Another one into the Black Hole.

[sinkov]

Aiden O'Neill, a year ago he was playing against Chelsea and Liverpool, there was speculation that he might be given an extended run in the first team, after all shouldn't we be giving youth it's chance. Instead of PL football though he was loaned out to Oldham. Now he's gone out on a season's loan to Fleetwood. Not looking good is it ?

[Altobelli]

I don't know how old O'Neil is Sinkov, but he was not good enough as you'd probably agree when he was thrown into our first team because no one else was available at the time, he seems a reasonable player, maybe another loan will bring him more up to standard as only playing can do, only time will tell.

[sinkov]

He's only just gone 19 Alto, so plenty of time yet. He was a regular on our bench well into October, got a few minutes in the Cup in January, then Oldham, now Fleetwood. Just seems to be heading in the wrong direction to me.

[Altobelli]

So many do head in the wrong direction and crash and burn or end up in League One or lower, I was surprised that someone mentioned that we had not had a home grown since JayRod which seems too long ago.

[CaspertheClaret]

Unfortunately its a fact of football that somewhere along the line you plateau.

Most people don't get as far as ONeill - hopefully he hasn't plateaued yet.

Its not just at Burnley this happens but at every club. In fact the higher you are as a club the higher the peak is so more fail before they get up there!

I don't know any stats but I would hazzard a guess we are average or above in bringing through talented youngsters.

[1959_60]

Give the lad a break, eh?

He was just 18 years old when he last played for us - in the Prem!

And Fleetwood are a better outfit than Oldham. With our current crop of midfielders he is hardly likely to break into the first team at the moment.

A good move to give him plenty of competitive game time.

One for the future - watch this space.

[thedonz]

I think it's a good thing that Fleetwood , like Oldham , isn't that far away. He can still easily keep in touch with his teammates. Sometimes things like that are easily overlooked when assessing the development of a young player.

Good luck to the lad, he has a lot of admirers.

[Altobelli]

I don't think anyone is having a pop at him 59_60 as I think we all want our young players to prosper, just maybe saying he's been shelved for the time being as he is not up to scratch especially with him being rushed into the first team as he was, the time at Fleetwood will (I hope) bring the lad on.

[sinkov]

I don't know any stats but I would hazzard a guess we are average or above in bringing through talented youngsters.

It's just a few months short of ten years since Jay made his debut Casper, since then we haven't brought through a single one. I don't know what the average is for bringing young players through, but I would think over a ten year period it's above our average of zero.

[sinkov]

Give the lad a break, eh?


No use asking me to give him a break 59-60, I didn't send him out to D1 on loan, I'm just pointing out that he has been. No use asking our youth development coaches to give them a break either, they cull them with ruthless efficiency every year. They don't need to worry about me, I'm a *****cat in comparison.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Deli Alli went to MK Dons and Harry Kane had several loan moves to gain first team football and it didn't seem to harm them much.

Right now young O'Neill is behind Westwood, Hendrick, Defour, Cork, Arfield, Brady, Marney and Gudmundsson in the pecking order. Perhaps you all think he would be better playing in the Development Squad or cleaning the first team's boots?

[sinkov]

or cleaning the first team's boots?

A year ago he was playing for the first team, never mind cleaning their boots, this year he'll be playing for Fleetwood, providing he can get into their team. Instead of taking this thread as some sort of attack on our young players, why not take it as I intended it, to point out the difficulty our young players face breaking through at this level. And instead of pushing for them to be promoted, as in the case of O'Neill, Agyei, Whitmore and Anderson, piling pressure and unrealistic expectations on them, just accept they're not good enough yet, and they're being loaned out to lower league clubs because that's the level they're at, and it's a long way from PL level.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

It's a gentle learning curve for the younger players sinkov.
A bit of game time here and there, SD allows the developing players some time to be around the first team squad to get a taster.
Sitting in Bolton from my computer chair I can hardly be accused of "piling pressure and unrealistic expectations on them".
I just do not like the pejorative idea of "Another one into the Black Hole. just because the lads are going out on loan to gain valuable playing time and real experience of the lower leagues.
It isn't like we have popped O'Neill on "Do One Airlines" with a one way ticket is it?

[sinkov]

The 'Black Hole' isn't going out on loan BT, it's what's every single one of our scholars has disappeared into since Jay broke through ten years ago now. They arrive, a new intake every year, they're coached, some of them are apparently 'very promising', we even had two different groups that were talented enough to get to the semi-finals of the Youth Cup. And then, as far as our first team is concerned, they vanish, never to be heard of again. I can only assume there's a Black Hole somewhere down Gawthorpe that swallows them up. Hopefully Aidan doesn't get sucked into it as well, but it's looking like he might.

