O/T North Korea v Japan (and USA)

[keldsyke]

Looks like Kim is pushing things even further...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/28/north-korea-fires-missile-japan-warns-citizens-take-precautions/

[JoePass]

Oh Dear....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/28/north-korea-fires-missile-japan-warns-citizens-take-precautions/


Broken up and fallen into the sea. Time for a bullet through the maniacs head now.

[keldsyke]

I think there will be a trail of programmed / brain washed behind him who are just as hell bent. Still awaiting the groomers visit to North Korea to sort all this out over a cup of tea 🙄

Interesting programme on BBC i player about the murder of his brother at the airport and the North Korean involvement in it, well worth watching.

[andy6025]

Trump is a p*ssy, he'll do nothing but blow hot air.

[jackal2]

Tim Marshall, one of the better analysts on Sky News in my opinion, observes that the missile flew well clear of Japan and was nowhere near Guam. The Japanese didn't feel the need to use their Patriot missile system to intercept it. As such, he thinks this may intentionally stop short of provoking a war, but it's as close to the brink as anyone wants to be (except Kim Jong-Un, apparently).

[sidders]

I think a lot of the anti here is about hairstyles. If Kimmy and Trumpy swapped barbers, wouldn't this be a step in the right direction?

[Iwantmypieback]

Tim Marshall, one of the better analysts on Sky News in my opinion, observes that the missile flew well clear of Japan and was nowhere near Guam. The Japanese didn't feel the need to use their Patriot missile system to intercept it. As such, he thinks this may intentionally stop short of provoking a war, but it's as close to the brink as anyone wants to be (except Kim Jong-Un, apparently).

It flew over Japan. Would suspect they didn't shoot it down as the flight dynamics showed it wouldn't land in Japan and they didn't want to show the capabilities of Patriot or rather potential weaknesses of the system of it failed

[jackal2]

I think a lot of the anti here is about hairstyles. If Kimmy and Trumpy swapped barbers, wouldn't this be a step in the right direction?

You could be right. Perhaps it's the same effect as short man syndrome, but in this case it's all about hair. >:)

[seriouspie]

You could be right. Perhaps it's the same effect as short man syndrome, but in this case it's all about hair. >:)

Big man ....... Big Tool

Little man .... All Tool B)

[andy6025]

South Korea responded today by dropping some bombs on themselves- 8 of them.

That'll show Kim! I bet he dismantles his nuclear missile program now! He'll probably even give himself up to the ICC and allow freedom and democracy into NK.

This is it boys, we've won!

[upthemaggies]

About a week ago North Korea did threaten Britain with "a miserable end" if we agreed to join in with any military drills down there, but I don't think that was reported on any our major news outlets. They do make a lot of threats though.

[i961pie]

South Korea responded today by dropping some bombs on themselves- 8 of them.

That'll show Kim! I bet he dismantles his nuclear missile program now! He'll probably even give himself up to the ICC and allow freedom and democracy into NK.

This is it boys, we've won!

Keep going Andy I'm sure you will get someone to play with you---sh-t I have;D

[JoePass]

Keep going Andy I'm sure you will get someone to play with you---sh-t I have;D


Just nuke em..job done.

[feeb]

Tim Marshall, one of the better analysts on Sky News in my opinion, observes that the missile flew well clear of Japan and was nowhere near Guam. The Japanese didn't feel the need to use their Patriot missile system to intercept it. As such, he thinks this may intentionally stop short of provoking a war, but it's as close to the brink as anyone wants to be (except Kim Jong-Un, apparently).

If you RememberJackal within a month of the start of his rule, he declared that his country was at war with the united states, at the point america would have been quite within their rights to attack him.
but they have showed toleration, and hopefully consider that hes just mouthing off.
however re the' flew well clear of Japan and was nowhere near Guam', i dont know where Guam is but if you draw a line from korea to japan, the next major bit of land you hit, is the USA. could it have been on its way but lacked the fuel?
.

