Passchendaele

[oldcolner]

Watched the programme last night celebrating (if that's the word) 100 years since this battle started in Ypres. My uncle was killed there on Sep 20 1917 fighting with the East Lancs regiment and then the Machine Gun Corps.
Thought it was well done.
We have his wallet with letters to and from him in it and his medals - the letters make sad reading and bring home the realities of war. Will watch the rest over the next three months.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Both of my grandfathers fought there and died prematurely from the injuries they received during the campaign.

The history of the Accrington Pals during the First World War really does bring home the complete disregard the ruling classes had for their cannon fodder.

Heart breaking, it really is.

[Altobelli]

Wars started by men in high places wearing suits and doing the most dangerous thing which is putting pen to paper.

No war or any aggression sits well with me, not nice the both of you losing Grandfathers/Uncles in such dreadful circumstances although personal belongings even if hard to view are constant nice memories of them showing they will not be forgotten.

[oldcolner]

Wars started by men in high places wearing suits and doing the most dangerous thing which is putting pen to paper.

No war or any aggression sits well with me, not nice the both of you losing Grandfathers/Uncles in such dreadful circumstances although personal belongings even if hard to view are constant nice memories of them showing they will not be forgotten.

The British Legion are looking to remember everyone on here. 320,000 done 850,000 still to be remembered.
https://www.everyoneremembered.org

General Haig developed the Battle plan -
The Third Battle of Ypres was, like its predecessors, a costly exercise. The British Expeditionary Force (BEF) incurred some 310,000 casualties, with a similar, lower, number of German casualties: 260,000.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Those numbers are a blot on the history of the British Empire. Every time this resurfaces it makes my blood boil.

I am sure that Kate Middleton was struggling to hold back the tears at one stage?

[oldcolner]

Those numbers are a blot on the history of the British Empire. Every time this resurfaces it makes my blood boil.

I am sure that Kate Middleton was struggling to hold back the tears at one stage?

Many more came back physically and or mentally damaged, there were a good number of men missing limbs in my youth and not much support for those with shell shock. A lot, some with shell shock got shot for cowardice for refusing to go into battle again.
Post traumatic stress disorder hadn't been invented.

[Altobelli]

Many more came back physically and or mentally damaged, there were a good number of men missing limbs in my youth and not much support for those with shell shock. A lot, some with shell shock got shot for cowardice for refusing to go into battle again.
Post traumatic stress disorder hadn't been invented.

Nothing much has changed Colner, Post traumatic stress disorder may be recognised nowadays, but the rest forget it, Go to War for your Country and when and if you return with arms, legs, sight missing or hearing impaired we will make a token gesture and then forget about you.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Nothing much has changed Colner, Post traumatic stress disorder may be recognised nowadays, but the rest forget it, Go to War for your Country and when and if you return with arms, legs, sight missing or hearing impaired we will make a token gesture and then forget about you.

This is how the caring, sharing austerity mad Tories reward our heroes...

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/war-hero-who-lost-both-legs-in-afghanistan-no-longer-allowed-treatment-at-english-hospital-because-hes-scottish/ar-AAoX9ON?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp

[sinkov]

Haven't seen this, what channel is it on OC, I'll have a look on catch-up. My old aunty used to tell me that my grandad, her dad, had his big toe missing, he shot himself in the foot deliberately to get sent back to Blightly on sick leave. I was too young to ever ask him about this, but I've no reason to doubt it. I suppose a missing toe was a small price to pay when the shells were raining down on you on a daily basis.

[sinkov]

This is how the caring, sharing austerity mad Tories reward our heroes...

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/war-hero-who-lost-both-legs-in-afghanistan-no-longer-allowed-treatment-at-english-hospital-because-hes-scottish/ar-AAoX9ON?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp

Not a problem, they just need assurance that the Scottish NHS will fund the treatment. Which of course they will, won't they ? Of course this isn't a problem of the Tories making, it's what you get when cretinous Labour politicians decide it's a good idea to devolve power to Nationalists in Scotland.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

I wondered when you would pop up sinkov...:(

[sinkov]

Those numbers are a blot on the history of the British Empire.

Yes indeed it's shameful, and nothing of course to do with the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Russian Empire, the French Empire or the German Empire. Not to mention the Serbs, the Italians, the Bosnians and various other powers complicit in causing the carnage.

[oldcolner]

Haven't seen this, what channel is it on OC, I'll have a look on catch-up. My old aunty used to tell me that my grandad, her dad, had his big toe missing, he shot himself in the foot deliberately to get sent back to Blightly on sick leave. I was too young to ever ask him about this, but I've no reason to doubt it. I suppose a missing toe was a small price to pay when the shells were raining down on you on a daily basis.

It's been on BBC2 Sinkov, starting 19.00 and then today at various times.
Sounds like you may not have been here but for the toe.

[sinkov]

It's been on BBC2 Sinkov, starting 19.00 and then today at various times.
Sounds like you may not have been here but for the toe.