As far as putting pressure on them from a msgboard is concerned, I agree with you, it's a fantasy, and if they are fretting about what appears on a msgboard they're never going to make it at this level anyway. But I'm often told that I shouldn't be negative, or post anything derogatory as this could feedback and influence the players, positivity is all. So it appears some think it can have an influence, and if it can have a negative influence, it could also put pressure on young players. The Positivity Brigade can't have it both ways.

[CaspertheClaret]

Do they all disappear or do some go on to play at decent levels?

It does seem that there aren't many coming through to regularly play in and around our squad, but how does this compare to other Prem squads.

I take we are talking about pure academy talent that have been with us since the age of what 10? 12? etc rather than young players that we have fetched in at the age of 18-20??

I dont know the answers to any of these questions just would like to compare against other Prem squads like for like re developed players making it through.

[sinkov]

I'm just talking about those coming through our youth system Casper, we haven't brought one single player through to our first team since Jay, and apart from Alex McDonald who's made a career in the lower leagues with Burton, Oxford and Mansfield, Shay MCarton who managed about 50 games at Accy, and Luke Conlan who's on the fringes at Morecambe, our youth development system has spent 10 years developing players for non-league clubs, for which I'm sure they're grateful, but it's hardly the desired outcome for us is it.

I honestly don't know the success rate at other clubs, but if any have brought fewer players through to league level than us I'd be amazed.

[1959_60]

I feel confident that several of our lads will make it this time - including Aiden. He is obviously still learning and developing.

Don't forget Marc Pugh, now at Bournemouth and Wes Fletcher at Motherwell in the Scottish Prem.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Not shifting the blame to Eddie Howe but it is generally accepted he dismantled the youth scheme, wrecked the scouting system and then sodded off back to the south coast leaving it all in tatters.

Over the last couple of years SD has really got to grips with it and it is fairly evident a couple of stars will emerge from our ever swelling ranks of youngsters, relatively imminently.

[Supersub6]

It's just as BT says because we were having moderate success at youth level when Eddie Howe arrived, however, that part of the club was definitely placed as very low priority and we suffered accordingly. Add to that the fact that the development side of the game for us was very hit and miss because we were not involved in any really competitive football outside the first team and youth team because of our lack of status.
Now that we have moved up to academy 2 status this should benefit the club all round with the Youth team playing in a better league and the Under 23s being involved in a league of 16 teams, therefore, they will be playing at least 30 competitive matches throughout the season. Also, at least four of the home matches have to be played at Turf Moor so, all in all, the club is moving in the right direction, however, it will still take time to develop players through the system because we were so far behind.

Talking of players coming through though, consider how many of the Chelsea youth set up actually go on to play for the first team. Over the last 10 seasons they have been in 8 finals and won the cup 6 times. You could also consider Manchester City who have played in the last 3 finals and whose set up is also excellent, however, how many players have gone through their ranks and played for the first team?

[The Bedlington Terrier]

I like the oldcolner piece on Monaco and his regular contributions on Clarets legends. It would be truly fantastic if we could attract the likes of Brian O'Neill, Dave Thomas, Ralph Coates, Leighton James all over again? :D

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[sinkov]

I feel confident that several of our lads will make it this time - including Aiden. He is obviously still learning and developing.

Don't forget Marc Pugh, now at Bournemouth and Wes Fletcher at Motherwell in the Scottish Prem.

Pugh left a long while before Jay came through. I believe Wes is now playing non league in Wales. There's only really Alex McDonald who's had a proper career in English league football out of our youth system in ten years. Whatever the reasons, for a club that has been playing in the Championship and PL during that time, just one league player in ten years is a lamentable record.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Sinkov, just give me one name from the likes of Blackburn, Bolton, Oldham, PNE, Blackpool, Bury, Rochdale, Carlisle etc who are all p i s s i n g in the same pot as us who have got a kid who has made it into the EPL?

We are trying really hard to be better on youth development than the others but for some folks trying hard is simply just not good enough.

If you use a little imagination and intellect it might suggest Everton, Liverpool, Manchester United and Manchester City pretty much have a head start on little old Burnley, but goddam, at least we are trying!

