Brexit talks

[oldcolner]

Well at least they have started and the so called hard Brexit is the way forward. I suppose that's because the soft Brexit isn't Brexit at all.
Will be interesting to see if Corbyn can torpedo the Queens speech as a result, as they can table an amendment to it and if some soft Tories switch sides that could bring down the Government.

[Altobelli]

Its a big mess Colner, Brexit, Tories, Labour, even the DUP giving Maybot plenty of grief now, its all one big cock up.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Maybot is making even Cameron look good and that one is really bloody difficult trick to pull off...

[blueheeler1]

Maybot is making even Cameron look good and that one is really bloody difficult trick to pull off...

"What do we want?
We don't know.
When do we want it?
NOW".

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Maybot's goose is well and truly cooked now. A legal challenge on her tie-in with the DUP is now being prepared on the basis that the "Good Friday" agreement and Northern Ireland peace process will be seriously undermined.

Did not take a rocket scientist to work that one out? :?

[sinkov]

It hasn't received much attention yet that M. Barnier has stated that we will be leaving the Single Market and Customs Union, the so-called Soft Brexit, which in reality isn't Brexit at all, is simply not an option. It never was, the EU has always said there can be no cherry-picking, we are in or we are out, Soft Brexit was never more than a deluded Remoanian fantasy, maybe they'll accept the reality now that it's coming from our masters in their beloved EU.

Perhaps it's the one thing the ludicrously incompetent May managed to get right, Brexit means Brexit, and that means leaving the SM and CU. Poor lass, it's about all she's got right.

[oldcolner]

The Queens Speech will have no ceremonial dress supposedly due to proximity to Trooping the Colour ( and Ascot?) will cover two years not one and focus on Brexit. There is talk of Lib dems backing the Tories with Farron going, though that seems strange given their plan to stay in the EU. Perhaps the Tories would concede that there would be a parliamentary vote at the end of negotiations now. Given Labours current policy of supporting Brexit it would seem a safe option. Though Jeremy has been known to change his mind!!

Sinkov
I think Barnier was merely repeating what Britain had told him they wanted, but you are right, a soft Brexit isn't Brexit at all. Once terms of negotiation are clear it will be clear that EU terms for a soft Brexit would be impossible.
I see we asked them to demonstrate the legal basis for the £100B leaving fee demand, so that will be interesting. Hope we have our legal basis for demanding our share of EU assets.
Meanwhile the EU is thinking of having an EU budget as Macron wants and now Merkel says she's willing to consider it. Then there will be an EU army. looks like M&Ms are taking over in our absence.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Nature abhors a vacuum and all of that oldcolner. :?

[CaspertheClaret]

Oh no - Sean Dyche to PM.

[oldcolner]

The Prime Minister is facing a battle to get the crucial legislation through the upper chamber after it emerged that peers may seek to ignore a 72-year convention and block new laws paving the way for Britain leaving the single market and EU customs union.

The Salisbury Convention states that manifesto commitments made by a governing party should not be blocked or significantly altered by the Lords.

However, within hours of Wednesday’s Queen Speech, which set out the various Brexit bills to be presented before Parliament in the coming months – opposition parties began to argue that the convention does not apply as Mrs May did not win a majority and has not agreed to govern in coalition.

The fun is only beginning!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/21/theresa-may-faces-constitutional-crisis-labour-lib-dems-vow/

[sinkov]

Sinkov
I think Barnier was merely repeating what Britain had told him they wanted, but you are right, a soft Brexit isn't Brexit at all. Once terms of negotiation are clear it will be clear that EU terms for a soft Brexit would be impossible.


You're right OC, he was repeating what our aims were, but he was also welcoming the fact that it confirmed that we were concurring with what they had already pointed out to us in sections 1 and 19 of the EU guidelines for the Brexit negotiations, that there could be no cherry-picking and Brexit meant leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Is a second Brexit referendum at all feasible?

[sinkov]

Is a second Brexit referendum at all feasible?

Seeing as both Labour and the Tories said in their manifestos they accepted the result of the referendum, I'd say no.

[Supersub6]

We have messed about too much now for my liking. We are one year down the line since the vote was held and we have dithered about ever since then.
Nothing is to be gained from another referendum, just as nothing was gained by holding the recent election.
We need some firm negotiations and these need to be backed by all concerned, although there is not much hope of that.
I voted to remain, however, accepted that the Brexiteers won and I have waited to see just how we are going to progress. It's a good job that I haven't been holding my breath.
I wonder which division the Clarets will be in before the final break is made. :P

[oldcolner]

Super sub
Surely we are in the PL to stay, but you could wonder about Rovers!

[Supersub6]

Super sub
Surely we are in the PL to stay, but you could wonder about Rovers!

