last nights game

[darrenshedtastic]

sorry if theres already a thread for this but i normally do this sort of stuff for the games i went to.

1st half
first 30mins i dont think united done anything. they should have scored before they did. looked well off the pace. couldnt string two passes together and yet we some how managed to still go in level at half time. it took us 30-40mins to realise it was a derby and up the tempo in our play. when we did that we done better. level at HT but dundee should have been ahead.
2nd half
i thought the 2nd half was scrappy, odd chances for both teams but it was more of a midfield battle, whos picking up 2nd balls and stuff. not alot of quality in the game at that time. then they scored and i think they just took control. we changed things that didnt work and actually made no difference what so ever.
overall
a deserved victory for the bitter lot. we looked too far off the pace and like most derbies in recent years they looked up for it more.

ratings
Lewis
solid enough made a good save in the 2nd half at point blank range. dealt with alot of crosses (some might say struggled) but decent game (7)
Toshney
decent game generally but distribution is shocking (dillion got more pelters when he lost the ball) although defended well most of the game, the winner came from his side again. carbon copy of previous derbies goal. (6)
Edge
defended well at times but struggled with haber who is more physical and aggressive than any Championship strikers. kinda found out as being an average defended who would struggle if we got up :/ (5)
Durnan
done decent enough but similar to edge struggled with haber and el bak. (6)
Scobbie
not on very long but looked like he would have struggled to deal with deacon again (-)
Briels
gets stuck in and has some nice touches but was way off the pace at the start which allowed them to gain momentum. slowly growed into the game but couldnt really control the game. (5)
Fyvie
took his time to get into the game. some nice touches but wanted far too much time at the start. giving benefit of the doubt for 1st start. (6)
Mcmullan
they kept him quiet and didnt really do much in the game. works hard (5)
King
likes to have 4 touches before he does anything. looks decent at times but at other times looks woeful. worked hard (6)
Stanton
when centrally is a big threat and drives the team forward and looked much better in there. will be a big player for us (7)
mcdonald
some nice touches and made things awkward for their CBs without causing too much problems. tired early and should have been taken off but again will be a decent signing for us (5)

subs
Robson
worried when he came on cause thought he'd be dominated by deacon but he done well against him. got stuck in and wasnt scared of him. easily are best player (7) MOTM
Keatings
wasnt on long enough to do anything tbh should start v QotS (-)
Murdoch
wasnt on for long (-)

starting 11/tactics
was surprised with the lineup he went with. dont think Fyvie should have started. hes not played in while so he wouldnt have been match fit. allaydice should have started in there imo. we started with 442 which is a big reason why they dominated us in the first 30mins. they outnumbered us in the middle all the time so they could easily keep the ball while we were struggling to keep the ball. when we changed it to 4231 (moved stanton centrally) we started to play abit and looked more solid as a team.
Durnan up front might work against championship teams but up against more physical teams it doesnt! plus that forced us to start launching the ball up to him which done nothing. before he moved up front we were starting to pass the ball around abit.

subbies
i dont know what he was trying to do with the subbies. scobbie coming off wasnt ideal but mcdonald looked dead on his feet by 70mins and yet he finished the game. he took briels off when we were losing the midfield battle as it is. keatings should have came on for Mcdonald imo. he was obviously just giving murdoch some game time.

Dundee
they deserved to win but i dont think they were miles ahead of us like NM suggests. they have more physical players who were up for it more than us. thats two games where they should have beaten us quite comfortably but havent. yeah a wins a win but they celebrated asif they had won the trophy. i dont think they will go down but i dont see them doing anything in the league (8th, 9th or 10th).

Are all the dundee fans going down to the city square for their trophy parade?? derby wins are added to their major honours

beat qots then we will be in a good position for the league which is priority FTD

[Chick A Saw]

Spot on assessment!

First time this season i didnt like Briels but im not sure if the new midfield partner had something to do with that. But i cant say that Allardice would have done any better. King for me showed again why i had reservations about him, and on another day might have passed for 2 chances and McDonald might have had a goal or 2.