[i961pie]

If you RememberJackal within a month of the start of his rule, he declared that his country was at war with the united states, at the point america would have been quite within their rights to attack him.
but they have showed toleration, and hopefully consider that hes just mouthing off.
however re the' flew well clear of Japan and was nowhere near Guam', i dont know where Guam is but if you draw a line from korea to japan, the next major bit of land you hit, is the USA. could it have been on its way but lacked the fuel?
.

Suicide for N.Korea if it was

[Old_pie]

To me there was a missed opportunity. The minute a missile was spotted heading towards Japanese territory 3 or 4 missile launch sites could have been taken out on the basis that US friendly territory was under threat.

Now the Koreans know that no action will be taken, and not likely to be taken with the next launch which undoubtably will again overfly Japanese territory and towards Guam.

Meanwhile the UN are wringing their hands whilst the role of the Chinese seems a bit duplicitous. It seems that any such launches pass pretty close to Chinese territory.

Kim Kong Un will go on to demonstrate nuclear warhead capability and then simply blackmail the weak west into lifting sanctions etc.

Whilst ever governments don't know how far he will go he's got the upper hand. A strong, non-nuclear, retaliatory strike on the next launch, maybe taking the leader out since he likes to be around to show off, doesn't seem to have too many downsides.

Of course it may be that the western powers can neutralise any of these missiles in mid-stream but don't want to show their hand just yet but I'm doubtful that such reliable countermeasures exist.

Now, what shares do I buy into if WWIII is about to start?

[Old_pie]

Too late to edit: not likely to be any Chinese territory en-route.

[andy6025]

NK tested what appears to be nuclear devices again today. After all of Trump's tough talk and vows that he was the man that would stop all this, he turned around today and said this was a "embarrassment to China."

No, it's not an embarrassment to China, it's an embarrassment to you, you p*ssy. You talk a lot of sh*t but when it comes down to it you've got no balls whatsoever.

[seriouspie]

NK tested what appears to be nuclear devices again today. After all of Trump's tough talk and vows that he was the man that would stop all this, he turned around today and said this was a "embarrassment to China."

No, it's not an embarrassment to China, it's an embarrassment to you, you p*ssy. You talk a lot of sh*t but when it comes down to it you've got no balls whatsoever.

Your written English is a fine example of an annoying irrelevant and insignificant Ignoramus.

[MAD_MAGPIE]

NK tested what appears to be nuclear devices again today. After all of Trump's tough talk and vows that he was the man that would stop all this, he turned around today and said this was a "embarrassment to China."

No, it's not an embarrassment to China, it's an embarrassment to you, you p*ssy. You talk a lot of sh*t but when it comes down to it you've got no balls whatsoever.

What do you honestly expect the US and it's allies to do exactly from a military perspective?
Go and drop bombs on North Korea's weapons facilities to which they then go and vapourise Seoul in retaliation? Great idea that one.

Unfortunatley this has been building for a long time, long before Donald Trump came into office so it's not of his making regardless of people opinions of him.

[andy6025]

I expected Trump to do what he said he was going to do.

Why hasn't he? Was he lying or is he just a p*ssy???

[jackal2]

What do you honestly expect the US and it's allies to do exactly from a military perspective?
Go and drop bombs on North Korea's weapons facilities to which they then go and vapourise Seoul in retaliation? Great idea that one.

Unfortunatley this has been building for a long time, long before Donald Trump came into office so it's not of his making regardless of people opinions of him.

This is all true, but this situation will only continue and escalate until North Korea is met with force. This has reached the stage where any solution is going to have dire consequences. Opportunities to nip this in the bud (with less regional and global impact) many years ago were missed.

There were many opportunities to stop Hitler in the 1930's, before he developed his war machine, but these were missed because the memory of WW1 was fresh and no-one could countenance another conflict. We have to recognise that to individuals like Hitler and Kim Jong-Un, the rational fear of conflict and its consequences is simply a weakness to be exploited.

