O/T, Italy's Nuclear option

[Drowse]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/italy-plots-nuclear-option-to-send-migrants-north-tdt0d5bzf

Cant say I blame them if they enact this method.

Once again thanks to Merkel et al for flooding Europe with these owt for nowt chancers, glad that we will be seeing the back of these so called great Euro statesmen, thats a loose term.

[queenslandpie]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/italy-plots-nuclear-option-to-send-migrants-north-tdt0d5bzf

Cant say I blame them if they enact this method.

Once again thanks to Merkel et al for flooding Europe with these owt for nowt chancers, glad that we will be seeing the back of these so called great Euro statesmen, thats a loose term.

People who are simply after a better life. If you don't like it leave. They are. I did. Never looked back.

[Trickytreesreds]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/italy-plots-nuclear-option-to-send-migrants-north-tdt0d5bzf

Cant say I blame them if they enact this method.

Once again thanks to Merkel et al for flooding Europe with these owt for nowt chancers, glad that we will be seeing the back of these so called great Euro statesmen, thats a loose term.

careful, you'll have Andy labeling you inhuman and Sid calling you a right wing bigot.

All they have to do is ferry them back and it will stop.
Picking them up, one mile off the Libyan coast is crazy.

[Trickytreesreds]

People who are simply after a better life. If you don't like it leave. They are. I did. Never looked back.

Arrrrrrrrr, but Queeny.

The Aussies have one of the most intense immigration policies on earth.
This lot just paddle.
Hardly a fair comment

[Drowse]

People who are simply after a better life. If you don't like it leave. They are. I did. Never looked back.

So you were an economic migrant that just flew into Perth, Sidney or wherever in OZ, with no belongings,documentation, just a mobile phone & Australia said welcome.

Don't believe you if you say you did.

[Bohinen]

So you were an economic migrant that just flew into Perth, Sidney or wherever in OZ, with no belongings,documentation, just a mobile phone & Australia said welcome.

Don't believe you if you say you did.

I'm guessing Brisbane

[Vladpie]

One of my mates who is a highly skilled mechanic and was working for the Met Police, married an Aussie bird. He lives there now but even as a skilled tradesman, he had to jump through so may hoops before he was allowed to live there.

[TheBlackHorse]

... all the European armed forces need do is put holes in the boats whilst they are on shore or in shallow water. Libya may have a few armed bullies ripping off the would be immigrants but not enough to cause a serious problem. There are 27 European countries, enough to share out the monitoring of the Libyan coastline of 1099 miles. So the yoghurt knitters would call this an invasion; I call it saving the lives of hundreds/thousands of the deluded and deceived.

[Vladpie]

A total joke

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-40616138/migrant-crisis-smugglers-in-the-mediterranean

[TheBlackHorse]

... yes, a joke destroying the boats mid-way to Italy. Should be done on the Libyan shore before migrants get in.

[Vladpie]

... yes, a joke destroying the boats mid-way to Italy. Should be done on the Libyan shore before migrants get in.

I meant that the smugglers were blatantly being allowed to recover motors and even boats to be re-used.

I still think also that having these welcoming parties on the beaches, ready with blankets and so forth, does nothing to create an image that puts anyone off risking the journey.

[navypie]

I normally stay away from posts like this but I will have my say . We all know the European Navies are running a ferry service for the people smugglers who are getting richer and richer . It wont change and they will keep on coming until the indigenous people are driven out and then will we go ? Their **** ideas on how to run a country or in fact a continent will mean Europe will eventually be f****D and then they will have nowhere to go . So is there a solution ? yes stop them coming , will we , no . Just a point on Tony Blair suggesting we could stay in the EU because they might be willing to move on the freedom of movement , well for the bloke who did so much for making sure it happened , how rich !! Politics I like to stay away from because I aint great but neither is Diane Abbott !

[AltyPie]

In April 2016, the BBC carried a story on how one Italian party was complaining it was “full”, that it wanted the EU to push for bilateral deals with African countries to make it easier to send economic migrants and failed asylum seekers back home. Today, countries north of Italy are less accepting than they were but the migrant flow continues. In Jan 2010, Pew Research published results of a poll in which 94% of Italians said immigration was a “big problem” and 64% said it was a “very big problem” (the highest of the 47 countries polled). Given the details in Douglas Murray’s new book and the terror that’s occurred since that 2010 Pew poll, it would be hard to believe Italian attitudes to immigration had softened.

The next Italian election has to take place before May 2018. My understanding is that the “5 Star Movement” is the Italian Euro-sceptic party. The proof in the pudding of just how strongly Italians feel about the migration issue will presumably be the success of this party.

[drillerpie]

In April 2016, the BBC carried a story on how one Italian party was complaining it was “full”, that it wanted the EU to push for bilateral deals with African countries to make it easier to send economic migrants and failed asylum seekers back home. Today, countries north of Italy are less accepting than they were but the migrant flow continues. In Jan 2010, Pew Research published results of a poll in which 94% of Italians said immigration was a “big problem” and 64% said it was a “very big problem” (the highest of the 47 countries polled). Given the details in Douglas Murray’s new book and the terror that’s occurred since that 2010 Pew poll, it would be hard to believe Italian attitudes to immigration had softened.

The next Italian election has to take place before May 2018. My understanding is that the “5 Star Movement” is the Italian Euro-sceptic party. The proof in the pudding of just how strongly Italians feel about the migration issue will presumably be the success of this party.

The 5 star movement (m5s) is a strange party, founded by a comedian and a (now deceased) computer expert a few years ago and has made great strides in a short time, mostly on an anti corruption platform. Its representatives and policies are decided by members-only online votes, although they tend to vote for whatever Beppe Grillo (the now undisputed spiritual leader) tells them to. I think their current position is stay inside the EU but have a referendum on the euro.

The proper eurosceptic party would be Lega Nord. They were founded by a mentalist who said that northern Italians were ethnically celtic and different from swarthy untrustworthy southern Italians, so they wanted independence for the new northern italian state of padania. After they realised that open racism to their own countrymen was not really a vote winner they focussed on eastern Europeans and now Muslims and Africans arriving via boat. The leader, Matteo Salvini, is absolutely hilarious by the way. He has a massive hard on for Putin and gets a selfie with a a bemused looking Vladimir now and again. He once went to red square to unfurl a banner supporting his hero and got nicked for making a political protest without permission.

After that you have what is left of the fascist parties, Casa Pound, Fratelli d'Italia, Forza Nuova etc. Mussolini's granddaughter is in one of them but can't remember which one.

[AltyPie]

The 5 star movement (m5s) is a strange party, founded by a comedian and a (now deceased) computer expert a few years ago and has made great strides in a short time, mostly on an anti corruption platform. Its representatives and policies are decided by members-only online votes, although they tend to vote for whatever Beppe Grillo (the now undisputed spiritual leader) tells them to. I think their current position is stay inside the EU but have a referendum on the euro.

The proper eurosceptic party would be Lega Nord. They were founded by a mentalist who said that northern Italians were ethnically celtic and different from swarthy untrustworthy southern Italians, so they wanted independence for the new northern italian state of padania. After they realised that open racism to their own countrymen was not really a vote winner they focussed on eastern Europeans and now Muslims and Africans arriving via boat. The leader, Matteo Salvini, is absolutely hilarious by the way. He has a massive hard on for Putin and gets a selfie with a a bemused looking Vladimir now and again. He once went to red square to unfurl a banner supporting his hero and got nicked for making a political protest without permission.