[sinkov]

Sinkov, just give me one name from the likes of Blackburn, Bolton, Oldham, PNE, Blackpool, Bury, Rochdale, Carlisle etc who are all p i s s i n g in the same pot as us who have got a kid who has made it into the EPL?



Who said anything about the EPL ? I'm talking about the entire four divisions FFS. Ten years of work, ten years of coaching, and if we'd shut the entire show down after Jay, all that football in this country would have missed would be Alex McDonald. I'm not having a go at Alex, he's a good lad, but that huge set up for ten long years just for Alex. All that time, money and expense, how many man hours went into that, all to produce just one lower league player ?

I said it was a lamentable record but that's being far too kind, it's an effing disgrace.

[BackFromABanning]

We have one from Oldham replacing Keane in our first team.

[CaspertheClaret]

I do agree Sinkov but if you think that in the last 8 years we have become a yo yo club (which is fantastic to say!!!) - the likelihood is that you are going to develop less players. When you are financially cash strapped Lg 1 or 2 club that is when there is a necessity (i.e no other option) than to bring through your yoof.

It is great when a player comes through the ranks but it is not a prerequisite at the top money laden levels.

[sinkov]

We have one from Oldham replacing Keane in our first team.

Welcome back mon ami, and of course you're right. And besides Tarko, thank you to Oldham, we also currently have products of the youth systems of, Charlton, Sheffield United, Leeds, Derby County, Crewe, Falkirk, Shrewsbury, Bournemouth and Plymouth. Where do they find them, we can't.

And the jewel in our current youth crown, Dan Agyei, isn't one of ours either, we nicked him from Wimbledon.

[sinkov]

It is great when a player comes through the ranks but it is not a prerequisite at the top money laden levels.

That's true enough Casper, but we've only just got our mitts on all that filthy lucre. For eight of the last ten years, we've been as strapped as the rest of them.

[CaspertheClaret]

It would be good if we could find a balance now.

I was listening to Chris Iwelumo earlier talking about the lads that had been brought through the youth ranks at Millwall (again as a necessity) and I did feel a pang of jealousy!

[sinkov]

To be fair, as BT says, we do seem to be addressing the problem. But at the same time it's got ever more difficult, before a Championship player would have done us, now he has to make it in the PL to be of any use.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

SD is currently on record as saying he is happy with his pool of centre backs. That statement must mean that Anderson who is in the first team squad is in the reckoning and he came through our youth system.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/burnley_fc/news/15452666.Burnley_could_go_without_defensive_additi ons_as_Sean_Dyche_backs_his_current_centre_backs/?ref=mac

[sinkov]

Strangely Dyche doesn't mention Anderson in that piece, just Mee, Tarko, Long and Taylor. Tom's not established himself as a league player at any level yet, when he does we can add him to the list with McDonald.

[sinkov]

SD is currently on record as saying he is happy with his pool of centre backs. That statement must mean that Anderson who is in the first team squad is in the reckoning and he came through our youth system.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/burnley_fc/news/15452666.Burnley_could_go_without_defensive_additi ons_as_Sean_Dyche_backs_his_current_centre_backs/?ref=mac

I can see the logic of it, Tarko has always been lined up as Keane's replacement, so no surprise there's no big signing coming in, and as we already have a left back in Ward, Taylor can provide the back-up with Long. Last time we converted a left back to CB we didn't do too badly, so it could work. Does seem a bit like penny-pinching though, for a club that's awash with cash.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

I can see the logic of it, Tarko has always been lined up as Keane's replacement, so no surprise there's no big signing coming in, and as we already have a left back in Ward, Taylor can provide the back-up with Long. Last time we converted a left back to CB we didn't do too badly, so it could work. Does seem a bit like penny-pinching though, for a club that's awash with cash.

There's perhaps a different slant to put on this sinkov. Long, Tarkowski have worked hard, waited patiently and been good squad members. What would it do to their confidence and morale if we simply brought in another centre back now?

I know we disagree (what's new?) on Tom Anderson but we have nurtured him and had him out on loan and SD may well consider him good enough to be involved in the bigger picture.

The simple truth is we have Mee, Tarkowski and Long all tried and tested, Tom Anderson is chomping at the bit and additionally we have both Taylor and Ward who can also play at centre half.

Tom Heaton is also doing what a great captain and team leader should do, lament the loss of Keane but insist we won't really miss him that much because of what we already have got!