Never thought of it like that OC, but you could be right. Thanks for the info, I'll have a look for it.

[sinkov]

I wondered when you would pop up sinkov...:(

No need to wonder BT, you keep posting lefty drivel, and I'll keep popping up to point it out.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Yes indeed it's shameful, and nothing of course to do with the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Russian Empire, the French Empire or the German Empire. Not to mention the Serbs, the Italians, the Bosnians and various other powers complicit in causing the carnage.

I meant the use of the young men of the British Empire working class who were simply used as cannon fodder. The numbers of dead and wounded beggar belief and I find it impossible to justify and so do most historians.

Also on a personal note, my family with roots deeply embedded in East Lancashire seemed to suffer more than most, although I realise hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people lost their loved ones in Belgium and France.

[oldcolner]

Not a problem, they just need assurance that the Scottish NHS will fund the treatment. Which of course they will, won't they ? Of course this isn't a problem of the Tories making, it's what you get when cretinous Labour politicians decide it's a good idea to devolve power to Nationalists in Scotland.

As you say it's up to NHS Ayrshire to agree to fund his care. I'm surprised The hospital hadn't asked them to take over funding first as I would expect it to be a fairly common situation. Lots of folk move to distant hospitals for specialist treatment.
Perhaps the problem here is he has never been referred by NHS Ayrshire consultants as he came in on an MOD arrangement.

The original plan to devolve powers was a referendum choice by Scottish population and the Parliament was set up to ensure no party would have an overall majority so it would operate on a consensus basis rather than adversarial one, hence the shape of the Chamber
That didn't take account of a subsequent total collapse in the Labour vote in the Blair period which let the SNP into power. As their policies are mainly Socialist they filled the void.

[sinkov]

My point is OC that the Tories under Thatcher and Major were strongly against devolving power to Scotland, it was Labour under Blair and Brown who decided to give Scotland a referendum, and the the Scots said yes please, of course they did. Labour thought that devolution would dampen down, even eliminate, the drive for Scottish independence. As usual they were wrong, it simply fanned the flames and we are where we are now, with the break up of the Union a distinct possibility, totally the opposite of what Labour intended, they thought they were strengthening it.

[sinkov]

I meant the use of the young men of the British Empire working class who were simply used as cannon fodder. The numbers of dead and wounded beggar belief and I find it impossible to justify and so do most historians.


Bloody hell BT, could anyone ever justify such appalling loss of life, or even try to ? With respect, I have to point out that it was not simply the British Empire working class who were used as cannon fodder in this war, if you were in the Army, especially an infantry regiment, you were cannon fodder, regardless of which side you were on, regardless of whether you were working class or not, that was just the way it was.

For example, around 13% of those who fought in the war lost their lives, amongst those who went to Public Schools, in other words the upper classes, it was 20%. At Eton College there is a war memorial with the names of 1,157 Old Etonians who were killed on it. Closer to home, King Edward School Lytham, presumably stocked with the offspring of local mill owners, land owners, businessmen etc, lost 32% of their young men who signed up. All those thousands of poor, young, working class lads going over the top to almost certain death, where do you think the young junior officer, blowing his whistle, leading them over the top to his death as well, came from ? Invariably he was a public school boy, and he was first in the firing line.

It's quite ironic that in this war, while numerically the working class bore the brunt of the casualties obviously, the local mill owner or pit owner was statistically more likely to lose his son, than the weaver, tackler or miner working for him.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

It is widely acknowledged that the losses in the Officer ranks were highly disproportionate to the lower ranks was because the Germans deliberately targeted to kill anyone wearing an Officer rank uniform.

[sinkov]

It is widely acknowledged that the losses in the Officer ranks were highly disproportionate to the lower ranks was because the Germans deliberately targeted to kill anyone wearing an Officer rank uniform.

A German machine gun does not discriminate, it mows down everyone, and the junior officer in front gets it first. Obviously a sniper will seek out an officer but the officer has to be in the firing line in the first place to become a target, which destroys the 'class war' myth perpetuated by the likes of Ben Elton in Blackadder, highly entertaining though it may have been.

I actually read not long ago that schools use Blackadder in their history lessons, I wouldn't have believed it a few years back, but have no doubt it's true enough now. Instead of Elton's version of history I think they'd be better employed reading something like Robert Graves 'Goodbye To All That', an actual description of the horrors of war, the cock-ups, the out of touch Senior officers, who treated the public school junior officers with even more contempt than they treated your average tommy. Well worth a look if you haven't already read it BT. One thing in particular from it stuck in my mind, he was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers, he tells of the various regiments they liked to fight alongside, they were happy to be in the trenches with us Lancastrians, some others they were not so keen on, but they had a special contempt for the French, the civilians they had to live amongst, and especially the French regiments they might have to fight alongside, they dreaded being in the next section to the French, they just couldn't trust them to do the job. Graves says he often heard in the officers mess 'We're on the wrong bloody side in this war, we should be fighting with the Germans'.