After that you have what is left of the fascist parties, Casa Pound, Fratelli d'Italia, Forza Nuova etc. Mussolini's granddaughter is in one of them but can't remember which one.

I had a go once at trying to understand Italian politics and their political system. It seems to be based on some sort of PR but I gave up as it just came across as a right dogs breakfast of a system. I suppose if you were the EU the last thing you'd want is one single strong party getting in that might push for a referendum exit vote. The EU presumably would prefer a mess of a PR type system where the largest vote could go to a single Eurosceptic party but they can't form a Govt and a Govt is then formed via coalition of two smaller Pro-EU parties.

That Salvini guy sounds like he might be a bit Corbyn-like then? A lefty leader and the butt of a few jokes that no-one takes seriously now, but might become someone significant as the election draws closer especially if he makes the right Eurosceptic noises? His limited provincialist position (that you describe) would presumably go against him though?

This graph is interesting : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Italian_general_election
It seems to show the 5 Star party climbing significantly in the polls. This must be a bit worrying for the EU as another country voting Brexit would surely end the EU. Being someone who’s not exactly in love with the EU, I’ll watch this with interest.
Have you studied a bit about Italian politics? Seems you have a bit of background. If so, what do you think are the chances of an Italexit or whatever name they’d give it?

Late Edit : Just had a quick read about that Salvini guy - says he likes right wing populist parties like France's FN - but he also has Putin as a hero - bit confusing...

[BigFatPie]

I had a go once at trying to understand Italian politics and their political system.

This graph is interesting : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Italian_general_election
It seems to show the 5 Star party climbing significantly in the polls. This must be a bit worrying for the EU as another country voting Brexit would surely end the EU....

The ongoing shambles of Brexit means no other country will vote to exit for the next 20 years. The UK couldn't have done more to strengthen the EU if it tried.

[JoePass]

The ongoing shambles of Brexit means no other country will vote to exit for the next 20 years. The UK couldn't have done more to strengthen the EU if it tried.


Lol stop reading the Guardian. This country is about to be great again after ridding ourselves of unelected idiots who do not know the value of money or our sovereignty.

[BigFatPie]

"Lol". Whatever you say Joe.

[Elite_Pie]

Lol stop reading the Guardian. This country is about to be great again after ridding ourselves of unelected idiots who do not know the value of money or our sovereignty.

Head in the sand as usual. You haven't noticed that prices are rising faster than wages?

[JoePass]

Head in the sand as usual. You haven't noticed that prices are rising faster than wages?


Talking about sand, just got back off the beach, too hot. I knew I would get both you Guardianistas to bite.;D

[Vladpie]

Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Pie View Post
Head in the sand as usual. You haven't noticed that prices are rising faster than wages?


That was happening before the Brexit vote, why do you think the public sector workers are bleating.

[Elite_Pie]

Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Pie View Post
Head in the sand as usual. You haven't noticed that prices are rising faster than wages?


That was happening before the Brexit vote.

It wasn't. It's happened as a direct result of the Brexit vote and will only get worse. I just hope those who hold 'taking control of our own destiny' so dear are happy to pay the price.

[drillerpie]

I had a go once at trying to understand Italian politics and their political system. It seems to be based on some sort of PR but I gave up as it just came across as a right dogs breakfast of a system. I suppose if you were the EU the last thing you'd want is one single strong party getting in that might push for a referendum exit vote. The EU presumably would prefer a mess of a PR type system where the largest vote could go to a single Eurosceptic party but they can't form a Govt and a Govt is then formed via coalition of two smaller Pro-EU parties.

That Salvini guy sounds like he might be a bit Corbyn-like then? A lefty leader and the butt of a few jokes that no-one takes seriously now, but might become someone significant as the election draws closer especially if he makes the right Eurosceptic noises? His limited provincialist position (that you describe) would presumably go against him though?

This graph is interesting : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Italian_general_election
It seems to show the 5 Star party climbing significantly in the polls. This must be a bit worrying for the EU as another country voting Brexit would surely end the EU. Being someone who’s not exactly in love with the EU, I’ll watch this with interest.
Have you studied a bit about Italian politics? Seems you have a bit of background. If so, what do you think are the chances of an Italexit or whatever name they’d give it?

Late Edit : Just had a quick read about that Salvini guy - says he likes right wing populist parties like France's FN - but he also has Putin as a hero - bit confusing...

It's PR with a prize of X amount of extra seats for the winning party, to give them governability. They are currently trying to agree on a new electoral law as parts of the last one were declared unconstitutional.

There isn't a strong party that would push for an exit vote, only the Lega Nord want that and they're hovering at about 15%

Salvini is in the populist right wing mould like le pen and trump. In terms of character he's as far removed from Corbyn as can be, brash, rude, etc.

The m5s didn't do very well in the local elections in June, not sure if they've bounced back since then. The traditional centre right were the big winners in the local elections.

I'd say an Italexit is extremely unlikely. Most Italians like being in the EU and nobody is really talking about leaving it. It's just not a thing. But in these strange times you never know I suppose.

[TheBlackHorse]

... with over 25% of the 'working' population not paying income tax/thriving black economy, why would they want exit? They're too busy shafting the EU losers. Heaven forbid we remain part of that. They'll be there when the EU goes ti ts up and it'll be too late for them to change sides ...!

[drillerpie]

... with over 25% of the 'working' population not paying income tax/thriving black economy, why would they want exit? They're too busy shafting the EU losers. Heaven forbid we remain part of that. They'll be there when the EU goes ti ts up and it'll be too late for them to change sides ...!

Not sure I understand the connection between black economy and EU membership.

[TheBlackHorse]

... Italy is a poorly run country with high levels of corruption. Would you like to try starting a biz there? Some time ago the EU paid out €millions for a steel mill which didn't even exist. Can't decide which is worse, the dozey EU or the I ties!

[Trickytreesreds]

... Italy is a poorly run country with high levels of corruption. Would you like to try starting a biz there? Some time ago the EU paid out €millions for a steel mill which didn't even exist. Can't decide which is worse, the dozey EU or the I ties!

Yep, "corrupt" is the word I'd go for

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-boat-rescue-charities-medicins-sans-frontieres-save-the-children-mediterranean-sea-migrants-a7699571.html

[drillerpie]

... Italy is a poorly run country with high levels of corruption. Would you like to try starting a biz there? Some time ago the EU paid out €millions for a steel mill which didn't even exist. Can't decide which is worse, the dozey EU or the I ties!

Still don't get the connection between black economy and the EU.

[TheBlackHorse]

... driller ... thought you were bright enough to see a bigger picture. So, in football terms, the EU is the team but 7 countries are undermining the common ( at the risk of confusing you, for 'common' read the Germany) interest. Or, in Notts terms, 3 of the team have taken bribes from the opposition ... but that could be a whole new topic!

[Elite_Pie]

... driller ... thought you were bright enough to see a bigger picture. So, in football terms, the EU is the team but 7 countries are undermining the common ( at the risk of confusing you, for 'common' read the Germany) interest. Or, in Notts terms, 3 of the team have taken bribes from the opposition ... but that could be a whole new topic!