Reports coming to me suggest that Taylor looks to be an exceptional addition to the squad. It all looks good to me! :D

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[sinkov]

We disagree on how close Tom might be to the first team BT, but it doesn't matter, Sean will make his own mind up. It's a bit of a puzzle to me, Dyche doesn't mention him in that piece, so he appears to be No 5 in the pecking order at best, and so miles off the first team, yet he's still here and I believe Dyche rates him. So just where does he stand with Dyche and BFC, he's not a youth any more, his level should be apparent by now. Has he a future here or are they just waiting for the right club to release him to. Hard to know imo.

We also disagree about Tarko, I don't think there's any doubt that Sean bought him as a potential first choice centre half, and it was simply a case of waiting until Keane went before promoting him. I'm like Sean, I have no worries about him, imo he's better now than Keane was at the same stage. We were never going into the transfer market to replace Keane, nor was Long going to overtake him, Tarko was the replacement all along, he has been since the day we signed him.

And in a way I'm pleased Keane went, I don't think Tarko could be kept on the bench for another season, he's far too good, he'd have found another club, which would have been a disaster for us. So all's well that ends well.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Seems that SD shares your view on Tarkowski. I'm not fazed either way, I think either Tarks or Longy can fill the void left by Keane. In the interests of a young man's career who is a local lad and Clarets Mad, I really hope Tom Anderson can step up to the plate.

If Tarkowski can make a seamless transition and really fill Keane's boots, what a brilliant bit of business that would be!

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[sinkov]

Found two of our more promising youngsters who vanished into the Gawthorpe Black Hole yesterday, Luke Daly and Jamie Frost have come out the other side and were playing at Level 8 for Droylsden at Clitheroe. Both of them looked excellent when I first saw them in the youth team, but they went the way all our youngsters go, into the Black Hole and out into non league. Daly was excellent, captain and ran the midfield, Clitheroe never got the ball off him all afternoon, he looked capable of playing a couple of levels higher at least. Jamie came off the bench and was a real threat. Nevertheless Clitheroe won 2-0.

[thedonz]

Great start from O'Neill yesterday setting up the only goal in Fleetwood's win yesterday. More of that young Aiden please

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Found two of our more promising youngsters who vanished into the Gawthorpe Black Hole yesterday, Luke Daly and Jamie Frost have come out the other side and were playing at Level 8 for Droylsden at Clitheroe. Both of them looked excellent when I first saw them in the youth team, but they went the way all our youngsters go, into the Black Hole and out into non league. Daly was excellent, captain and ran the midfield, Clitheroe never got the ball off him all afternoon, he looked capable of playing a couple of levels higher at least. Jamie came off the bench and was a real threat. Nevertheless Clitheroe won 2-0.

I don't know at which level you played at sinkov. I played for Rossendale Schoolboys and played in the Lancashire Combination and was a decent enough right back but was sadly rather one footed. I once had the misfortune to play against Paul Mariner when he was on his way up through the ranks.

Roasted and toasted! The difference between those that hit the professional ranks and earn their living playing football is miles apart from better than decent amateurs. I honestly thought Steven Hewitt would make it and where is he now?

The Black Hole you describe is heartbreak for lots of lads at different clubs but like Vardy and Gray have proven, if you are good enough you can still make it.

Fine margins sinkov. Fine margins and just because it's tough to unearth a jewel we shouldn't stop digging. :P

[sinkov]

You were obviously a much better player than I was BT, my level was D2 of the Burnley Combination, as it was called in those days. I did once play for Lancs County Fire Brigade against Humberside, but to be honest they were short of players and scraping the barrel when they got round to picking me.

It is fine margins, the level of non league I watch is awash with young lads who have been released by league clubs, and they can all play, including lots of ours. It's hard to know why some make it and others don't, I often think it's not so much in their feet, it's in their heads. It's still a mystery to me though why we have been so spectacularly unsuccessful at bringing players through, just one league player in ten years is abysmal, no matter what the reasons/excuses are.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

You were obviously a much better player than I was BT, my level was D2 of the Burnley Combination, as it was called in those days. I did once play for Lancs County Fire Brigade against Humberside, but to be honest they were short of players and scraping the barrel when they got round to picking me.

It is fine margins, the level of non league I watch is awash with young lads who have been released by league clubs, and they can all play, including lots of ours. It's hard to know why some make it and others don't, I often think it's not so much in their feet, it's in their heads. It's still a mystery to me though why we have been so spectacularly unsuccessful at bringing players through, just one league player in ten years is abysmal, no matter what the reasons/excuses are.

I suppose sadly, they are just not good enough. :(