she was referring to killing people (hell of a ****ing logical jump to get there!) and lo! sufficiant millions read it to move them to regurgitate and vote to keep the status quo.

You've done your part. Well done lad. Your blue side will win. Rupe would be proud (that's if he gave a flying **** about you!)

[Acido]

I believe that she has finally realised that the majority of the country are sick and tired of the government doing little to protect us from extremists, and that hopefully she will now actually start to take strong action.
Am I being naive? Maybe. Am I hoping in vain, due to the fact she has had seven years as Home Secretary and now PM and so a lot of this inaction has happened on her watch? Maybe.
BUT, I still trust May and the Tories FAR more to do more about extremism and terrorism than I do Corbyn and Labour. The words that Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell have consistently spoken over the years has seen to that.

I dont trust any of them to be honest.
Its taken this long and this many deaths for May to speak out about the attacks, and clearly shes only doing it because its a general election. Once the votes are in and counted, dont expect anything to be done about it though.

[animallittle3]

I dont trust any of them to be honest.
Its taken this long and this many deaths for May to speak out about the attacks, and clearly shes only doing it because its a general election. Once the votes are in and counted, dont expect anything to be done about it though.

The tories are more interested in killing foxes with toffs on horses and a pack of hounds acido .

They've done nothing to protect UK citizens , 20k less police , 1k less border control officers and legislation in place to refuse re entry to the UK if people are linked to terrorism , they've used it once .

They'll offer tax breaks to the wealthy though with the money they've saved from not protecting you and I .

Blood on their hands , kin vermin the whole lot of em .

[ragingpup]

Hung parliamentary says he exit poll...

[Ellis_D]

Before I address the quotes, where has Corbyn said that we can negotiate with ISIS??? In fact he took the opposite stance when Owen Smith, in the 2nd leadership debate said that the UK government "had to negotiate with Islamic State to end the conflict in the middle east". Corbyn responded by saying that ISIS should not be allowed to take part in talks". He did, in one interview I recall acknowledge that "“The British government maintained a channel through the IRA all through the troubles. I don’t condemn them keeping a back-channel to the Taliban … I think there has to be some route through somewhere [to Isis],”. But what he is saying here is that, despite his many issues with the UK government in the troubles, he had no problem with their (our governments) 'secret' negotiations with senior ranks of the IRA. In other words 'back door negotiations' went on throughout the IRA troubles, its what governments DO but obviously don't want us to hear about. Maybe Corbyn is too honest here as it certainly gets mercilessly used against him.

Is that the quote you were talking about with this statement? I always think we should look at the context, such as in the quotes you used in this post, and is taking up so much room in the right wing press. T

o be going on with, here is a more balanced review of the quotes used against Corbyn - it is actually well balanced, some quotes being fairly represented and fair game to use against Corbs, others quite maliciously edited and used: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/02/tory-attack-ad-corbyn-remarks-context

It's not just that, it's the general stance he has always taken regarding terrorists, not specifically ISIS. I just don't trust him to do the best for the country. I don't trust May either. But I trust her a lot more than I trust Corbyn.

I'll go through The Guardian article point by point. Let's bear in mind, though, that everytime someone quotes the Daily Fail and The Scum on here, the lefties point out how biased they are. Well, The Guardian are the opposite end of the scale.

1. How good of The Guardian to point out, "The use of this clip seems fair and in context." Yep. But it fails to mention how Corbyn seems more bothered about how 'a “growing sense of Islamophobia, the growth of anti-terror legislation” are a threat to national security,' than actual real problems, such as the terrorism which has led to any supposed "Islamophobia".

2. He still said we should close down Nato, and I never even mentioned that anywhere in my criticism of Corbyn as I realised yo could argue about the context.

3. Again, I never even mentioned this anywhere. Though I think more people in the country would argue we should keep Trident. To me, it is absolutely ***** as a deterrent and as a defence mechanism. If or when world war three breaks out, it is absolutely ***** that we had the nuclear deterrent against a Russia or a North Korea, and you can guarantee that if a terrorist group like ISIS got hold of one, they would absolutely use it against us, so it is ***** that we have nuclear capabilities to strike back. It's another reason why so many people have no confidence in Corbyn's ability to defend us.

4. I don't believe it is out of context at all. He doesn't agree with the shoot to kill policy. Of course we should do all we can to prevent gun crime. But how would not having a shoot to kill policy help that in any way whatsoever?!?! If terrorists get hold of guns, they don't care what policy the police have, they will use them regardless. And bearing in mind most of them WANT to die because they believe they will become martyrs and get to Heaven and get 72 virgins (which is another worrying *****philic fantasy anyway as most virgins are underage children), it opens it up to them being even more extreme if we don't have a shoot to kill policy as they will be more desperate to kill as many as possible and therefore be killed. Jeremy Corbyn believes a shoot to kill policy on terrorists is a bad idea. The three London attackers the other day were wearing fake suicide vests, the police weren't to know they were fake. They weren't to know that they weren't secretly armed with guns ready to fire at the police. They weren't to know if they had a bomb planted elsewhere and a detonator hidden on their bodies ready to press as soon as the police arrived, Under this regime, the police were free to shoot to kill. Under Corbyn they wouldn't have been so there could have potentially been hundreds more people killed. It's ridiculous of The Guardian to try to pretend there is anything wrong with people - including the Tories - completely opposing his views.