I was thinking more on the lines that we could be in a new European Super League!! ;D

[oldcolner]

EU Commissioner identifies the cost of Brexit .... to the EU of €10Bn and expansion plans will double the funding gap.
Günther Oettinger said the bloc must either spend less or find new money to fill the gap, equivalent to an estimated 16% of the entire budget.
Among the options on the table could be less generous payments to farmers or a tax on financial transactions.

A dose of reality ... or is the last one a threat to London??
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40433450

[sinkov]

I wonder why he's pointing out now that they're going to be €10 billion per annum down, has it come as a surprise, didn't they know ? It isn't anything new, the fact that we could stop paying them all that money every year was one of big selling points for the Brexiteers in the referendum.

What planet have these people been living on for the last 12 months ?

[oldcolner]

I wonder why he's pointing out now that they're going to be €10 billion per annum down, has it come as a surprise, didn't they know ? It isn't anything new, the fact that we could stop paying them all that money every year was one of big selling points for the Brexiteers in the referendum.

What planet have these people been living on for the last 12 months ?

The EU probably thinks it is a planet ??

[Altobelli]

We have messed about too much now for my liking. We are one year down the line since the vote was held and we have dithered about ever since then.

Spot on Supersub, Some Big mistakes, Cameron thinking the vote would be to stay in the EU, Followed by Maybot wanting an election just for her sheer Vanity which cost us more than 7 weeks negotiations, Cameron dropped the first Clanger followed by out of her depth Maybot, Does anyone in office know what they are doing ? I very much doubt it.

[oldcolner]

Spot on Supersub, Some Big mistakes, Cameron thinking the vote would be to stay in the EU, Followed by Maybot wanting an election just for her sheer Vanity which cost us more than 7 weeks negotiations, Cameron dropped the first Clanger followed by out of her depth Maybot, Does anyone in office know what they are doing ? I very much doubt it.

Yes it looks like that, however nothing major will be agreed until after the German elections in October. The relative rights of EU and UK citizens doesn't look close to agreement. I'm lost on the detail. :?

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Making it up as you go along is hardly "strong and stable" leadership. Is it?

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[sinkov]

Does anyone in office know what they are doing ? I very much doubt it.

I thought our position had been clear for months now, you (I don't mean you personally Alto) can't spend six months whingeing about a Hard Tory Brexit and then say you didn't know what our plans were. Out of the Single Market, out of the Customs Union, no jurisdiction for European courts in the UK, immigration under our control, existing rights for EU citizens in UK guaranteed and same for UK citizens in EU and negotiate a free trade agreement. Some people might not like it, not all of it might be achievable, but no one can say they didn't know what we were aiming to achieve in the negotiations.
On the other hand it seems to have come as a bit of a surprise to our EU chums that they're going to be a bit short of readies after we've left. Do they know what they're doing ? They've had a year to work out what to do about this shortfall but have only just got round to mentioning it. I wouldn't have thought it possible to be as incompetent as May, but it seems they're going to give it a go.

[oldcolner]

But that's what negotiations are BT. You decide what you want to negotiate on, what you want, what you would accept, and try to find ways of getting the best deal you can.

Bit like Andre he wants £100k a week, but might settle for £50k, we offer £30k but might rise to £40k with a bonus for staying up anda a share of shirt sales or image rights or payment for goals scored that gets him there. - if we stay up

Of course He might want to settle for £75k in which case it's goodbye.

We can only react to what the EU say, as we are unlikely to both agree on something with no debate. Maybe a joint military or police approach but who is in charge will be an issue. Will they compromise or play hardball. With a10bn funding gap they may need to do so just as we will. So they want £100bn and we may say we are owed money for past investment in EU infrastructure so will pay nothing.
Our negotiators will need to think on their feet. It's all about making it up as you go along against your original red lines

[sinkov]

But that's what negotiations are BT. You decide what you want to negotiate on, what you want, what you would accept, and try to find ways of getting the best deal you can.

Bit like Andre he wants £100k a week, but might settle for £50k, we offer £30k but might rise to £40k with a bonus for staying up anda a share of shirt sales or image rights or payment for goals scored that gets him there. - if we stay up

Of course He might want to settle for £75k in which case it's goodbye.

We can only react to what the EU say, as we are unlikely to both agree on something with no debate. Maybe a joint military or police approach but who is in charge will be an issue. Will they compromise or play hardball. With a10bn funding gap they may need to do so just as we will. So they want £100bn and we may say we are owed money for past investment in EU infrastructure so will pay nothing.
Our negotiators will need to think on their feet. It's all about making it up as you go along against your original red lines

Of course everything you say is correct OC, but I fear you're wasting your time with BT. I've tried, but his hatred for Tories so dominates his thinking that any attempt to have a political discussion, argument with him if you like, is doomed to failure, a rational exchange of views replaced by a series of childish photos. It's a shame, I don't know BT but I get the impression of a very intelligent, decent, likeable person until the red political mist descends, but c'est la vie, we're all different.