After extensive research, I think you seem to be hinting that some politicians are corrupt.

Who would have thought it?

[i961pie]

After extensive research, I think you seem to be hinting that some politicians are corrupt.

Who would have thought it?

Especially in Italy

[drillerpie]

... driller ... thought you were bright enough to see a bigger picture. So, in football terms, the EU is the team but 7 countries are undermining the common ( at the risk of confusing you, for 'common' read the Germany) interest. Or, in Notts terms, 3 of the team have taken bribes from the opposition ... but that could be a whole new topic!

Still don't get it. Try explaining it literally rather than via metaphor.

[TheBlackHorse]

... Oh dear ... just put 'black economy and Italy' into google and read around the topic ...

[drillerpie]

... Oh dear ... just put 'black economy and Italy' into google and read around the topic ...

Or just explain your rationale, seeing as it is a message board.

[TheBlackHorse]

... driller ... you may belong to the golden core of contributors to this message board, but the expression 'deaf or daft' springs to mind. Since you are probably not daft and I don't know if you're deaf you may be too lazy to bother with looking up some easily accessible information, ie, too much to waste space on this board. As you posted at 0356hrs , unless you work night shifts, your insomnia should provide you with ample time to read around the subject.
The shorter version of that is for you to 'go forth and multiply' which, for some posters, would be a more pertinent response to you ...

[drillerpie]

... driller ... you may belong to the golden core of contributors to this message board, but the expression 'deaf or daft' springs to mind. Since you are probably not daft and I don't know if you're deaf you may be too lazy to bother with looking up some easily accessible information, ie, too much to waste space on this board. As you posted at 0356hrs , unless you work night shifts, your insomnia should provide you with ample time to read around the subject.
The shorter version of that is for you to 'go forth and multiply' which, for some posters, would be a more pertinent response to you ...

That's a long winded way of saying you don't know.

It wasn't 4am in my time zone but never mind.

[TheBlackHorse]

... none so blind as those who don't want to see.

[drillerpie]

... none so blind as those who don't want to see.

Ahah. I do want to see, so explain it. Until then I'm calling BS on your over 25% of Italians working in the black economy (1 in 4 nationally, really?) and unless you can explain it to me I don't see what the hell that has to do with the EU.

[TheBlackHorse]

... see dp, it appears that you can't even read. I said c25% of working/those who should pay tax, NOT 25% of the population. Now go to google or better still go to Italy and talk to working Italians ...

[drillerpie]

... see dp, it appears that you can't even read. I said c25% of working/those who should pay tax, NOT 25% of the population. Now go to google or better still go to Italy and talk to working Italians ...

Jesus Christ almighty. 25% of the working Italian population do not work on the black economy. There might be pockets of the south (ie below Rome) where that is true but nationally no way. It is simply untrue. I don't know what else I can say.

I still don't understand what that has got to do with the EU but it looks like you're going for an NCM first of logging on to comment on a thread and then spending the next ten posts refusing to defend your point of view.

[Vladpie]

Ahah. I do want to see, so explain it. Until then I'm calling BS on your over 25% of Italians working in the black economy (1 in 4 nationally, really?) and unless you can explain it to me I don't see what the hell that has to do with the EU.

Personally I can believe it if it's anything like Greece.

My ex girlfriend was a Greek businesswoman and avoided all tax at all costs and many self employed Greeks do the same so no wonder the government went bankrupt.

[drillerpie]

Personally I can believe it if it's anything like Greece.

My ex girlfriend was a Greek businesswoman and avoided all tax at all costs and many self employed Greeks do the same so no wonder the government went bankrupt.

Do not fear, anecdotal evidence man has arrived.

[Vladpie]

Jesus Christ almighty. 25% of the working Italian population do not work on the black economy. There might be pockets of the south (ie below Rome) where that is true but nationally no way. It is simply untrue. I don't know what else I can say.

I still don't understand what that has got to do with the EU

I can see the connection clearly, if a large % are paying no tax, the Italian government cannot pay it's share of it's EU obligations and would not have need an EU loan to avoid bankruptcy if they did pay their taxes. I don't know about the 'black economy' but certainly tax evasion / avoidance is an issue in S Europe.

[Vladpie]

Do not fear, anecdotal evidence man has arrived.

How is this an anecdote, it's first hand knowledge?

Another who doesn't like his view challenged and resorts to derision

[drillerpie]

Anyway the figures for Italians working 'in nero' are 19.7% in the South, 10% in the centre/north.

Highest is Calabria with 27%, lowest is Lombardia with 7.9%.


http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2015/09/25/lavoro-nero-a-ogni-regione-il-suo/2060927/

[Vladpie]

Anyway the figures for Italians working 'in nero' are 19.7% in the South, 10% in the centre/north.

Highest is Calabria with 27%, lowest is Lombardia with 7.9%.


http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2015/09/25/lavoro-nero-a-ogni-regione-il-suo/2060927/


And of course by it's very nature, the black economy figures can be relied upon to be accurate

[drillerpie]

And of course by it's very nature, the black economy figures can be relied upon to be accurate

Fair point sorry for trying to get actual stats, let's just go with the ones BlackHorse pulled out his arse instead.

[Vladpie]

Fair point sorry for trying to get actual stats, let's just go with the ones BlackHorse pulled out his arse instead.

Even if only on a regional level, you have to concede that your figures support his statement to a degree?

[drillerpie]

Even if only on a regional level, you have to concede that your figures support his statement to a degree?

To what degree exactly Vlad?

[Vladpie]

Highest is Calabria with 27%



Exceeds his quoted 25% and to quote the North and Central as an amalgamation could be misleading?

I don't TBH either way, but those not paying tax must be part of the black economy of which we speak and in not paying said taxes, they will be impacting the EU?

[TheBlackHorse]

... hi Vlad ... dp clearly has too much time on his hands and I can understand his incredulity even if it's somewhat naive. It's a lot like Greece. 'Official' figures are usually understated; but who am I to pass comment on anything. No doubt the board pc brigade will be on shortly professing a thirst for more knowledge. UPies

[drillerpie]

Exceeds his quoted 25% and you only quote two regions

If memory serves there are twenty regions in Italy. The one with the highest number of black economy workers in the whole country is two percent above what he said is the national level. The one with the lowest number of black economy workers is 19% less than what he said is the national level.

The average for the centre and north which covers most of Italy's industrial output is 15% lower than what he said. The average for the agricultural south, where the problem of black economy is worse, is still 5% less than what he said.

If the highest is 27% but the average is 20%, we can infer that the others are not 25% or above.

If the stats from 1 region out of 20 back him up and stats from 19 regions out of 20 back me up, why should I concede anything to him? He should be conceding that he was wrong, surely?

[Vladpie]

I think that what you said and I haven't checked so apologies if I'm wrong, was along the lines of 'how doe s a black economy affect the Italians enjoyment of being in the EU' or similar?

[Vladpie]

Not sure I understand the connection between black economy and EU membership.

Here it is, they clearly derive benefit whilst 'probably' not paying what they should, who'd be unhappy with that?

The bottom line is that any government who wants to thrive economically, should pursue all tax due, Italians and Greeks, 'possibly' don't for reasons unknown, resources, corruption, both?