5. Any fair person can do nothing but agree with The Guardian here. I became aware of these comments a year or so ago, and looked into it and saw the full speech, or the full part regarding the army. So yes, it's disingenuous of the Tories to use that against him. But again, I never used this to criticise him with as I knew the full truth.

6. I have criticised the Tories for their cuts to policing, and Jeremy Corbyn deserves to be criticised for wanting cuts to the armed forces, and no more nuclear weapons which I have just discussed. The Guardian agrees it is a fair analysis by the Tories too. I said about the police, if anything we needed 22,000 more police officers, not less. And by the same token, we need more people in the army with much better funding for equipment, kit, etc.

7. The Guardian said, "Many will feel uncomfortable or angry that he would describe proscribed terror organisations as “friends”. The context explained more about why he considered it right to engage with such people." While I agree that it is right to try to get peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I actually believe that is possible, Corbyn should not be calling them friends. He should also not be lying about Hamas. They ARE a terrorist organisation. But that does not absolve Israel from blame either as they too are guilty of some abhorrent things. Given Corbyn's record though with the IRA, it does not surprise me one little bit that he considers terrorist groups as friends and chooses to make excuses for them. A true apologist.

8. Jeremy Corbyn seems to be comparing the terrorist activities of the IRA with any bombing campaigns of the British army. Again, this does NOT surprise me. He always sides with our enemies, in short he is an enemy of Britain, a traitor.

9. I'd be absolutely amazed if anyone but the staunchest of IRA apologists could not see what was wrong here. Let's just see what was said, including the question that The Guardian has not quoted:

SN - "It's not the question, the question is do you condemn what the IRA did?"

JC - "Look, I condemn what was done by the British army as well as by other sides as well. What happened in Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well."
- He simply can NOT say, "Yes, I condemn what the IRA did." He just can't bring himself to use those words. He has NO such problem using the words, "I condemn what was done by the British army." Those words come easily to good old Jezza. And he has no problem, however, using a bit of whataboutery, "What happened in Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well." Yes, I agree Jeremy, what happened on Bloody Sunday was a disgrace. I too condemn the actions of the British army that day. But I also condemn the terrorist activities of the IRA, something you can't say.

SN: "Do you distinguish between state forces, what the British army did, and the IRA?"

JC: "Well, in a sense the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some kind of almost equivalency. My point is that the whole violence issue was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time and surely we can move on a bit and look towards the achievements of the peace process in moving things forward."

SN: "But if you are a potential candidate for prime minister of the UK, Jeremy, it is fair for me to push you one more time. Are you prepared to condemn what the IRA did?"

JC: "No, what it is fair to push me on is how we take the peace process forward."

- No Jeremy, the IRA were enemies of Britain. They murdered numerous innocent people. You wish to become the Prime Minister of Britain. It is fair to ask if you will condemn the murderous actions of an enemy of ours. But you refuse to. Why? Because YOU Jeremy, were a supporter of the IRA.

SN: "Are you prepared to condemn what the IRA did?"

JC: "Can I answer the question in this way? We gained ceasefires – they were important and a huge step forward. Those ceasefires brought about the peace process, brought about a reconciliation process, which we should all be pleased about. Can we take the thing forward rather than backward?"

- Why can't you just answer the question in THIS way? "Yes I condemn the terrorist actions of the IRA."

Mr Corbyn then can no longer hear the interviewer before the line goes dead. I'm not going to make anything of that.

So, The Guardian is the one being misleading, Corbyn refused to outright condemn the IRA, he was completely unwilling to let those words come out of his mouth.

[Ellis_D]

As "Capitalism" thrives on WAR....NAY...NEEDS WAR TO THRIVE...what motivation have they to "negotiate" with anyone !

Every war could be negotiated away....

War is good for the REAL CAPITALISTS...they never get near a bullet - unless their "hunting" endangered species.....lol

The are NO REAL conservatives on these threads just people who think they are !

Ten bob millionaires without the 10 bob.

I am just pleased that every tory vote is a wasted vote in this area....as it should be....
😊

May undermine our security culling 22,000 bobby's for nothing more than tory dogma....

She's changing her manifesto day to day

The stealth TAX on the aged / Ill is a disgrace !

She isn't strong at all and JC isn't what's portrayed on TV.....

She has the benefit of a sympathetic EDITING SUITE that can make a genius look a fool and a fool look a genius....

The western world is a :

Media-ocracy !

And who OWNS the media....!

I am no Tory and I never claim to be, far from it.