[Supersub6]

It's all quite clear really.
We think we know what we want so all we have to do now is convince the other 27 nations that they will br better off without us. What a pity that they have now realised that they will be losing quite a considerable amount of their income when we depart.
Hard times ahead with a lot of talking to be done and my forecast is that when the elephants fight it is the grass that gets crushed.
I await the outcome with interest --although that is the one thing that seems to have disappeared from my savings!

[oldcolner]

You can get better interest 1.5% on current accounts these days or if you have serious money say a few thousand you don't need to access quickly 4-6% from bonds.
The EU will only be better off if we give them at least more than £10 Bn a year though!

[sinkov]

I can remember getting 7% from one of those Icelandic banks about ten years ago, Kaupthing Edge or something like that I think it was, great, the interest rolled in for couple of years, then came the crash and the bank went tits up. I got my money back eventually, but not before a few sleepless nights and I learned the wisdom of that old saying "If something looks too good to be true, that's because it probably is".

[oldcolner]

I can remember getting 7% from one of those Icelandic banks about ten years ago, Kaupthing Edge or something like that I think it was, great, the interest rolled in for couple of years, then came the crash and the bank went tits up. I got my money back eventually, but not before a few sleepless nights and I learned the wisdom of that old saying "If something looks too good to be true, that's because it probably is".

You need a good FA to advise
Guess it depends whether you trust Tesco to pay 5% till 2020
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/retail-bonds/company-summary/XS0780063235ZZGBPUKCP.html

HSBC and Prudential are others paying slightly more. From memory around 6.5 and 5.3. However as these rates are high the bonds have risen in value so you may pay say £110 for £100 invested.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Of course everything you say is correct OC, but I fear you're wasting your time with BT. I've tried, but his hatred for Tories so dominates his thinking that any attempt to have a political discussion, argument with him if you like, is doomed to failure, a rational exchange of views replaced by a series of childish photos. It's a shame, I don't know BT but I get the impression of a very intelligent, decent, likeable person until the red political mist descends, but c'est la vie, we're all different.

Another silly, childish photo message of which the sentiments are now being shared by millions of voters...

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[Supersub6]

Another silly, childish photo message of which the sentiments are now being shared by millions of voters...

5153

Note the last statement on this photo -- I don't seem to remember any MPs refusing this rise --or did I miss something

[Supersub6]

You need a good FA to advise
Guess it depends whether you trust Tesco to pay 5% till 2020
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/retail-bonds/company-summary/XS0780063235ZZGBPUKCP.html

HSBC and Prudential are others paying slightly more. From memory around 6.5 and 5.3. However as these rates are high the bonds have risen in value so you may pay say £110 for £100 invested.

My statement about interest was hypothetical because when you have nowt you don't get interest anyway.

[oldcolner]

Sorry to hear that. Have been there myself in younger days.

[oldcolner]

Voters in Germany, France and Spain are among those calling for their own referendum on staying part of the European Union.

Michael Dimock, president of American think tank Pew Research Center, said voters in seven out of nine key member nations wanted an EU referendum.

Other countries include Italy, Sweden, the Netherlands, Hungary, Poland and Greece.

Well well!

[oldcolner]

Vote against Brexit not carried with only 101 voting for it and Jeremy sacks 5 shadow ministers who voted against Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-sacks-fires-labour-ministers-brexit-rebels-single-market-vote-chukka-umunna-a7815496.html

[sinkov]

Another silly, childish photo message of which the sentiments are now being shared by millions of voters...

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I risked my life as a firefighter for 28 years BT, and had to endure 7 weeks on strike with no money under a Labour government, so as far as I'm concerned you, your lefty chums and your infantile photos, trying to make out you're on the side of firefighters, can feck right off. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been on strike for 7 weeks with a mortgage to pay and a young family to feed ? No, thought not.

[Supersub6]

I risked my life as a firefighter for 28 years BT, and had to endure 7 weeks on strike with no money under a Labour government, so as far as I'm concerned you, your lefty chums and your infantile photos, trying to make out you're on the side of firefighters, can feck right off. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been on strike for 7 weeks with a mortgage to pay and a young family to feed ? No, thought not.

Meanwhile those bringing you out on strike continue to live in the lap of luxury with no changes to their lives. Even after they retire as Union leaders they continue to try to milk the system -----just like a certain NUM leader who did it for years after he had finished.