[drillerpie]

Here it is, they clearly derive benefit whilst 'probably' not paying what they should, who'd be unhappy with that?

The bottom line is that any government who wants to thrive economically, should pursue all tax due, Italians and Greeks, 'possibly' don't for reasons unknown, resources, corruption, both?

Italy is a net contributor to the EU. I still don't get it.

[Vladpie]

Italy is a net contributor to the EU. I still don't get it.

You're right but they have enjoyed a huge bail out, I wonder if they meet the min 2% of GDP for Nato?

Some surprisingly low contributors here, basically just 9 members are propping the whole lot up.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-eu-members-net-contributions-and-net-funding-2016-12

[drillerpie]

You're right but they have enjoyed a huge bail out, I wonder if they meet the min 2% of GDP for Nato?

Some surprisingly low contributors here, basically just 9 members are propping the whole lot up.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-eu-members-net-contributions-and-net-funding-2016-12

NATO is nothing to do with what we're talking about, please expand on the bail out.

[Vladpie]

NATO is nothing to do with what we're talking about, please expand on the bail out.

The bail out would not have happened if they were not EU members, it was done to stabilise the Euro and prevent the monetary union from collapsing. Until this loan is repaid, are they net contributors in the true sense?

The same with, Portugal, Greece and ROI

[BigFatPie]

How is this an anecdote, it's first hand knowledge?

Another who doesn't like his view challenged and resorts to derision

Best Post Ever.

As for The Black Horse, I think his posts are actually written by a horse. Not a very bright horse, but a horse nevertheless.

[Vladpie]

[QUOTE=BigFatPie;38590520]Best Post Ever.
/QUOTE]

'Anecdote'

'an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay'.

I had factual knowledge which I passed on, it wasn't second hand or unreliable, a typical, brainless one liner AGAIN, from the calorie addicted one, true to form.

Just get your nose bag back on lard arse and FCUK right off

Let's see how long it takes the little gang to turn up en masse now that one of them is here and yes I did read this message as a one off just for curiosity, won't bother again, you're the one who put the dic in predictable, that is of course when it's not up Pugwash''s arse.

[BigFatPie]

Another who doesn't like his view challenged and resorts to derision

You'll be telling us next about how much you dislike it when posters resort to abuse when they disagree with each other.

The key here Vlad is that Driller didn't call you "anecdote" man, he called you "anecdotal evidence man". So you may have 2000 Greek girlfriends, their stories about working there would still mean naff all in the context of the discussion you were having.

Oh I forgot, you don't read my posts, hehe.

[Elite_Pie]

Just get your nose bag back on lard arse and FCUK right off.

I'd ask for a refund from that anger management course if I were you Vlad.

[drillerpie]

Surprised that someone with a law degree doesn't know what anecdotal evidence is, but anyway I asked Google for a definition and it came up with this: Something*anecdotal*has to do with anecdotes*— little stories.*Anecdotal evidence*is based on hearsay rather than hard facts. People like to share stories about things that happened to them, or that they heard about, to make a point. That kind of talk is anecdotal: based on small, personal accounts.

I think it's an appropriate term for your story about the Greek ex girlfriend.

[drillerpie]

The bail out would not have happened if they were not EU members, it was done to stabilise the Euro and prevent the monetary union from collapsing. Until this loan is repaid, are they net contributors in the true sense?

The same with, Portugal, Greece and ROI

Are you sure you're not confusing Italy with Spain? When was Italy bailed out exactly?

[Trickytreesreds]

Are you sure you're not confusing Italy with Spain? When was Italy bailed out exactly?

Not recently driller, but it's coming

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9343049/Debt-crisis-Spain-and-Italy-to-be-bailed-out-in-600bn-deal.html

[drillerpie]

Not recently driller, but it's coming

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9343049/Debt-crisis-Spain-and-Italy-to-be-bailed-out-in-600bn-deal.html

Why have you linked to an article from 2012?

[Vladpie]

Surprised that someone with a law degree doesn't know what anecdotal evidence is, but anyway I asked Google for a definition and it came up with this: Something*anecdotal*has to do with anecdotes*— little stories.*Anecdotal evidence*is based on hearsay rather than hard facts. People like to share stories about things that happened to them, or that they heard about, to make a point. That kind of talk is anecdotal: based on small, personal accounts.

I think it's an appropriate term for your story about the Greek ex girlfriend.

What gives you the right to basically call me a liar?

This, as per you little play above, is a hard fact that I could attest to in court as knowing to be true, this is not an anecdote.

You're becoming a bit of a prick mate.

[Vladpie]

Are you sure you're not confusing Italy with Spain? When was Italy bailed out exactly?

Approved by the EU, amounts to pretty much the same thing.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/06/26/italys-latest-bank-bailout-has-created-a-two-speed-eurozone/#4857e0b844a4

[Trickytreesreds]

Why have you linked to an article from 2012?

oh come on driller, are you denying that the Italian economy is fine? That was re spun this month.
want other pointers?


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-30/european-commission-grants-italy-crisis-%E2%82%AC150bn-bank-bailout-program-prevent-run-depo
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3674024/The-crisis-tearing-Europe-apart-Italy-s-PM-begging-35-billion-bank-bailout-Germans-saying-nein.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/27/italy-eyes-40bn-bank-rescue-as-first-brexit-domino-falls/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40400210

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/8/12119242/brexit-italy-eu-crisis


http://uk.businessinsider.com/italys-political-and-economic-crisis-threatens-europes-stability-2016-7

It's coming and you know it.
I may not know feck all about banking, but if I money in Italian banks, I'd be worried. Just because it hasn't happened yet, is no defence

[SolSigns]

What gives you the right to basically call me a liar?

This, as per you little play above, is a hard fact that I could attest to in court as knowing to be true, this is not an anecdote.

You're becoming a bit of a prick mate.

Really? An heducated man like yourself not knowing what the problems with anecdotal evidence are?

[Vladpie]

Really? An heducated man like yourself not knowing what the problems with anecdotal evidence are?

But it's not anecdotal to me Sir.......

[Vladpie]

Are you sure you're not confusing Italy with Spain? When was Italy bailed out exactly?

And here's another for you

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/824996/Monte-dei-Paschi-European-Union-billion-bailout-Italy-bank-financial-crisis

[drillerpie]

oh come on driller, are you denying that the Italian economy is fine? That was re spun this month.
want other pointers?


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-30/european-commission-grants-italy-crisis-%E2%82%AC150bn-bank-bailout-program-prevent-run-depo
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3674024/The-crisis-tearing-Europe-apart-Italy-s-PM-begging-35-billion-bank-bailout-Germans-saying-nein.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/27/italy-eyes-40bn-bank-rescue-as-first-brexit-domino-falls/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40400210

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/8/12119242/brexit-italy-eu-crisis


http://uk.businessinsider.com/italys-political-and-economic-crisis-threatens-europes-stability-2016-7

It's coming and you know it.
I may not know feck all about banking, but if I money in Italian banks, I'd be worried. Just because it hasn't happened yet, is no defence

Zero hedge is the fake news site that put stories out about EU officials insulting Britain during the referendum last year.

The Telegraph, Vox, and Business Insider articles are all more than a year old.

The BBC article is recent but reports on the Italian government solving the problem, so proves the opposite of what you want it to.

This is almost embarrassing.