But I have voted for them this time. And I don't live in Rotherham, where I live the Tories won the last two elections by a fairly small minority, whereas Labour won the one before that. So every vote counts round here.

[ragingpup]

It's not just that, it's the general stance he has always taken regarding terrorists, not specifically ISIS. I just don't trust him to do the best for the country. I don't trust May either. But I trust her a lot more than I trust Corbyn.

I'll go through The Guardian article point by point. Let's bear in mind, though, that everytime someone quotes the Daily Fail and The Scum on here, the lefties point out how biased they are. Well, The Guardian are the opposite end of the scale.

1. How good of The Guardian to point out, "The use of this clip seems fair and in context." Yep. But it fails to mention how Corbyn seems more bothered about how 'a “growing sense of Islamophobia, the growth of anti-terror legislation” are a threat to national security,' than actual real problems, such as the terrorism which has led to any supposed "Islamophobia".

2. He still said we should close down Nato, and I never even mentioned that anywhere in my criticism of Corbyn as I realised yo could argue about the context.

3. Again, I never even mentioned this anywhere. Though I think more people in the country would argue we should keep Trident. To me, it is absolutely ***** as a deterrent and as a defence mechanism. If or when world war three breaks out, it is absolutely ***** that we had the nuclear deterrent against a Russia or a North Korea, and you can guarantee that if a terrorist group like ISIS got hold of one, they would absolutely use it against us, so it is ***** that we have nuclear capabilities to strike back. It's another reason why so many people have no confidence in Corbyn's ability to defend us.

4. I don't believe it is out of context at all. He doesn't agree with the shoot to kill policy. Of course we should do all we can to prevent gun crime. But how would not having a shoot to kill policy help that in any way whatsoever?!?! If terrorists get hold of guns, they don't care what policy the police have, they will use them regardless. And bearing in mind most of them WANT to die because they believe they will become martyrs and get to Heaven and get 72 virgins (which is another worrying *****philic fantasy anyway as most virgins are underage children), it opens it up to them being even more extreme if we don't have a shoot to kill policy as they will be more desperate to kill as many as possible and therefore be killed. Jeremy Corbyn believes a shoot to kill policy on terrorists is a bad idea. The three London attackers the other day were wearing fake suicide vests, the police weren't to know they were fake. They weren't to know that they weren't secretly armed with guns ready to fire at the police. They weren't to know if they had a bomb planted elsewhere and a detonator hidden on their bodies ready to press as soon as the police arrived, Under this regime, the police were free to shoot to kill. Under Corbyn they wouldn't have been so there could have potentially been hundreds more people killed. It's ridiculous of The Guardian to try to pretend there is anything wrong with people - including the Tories - completely opposing his views.

5. Any fair person can do nothing but agree with The Guardian here. I became aware of these comments a year or so ago, and looked into it and saw the full speech, or the full part regarding the army. So yes, it's disingenuous of the Tories to use that against him. But again, I never used this to criticise him with as I knew the full truth.

6. I have criticised the Tories for their cuts to policing, and Jeremy Corbyn deserves to be criticised for wanting cuts to the armed forces, and no more nuclear weapons which I have just discussed. The Guardian agrees it is a fair analysis by the Tories too. I said about the police, if anything we needed 22,000 more police officers, not less. And by the same token, we need more people in the army with much better funding for equipment, kit, etc.

7. The Guardian said, "Many will feel uncomfortable or angry that he would describe proscribed terror organisations as “friends”. The context explained more about why he considered it right to engage with such people." While I agree that it is right to try to get peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I actually believe that is possible, Corbyn should not be calling them friends. He should also not be lying about Hamas. They ARE a terrorist organisation. But that does not absolve Israel from blame either as they too are guilty of some abhorrent things. Given Corbyn's record though with the IRA, it does not surprise me one little bit that he considers terrorist groups as friends and chooses to make excuses for them. A true apologist.

8. Jeremy Corbyn seems to be comparing the terrorist activities of the IRA with any bombing campaigns of the British army. Again, this does NOT surprise me. He always sides with our enemies, in short he is an enemy of Britain, a traitor.

9. I'd be absolutely amazed if anyone but the staunchest of IRA apologists could not see what was wrong here. Let's just see what was said, including the question that The Guardian has not quoted:

SN - "It's not the question, the question is do you condemn what the IRA did?"

JC - "Look, I condemn what was done by the British army as well as by other sides as well. What happened in Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well."
- He simply can NOT say, "Yes, I condemn what the IRA did." He just can't bring himself to use those words. He has NO such problem using the words, "I condemn what was done by the British army." Those words come easily to good old Jezza. And he has no problem, however, using a bit of whataboutery, "What happened in Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well." Yes, I agree Jeremy, what happened on Bloody Sunday was a disgrace. I too condemn the actions of the British army that day. But I also condemn the terrorist activities of the IRA, something you can't say.

SN: "Do you distinguish between state forces, what the British army did, and the IRA?"