[sidders]

To me there was a missed opportunity. The minute a missile was spotted heading towards Japanese territory 3 or 4 missile launch sites could have been taken out on the basis that US friendly territory was under threat.

Now the Koreans know that no action will be taken, and not likely to be taken with the next launch which undoubtably will again overfly Japanese territory and towards Guam.

Meanwhile the UN are wringing their hands whilst the role of the Chinese seems a bit duplicitous. It seems that any such launches pass pretty close to Chinese territory.

Kim Kong Un will go on to demonstrate nuclear warhead capability and then simply blackmail the weak west into lifting sanctions etc.

Whilst ever governments don't know how far he will go he's got the upper hand. A strong, non-nuclear, retaliatory strike on the next launch, maybe taking the leader out since he likes to be around to show off, doesn't seem to have too many downsides.

Of course it may be that the western powers can neutralise any of these missiles in mid-stream but don't want to show their hand just yet but I'm doubtful that such reliable countermeasures exist.

Now, what shares do I buy into if WWIII is about to start?

Coffins would seem to be a reliable investment. That is, if there's anyone left around to pay out the dividends.

[sidders]

Politicians are so linear in their thinking. An advanced lateral thinker like Edward de Bono would advise Trump and his western allies that meeting force with force will only result in death and damage.
One alternative is to threaten the Kim Jong Un regime at home. It could also save a shedload of dollars. Why not drop food parcels and dollars by the thousand across North Korea together with messages of friendship and promises of a better life? Use technology to challenge thinking. North Koreans have been brainwashed so it won't be easy but the way to a citizen's heart and mind is through his belly and wallet.

[keldsyke]

Politicians are so linear in their thinking. An advanced lateral thinker like Edward de Bono would advise Trump and his western allies that meeting force with force will only result in death and damage.
One alternative is to threaten the Kim Jong Un regime at home. It could also save a shedload of dollars. Why not drop food parcels and dollars by the thousand across North Korea together with messages of friendship and promises of a better life? Use technology to challenge thinking. North Koreans have been brainwashed so it won't be easy but the way to a citizen's heart and mind is through his belly and wallet.

Amazing.... I'm still waiting for your mate 'The Groomer' to go over for a cup of tea with Kim to sort it all out. Unbelievable, another big reason to not let the idiot in to be PM.

[keldsyke]

Politicians are so linear in their thinking. An advanced lateral thinker like Edward de Bono would advise Trump and his western allies that meeting force with force will only result in death and damage.
One alternative is to threaten the Kim Jong Un regime at home. It could also save a shedload of dollars. Why not drop food parcels and dollars by the thousand across North Korea together with messages of friendship and promises of a better life? Use technology to challenge thinking. North Koreans have been brainwashed so it won't be easy but the way to a citizen's heart and mind is through his belly and wallet.

This must rank as one of the most ridiculous posts ever. Just thought of something else, you honestly believe NK will let planes fly over there dropping food parcels and dollars? It would be the spark for an excuse to fire stuff before they even entered their airspace. Wake up take your sandals off and smell the coffee!!

[andy6025]

It has been easily shown that Trump is all talk and no action. And as a few have pointed out - if he actually did what he said he was going to do then it would be a destructive disaster.

So why does he talk such rubbish?

Because it easily appeals to his small minded right wing base - most of whom can't point out North Korea on a map.

So his tough talk can easily be met with goading - "go on then, do it already!!!"

But he can't and he won't.

There's only one viable solution to the North Korean problem: do nothing.

You can't stop NK from having nuclear weapons, nor developing a means to deliver them, without sacrificing SK, Japan and even possibly a few American cities. Nobody in their right mind (not even Trump) would take that risk. I suppose you could try to assassinate Kim, but that too would be risky and he'd likely be replaced with someone who also recognizes that NKs safest avenue (from their perspective) is to continue to develop their nuclear deterrent.

Flying over their country and dropping things (food, medicine, sympathy cards, etc), would also likely be met with an increase in provocative measures from NK (firing more missiles, increased skirmishes in the DMZ, etc).