[drillerpie]

What gives you the right to basically call me a liar?

This, as per you little play above, is a hard fact that I could attest to in court as knowing to be true, this is not an anecdote.

You're becoming a bit of a prick mate.

Did you read the definition? Was yours not a personal account of something that happened to you?

[drillerpie]

And here's another for you

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/824996/Monte-dei-Paschi-European-Union-billion-bailout-Italy-bank-financial-crisis

Did you actually read that article or just go all in based on the headline?

[SolSigns]

But it's not anecdotal to me Sir.......

Well, that's fair enough - but you were trying to extrapolate your experience to the wider world which just makes it worthless in terms of evidence.

[Elite_Pie]

Freddie Starr once ate Vlad's hamster. It was headline news so it must be true.

[Vladpie]

Did you actually read that article or just go all in based on the headline?

The EU has directly allowed Italian banks to be rescued, regardless of how it was done. Governments are not supposed to be allowed to aid national companies with bailouts, that why our government did it by buying shared in HBOS.

[Vladpie]

Well, that's fair enough - but you were trying to extrapolate your experience to the wider world which just makes it worthless in terms of evidence.

A court wouldn't say that if I gave the evidence, they may if it was third hand from you but I'd be a witness just like any other.

Based on what you're saying, any account from anyone is anecdotal, it's not, only if that account is second or third hand.

[BigFatPie]

If I was teaching kids the value of critical thinking in the internet age, I would start my lesson by showing them this thread.

It would be great in helping them to catch out bullsh!tters as well.

[drillerpie]

The EU has directly allowed Italian banks to be rescued, regardless of how it was done. Governments are not supposed to be allowed to aid national companies with bailouts, that why our government did it by buying shared in HBOS.

So what's the relevance to the original point? The EU didn't pay for the bail out so what did you bring it up for?

[SolSigns]

A court wouldn't say that if I gave the evidence, they may if it was third hand from you but I'd be a witness just like any other.

Based on what you're saying, any account from anyone is anecdotal, it's not, only if that account is second or third hand.

It's not based on what I'm saying, Vlad, not even on here. There is near universal distrust of anecdotal evidence for many (good) reasons.

The court example you give doesn't work because courts don't try to extrapolate one incident to prove a theory. The correct analogy would be you saying that defendant Greek A must have not paid taxes because your friend Greek B didn't pay her taxes.

[Vladpie]

It's not based on what I'm saying, Vlad, not even on here. There is near universal distrust of anecdotal evidence for many (good) reasons.

The court example you give doesn't work because courts don't try to extrapolate one incident to prove a theory. The correct analogy would be you saying that defendant Greek A must have not paid taxes because your friend Greek B didn't pay her taxes.

Regardless, I KNOW, that a great many self employed Greeks don't pay tax, over and out.

[Vladpie]

So what's the relevance to the original point? The EU didn't pay for the bail out so what did you bring it up for?

Because Italy is failing and the EU has all but bailed it out by bending the rules to accommodate it, they may as well have given the money themselves.

Was it you that was accused of deliberately not wanting to understand, can't believe why?

I'm bored off this, we're driving up to the Arctic Circle tonight (really, 1500KM), enjoy the match tomorrow.

[SolSigns]

Regardless, I KNOW, that a great many self employed Greeks don't pay tax, over and out.

The only way you could KNOW that would be if you'd audited their tax returns. Even if you had, what [an unspecified number of Greeks] did does not mean that's what all Greeks do, or even what the majority of Greeks do.

There is evidence that tax avoidance is a big problem in Greece, but what your ex did is not it.

[Elite_Pie]

Regardless, I KNOW, that a great many self employed Greeks don't pay tax, over and out.

Nice one Vlad, if you put "I KNOW" in capitals then it must be true.

"I KNOW" is the new "FACT"!

[SolSigns]

Interesting points about discussing the Greek tax issue here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33479946

[drillerpie]

Because Italy is failing and the EU has all but bailed it out by bending the rules to accommodate it, they may as well have given the money themselves.

Was it you that was accused of deliberately not wanting to understand, can't believe why?

I'm bored off this, we're driving up to the Arctic Circle tonight (really, 1500KM), enjoy the match tomorrow.

Italy could bailed its banks out if it wasn't not on the EU, Italy is in the EU and bailed its banks out. Your point is a complete non sequitur and you haven't helped me understand the connection between black economy and EU membership at all.

[Vladpie]

Italy could bailed its banks out if it wasn't not on the EU

Perhaps you ain't as bright as we all thought you were then?

Off to the Arctic

[drillerpie]

Perhaps you ain't as bright as we all thought you were then?

Off to the Arctic

Yep when you've got no arguments left to cling to, that's a godsend really isn't it?

[TheBlackHorse]

...... in life, some people can be compared to salmon and guppies. Salmon tend to know where they’re going; guppies tend to feed aimlessly on scraps. Drillerpie is a guppy. Leaders tend to make decisions knowing, often at best, 80% of the facts. Dp probably wants all the facts and even then wouldn’t make a decision or come to a conclusion.
Italy was a corrupt state before the EU was invented. The EU simply enabled the further spread of its disgusting tentacles in business and those running the EU are either blind or complicit because they are powerless and/or lack the will to stop the corruption. The name of the EU game is always compromise and the corrupt know this. You cannot compromise with corruption; but those in power do because power corrupts absolutely.
So, we mustn’t shoot those nasty boat traffickers as they might take us to the Court of Human Rights. Instead, we’ll take the nice 1000Euro’s they so kindly offered and help them on their way.
At this point, dp asks for evidence of bribary. Dp, go forth ...

[AltyPie]

Interesting thread. I suppose one relevance to the EU is that as we all contribute, you’d want to know if one of your partners had a large %, relative to you, of working age population working in the black economy for obvious reasons.

I had a go at looking at some actual stats/links on this.

Link here : http://www.italianinsider.it/?q=node/4470
Says that 3.5 million Italians work in the black economy. I also found there’s about 38,800,000 Italians of working age – so that’s about 10% of the working age population in the black economy. It’s not exact I know, but let’s say that means about 10% of the actual Italian GDP is from the black economy as well.

This link from 2013 : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10097303/Black-market-is-10pc-of-UK-economy-says-IEA.html
Says that about 10% of the UK economy is from the black market.

This link (2014): http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-underground-economy-poised-to-grow/a-17408836
Says in Germany the parallel economy will amount to about 12% GDP.

Based on this brief (and not very extensive) research it doesn’t look at first glance like any of the three countries, UK, Germany or Italy are very much worse than each other in terms of %GDP coming from the black economy.

[drillerpie]

The bail out would not have happened if they were not EU members, it was done to stabilise the Euro and prevent the monetary union from collapsing. Until this loan is repaid, are they net contributors in the true sense?

The same with, Portugal, Greece and ROI

This post proves Vlad hasn't the faintest idea what he is talking about and was trying to wing it.

He says the Italian govt's bailout of Italian banks wouldn't have happened if Italy wasn't in the EU (nonsense) and that there was some kind of loan from the EU to Italy which needs to be repaid, and as such Italy can't be considered a net contributor, even though it is one (also nonsense).