JC: "Well, in a sense the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some kind of almost equivalency. My point is that the whole violence issue was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time and surely we can move on a bit and look towards the achievements of the peace process in moving things forward."

SN: "But if you are a potential candidate for prime minister of the UK, Jeremy, it is fair for me to push you one more time. Are you prepared to condemn what the IRA did?"

JC: "No, what it is fair to push me on is how we take the peace process forward."

- No Jeremy, the IRA were enemies of Britain. They murdered numerous innocent people. You wish to become the Prime Minister of Britain. It is fair to ask if you will condemn the murderous actions of an enemy of ours. But you refuse to. Why? Because YOU Jeremy, were a supporter of the IRA.

SN: "Are you prepared to condemn what the IRA did?"

JC: "Can I answer the question in this way? We gained ceasefires – they were important and a huge step forward. Those ceasefires brought about the peace process, brought about a reconciliation process, which we should all be pleased about. Can we take the thing forward rather than backward?"

- Why can't you just answer the question in THIS way? "Yes I condemn the terrorist actions of the IRA."

Mr Corbyn then can no longer hear the interviewer before the line goes dead. I'm not going to make anything of that.

So, The Guardian is the one being misleading, Corbyn refused to outright condemn the IRA, he was completely unwilling to let those words come out of his mouth.

Sorry E, I only linked that article as it had A Contextual background of a couple of quotes you'd given. The opinion that the guardian is left wing just isn't true. It went lib dem in 2010! It's a floating newspaper and tends to go with centre left. That gives it a general balance. I don't see how any of the contextual conclusions they've reached are biased in any way. Seems very fair and falls against Corbyn on some quotes.

Understand your frustration that he won't penny condemn the IRA. I think the truth is that he sees the IRA as no more guilty than the Thatcher government, both had blood on their hands. And if he has to condemn the Ira, in all conscience he has to condemn the UK government (of the time) too. I understand that is for some to swallow but from my perspective, having looked at the history of the conflicts, I agree with him. And I too wish he would say it and justify it as I have done earlier. But obviously he is treading very carefully and taking advice. But I too wish he would say this and understand your point.

[Ellis_D]

There are some really sad people on here.Get a life man!!!!!

I don't really think that's helpful, is it?

I might disagree with a lot of ragingpup's political views, but he is at least attempting to explain himself, give credible reasons for his views and back it up with evidence. So even though we have opposing views, I can appreciate the effort and time he puts in.

[Ellis_D]

At one point tonight, Jeremy Corbyn became the bookies' favourite to become Prime Minister. A nightmare scenario.

Also, at one point tonight, no overall majority went to either 1/12 or 1/16, I forget which now. It now stands at 2/7. A Tory majority stands at 5/2, so from having no chance it now apparently has a little chance.

[millertop]

Hung parliament yet again

Cons losing seats, Labs gaining.

Barron for Rother Valley
Champion for Rotherham
Healey for Wentworth/Dearne

[KerrAvon]

The Tories should quickly go again. The odds on Labour getting the students out of bed twice in rapid succession have to be low.

[tony260674]

The Tories should quickly go again. The odds on Labour getting the students out of bed twice in rapid succession have to be low.

The fixed term election bill that Cameron put through takes that decision out of the Tories hands. (As I am sure you know)

[KerrAvon]

Would Labour vote against if the Tories sought agreement to another election? I doubt it.

[gm_gm]

Would Labour vote against if the Tories sought agreement to another election? I doubt it.

I agree, the Torres need to concentrate more on the free money Corbin was giving away.

On some surprising news locally


Rother Valley conservatives up 18% and now less than 4,000 behind labour ��
Rotherham conservative vote up 14%

We could eventually see labour thrown out

[monty_rhodes]

Would Labour vote against if the Tories sought agreement to another election? I doubt it.

I find this analysis wanting. One of the things that informed commentators picked up on was that many voters felt the election was an unwarranted diversion: the idea of holding yet another any time soon is frankly preposterous. The wheels have probably come off on Brexit admittedly but yet more uncertainty would be politically and economically unacceptable.

[millertop]

Didn't take long to start blaming did it ? :mad

[KerrAvon]

I find this analysis wanting. One of the things that informed commentators picked up on was that many voters felt the election was an unwarranted diversion: the idea of holding yet another any time soon is frankly preposterous. The wheels have probably come off on Brexit admittedly but yet more uncertainty would be politically and economically unacceptable. I think it is probably right to say that many people thought the election to be an unnecessary diversion, but I think it was a political necessity for May, who needed an increased majority to be able to impose her will upon a party that remains essentially divided over Europe (now over the nature of Brexit rather than whether there should be one).

The judgement now has to be whether the damage caused by a lame duck government trying to negotiate Brexit will be greater than that caused by further uncertainty. The former could be permanent, whereas the latter would be short term

What price a re-run in the autumn with Boris Johnson at the helm?

[KerrAvon]

In any event, the decision may be made on what is good for the egos of the politicians rather than the country.