[footy_le_bordel]

I risked my life as a firefighter for 28 years BT, and had to endure 7 weeks on strike with no money under a Labour government, so as far as I'm concerned you, your lefty chums and your infantile photos, trying to make out you're on the side of firefighters, can feck right off. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been on strike for 7 weeks with a mortgage to pay and a young family to feed ? No, thought not.

Seven weeks?

The public sector hasn't had a decent pay rise in seven years.

must say, your solidarity with fellow fire fighters is touching.

[alfinyalcabo]

Seven weeks?

The public sector hasn't had a decent pay rise in seven years.

must say, your solidarity with fellow fire fighters is touching.

I did ten weeks on strike at rolls in the seventies with two young kids and to bring up and a large Mortgage as well. . I knew just how hard it was,but you have to fight for your rights..

[sinkov]

Seven weeks?

The public sector hasn't had a decent pay rise in seven years.

must say, your solidarity with fellow fire fighters is touching.

Footy, my favourite lefty troll, how you doing mate ? :heart:

[footy_le_bordel]

Footy, my favourite lefty troll, how you doing mate ? :heart:

I might have guessed Sinkov was BC.

More than a whiff of working class Tory and i'm-all-right-jackery about your posts.

[footy_le_bordel]

I did ten weeks on strike at rolls in the seventies with two young kids and to bring up and a large Mortgage as well. . I knew just how hard it was,but you have to fight for your rights..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[oldcolner]

EU's Juncker calls empty European Parliament 'ridiculous'
An unusual swipe from one bit of the EU to another.
I agree it is ridiculous

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40492396

[oldcolner]

EU don't like our offer for EU nationals

The leaders of the four political groups who have signed the joint letter account for two-thirds of the votes in the European Parliament.
Their letter points out that that they have the power to reject any Brexit deal before it can go ahead because the parliament must approve the withdrawal agreement.

They said the UK proposal "falls short" because it would take away rights citizens currently have, and create new red tape and uncertainty for millions of people.
The letter said this contradicted promises made by the Leave campaign that EU citizens would be treated no less favourably after Brexit.
By contrast, the letter said the EU's offer - already on the table - was simple, clear and fair because it promised that all citizens, including UK nationals living in Europe, would be treated equally and lose no current rights.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Verhofstadt said EU citizens in the UK - and Britons living on the continent - should keep their current rights, rather than the government "inventing a new status".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40552318

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Crikey, Cameron and Osborne both sodded off and left us with a right old...

5310

[Altobelli]

Cameron is trying to ease his big mistake of the EU Ref by getting the stay Members who stood with him at the time to vote for something similar to how Norway operate, something at the time Cameron said that was a big NO NO, funny how now he sees it as a good idea, Politicians ? I've Shat em.

[outwoodclaret]

Brexit! Absolutely necessary that Tony Blair does not happen. What a disaster this man has been to our country.

[Supersub6]

Brexit! Absolutely necessary that Tony Blair does not happen. What a disaster this man has been to our country.

He hasn't been as good as that!

[sinkov]

Brexit! Absolutely necessary that Tony Blair does not happen. What a disaster this man has been to our country.

What I don't understand is why he's not in prison, along with his warmongering mate Alastair Campbell.

[oldcolner]

Is he hoping to be our next President!

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Is he hoping to be our next President!

The super long distance SAS sniper team should use this dude for target practice...

5456

[oldcolner]

My favourite hate couple

5457

Though they live separate lives it seems now they both have money!

When he stopped being Prime Minister, they appear to have lost that instinctive feel for each other that had made them such a formidable and mutually supporting couple. These days, their business empires are entirely separate. They do not work together and are seldom seen together.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985566/Will-Tony-Cherie-divorced-lead-separate-lives-amid-claims-resents-treatment-No10-closeness-Murdoch-s-ex-wife-friends-asking-explosive-question.html#ixzz4myg8Gm9E

[oldcolner]

More seriously on topic the Mail has this story of France planning to wreck our economy even if they don't benefit themselves.

The clear messages emanating from Paris are not just the musings of a rogue senior official in the French government or central bank. France could not be clearer about their intentions. They see Britain and the City of London as adversaries, not partners.’ The memo suggests that other EU nations who wanted good relations with the UK over Brexit were alarmed by France’s hostile conduct but were powerless – or unwilling – to stop them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4700008/City-London-accuses-France-plot-wreck-Britain.html

[sinkov]

You have to worry if the Frogs intend to wreck our economy, they know what they're doing, they've made a pretty good job of wrecking their own.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Barclays reported to be relocating to Dublin, Easyjet off to Austria, the City of London banking institution under siege. Don't you just love the Tories?

[sinkov]

Barclays reported to be relocating to Dublin, Easyjet off to Austria, the City of London banking institution under siege. Don't you just love the Tories?