Anyway, as i said last night, the distraction is out the way and we can now concentrate on the league with a wee bit more money in the hipper, but i think some fans will wear last nights hangover for a wee while.

[shedka]

Good summary

Already looking forward to Saturday, would be a big 3 pts against a fresher side, thing is we have a lot of options, once we get everyone upto speed we will be quite strong this season

[ianharab]

Agree with most Darren , but didn't start 4-4-2 , Briels and Fyvie were two holders , Stanton and King wide McMullen of McDonald in a 4-2-3-1 , looked better when Stanton switched in inside , should have played 4-4-2 , that's why I don't like that system we are far to easy to play against and the opposition outnumber us in midfield

[shedboy71]

Agree with most Darren , but didn't start 4-4-2 , Briels and Fyvie were two holders , Stanton and King wide McMullen of McDonald in a 4-2-3-1 , looked better when Stanton switched in inside , should have played 4-4-2 , that's why I don't like that system we are far to easy to play against and the opposition outnumber us in midfield

This

[darrenshedtastic]

Agree with most Darren , but didn't start 4-4-2 , Briels and Fyvie were two holders , Stanton and King wide McMullen of McDonald in a 4-2-3-1 , looked better when Stanton switched in inside , should have played 4-4-2 , that's why I don't like that system we are far to easy to play against and the opposition outnumber us in midfield

well from what i noticed at the start of the game mcmullan and mcdonald were both straight up top when attacking and they were both sitting deeper to stop kamara on the ball and allowing the CBs the ball but for a short spell at one point it was definitely 442. mcmullan started the game very high and central same with mcdonald. we only started to gain some sort of control when we went back into the 4231 with stanton moving centrally. before we changed it, they were getting penetrative balls into their attacking players easily past our midfield but once we changed it that didnt happen again for the rest of the half or much until they scored their 2nd and we began to chase it.

442 left us too open in midfield and allowed them to outnumber us. yes most people dont like the 4231 but it at least allows us to match the 3v3 in their midfield and stop any passes into feet of the strikers which they were getting before the switch.

[stokearab]

well from what i noticed at the start of the game mcmullan and mcdonald were both straight up top when attacking and they were both sitting deeper to stop kamara on the ball and allowing the CBs the ball but for a short spell at one point it was definitely 442. mcmullan started the game very high and central same with mcdonald. we only started to gain some sort of control when we went back into the 4231 with stanton moving centrally. before we changed it, they were getting penetrative balls into their attacking players easily past our midfield but once we changed it that didnt happen again for the rest of the half or much until they scored their 2nd and we began to chase it.

442 left us too open in midfield and allowed them to outnumber us. yes most people dont like the 4231 but it at least allows us to match the 3v3 in their midfield and stop any passes into feet of the strikers which they were getting before the switch.

How can 3 be better in midfield than 4

[shedboy71]

How can 3 be better in midfield than 4

An example ;D its all relative to who plays:

Toshney Fraser Sneider Rojas

versus


Bowman Badger McInally

[Arabdad]

4-2-3-1 works well for Barca because they have world class players to make it work. With the best will in the world we really, really don't. As per the Inverness game we gave the ball away too cheaply when in possession last night and allowed Le Fun to dominate proceedings. Our midfield have clearly been playing too much FIFA 17 based on the number of mid air flicks they tried to pass the ball to an overlapping team mate. Please keep it simple and hold onto the ball. We can and will get better as players get fitter and the team gels but I really believe Ray needs to give serious thought to what the best formation is for our starting 11. Back to bread and butter games on Saturday and we need to get a second league win under our belts, but we will continue to struggle unless we keep possession and pressurise our opponents.