[Casper64Frank]

On some surprising news locally


Rother Valley conservatives up 18% and now less than 4,000 behind labour ��
Rotherham conservative vote up 14%

We could eventually see labour thrown out

Sarah Champion & John Healey increased their majority.
Kevin Barron has plenty of time before October to get his @rse in gear to keep his 3k majority.

As per Kerr Avon, Boris the Buffoon & an October Election....
wow can't wait....Mmmm..

[JimmyLallacs]

How about this scenario.
Remainiac May is appalled that she is being railroaded by circumstances beyond her control to a hard Brexit.
Her eurobosses come up with a cunning plan.

Although not needed, call an election with the intention of throwing the fight.

Announce policies attacking pensioners, dementia sufferers, NHS and public servants.

Lock up Fox Boris and David, while you prance around bus stops awkwardly dodging questions.

Crash from an expected landslide to a hung parliament.

Result - Hard Brexit dead in the water, years of negotiation ahead watering down the intent of the referendum.

Job done.
Could be - I wouldn't put it past them

[monty_rhodes]

Sarah Champion & John Healey increased their majority.
Kevin Barron has plenty of time before October to get his @rse in gear to keep his 3k majority.

As per Kerr Avon, Boris the Buffoon & an October Election....
wow can't wait....Mmmm..

Of course, anything is possible but I think this scenario is highly unlikely. I can't see BJ getting enough support and I think the Tories would be taking a great risk to go for another election. The mood in the country is for progress on Brexit. A more likely outlook in my opinion is that the government might seek to portray its political weakness as undermining Brexit negotiations and "reluctantly" go to the polls again. But I can't see this being convincing without several months of detailed negotiations and Autumn
2018 would be the earliest date.

[ragingpup]

Oh I dunno - I think I'd get out of bed quick sharp if a saving of £40,000 was in the offering!

[KerrAvon]

Either that or they'd get their mums to sort out a postal vote for them.

[KerrAvon]

I see that Corbyn is saying that Labour won the election and is going to offer to form a minority government. I think he and the Labour Party can be immensely proud of the campaign that they have run, but he is showing a grasp of reality that is on a par with that of Abbott.

[lbj]

This is Tory politics:

A major Tory MP....want's to know why they put the issues in the manafesto that people wanted answers to like : social care - dementia tax - Brexit.....in fact 4 or 5 issues he indicated the Tories could have left out of the manafesto but still done.....without a remit from the people.........

Because on these "social issues" we were questioned about and lost seats because of our answers.

That is a very dubious way of doing things.....

Hiding.....what they wanted to do - and campaigning on the benal !

And Labour forced these issues and asked the questions - and forced the Tories to answer.....!

Social media is educating - or at least being a conduit for enlightenment !

The country ( the world ) was a :

"Media-ocracy"

That the Tory media controlled and won elections on not always WHAT THEY SAID......but more commonly WHAT THEY DIDN'T SAY !

WELL - SOCIAL MEDIA IS FILLING THIS VOID.....AND I LIKE THAT !

Lies cannot proliferate.....half truths are highlighted.....the truth is out there and the YOUNG UNS know where to find it.

Honesty will have to prevail.....WTF WILL THE TORIES DO NOW....LOL

[KerrAvon]

You think Social Media is a source of truth?

Blimey.

[lbj]

Anybody that decries the political skill of Corbyn and / or believes these media caricatures of him are still living in the world of 'Spitting Image'

Education is being systematically eroded to the benefit of the tory politicians....that being the case - and despite the kids being deprived of good teachers and schools under the Tories - the kids have these little hand held computers that COMUNICATE !

For the first time in a long while I have had my faith renewed in the young....their technological nouse might just save the world from the media barons power. ☺

[lbj]

Kerry...YES....THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE IF YOU LOOK.

Number one job of social media :

ASK THE QUESTION !

THEN....

ALL FORM OF ANSWER IS LISTED INSTEAD OF THE MEDIA BARRON WRITING A LIMITED AGENDA.

It's even worrying China and other politically controlled areas..

Information is king....and the no one can control it - that said....China and other politically controlled areas are trying - ie: the banning of 'GOOGLE'

[ragingpup]

I see that Corbyn is saying that Labour won the election and is going to offer to form a minority government. I think he and the Labour Party can be immensely proud of the campaign that they have run, but he is showing a grasp of reality that is on a par with that of Abbott.

I agree on the campaign and yes it does seem like he's being a bit 'overtly hopeful'! But I think by chomping on the bit like this is one of the things that have 'charmed' many voters that are sick of the usual rhetoric and bitching and appear to present a very genuine energy and 'freshness' onto the scene. We did some 'Election awareness' recently at our college and exposed the policies and personalities to the learners and pretty much all the students were struck by his energy and personality. And of course his student loan policy! As you know I support Corbyn now but wasn't aware of him until the labour MPs persuaded him to run for the leader position. He stood out a mile against the other 3 at the time just by just energy and genuine commitment to his policies. After Blair, Brown and Miliband (not to mention the tory leaders) he was a breath of fresh air. It got me back into politics again from my 'don't really care' drift before. And all three of my in-laws, life long labour supporters couldn't stand him at first, wanted him defeated and replaced, but came to love him in those few short weeks of electioneering. He does seem to be a repeated winner.