Assuming these stories are true, and 99% of Project Fear has turned out to be utter drivel so far, why are you blaming the Tories BT,
I must have pointed this out a dozen times on this board already, the Tories campaigned to Remain in the EU. To remain in the EU was official Tory policy, Cameron and Osborne were for Remain, they lied through their teeth about the consequences of a Leave vote throughout the campaign, May was for Remain, so was Hammond, so were the majority of the Cabinet, so were and still are, the vast majority of Tory MPs. Just like the vast majority of the Labour Party they don't like Brexit and didn't want it.

Unlike JC, a man who detests the EU, but had to keep his head down and mouth shut for the duration in the interests of party unity. Sound on the EU is Jeremy, as all decent, sensible lefties should be. Benn, Scargill, Bob Crow, Corbyn, people who cared for the working class of this country could see the EU scam for what it truly is. It's a pity you can't BT, but just go along with the herd.

Ask yourself this BT, why did the Tories want us to remain in the EU ? And I've a question for you, why are you on their side on this ?

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Assuming these stories are true, and 99% of Project Fear has turned out to be utter drivel so far, why are you blaming the Tories BT,
I must have pointed this out a dozen times on this board already, the Tories campaigned to Remain in the EU. To remain in the EU was official Tory policy, Cameron and Osborne were for Remain, they lied through their teeth about the consequences of a Leave vote throughout the campaign, May was for Remain, so was Hammond, so were the majority of the Cabinet, so were and still are, the vast majority of Tory MPs. Just like the vast majority of the Labour Party they don't like Brexit and didn't want it.

Unlike JC, a man who detests the EU, but had to keep his head down and mouth shut for the duration in the interests of party unity. Sound on the EU is Jeremy, as all decent, sensible lefties should be. Benn, Scargill, Bob Crow, Corbyn, people who cared for the working class of this country could see the EU scam for what it truly is. It's a pity you can't BT, but just go along with the herd.

Ask yourself this BT, why did the Tories want us to remain in the EU ? And I've a question for you, why are you on their side on this ?

I'm trying to avoid politics on here now sinkov and "do a Primitive" and concentrate on footy instead!

I blame the Tories for their half arsed posturing and prevarication on Brexit. 12 months in and we are still no nearer to a definable exit strategy.

Corbyn is just circling around like a hungry vulture just waiting for the life to expire and then he will be in to clean up the carnage.

My only problem with that scenario is the remaining Blairites in the upper echelon of the PLP will not support Corbyn and we will be back to square one.

Whichever political persuasion you have it is pretty clear to everyone by now the elite political class in this country have put us all in one hell of a sinkhole!

...and for the ump****th time I voted to LEAVE, Theresa May wanted to REMAIN and I wonder whether the prevarication is just some sort of manoeuvring tactic to delay or even entirely kill off a democratic vote to LEAVE?

I would not put that past her! :?

[oldcolner]

BT
Nothing wrong with British companies setting up overseas HQ, in fact it's good practice, so long as the profits come back here.
Will easyJet be allowed to fly to Britain though?

Sinkov
But the French planned to have Strong economy so maybe their cunning plan might rebound. Just now Macron is basking in his role and not doing much but talking - let's see how he gets on in six months time. Of course one way to improve your rating score is to pick an enemy and evoke the National spirit - right now we are it.

[Supersub6]

I suggest we all just chill. Whatever happens eventually will happen and they certainly won't be asking us our opinion because we have already had our say and voted accordingly.
They were never prepared for a 'leave' vote, therefore, nothing had been thought through and it has taken until now just to start any sort of negotiation. This is the political way these days as was proved with the illegal invasion of Iraq followed by the lack of thought on what would be happening afterwards. It used to be called 'crisis management' but I don't think that it can be labelled that any more because, no matter what political persuasion you are, there is simply no management, therefore, we can be certain that it definitely is 'crisis' -- and will remain so.

[sinkov]

I'm trying to avoid politics on here now sinkov and "do a Primitive" and concentrate on footy instead!

I blame the Tories for their half arsed posturing and prevarication on Brexit. 12 months in and we are still no nearer to a definable exit strategy.

Corbyn is just circling around like a hungry vulture just waiting for the life to expire and then he will be in to clean up the carnage.

My only problem with that scenario is the remaining Blairites in the upper echelon of the PLP will not support Corbyn and we will be back to square one.

Whichever political persuasion you have it is pretty clear to everyone by now the elite political class in this country have put us all in one hell of a sinkhole!

...and for the ump****th time I voted to LEAVE, Theresa May wanted to REMAIN and I wonder whether the prevarication is just some sort of manoeuvring tactic to delay or even entirely kill off a democratic vote to LEAVE?

I would not put that past her! :?