[shedboy71]

4-2-3-1 works well for Barca because they have world class players to make it work. With the best will in the world we really, really don't. As per the Inverness game we gave the ball away too cheaply when in possession last night and allowed Le Fun to dominate proceedings. Our midfield have clearly been playing too much FIFA 17 based on the number of mid air flicks they tried to pass the ball to an overlapping team mate. Please keep it simple and hold onto the ball. We can and will get better as players get fitter and the team gels but I really believe Ray needs to give serious thought to what the best formation is for our starting 11. Back to bread and butter games on Saturday and we need to get a second league win under our belts, but we will continue to struggle unless we keep possession and pressurise our opponents.

2014 - i remember saying this exact phrase OA, GB, AP etc all did. Sid was cooking at the time so didnt have a view but i am sure he would agree.

spot on dad

its essentially a 2 man midfield or 5 man where no one can really do holding, passing and running required. Its a specialist formation that can be devastating but only with the right players

[GUNBOAT]

Agree with most of your summary but i would only give Wullie a 3/10 he had a shocker and i still cannot understand why he was awarded a 2 year contract unless Ray think's we will be in the Championship for the duration of his stay.He may just be good enough to get us up but in his final year he would take us straight back down,last night he was bullied by a bang average striker.

[ianharab]

Darren no way did we play 2 up top at the start McMullen was played behind McDonald , Stanton was right and King left , we were trying to have that 3 interchangeably , to say 4-4-2 leaves us open is utter *******s , it's a solid two banks of four 4-2-3-1 is a nightmare as we have seen for the past couple of seasons , you need to have guys who switched on for that to work as the two wide of the three have to work as hard back the way as going forward .

No disrespect but you either have never played football or don't get formations

[stokearab]

Darren no way did we play 2 up top at the start McMullen was played behind McDonald , Stanton was right and King left , we were trying to have that 3 interchangeably , to say 4-4-2 leaves us open is utter *******s , it's a solid two banks of four 4-2-3-1 is a nightmare as we have seen for the past couple of seasons , you need to have guys who switched on for that to work as the two wide of the three have to work as hard back the way as going forward .

No disrespect but you either have never played football or don't get formations

exactly this

[ianharab]

How the **** can 4 be outnumbered ?? We got and have been getting overrun there because we insist on that crap formation with two holding players

[darrenshedtastic]

when dundee had the ball in the early stages of the game with their CB's, mcmullan and mcdonald tried to drop back and stop the ball into their DM kamara. if they continued to pass it around the back they would then pick and chose who went to close the CB down. it might not have been and out and out 442 but it certainly looked more like mcmullan was up front alongside mcdonald. even if it was a 4231 it shows that mcmullan as a no.10 doesnt work defensively as they were able to pass the ball through us more when he was there than when we changed it too stanton.

at times if dundee moved the ball around well and kamara was given time that then meant he was a spare man in the midfield. causing a 3v2 centrally for dundee. they had 5 midfielders we had 4 when playing the 442. balls were getting penetrated through our midfield more when we were playing the 4midfield than we did after the change. when we were defending in the 4231 stanton cut off the passing lanes into Mcgowan, el bak or allan better than when mcmullan was in there. their movement was decent and meant they could pop it off around any of our players when we pressed in the midfield.

if there was a tactics board on what it looked like if we played 442 up against their 4231. kamara, mcgowan and el bak v briels and fyvie. (3v2) having two banks of 4 doesnt mean we wont get outnumbered in the midfield.

in terms of leaving us open in a 442 to it doesnt if its done correctly and the wingers come in and narrow the space but if they stay out on the wings when were defending it allows more space for them to play through the central areas which they did. when we changed it i meant we were more of a 451 when defending and cut off the passing lanes much better than we were when we started the game.

agree to disagree about the whether we started with 442 or not but whatever we started with didnt work whether it was the formation or the personal in the formation. we looked better when stanton moved centrally.

please dont come away with comments like your last sentence just because my opinion differs from yours

[huntedbyafreak]

Agree with most of your summary but i would only give Wullie a 3/10 he had a shocker and i still cannot understand why he was awarded a 2 year contract unless Ray think's we will be in the Championship for the duration of his stay.He may just be good enough to get us up but in his final year he would take us straight back down,last night he was bullied by a bang average striker.