I would have thought, before last night, that him, Abbott and McDonnell had too much baggage from the past that made it too easy for the press to bury him - as unfair as I thought that was, that's the way we have it here, but fair play to him that even the full on barrels of the right wing press didn't stop him getting loads of seats and more momentum. I'm proud of the population for seeing this and voting accordingly.

So yes, the Tories won overall but are now severely damaged with their old horror show of Europe to get the backbench knifes out as well as a very extreme right wing voting population who have trusted her on Brexit. I'm very happy that they can wait in the wings, breathing down the tory necks with unity and re invigoration, waiting for them to devour themselves...

Re: Brexit - I hope, along with many people on here that the Brexit that May (or whoever) isn't too diluted and 'soft', that we do have reasonable border controls that protect wages but not the damaging brexit that May keeps threatening, that will be economic suicide. Much as I would love to see Corbs given a chance, I don't want the economy to be screwed before it happens.

So let's unite and hope for a brexit deal that suits workers and business.

[KerrAvon]

Education is a subject that is dear to my heart. It's the most important key to prosperity and increased equality. I think the biggest challenge that it faces in this country has nothing to do with funding though. It's about the poor attitude to learning that exists across swathes of British society. One manifestation of that is kids using little hand held computers in class to communicate rather than listening and engaging with their lessons

[KerrAvon]

I agree on the campaign and yes it does seem like he's being a bit 'overtly hopeful'! But I think by chomping on the bit like this is one of the things that have 'charmed' many voters that are sick of the usual rhetoric and bitching and appear to present a very genuine energy and 'freshness' onto the scene. We did some 'Election awareness' recently at our college and exposed the policies and personalities to the learners and pretty much all the students were struck by his energy and personality. And of course his student loan policy! As you know I support Corbyn now but wasn't aware of him until the labour MPs persuaded him to run for the leader position. He stood out a mile against the other 3 at the time just by just energy and genuine commitment to his policies. After Blair, Brown and Miliband (not to mention the tory leaders) he was a breath of fresh air. It got me back into politics again from my 'don't really care' drift before. And all three of my in-laws, life long labour supporters couldn't stand him at first, wanted him defeated and replaced, but came to love him in those few short weeks of electioneering. He does seem to be a repeated winner.

I would have thought, before last night, that him, Abbott and McDonnell had too much baggage from the past that made it too easy for the press to bury him - as unfair as I thought that was, that's the way we have it here, but fair play to him that even the full on barrels of the right wing press didn't stop him getting loads of seats and more momentum. I'm proud of the population for seeing this and voting accordingly.

So yes, the Tories won overall but are now severely damaged with their old horror show of Europe to get the backbench knifes out as well as a very extreme right wing voting population who have trusted her on Brexit. I'm very happy that they can wait in the wings, breathing down the tory necks with unity and re invigoration, waiting for them to devour themselves...

Re: Brexit - I hope, along with many people on here that the Brexit that May (or whoever) isn't too diluted and 'soft', that we do have reasonable border controls that protect wages but not the damaging brexit that May keeps threatening, that will be economic suicide. Much as I would love to see Corbs given a chance, I don't want the economy to be screwed before it happens.

So let's unite and hope for a brexit deal that suits workers and business.The 'damaging' part of the May offering on Brexit was her willingness to leave the Single Market. Time and again, the EU has made it clear that membership of the same is conditional upon retaining freedom of movement.

In other words, unless the EU are lying, you can't have the 'reasonable border controls' that you want and avoid the 'damaging Brexit that May keeps threatening'. To believe otherwise is to accept one of the lies that underpinned the EU Referendum.

[ragingpup]

The 'damaging' part of the May offering on Brexit was her willingness to leave the Single Market. Time and again, the EU has made it clear that membership of the same is conditional upon retaining freedom of movement.

In other words, unless the EU are lying, you can't have the 'reasonable border controls' that you want and avoid the 'damaging Brexit that May keeps threatening'. To believe otherwise is to accept one of the lies that underpinned the EU Referendum.

Yes, agree on that. We all seemt o be going in blind with a big hope that we can cut a deal that, although leaving the single market doesn't leave us financial destitute so we can balance up with border controls that stop cynical undercutting on wages.

I suspect however that May will find that such a favorable deal may not be possible and that business leaders will force her hand to keep in the single market and accept no border controls. Surely she wouldn't really crash out onto WTO? You think we could pull that off to work for us? No idea personally, I just fear not.

The big worry then is how to break this to the many on the far right who have really bought into the idea that May will 'sort out the foreigners'. I personally know two old pals up in Rotherham that will happily join in riots if there is a compromise like that and I'm worried things might get ugly. Be interested to know what the folks on here that are trusting in May to deliver a hard brexit will do if they are let down on the deal? Hope it's just me with mentalist mates!