If you think there is some sort of plan by May to thwart Brexit, then I think you credit her with a degree of cunning/intelligence she simply doesn't possess. There is no prevarication on our part, the timetable has been set by the EU, and we don't have a choice but to proceed in the order and the pace they dictate. Our exit strategy was set out clearly months ago, you may not agree with the aims, and it depends on a vindictive EU just how close we get to achieving those aims, but how many times do May have to say, out of the Single Market, out of the Customs Union and a tariff free trade deal, before people like your good self accept that we know, and have stated clearly, what our aims are ?

[The Bedlington Terrier]

No more from me on this subject sinkov, the new campaign that really matters is now less than one month away.

I will just have to take a step back and watch the unholy alliance of idiots that are ruining this country do their worse. :s

Only footy matters for me now. :D

[sinkov]

Then we can finish discussing politics in agreement BT, our country IS being ruined by the set of clowns running it. But worryingly for all our futures it looks like the next government will be an even bigger set of clowns, well intentioned Jeremy may be, but I don't see him, Long-Bailey, Thornberry et al being our salvation.

[Altobelli]

Clowns being the perfect word Sinkov, and we are the idiots laughing at them but suffering, and we'll keep on suffering until our system is changed which will never happen.

[sinkov]

Then we can finish discussing politics in agreement BT, our country IS being ruined by the set of clowns running it. But worryingly for all our futures it looks like the next government will be an even bigger set of clowns, well intentioned Jeremy may be, but I don't see him, Long-Bailey, Thornberry et al being our salvation.

Sorry, I forgot add the glorious Diane Abbott to the list of our country's saviours. God help us all.

[Balanbam00]

....... until our system is changed which will never happen.

A change has to come from us , the people ,if we do not want the change it will never happen. The clowns picked by us the people are holding on to what they have each in his own interest. Not only these 'clever sods' yes, they are in power ,we their servants, we support a system that keeps them in power!! Namely 'Capitalism'. Yes, it provides jobs ,money is flowing somehow.But at the end of the tunnel it gets ploughed back into the 'political system',by these multi national companies,and keeps those company's economic interests under a safe governments wing! "" You scratch my back I'll scratch yours !''seems to come to mind ! The government then moves that money to better something, infrastructure ,education ,hospitals etc ....and then a new day starts all over again! But that system still remains !!Take a hint from a book 2000 yrs ago ! " Seek and ye shall find ,knock and it shall be open unto you!''

[oldcolner]

Good to see David Davis and his team having no files for their latest meeting and him leaving his minions in charge after 15 minutes.
The independent says the EU is threatening to postpone talks.
What are the Foreign Office doing and what have they done in the last 12 months. Not a lot!!

[sinkov]

Good to see David Davis and his team having no files for their latest meeting and him leaving his minions in charge after 15 minutes.
The independent says the EU is threatening to postpone talks.
What are the Foreign Office doing and what have they done in the last 12 months. Not a lot!!

Just more scare-mongering drivel from an ante-Brexit lefty rag OC. The meeting was simply for the EU to set out in detail their demands in the divorce settlement. Our side was not going to respond at this meeting, so had no need of notes or files. On Davis leaving the EU said there was no need for the Chief Negotiator to be in constant attendance, and had no problem with his departure, yet some British newspapers had to make an issue of this non-story.

More interesting and relevant is what German MEP Hans-Olaf Henkel said in the Times this morning. He says Guy Verhofstadt, EU Brexit co-ordinator "now wants to punish the British, full stop. He says he doesn't, but I'm afraid he does. My impression is that Mr Barnier (EU Chief Negotiator) wants to do the same. The reason is simple. They would seek to make sure that Brexit is such a catastrophe that no country dares to take the step of leaving the EU again".

This is what we're up against in these talks, a concerted attempt by a vindictive EU to wreck our economy and our country, so blatant even their own MEPs are pointing it out. Yet lefty rags in this country are shamefully going along with it, helping the EU propaganda machine at every opportunity.

I don't think the Foreign Office has much to do with any of this, Brexit has it's own department and officials.

[oldcolner]

If things get tough, they can deal with their own nuclear waste we threaten. That should make the negotiations come to life .. or get red hot!

[oldcolner]

I don't think the Foreign Office has much to do with any of this, Brexit has it's own department and officials.

Probably now but at the time of Brexit it was the FO and they had done sweet FA to plan for all options. The vote threw them into chaos and our key European staff departed leaving a void that we don't seem to have filled.

[sinkov]

I don't think the Foreign Office has much to do with any of this, Brexit has it's own department and officials.

Probably now but at the time of Brexit it was the FO and they had done sweet FA to plan for all options. The vote threw them into chaos and our key European staff departed leaving a void that we don't seem to have filled.