[drillerpie]

...... in life, some people can be compared to salmon and guppies. Salmon tend to know where they’re going; guppies tend to feed aimlessly on scraps. Drillerpie is a guppy. Leaders tend to make decisions knowing, often at best, 80% of the facts. Dp probably wants all the facts and even then wouldn’t make a decision or come to a conclusion.
Italy was a corrupt state before the EU was invented. The EU simply enabled the further spread of its disgusting tentacles in business and those running the EU are either blind or complicit because they are powerless and/or lack the will to stop the corruption. The name of the EU game is always compromise and the corrupt know this. You cannot compromise with corruption; but those in power do because power corrupts absolutely.
So, we mustn’t shoot those nasty boat traffickers as they might take us to the Court of Human Rights. Instead, we’ll take the nice 1000Euro’s they so kindly offered and help them on their way.
At this point, dp asks for evidence of bribary. Dp, go forth ...

I'm sure that sounded amazing in your head.

[tarquinbeech]

This post proves Vlad hasn't the faintest idea what he is talking about and was trying to wing it.

He says the Italian govt's bailout of Italian banks wouldn't have happened if Italy wasn't in the EU (nonsense) and that there was some kind of loan from the EU to Italy which needs to be repaid, and as such Italy can't be considered a net contributor, even though it is one (also nonsense).

Attached is a 13-page report explaining why Italy is pretty much a basket-case of Economic problems, that threatens to collapse the EU.

http://www.cer.eu/sites/default/files/pb_italy_FG_CO_20dec16.pdf

The report is only 7 months old, full of graphs and plain-speak.....the first 2 charts alone show how unemployment is horrendous at 12%, GDP growth is only 0.5% over the last 22 YEARS and is worse than Greece's growth......I honestly didn't think there was an major EU contributor that could be in worse growth than Greece!

EU approval ratings now has Italy as the 3rd WORST country in the whole of the EU....only Greece and Czech Republic are considered "worse" risk countries.

There is a whole section on the Banking Sector which is known to be carrying 350 Billion in bad debts, with their assets set to be revalued by forthcoming new EU rules......several Italian banks have already been bailed out, and if many more continue to struggle then it could bring down the whole EU "pack of cards"

Banking extract - In the autumn of that year, the government rescued four
small banks (Banca Etruria, CaRiFe, CaRiChieti and Banca
Marche). In the process, the government had to wipe out
their shareholders and impose losses on (‘bail in’) junior
bondholders, many of whom were retail investors. There
were widespread protests, despite a fund to compensate
retail investors who had bought these bonds without
being properly informed about the risk.
The four small banks were just the tip of an iceberg,
however. Italian banks currently carry over €350 billion in
non-performing loans (NPLs). Even though the value of
NPLs seems to have stabilised and Italian banks have set
aside funds to cover losses, NPLs weigh on banks’ ability
to lend for three reasons. First, provisioning for losses and
managing NPLs reduces profits. Second, regulation forces
banks to fund NPLs with more of their own funds, leaving
less capital to fund new lending. Some banks, including
Intesa Sanpaolo, the country’s largest, have a strong
capital position, but others, such as Carige or Monte dei
Paschi di Siena (MPS), are substantially weaker. Third,
banks with large holdings of NPLs are perceived as riskier,
increasing their funding costs.

[tarquinbeech]

So what's the relevance to the original point? The EU didn't pay for the bail out so what did you bring it up for?


Driller - The EU imposes rules on member countries, so that they don't have to prop up failing countries (like Greece) when they get into an even bigger mess. This is effectively the Stability and Growth pact where countries cannot borrow beyond a certain %age of it's GDP

Certain countries like Germany and France can break the rules because they are too big to bully......Italy has now joined the "club" by bailing out it's banks with tax-payer's money and ECB loans....and the EU were complicit in turning a blind eye (two of the banks were sold for 1 Euro, but the true cost to the tax payer is 5 billion in cash plus 12 billion in "guarantees")

Those ECB loans include purchasing Italian Bonds......so actually the EU, via the ECB DID pay to bail-out Italian banks BTW.

So why do the EU allow these "bigger" countries to break the rules and prop up their failing political parties by borrowing yet more from the EU via QE?.....because they are frightened of political unrest and the further rise of the EuroSceptic parties.

They've already seen that the UK has told them to "do one", narrowly escaped a disaster in France despite the rise of Le Pen and now it has to placate Italian banking customers that were set to lose billions.

Basically it's **** the rules, elections are on the horizon and we need Jobs-for-the-Boys and Business-as-Usual.....kick the debt down the road, someone will pay for it all, one day.

[tarquinbeech]

Jesus Christ almighty. 25% of the working Italian population do not work on the black economy. There might be pockets of the south (ie below Rome) where that is true but nationally no way. It is simply untrue. I don't know what else I can say.

I still don't understand what that has got to do with the EU but it looks like you're going for an NCM first of logging on to comment on a thread and then spending the next ten posts refusing to defend your point of view.



Driller - Whilst it's not actually possible to work out the precise number of people working in the "Black Economy" for obvious reasons, it IS possible to work out the amount of VAT fraud involved, by country, in a league table simply by knowing the size of the GDP (goods and services) and the amount of VAT collected.

I'm sure that you're aware, being a reasonably educated person, that a report is published annually by the EU, in line with their regulatory and fiscal checks of member countries.

The "accepted" level of VAT fraud is around 10%, with the UK coming in at almost dead on 10% for 2013 and 2014.....Sweden were the clear "honesty" winners at 1%, Lux 3.8% and Finland 7%.

The out-and-out "cheats" were Romania 38%, Lithuania 36% and Malta 35%.......strangely enough both Greece and Italy were also rather naughty at 27% ie almost 3-times the level of the "norm" and actually ABOVE the level of Vlad's assessment of those working in the Black Economy.

Whether it proves his point is open to debate.....but it sure highlights the fact that both Italy and Greece have huge problems collecting taxes, a point often highlighted in various EU articles to be found online.

EU commission report here:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2936_it.htm

The report is in Italian, but the pdf download - top right is in English with league tables

Edit - Italy's "missing" VAT of 37 Billion, is over 20% of the total missing monies in the whole of the EU, (160 Billion in 2014).....AND IS ACTUALLY THE LARGEST AMOUNT BY ANY SINGLE COUNTRY (France was 2nd on 24 Billion, Germany on 23 Billion and UK on 18 Billion) ......Scary huh?

[drillerpie]

Tarquin - a few specific points about this thread to start with:

Italy's low growth coincides with Berlusconi time in power. That's what happens when you spend all your time and effort making laws to keep yourself filthy rich and out of prison. Tax evasion didn't start with him but he certainly didn't help with that either, constantly showing tax evaders in a sympathetic light on his tv channels.

The UK is a major European contributor with slower growth than Greece.

You describe quantitative easing as a loan from the EU, but it isn't.

I'm not sure but I presume the rate of VAT fraud is calculated from registered transactions? If that's the case it's completely unrelated to the black economy which is by definition hidden.

I feel the need to point out that I commented on two specific things on this thread - the political orientations of the main Italian parties and the fact that 25% of Italian workers absolutely do not work cash in hand. I stand completely by what I wrote about these two points.

I have never said that tax evasion isn't a problem or that the Italian economy is in exemplary condition. Pointing out that it isn't doesn't make me wrong.