That leaves one so-called "threat"... that NK will use their nuclear arsenal to blackmail the world into giving them things. That's also a ridiculous notion - sure they could try, but when the world simply ignores them what are they going to do, commit suicide by vaporizing Los Angeles? If NK was suicidal, then they would have done it long ago.

The only reason the NK leadership would have to wipe any cities off the map is if their own destruction appears imminent.

So why bother them? Let them do their own thing knowing full well that if they attack anyone then it'll be their own death (which they already know). SK, Japan and the US likewise know that if they attack NK it will also be an extremely expensive mistake.

So either lets all commit suicide by attacking them already, or be forced to live and let live. Anything in the middle is just bellyaching and posturing.

[LaxtonLad]

Politicians are so linear in their thinking. An advanced lateral thinker like Edward de Bono would advise Trump and his western allies that meeting force with force will only result in death and damage.
One alternative is to threaten the Kim Jong Un regime at home. It could also save a shedload of dollars. Why not drop food parcels and dollars by the thousand across North Korea together with messages of friendship and promises of a better life? Use technology to challenge thinking. North Koreans have been brainwashed so it won't be easy but the way to a citizen's heart and mind is through his belly and wallet.

Not a bad idea on the face of it sidders, but similar things were done in WW2 to Germany and Japan, and their citizens were so brain-washed by their own governments propaganda that they didn't believe a word on the leaflets. Even worse, to repeat anything they read was punishable by death, as was listening to enemy radio broadcasts. Can you imagine the total isolation from the outside world that the average N. Korean lives in? They are told they have a higher standard of living than The West and they believe it, well why wouldn't they when their television progammes consists of wall-to-wall propaganda telling them it's so?

The defeat of the N. Korean dictatorship, even with minimal loss of life, would only be the start of it, consider the immense task of re-educating the millions of citizens who KNOW with an absolute conviction that The West is hell, inhabited by their worst enemy and MUST be controlled or destroyed by their beloved leader, the infallable Kim Jong-un.

[sidders]

This must rank as one of the most ridiculous posts ever. Just thought of something else, you honestly believe NK will let planes fly over there dropping food parcels and dollars? It would be the spark for an excuse to fire stuff before they even entered their airspace. Wake up take your sandals off and smell the coffee!!

There you go... a linear thinker at work. Ever heard of unmanned rockets? They're all the thing in NK.

[sidders]

Not a bad idea on the face of it sidders, but similar things were done in WW2 to Germany and Japan, and their citizens were so brain-washed by their own governments propaganda that they didn't believe a word on the leaflets. Even worse, to repeat anything they read was punishable by death, as was listening to enemy radio broadcasts. Can you imagine the total isolation from the outside world that the average N. Korean lives in? They are told they have a higher standard of living than The West and they believe it, well why wouldn't they when their television progammes consists of wall-to-wall propaganda telling them it's so?

The defeat of the N. Korean dictatorship, even with minimal loss of life, would only be the start of it, consider the immense task of re-educating the millions of citizens who KNOW with an absolute conviction that The West is hell, inhabited by their worst enemy and MUST be controlled or destroyed by their beloved leader, the infallable Kim Jong-un.

Come on, Laxton. We have invented the internet and all its attendant technologies. Finding a way through 'the wall' is surely not beyond the wit of man.

[LaxtonLad]

Come on, Laxton. We have invented the internet and all its attendant technologies. Finding a way through 'the wall' is surely not beyond the wit of man.

The internet? In North Korea?? Shirley you jest???