I'd blame Cameron and Osborne for that, the halfwits never for one second thought we might vote to leave. Not sure where the void is, except in the fevered imagination of lefty and BBC journalists. They claim we don't have a plan, we do, they say we're using EU citizens as bargaining chips, we said we'd guarantee their rights even before negotiations began, the EU wouldn't even discuss it, they say we are causing tension in the EU because we won't pay a divorce bill, we have said all along we'll meet our financial commitments, the only thing to be negotiated is how much. And so it goes on, it's to be expected that the EU will spew forth lies in a propaganda war, it's despicable that so much of our media and establishment is complicit in this attempt to wreck the economy of their own country.

[1959_60]

I'm still amazed that people thought we would have a better deal with the EU after leaving it. Deluded springs to mind.

This was never going to end well...but we have made our beds.

[sinkov]

I'm still amazed that people thought we would have a better deal with the EU after leaving it. Deluded springs to mind.

More fake news, it was pointed out on numerous occasions that we couldn't have the same deal after we had left, I've yet to hear anyone, Leavers or Remainers, claiming that we could. We will attempt to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU, while negotiating trade deals with every other country we seek to trade with. We will be in the same position as every other country in the world outside of the EU, most of whom manage their own affairs perfectly well. I'm still amazed that some people think that the UK, the 5th largest economy in the world is incapable of doing the same.

Times must have changed for sure, if this pathetic, defeatist mentality had been prevalent 70 years ago we'd never have survived WW2, in fact we'd never have fought it, we'd have capitulated and let Germany walk all over us, a sitution not unlike the one we face today.

[Balanbam00]

I do not know why you are all surprised ,its the economic system we have , and thats how the clock tics, come up with a better system!!!

[oldcolner]

So no agreement yet on anything, but Vince rides in on his Liberal charger looking for his exit from Brexit.

[sinkov]

So no agreement yet on anything, but Vince rides in on his Liberal charger looking for his exit from Brexit.

I don't know if the penny has dropped yet with Remoanians, probably not, but the EU commision stated last week that there can be no going back for the UK. Article 50 is irreversible, there is no mechanism by which the process can be halted or reversed. Yet one political party actually fought the General Election on this fantasy, and the Remoanian media and establishment still act as though they think they can stop this happening. They need to go and have a word with their EU chums in Brussels, they'll put them right.

[oldcolner]

Here's an interesting take on the current position from a European publication

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-view-from-brussels-how-negotiations-between-the-uk-and-the-eu-on-brexit-financial-settlement-are-slowly-making-progress/

[oldcolner]

I don't know if the penny has dropped yet with Remoanians, probably not, but the EU commision stated last week that there can be no going back for the UK. Article 50 is irreversible, there is no mechanism by which the process can be halted or reversed. Yet one political party actually fought the General Election on this fantasy, and the Remoanian media and establishment still act as though they think they can stop this happening. They need to go and have a word with their EU chums in Brussels, they'll put them right.

Until European Courts have determined the position I'm not sure it's as black and white as that. Both sides can find someone saying what they want to hear. The guy who wrote the clause says it is possible to pull out, but it doesn't say that does it. I presum eif all 27 states agreed to reversal it would be possible, but would they all agree. I suspect given the impending cuts in the EU budget after Brexit they just might, but possibly only if we lost our rebate and paid more.
Vince is going against the referendum so will be swimming upstream, his deputy leader only got in because people voted to get rid of the SNP. He doesn't have the numbers to do anything other than irritate in his Westminster slots.

[sinkov]

Until European Courts have determined the position I'm not sure it's as black and white as that. Both sides can find someone saying what they want to hear. The guy who wrote the clause says it is possible to pull out, but it doesn't say that does it. I presum eif all 27 states agreed to reversal it would be possible, but would they all agree. I suspect given the impending cuts in the EU budget after Brexit they just might, but possibly only if we lost our rebate and paid more.
Vince is going against the referendum so will be swimming upstream, his deputy leader only got in because people voted to get rid of the SNP. He doesn't have the numbers to do anything other than irritate in his Westminster slots.

OC, I'm just pointing out what the EU Commission have said, it probably wasn't widely reported in the UK because it destroys any dwindling hope the Remoanian establishment and media have of halting or reversing the process, they prefer to bury their heads in the sand and deny reality.

The EU Commission is the Executive arm of the EU, all EU law emanates from them, they run the EU. One of their responsibilities is to ensure adherence to the EU Treaties, Article 50 is an Article of the Lisbon Treaty, if the EU Commission says it's irreversible then it doesn't matter what ANYONE else says, it's irreversible, there's no gainsaying the Commission, in effect they are the EU.

[footy_le_bordel]

OC, I'm just pointing out what the EU Commission have said, it probably wasn't widely reported in the UK because it destroys any dwindling hope the Remoanian establishment and media have of halting or reversing the process, they prefer to bury their heads in the sand and deny reality.