A couple of general points:

The Italian banking sector won't be allowed to go bust any more than the UK one was. Banks going bust means chaos and rightly or wrongly no major government will let it happen. The real problem is the way lending is (or isn't) regulated meaning a bank can be exposed for many many times more than its cash deposits.

Before we start feeling too superior to the Italians we should look at our huge private debt bubble.

[tarquinbeech]

Tarquin - a few specific points about this thread to start with:

Italy's low growth coincides with Berlusconi time in power. That's what happens when you spend all your time and effort making laws to keep yourself filthy rich and out of prison. Tax evasion didn't start with him but he certainly didn't help with that either, constantly showing tax evaders in a sympathetic light on his tv channels.

The UK is a major European contributor with slower growth than Greece.

You describe quantitative easing as a loan from the EU, but it isn't.

I'm not sure but I presume the rate of VAT fraud is calculated from registered transactions? If that's the case it's completely unrelated to the black economy which is by definition hidden.

I feel the need to point out that I commented on two specific things on this thread - the political orientations of the main Italian parties and the fact that 25% of Italian workers absolutely do not work cash in hand. I stand completely by what I wrote about these two points.

I have never said that tax evasion isn't a problem or that the Italian economy is in exemplary condition. Pointing out that it isn't doesn't make me wrong.

A couple of general points:

The Italian banking sector won't be allowed to go bust any more than the UK one was. Banks going bust means chaos and rightly or wrongly no major government will let it happen. The real problem is the way lending is (or isn't) regulated meaning a bank can be exposed for many many times more than its cash deposits.

Before we start feeling too superior to the Italians we should look at our huge private debt bubble.

Driller,

Point one - You appear to be saying that the Italian tax evasion is there, and it's linked to the fact that their PM is a crook.....so along with the EU's own assessment of 27% tax evasion of VAT.....we appear to be in agreement, but you're not happy with the figure of 25% Black Economy (which by definition, can never be proved)

Point two - No idea why you are comparing the UK with Greece?

Point three - The ECB is the arm of the EU that regulates the strength of the Euro. One of it's stated methods is using QE to print money and buy Government Bonds in struggling EU countries......therefore if the Italians lob 20 Billion at their struggling banks, THEN REFUSE TO COLLECT TAXES, it is ultimately the ECB/EU that is picking up the tab......there are various articles online explaining the con.....type in "Italian Banks, too small to fail"

Point four - VAT fraud is NOT unrelated to the Black Economy......if the EU know that Italy had net imports of 20,000 air-con units that "disappeared" into the system without net VAT receipts, then someone had to fit them (my son works in the air-con industry).
Each unit has a re-sale value PLUS a labour charge for fitting and servicing which attracts VAT......the same with satellite systems, solar roofing etc etc etc.......so if 27% of vat-able "stuff" is going missing, by the EU's own on-line assessment.....there is a phenomenal amount of people working cash-in-hand.
That's why the EU have reprimanded the Italians.

Point five - Agreed, the repeal of Glass-Steagall was the start ..............and Labour's handling of the 2008 Banking Crisis was a disgrace IMO

Point six - Reports this week are that Private Debt is getting worse, not better.....I'm buying Silver.....if we get another major crash, FIAT currency will be worthless.

[Old_pie]

Driller,

Point one - You appear to be saying that the Italian tax evasion is there, and it's linked to the fact that their PM is a crook.....so along with the EU's own assessment of 27% tax evasion of VAT.....we appear to be in agreement, but you're not happy with the figure of 25% Black Economy (which by definition, can never be proved)

I don't know if Wedgie can confirm this but at least in certain parts of the South of Italy everyone is fed up with austerity and there is an increase in regular shops and businesses doing a "part cash" payment so that a lower receipt can be issued and this is done with the support of the population at large. Whether this is on top of or part of the figures you mention is anyone's guess.

[tarquinbeech]

I don't know if Wedgie can confirm this but at least in certain parts of the South of Italy everyone is fed up with austerity and there is an increase in regular shops and businesses doing a "part cash" payment so that a lower receipt can be issued and this is done with the support of the population at large. Whether this is on top of or part of the figures you mention is anyone's guess.


Even with "austerity", Italy's debt mountain continues to sky-rocket......despite Berlusconi not having been in power since 2011 (I'm not sure why Driller brought him into the argument if he's been absent for 6 years?)

I pulled up the balance sheet from the ECB, and was astonished at Italy's debt.....which continues to grow alarmingly.

2014 - 1.8 trillion....111.1% of GDP
2015 - 1.82 trillion....110.8 % of GDP
2016 - 1.87 trillion....112% of GDP
2017 (June) - 1.92 trillion....115.1% of GDP

Italy ADDED 50 billion to their debt-mountain between 2015 and 2016......then another 50 billion in the next 6 months (if I've got my maths correct, these huge numbers are difficult to work with, let alone mentally grasp)......WOW

So basically the Italian Government prop up their failing banks with taxpayers money, then run to the ECB to borrow it back again.....I found on-line articles in both the FT and Forbes explaining the "con" and why the EU allowed this to happen.

Note - The above figures are ONLY Italy's debt to the ECB, if you add in all the other Italian debt......it leaps to 2.28 trillion (no idea how many zeros that is!)...or 132.6% of GDP as at Q4 2016......if it was a business, it would be declared bankrupt and they'd be selling of Roman artifacts.

[Trickytreesreds]

Even with "austerity", Italy's debt mountain continues to sky-rocket......despite Berlusconi not having been in power since 2011 (I'm not sure why Driller brought him into the argument if he's been absent for 6 years?)

I pulled up the balance sheet from the ECB, and was astonished at Italy's debt.....which continues to grow alarmingly.

2014 - 1.8 trillion....111.1% of GDP
2015 - 1.82 trillion....110.8 % of GDP
2016 - 1.87 trillion....112% of GDP
2017 (June) - 1.92 trillion....115.1% of GDP

Italy ADDED 50 billion to their debt-mountain between 2015 and 2016......then another 50 billion in the next 6 months (if I've got my maths correct, these huge numbers are difficult to work with, let alone mentally grasp)......WOW

So basically the Italian Government prop up their failing banks with taxpayers money, then run to the ECB to borrow it back again.....I found on-line articles in both the FT and Forbes explaining the "con" and why the EU allowed this to happen.

Note - The above figures are ONLY Italy's debt to the ECB, if you add in all the other Italian debt......it leaps to 2.28 trillion (no idea how many zeros that is!)...or 132.6% of GDP as at Q4 2016......if it was a business, it would be declared bankrupt and they'd be selling of Roman artifacts.

No, not true.
The Europhiles tell us it is all fine, The EU is a wonderful place of space dust and fairies. Nothing to see here, move along.

[tarquinbeech]

No, not true.
The Europhiles tell us it is all fine, The EU is a wonderful place of space dust and fairies. Nothing to see here, move along.

This is the thread that Driller admits he was using to try to get Vlad banned....count how many times they baited him earlier in the thread, they know he's got a short fuse......it annoys me that his anecdotal story of 25% of the country was avoiding taxes/working in the Black Economy, was probably not far from the truth ie even the EU has publicly stated that 27% of VAT goes unpaid....then their spat about the EU propping up Italian banks.....no, not directly...but if Italians don't pay taxes, then let the Government hand out 20 billion in guarantees and actual cash THEN borrow another 50 billion from the ECB then it's blindingly obvious to me at least that it's the EU that funded the bank bailouts

If I'd spotted the "witch-hunt" earlier I could have used actual figures to balance the argument......c'est la vie.