[KerrAvon]

I think you've neatly identified the biggest political issue facing our politicians (as it would have faced Labour in exactly the same way that it will the Tories) when it comes to dealing with Brexit.

I appreciate that there are a host of reasons why the majority of people voted for Brexiit, but suspect that a desire to curtail immigration was at the heart of it for many people. You only had to look on this and other similar sites to see that (albeit I accept that the views expressed on this site may not be wholly representative of society at large). The difficulty with that is it comes at a price for us in respect of our ability to trade with Europe. Unfortunately, the referendum debate was not a particularly grown up one and promises and threats were thrown around by both sides without very much regard for the truth.

I don't believe that any party could deliver a Brexit that allows freedom of movement to continue without exiling themselves to the political wilderness for decades

[ragingpup]

I think you've neatly identified the biggest political issue facing our politicians (as it would have faced Labour in exactly the same way that it will the Tories) when it comes to dealing with Brexit.

I appreciate that there are a host of reasons why the majority of people voted for Brexiit, but suspect that a desire to curtail immigration was at the heart of it for many people. You only had to look on this and other similar sites to see that (albeit I accept that the views expressed on this site may not be wholly representative of society at large). The difficulty with that is it comes at a price for us in respect of our ability to trade with Europe. Unfortunately, the referendum debate was not a particularly grown up one and promises and threats were thrown around by both sides without very much regard for the truth.

I don't believe that any party could deliver a Brexit that allows freedom of movement to continue without exiling themselves to the political wilderness for decades

Very true, but will big business allow May to crash out onto WTO? Somehow, I can't see them allowing May to do it (as I think people above her have more power than she to be honest, but that's another debate!). Wouldn't this most likely cripple the economy or do you think we really could make a go of it?

[fivetide]

Information is king....and the no one can control it - that said....China and other politically controlled areas are trying - ie: the banning of 'GOOGLE'

Because actually Google controls exactly what you see and hear. If they don't want you to see the answer, they don't list it, simple.

[gm_gm]

Sarah Champion & John Healey increased their majority.
Kevin Barron has plenty of time before October to get his @rse in gear to keep his 3k majority.

As per Kerr Avon, Boris the Buffoon & an October Election....
wow can't wait....Mmmm..

Surely we have all had enough! and I dont just mean the posts on here.

Abetter campaign and I think we can take RV from Labour

[lbj]

Five tide.....that indeed is a problem....but there are numerous options that can't be edited......all the time.

And "Funding" is directly proportional to quality of education.!

Good teachers are being made redundant while the bureaucracy is growing !

Exactly following the demise of the NHS

JOBS FOR THE BOYS

AND QUALITY GOES THROUGH THE WINDOW !

[KerrAvon]

What's your evidence for the proposition that the quality of education is directly proportional to funding? It is a factor, but the quality of leadership in a school and the consequential culture is far more important, in my experience.

Spending per pupil is relatively high in the UK when compared with some of our competitors.

Education is at best not valued and at worst sneered at in some sections of society.

[ragingpup]

On education here, I'd agree that leadership and quality management in schools is the most ***** aspect, although obviously having lower class sizes and kids that come from stable and loving homes are not far behind.

I go to a lot of conferences and am always impressed by heads that take on 'failing' schools in 'poor' demographic areas and bring up the success rate. Usually by communicating high standards and expectations of the kids with consistent discipline.

I'm currently in the midst of settling in a 'high standards' approach in my own East London college with some very problematic challenges. The biggest problem I have is staff that 'make excuses' for the students on the basics of respect, politeness and conduct and that is the biggest barrier. The kids come with terrible habits and poor role models and think its ***** for them that we communicate clearly what we expect and what we think they are capable of but its about consistency and value - just as it is with your own kids. When you look at it from that point of view it seems very simple.

But our teachers have to have a much bigger skills set than even 'normal' town schools and colleges. We have loads of issues with gangs and knife crime and have to work with some terribly damaged individuals. But leadership is the most ***** thing in keeping all the teachers consistent, so the kids ( I say kids, many are much bigger than me and could kill me in a heart beat!) and gelling the whole ethos together. Our teachers have to have the skills to command a class before they even get started with funky teaching methods!

But I agree that 'easier' areas, more socialised, loved kids and less numbers in the class to reach as individuals in itself has a massive effect in giving those kids a big head start. You can't underestimate how privileged some kids are to get that head start. But I've seen many a 'well off, loved' kid go quickly off the rails because of poor teaching standards. Just as I've seen big groups of huge kids of 'rappers' eating out of the hands of a skilled elderly lady.

Funny old business, but I love it.

[Acido]

The tories are more interested in killing foxes with toffs on horses and a pack of hounds acido .
They've done nothing to protect UK citizens , 20k less police , 1k less border control officers and legislation in place to refuse re entry to the UK if people are linked to terrorism , they've used it once .
They'll offer tax breaks to the wealthy though with the money they've saved from not protecting you and I .
Blood on their hands , kin vermin the whole lot of em .