The EU Commission is the Executive arm of the EU, all EU law emanates from them, they run the EU. One of their responsibilities is to ensure adherence to the EU Treaties, Article 50 is an Article of the Lisbon Treaty, if the EU Commission says it's irreversible then it doesn't matter what ANYONE else says, it's irreversible, there's no gainsaying the Commission, in effect they are the EU.

Think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on here.

What the Commission actually said:

Once triggered, can Article 50 be revoked?

It was the decision of the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed. Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of the notification.


http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-2001_en.htm

They can't unilaterally revoke the article, but might with the say-so of the other side.

BTW, the other side- namely, Tusk and the head of the EU parliament - have suggested the process is reversible.

fingers crossed, eh?

[footy_le_bordel]

A Tory taking a reasonable approach to Brexit @ link.

I guess Hammond hasn't receieved the memo that a sociopathic Brexit is the order of the day.

https://www.ft.com/content/88bd9268-55ad-11e7-80b6-9bfa4c1f83d2?mhq5j=e2

[sinkov]

Think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on here.

What the Commission actually said:

Once triggered, can Article 50 be revoked?

It was the decision of the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed. Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of the notification.


http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-2001_en.htm

They can't unilaterally revoke the article, but might with the say-so of the other side.

BTW, the other side- namely, Tusk and the head of the EU parliament - have suggested the process is reversible.

fingers crossed, eh?

There's just the small difficulty of both Labour and the Tories accepting the result of the referendum, and the inevitability of us leaving the EU, in their election manifestos. I know these politicians are congenital liars and their election promises often worthless, but if both reneged on their commitment to leaving the EU, as they would both have to for us to attempt to withdraw our application, constitutional crisis would hardly describe what would follow.

It's my understanding that the EU commission re-iterated the impossibily of revoking Article 50 as much to their own negotiating team as to anyone else, in an attempt to keep them moving forward with the process, and not prevaricating hoping for a change of heart by Perfidious Albion.

[1959_60]

Blinking heck Sinkov, you said that you were dropping this because it is boring everyone.

I have heard the following politicians (along with many others) saying that until the article 50 negotiations are completed then Britain can change it's mind and stay,

Angela Merkel
Emanuel Macron
Donald Tusk (President of the European Council)
Lord Kerr, the author of the actual Article 50 bill
Guy Verhofstadt (chief EU Brexit negotiator)
Vince Cable

In fact, I haven't heard anyone suggesting that we cannot change our mind - apart from you.

Right! No more from me on this issue - promise :-)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-remain-eu-worse-terms-guy-verhofstadt-european-parliament-negotiator-a7790886.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/816808/Article-50-Britain-remain-EU-Brexit-debate-Institute-for-Government

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/06/its-not-unthinkable-uk-could-remain-eu

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/06/its-not-unthinkable-uk-could-remain-eu

[Supersub6]

Come on guys, I 've told you before, just chill --there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about any of this rubbish except to await the eventual outcome and hope that life will go on without too much hassle. I doubt it though! Meanwhile, we have a football team to support!

[sinkov]

I hadn't mentioned it again 59/60, until OC mentioned Vince, and his apparent desire to fight the referendum again, so you'll have to blame him.;D

All those good people you mention above, you'll have to refer them to what the EU Commission says , they run the EU, and they say it can't be done, Article 50 is irreversible. Which is just what I've been saying all along.

[1959_60]

Only one way to settle this Sinkov - I challenge you to a game of FootGolf at Towneley.

The loser has to publicly admit that they were wrong on here.

And we can have a two hour argument on the way round.

I am a 64 year old dodderer but still have a right foot like a combined harvester.

This could prove to be the ideal way that politicians bury their hatchets in future.

:-)

[sinkov]

Only one way to settle this Sinkov - I challenge you to a game of FootGolf at Towneley.

The loser has to publicly admit that they were wrong on here.

And we can have a two hour argument on the way round.

I am a 64 year old dodderer but still have a right foot like a combined harvester.

This could prove to be the ideal way that politicians bury their hatchets in future.

:-)

Well you've got seven years on me 59-60, and I have to wear glasses due to my poor eyesight. Do I get a start ? As for the two hour argument, I expect we'd find far more that we agreed on than either of us might have imagined.

Sounds like a game that's likely to catch on to me, I'm surprised no one's thought of it before.

[1959_60]

71 years old is nowt Sinkov.

A friend of mine and his wife regularly go for organised walks of 100 miles - and they are older than us. In fact they are organisers of events.
https://www.ldwa.org.uk/

Tell you what I will do, I will only kick the ball with my right foot. You can use either.

I can't be fairer than that.