100% correct

[stokearab]

when dundee had the ball in the early stages of the game with their CB's, mcmullan and mcdonald tried to drop back and stop the ball into their DM kamara. if they continued to pass it around the back they would then pick and chose who went to close the CB down. it might not have been and out and out 442 but it certainly looked more like mcmullan was up front alongside mcdonald. even if it was a 4231 it shows that mcmullan as a no.10 doesnt work defensively as they were able to pass the ball through us more when he was there than when we changed it too stanton.

at times if dundee moved the ball around well and kamara was given time that then meant he was a spare man in the midfield. causing a 3v2 centrally for dundee. they had 5 midfielders we had 4 when playing the 442. balls were getting penetrated through our midfield more when we were playing the 4midfield than we did after the change. when we were defending in the 4231 stanton cut off the passing lanes into Mcgowan, el bak or allan better than when mcmullan was in there. their movement was decent and meant they could pop it off around any of our players when we pressed in the midfield.

if there was a tactics board on what it looked like if we played 442 up against their 4231. kamara, mcgowan and el bak v briels and fyvie. (3v2) having two banks of 4 doesnt mean we wont get outnumbered in the midfield.

in terms of leaving us open in a 442 to it doesnt if its done correctly and the wingers come in and narrow the space but if they stay out on the wings when were defending it allows more space for them to play through the central areas which they did. when we changed it i meant we were more of a 451 when defending and cut off the passing lanes much better than we were when we started the game.

agree to disagree about the whether we started with 442 or not but whatever we started with didnt work whether it was the formation or the personal in the formation. we looked better when stanton moved centrally.

please dont come away with comments like your last sentence just because my opinion differs from yours

This is not about last night because it was hard to tell from TV what we were playing at any given time, so it's more about the general merits of the two formations.

It's fair to say there's too much put on formations because a highly motivated team playing 4231 will often beat a team playing 442 and vice versa. As I think Gunboat mentioned when this came up last year, Leicester won the EPL playing 442.

4231 as others have mentioned, can be a devastating formation, but it's used most effectively when you have 2 top class full backs that don't need added protection in front of them. You see it in the EPL and other top leagues, but the players are better all round athletes, more skilful, quicker, and generally more intelligent footballers. (Than what we have had the last few seasons) At our level, 4231 is much more easily pulled out of shape than a 442, and crucially 4321 is narrow and allows opposition wide payers to easily get at our fullbacks. This has been a weak point for us for a long time. Four players across the middle, working together, with the back four helping, is a very hard midfield to play through if everyone is doing their job properly. The wide men in the middle 4 need to be able to have the discipline and the engine to attack but also to track back as part of that bank of 4, and I think we have the players to do that now.With 4231 it's much harder to convince the 3 that their first task is to defend, they tend to see their first job as supporting the 1 striker.

As Ian says, the premise of 442 is the two banks of four, and the key to success is that these two banks of four move forward together and move back together. The four playing in front of the back four must have it drilled into them that defence is the first priority and when the opposition pick up the ball to retreat together. This formation is very easy for players of all intellects to understand and play successfully. It also gives the fullbacks added cover, which we badly need.

[stokearab]

Not allowed to edit so just to refer back to Darrens post about their 5 v our 4 in midfield. If a midfield 4 in a 442 is retreating behind the ball when the opposition have it, the scenario becomes their 5 v our 8. A well drilled 8 behind the ball is very hard to break down. I think the point that's coming over is that Ray refuses to play 442, can't or won't drill it into the players because he's to stubborn, but doesn't have the players to play 4231 successfully.

[offshore_arab83]

was never ever a 4-4-2, f ucking no chance with that usless chunt in charge!

[SmedDUm]

Darren no way did we play 2 up top at the start McMullen was played behind McDonald , Stanton was right and King left , we were trying to have that 3 interchangeably , to say 4-4-2 leaves us open is utter *******s , it's a solid two banks of four 4-2-3-1 is a nightmare as we have seen for the past couple of seasons , you need to have guys who switched on for that to work as the two wide of the three have to work as hard back the way as going forward .