[Trickytreesreds]

This is the thread that Driller admits he was using to try to get Vlad banned....count how many times they baited him earlier in the thread, they know he's got a short fuse......it annoys me that his anecdotal story of 25% of the country was avoiding taxes/working in the Black Economy, was probably not far from the truth ie even the EU has publicly stated that 27% of VAT goes unpaid....then their spat about the EU propping up Italian banks.....no, not directly...but if Italians don't pay taxes, then let the Government hand out 20 billion in guarantees and actual cash THEN borrow another 50 billion from the ECB then it's blindingly obvious to me at least that it's the EU that funded the bank bailouts

If I'd spotted the "witch-hunt" earlier I could have used actual figures to balance the argument......c'est la vie.

I missed it Tarkers, or I'd have had my two pennies worth.
Vlad, is a good lad. Short fused, but we all are in certain ways.

What infuriates me, is that under the current banning system. You are effectively banned from Footy mad and not just one forum.
Whoever did this, needs to look in the mirror. A major slap down would have done for the crime.
Lesson learned for the baiters and victim.

[Elite_Pie]

What infuriates me, is that under the current banning system. You are effectively banned from Footy mad and not just one forum.

You still don't get it do you? I suppose that's not surprising seeing as you are one of the worst three mods in Footymad history (Basie and Romanis are the other two). The job of a moderator is to apply forum rules, not to ban people based on personal dislikes. The continuing tumbleweed blowing across your board is perfect testament to how completely, utterly useless the three of you were.

[Trickytreesreds]

You still don't get it do you? I suppose that's not surprising seeing as you are one of the worst three mods in Footymad history (Basie and Romanis are the other two). The job of a moderator is to apply forum rules, not to ban people based on personal dislikes. The continuing tumbleweed blowing across your board is perfect testament to how completely, utterly useless the three of you were.

Oh wow, Mr perfect, rules again.

If I was to follow protocol, I'd have banned you months ago.Under the new rules, that's a permanent. Think about it.
Before you get all uppity, BOARD DISRUPTION. You even do it in here.

That's why I defer all my rulings to HQ. They decide. Much as I'd have loved to have kicked your arse into touch. I never did it.

[Elite_Pie]

Oh wow, Mr perfect, rules again.

If I was to follow protocol, I'd have banned you months ago. Before you get all uppity, BOARD DISRUPTION. You even do it in here.

Ah, the good old 'board disruption' rule!!! Isn't that the one Romanis invented (along with the equally ridiculous gambling and religious ones) to try and get rid of me? It can be roughly translated as "if your opinion disagrees with mine, I don't have the intellect to formulate a counter argument so I'll ban you".

You obviously missed the bit where I said "The job of a moderator is to apply forum rules, not to ban people based on personal dislikes".

[Trickytreesreds]

Ah, the good old 'board disruption' rule!!! Isn't that the one Romanis invented (along with the equally ridiculous gambling and religious ones) to try and get rid of me? It can be roughly translated as "if your opinion disagrees with mine, I don't have the intellect to formulate a counter argument so I'll ban you".

You obviously missed the bit where I said "The job of a moderator is to apply forum rules, not to ban people based on personal dislikes".

OFFS, it's in the rules

You know what, I wish I had booted your ass off here now.

Good night, I'm, not going to get into a slanging match with you, that you obviously desire. You need help you really do.

To the mod who banned Vlad. Bring him back please, he can't be any worse than this dolt.

[Elite_Pie]

OFFS, it's in the rules.

Yaaaaawn. We all know it's in the rules, but it relies on a moderator with a brain to interpret that rule sensibly and impartially.

Let's just say that's an epic fail where you're concerned, as your board proves.

[Trickytreesreds]

Yaaaaawn. We all know it's in the rules, but it relies on a moderator with a brain to interpret that rule sensibly and impartially.

Let's just say that's an epic fail where you're concerned, as your board proves.

Last word on this, because you fall right in there-

-Keep your posts on-topic and free of spam and/or unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous & indecent content. Your posts may be removed and the thread may be closed (or deleted) as a result of this.
-While we all like a bit of banter, please do not constantly instigate arguments by 'baiting'/'winding up' other members.
-If you are younger than 18, you shouldn't be posting on footyMad. You are, however, free to read through the forums.

[Elite_Pie]

Last word on this, because you fall right in there-

-Keep your posts on-topic and free of spam and/or unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous & indecent content. Your posts may be removed and the thread may be closed (or deleted) as a result of this.
-While we all like a bit of banter, please do not constantly instigate arguments by 'baiting'/'winding up' other members.
-If you are younger than 18, you shouldn't be posting on footyMad. You are, however, free to read through the forums.

Right, so on that basis I should be banned but Vlad shouldn't????

I'll have one last try to penetrate your thick skull:

The job of a moderator is to apply forum rules, not to ban people based on personal dislikes.

[SmiffyPie]

Oh FFS. How phucking boring.

[tarquinbeech]

Oh FFS. How phucking boring.

It honestly never stops....I'm not taking sides here, but this has been going on for years on here.

When I make a huge faux pas, I normally come back on (having thought about it)....and apologise....it's simple....hopefully the individual accepts the apology and if not I BAR MYSELF FOR A WEEK.......I ain't a saint.......... though I know when I'm wrong.

Hopefully Vlad comes back with a different frame of mind,............... if not RIP

Now I'll leave the two of them to fight it out......again.

[i961pie]

Seconds out round 3,568:P

[Trickytreesreds]

Seconds out round 3,568:P

61, I'm done with it.
He can bait all he wants, I won't drag the board down.
Sorry

[Elite_Pie]

61, I'm done with it.
He can bait all he wants, I won't drag the board down.
Sorry

Added to my extensive post archives.

Filed in the "I bet you do" folder.

[i961pie]

Round 3,569;D

[Trickytreesreds]

Round 3,569;D

He lives for it 61, Respecpa

[Elite_Pie]

He lives for it 61, Respecpa

So after saying "61, I'm done with it. He can bait all he wants, I won't drag the board down", he's back in already!

At least it gives Smiffy another chance to tell everyone how much it bores him.

[Trickytreesreds]

So after saying "61, I'm done with it. He can bait all he wants, I won't drag the board down", he's back in already!

At least it gives Smiffy another chance to tell everyone how much it bores him.

lol, I think you're brill
I am not having a go at you. You do it yourself.
Classic

[Elite_Pie]

lol, I think you're brill.

Despite miserable old buggers like Smiffy, I think many share that opinion on here.

[Trickytreesreds]

Despite miserable old buggers like Smiffy, I think many share that opinion on here.

You're a legend EP.
Make on that what you will pmsl

[Elite_Pie]

You're a legend EP.
Make on that what you will pmsl

I'm guessing that you think I'm a legend.

I'd like my statue placed in a phone box.

[The-Mac pie]

I'm guessing that you think I'm a legend.

I'd like my statue placed in a phone box.

Make of that what you want..
Them London phone boxes have many buisness cards in

[i961pie]

Make of that what you want..
Them London phone boxes have many buisness cards in

Are you speaking from experience?;D

[The-Mac pie]

I should of just highlighted "card"