Now lets get this straight Animal, you dont like May & the Cons do you ? Im only guessing here lol.
The feeling Im getting right now after the whole thing is... 'a total waste of time' and fans/voters are already suggesting the need for yet another general election later on this year!! :O

[lbj]

I have a close relationship with schools and many are making experienced teachers redundant who command the respect of the students and know how to engage them. CONTROL THEM TOO !

An old head retired from one great school and that school has been related to other schools in the area. This has caused two heads to be created for several schools in the area and these "heads" are all over the place playing politics rather than knowing every teachers name and every kids name.

The upshot has been moral is at an all time low....teachers are being stretched beyond endurance and kids behaviour is getting worse.

A down word spiral!

Caused by lack of funds or irresponsible structural changes within schools based again on tory dogma rather than age old educational common sense.

Education is going the way of the NHS....first......calling them "Trusts"....and similar highfalutin names for schools .....

Then creating a series of top heavy administrative layers.....and consequently leaving the soldiers on the front line short of food and ammunition.....

AND SOLDIERS !

LEAVE THE SCHOOLS ALONE AND STOP THIS "JOBS FOR THE BOYS" ANARCHY.

AND DITTO WITH THE NHS !

BUT WE NEED A LABOUR GOVERNMENT FIRST.....

[lbj]

"down word spiral!"

I rest my case ...lol

[Ellis_D]

I see that Corbyn is saying that Labour won the election and is going to offer to form a minority government. I think he and the Labour Party can be immensely proud of the campaign that they have run, but he is showing a grasp of reality that is on a par with that of Abbott.

Or to put it more bluntly, he is lying yet again. I saw him say earlier, "It is quite clear who won the election." Erm, yes it is Jezza, and it wasn't you.

[lbj]

He won a great moral victory !

And that's priceless !

[great_fire]

I know young people voted Corbyn, they're young and dumb with their heads filled with left-wing propaganda by their teachers and lecturers but 50% of 35-44 year olds voted for Corbyn! WTF is up with those people?

[great_fire]

He won a great moral victory !

And that's priceless !

He won the second half as they say in football.

[ragingpup]

I know young people voted Corbyn, they're young and dumb with their heads filled with left-wing propaganda by their teachers and lecturers but 50% of 35-44 year olds voted for Corbyn! WTF is up with those people?

Hhmmm. Young people with their inherent optimism, potential, energy, spirit with an outlook that 'you can make something better with the world' OR, like that audience on the Question Time debate questioning Corbyn; ageing, cynical, angry, miserable, negative, attacking, with an outlook that 'life's cruel, be cynical, take what you can, only look after yourself, others are a threat'.

I know who I'd rather spend my time with!

As a rather splendid new wave pop band of the 80s told us - "Life's What You Make it".

[gm_gm]

I know young people voted Corbyn, they're young and dumb with their heads filled with left-wing propaganda by their teachers and lecturers but 50% of 35-44 year olds voted for Corbyn! WTF is up with those people?

Bang on, labour policies were also impossible to deliver but young people don't seem to worry about bankruptcy

[lbj]

Laugh - I could have got round in ! 😂😂😋

The young ones are coming for you boys!

The conservatives ( that you really want to be associated with ) wouldn't touch you with a barge pole.....lol

[millmoormagic]

I'm amazed you think the BBC is biased in favour of the Tories!

Nowt so blind as those who don't want to see.

[rolymiller]

Yep of course they are. If you can Ellis, have a look at David Dimbleby and the other BBC presenters faces on a re run of election night special when the exit poll news came in at 10 o'clock. Their faces show that they were gutted that the Tories weren't going to run away with it. They were visibly shocked. My first thought was "up yours pal..."

The best one was Laura Kuensberg-think I have spelt it right- who at least gave some stick to ALL mps. She's obviously a fiesty one!

On a side note, she was on election special all neet then stood outside Downing Street after dinner time when May came back from Buck House. Still looking as fresh as a daisy. Dimbleby had well gone to bed by that time licking his wounds I would suspect.

[Ellis_D]

Kerry...YES....THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE IF YOU LOOK.

Number one job of social media :

ASK THE QUESTION !

THEN....

ALL FORM OF ANSWER IS LISTED INSTEAD OF THE MEDIA BARRON WRITING A LIMITED AGENDA.

It's even worrying China and other politically controlled areas..

Information is king....and the no one can control it - that said....China and other politically controlled areas are trying - ie: the banning of 'GOOGLE'

You think THAT is why countries such as China and North Korea ban certain parts of the internet?! Cuckoo.

[lbj]

I'm sorry - what is "THAT" ?

The assertion is that China and other politically controlled areas are trying to control the Internet to prevent "Subversive Information" of any kind being available to the general population.

"Subversive" is very subjective but I think the message is clear.

But "THAT" .....what does "THAT" mean ?