No disrespect but you either have never played football or don't get formations

No disrespect to you either ianharab but I played over 1,000 games of football* over 25 years and I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

I've done it before on here but I can give you 'formations' in less than 100 words.

* right enough I wasn't very good :)

[Whitfieldarab]

We can't play 4-4-2 with the players we have, we just don't have the forwards to do it. A Jon Daly type up front is needed for this formation and I doubt we'll get one so we'll just have to put up with it as it's our current managers preference.

FWIW I don't mind what formation RM plays. As long as it works and it gets us out of this league.

[TerryTheTerror]

was never ever a 4-4-2, f ucking no chance with that usless chunt in charge!

You wanted an example of over the top criticism, well here you are.

[An old shed boy]

You might see it as OTT criticism Terry but OA is only saying what other supporters who don't post on here are thinking.
IMO Mackinnon is an imposter of a manager who will continue to play a system that doesn't work.
Just as he did last year.
With the squad we have and the fact we're playing lesser quality teams he might just get away with it this year but for me he's not the long term manager for us.
He is a bigger danger to our chances of winning the league than ICT, Falkirk etc.
This is not a reaction to Wednesday but has been my opinion for a while.

[offshore_arab83]

You wanted an example of over the top criticism, well here you are.

I wanted an example on the other thread, you couldnt give me one cos i said f uck all like that!

[offshore_arab83]

You might see it as OTT criticism Terry but OA is only saying what other supporters who don't post on here are thinking.
IMO Mackinnon is an imposter of a manager who will continue to play a system that doesn't work.
Just as he did last year.
With the squad we have and the fact we're playing lesser quality teams he might just get away with it this year but for me he's not the long term manager for us.
He is a bigger danger to our chances of winning the league than ICT, Falkirk etc.
This is not a reaction to Wednesday but has been my opinion for a while.

Well put!!!

[TerryTheTerror]

I wanted an example on the other thread, you couldnt give me one cos i said f uck all like that!

Does it matter what thread it's on? :?

[TerryTheTerror]

You might see it as OTT criticism Terry but OA is only saying what other supporters who don't post on here are thinking.
IMO Mackinnon is an imposter of a manager who will continue to play a system that doesn't work.
Just as he did last year.
With the squad we have and the fact we're playing lesser quality teams he might just get away with it this year but for me he's not the long term manager for us.
He is a bigger danger to our chances of winning the league than ICT, Falkirk etc.
This is not a reaction to Wednesday but has been my opinion for a while.

I respect you and Offshore's opinion, personally I think it's a minority view. However, it's my opinion that criticism like this (not so much yours but definitely Offshore's) is OTT.

[offshore_arab83]

Does it matter what thread it's on? :?

Yeah defo, you accused me of being over the top on that thread but couldnt give one example of anything i said that was over the top?

[offshore_arab83]

I respect you and Offshore's opinion, personally I think it's a minority view. However, it's my opinion that criticism like this (not so much yours but definitely Offshore's) is OTT.

Pish!

[TerryTheTerror]

Yeah defo, you accused me of being over the top on that thread but couldnt give one example of anything i said that was over the top?

I can't even remember which thread that was but it's the calling Ray a useless chunt that I think is OTT, which I'm sure I've seen before, not just this thread. Could be wrong of course, it has been known.

[stokearab]

We can't play 4-4-2 with the players we have, we just don't have the forwards to do it. A Jon Daly type up front is needed for this formation and I doubt we'll get one so we'll just have to put up with it as it's our current managers preference.

FWIW I don't mind what formation RM plays. As long as it works and it gets us out of this league.

Disagree Whitfield, we definitely have players that could go 442 now, even before we add a striker

McMullan Stanton Fyvie King
N'Koi McDonald

[An old shed boy]

I respect you and Offshore's opinion, personally I think it's a minority view. However, it's my opinion that criticism like this (not so much yours but definitely Offshore's) is OTT.
I accept that it's probably a minority view but the fact that there are supporters that hold it is a concern.
We have the best squad in the division and should be good enough to win it but I have doubts that Ray has the managerial skills to get the best out of the players.
IMO Ray is stubborn in his team selection and tactics.
More importantly I think he lacks the man management and motivational skills to really get the team achieving.
If Ray proves me wrong then it'll be humble pie for me.
Does anybody other than him think only fine margins cost us the game on Wednesday.

[TerryTheTerror]

I've never seen a United team put out by Ray that isn't motivated. Not good enough, yes but unmotivated, never.

[An old shed boy]

Fair enough Terry we can agree to differ.

[TerryTheTerror]

I also think he was making do last season as we had a few players he had to use but didn't sign. This is no longer the case and it's now his team. Make or break now, for sure.

[offshore_arab83]

I can't even remember which thread that was but it's the calling Ray a useless chunt that I think is OTT, which I'm sure I've seen before, not just this thread. Could be wrong of course, it has been known.

http://boards.footymad.net/showthread.php?t=38199063

This thread, 'gotta question'

[offshore_arab83]

Disagree Whitfield, we definitely have players that could go 442 now, even before we add a striker

McMullan Stanton Fyvie King
N'Koi McDonald

agreed, and to add to what stokeys posted you can include Keatings and Fraser

4-4-2 defo an option, be better with a target man but would still work with what we currently have

[Whitfieldarab]

Disagree Whitfield, we definitely have players that could go 442 now, even before we add a striker

McMullan Stanton Fyvie King
N'Koi McDonald

We would win 6-5 or lose 6-5 with that 4 in midfield & 2 up front. Lol.

[Otm_Shank]

You might see it as OTT criticism Terry but OA is only saying what other supporters who don't post on here are thinking.
IMO Mackinnon is an imposter of a manager who will continue to play a system that doesn't work.
Just as he did last year.
With the squad we have and the fact we're playing lesser quality teams he might just get away with it this year but for me he's not the long term manager for us.
He is a bigger danger to our chances of winning the league than ICT, Falkirk etc.
This is not a reaction to Wednesday but has been my opinion for a while.

The squad we have that he built you mean? Jeezo one loss and its panic stations.

[Otm_Shank]

I've never seen a United team put out by Ray that isn't motivated. Not good enough, yes but unmotivated, never.

Agreed, very easy to pull the rhetoric like "not playing for the jersey" etc just because there's a loss. Not always the case, we have no divine bright to win and I did not see lack of effort at all at the derby. It just didn't click

[An old shed boy]

The squad we have that he built you mean? Jeezo one loss and its panic stations.
Try reading the post again.
I said in the last sentence that it wasn't based on Wednesday so no one loss panic stations.
Its hardly panic stations either.
Just my opinion on the manager.

[Otm_Shank]

Try reading the post again.
I said in the last sentence that it wasn't based on Wednesday so no one loss panic stations.
Its hardly panic stations either.
Just my opinion on the manager.

Last part wasn't aimed at you specifically.should have clarified

[An old shed boy]

Ok OTM fair do's.
At this stage of the season we should all be right behind the manager full of enthusiasm and belief.
But not all of us are unfortunately and thats a concern for me.
If Ray gets it's wrong then it's another season in the Championship.
Let's hope I'm wrong.

[offshore_arab83]

Im no seeing any panic stations, far from it :?

[TerryTheTerror]

Im no seeing any panic stations, far from it :?

I agree, some folk have concerns (sir more than others 🙂) but it's hardly panic stations.

[Whitfieldarab]

Partick Thistle have just signed Miles Storey and also taken Connor Sammon on loan. Now that's a good 2 up front pairing. :mad:

[bawbagg]

sammons pish

[offshore_arab83]

Partick Thistle have just signed Miles Storey and also taken Connor Sammon on loan. Now that's a good 2 up front pairing. :mad:

Height and strength, something we severely lack...