This from Wikipedia:

"Internet access in North Korea is restricted to Internet cafés or hotels designated for foreign tourists in Pyongyang, connected via a satellite link. A few of the government elite with state approval are connected to the internet via a link to China.[62] The general population of North Korea do not have internet access, however the people do have access to Kwangmyong, an intranet set up by the government. North Korea itself has a limited presence on the internet, with several sites on their national .kp domain. The Mosquito Net filtering model used in North Korea attempts to attract foreign investment, while the filter simultaneously blocks foreign ideas.[63]

"North Korean media are under some of the strictest government control in the world. Freedom of the press in 2017 was 180th out of 180 countries in Reporters Without Borders' annual Press Freedom Index.[366] According to Freedom House, all media outlets serve as government mouthpieces, all journalists are Party members and listening to foreign broadcasts carries the threat of a death penalty.[367] The main news provider is the Korean Central News Agency. All 12 newspapers and 20 periodicals, including Rodong Sinmun, are published in the capital.[368]

[BigFatPie]

Panic over, Trump has it sorted. His solution is to stop trading with any country "doing business" with North Korea. Good luck with stopping all imports from China, Don.

What a f00king clown. We'll all be obliterated before that arse gets out of the White House.

[sidders]

The internet? In North Korea?? Shirley you jest???

This from Wikipedia:

"Internet access in North Korea is restricted to Internet cafés or hotels designated for foreign tourists in Pyongyang, connected via a satellite link. A few of the government elite with state approval are connected to the internet via a link to China.[62] The general population of North Korea do not have internet access, however the people do have access to Kwangmyong, an intranet set up by the government. North Korea itself has a limited presence on the internet, with several sites on their national .kp domain. The Mosquito Net filtering model used in North Korea attempts to attract foreign investment, while the filter simultaneously blocks foreign ideas.[63]

"North Korean media are under some of the strictest government control in the world. Freedom of the press in 2017 was 180th out of 180 countries in Reporters Without Borders' annual Press Freedom Index.[366] According to Freedom House, all media outlets serve as government mouthpieces, all journalists are Party members and listening to foreign broadcasts carries the threat of a death penalty.[367] The main news provider is the Korean Central News Agency. All 12 newspapers and 20 periodicals, including Rodong Sinmun, are published in the capital.[368]

I suggest you visit 'The Heritage Foundation' site and look under 'getting information into NK'. So far radio and TV signals have been the main approach but there is optimism that the internet offers ways of breaching the governments' firewall.

[JoePass]

Panic over, Trump has it sorted. His solution is to stop trading with any country "doing business" with North Korea. Good luck with stopping all imports from China, Don.

What a f00king clown. We'll all be obliterated before that arse gets out of the White House.


I think you might be surprised.If it was Obama or Corbyn I might agree with you. Trump will sort this lunatic out, sorry if this upsets your agenda.

[LaxtonLad]

I suggest you visit 'The Heritage Foundation' site and look under 'getting information into NK'. So far radio and TV signals have been the main approach but there is optimism that the internet offers ways of breaching the governments' firewall.

Just read it sid. The internet may be the way forward but as the article says, it is the elite and the richest in N. Korea who have access to outside information with two million government-owned computers compared to 100,000 privately owned. You can ignore the 2,000,000 government owned, they won't be used to spread the good news about how great America is, and who knows what percentage of the private ones will toe the party line and which will think for themselves. Faced against such ingrained opposition as mentioned before, the "do-gooder" approach idea you first came up with, like dropping food parcels and dollars and messages of friendship and promises of a better life won't cause many sleepless nights for The Supreme Leader, I suspect it would make Donald Trump squirm with embarrassment though.

BTW, how many food parcels would you need to drop to impress 25,000,000 people enough for them to turn against a system they have been indoctrinated into since birth?

[irishpete]

It's a good job their isn't a Bush at the helm.You would think that it would be in the Chinese interests to sort him one way or another.If the Yanks do bomb NK they will have the fall out from the bombs & civilians fleeing.
The next time they launch a missile the Yanks have to take it down & somewhere near China,even just to show them he has gone one step to far.

[irishpete]

Just read it sid. The internet may be the way forward but as the article says, it is the elite and the richest in N. Korea who have access to outside information with two million government-owned computers compared to 100,000 privately owned. You can ignore the 2,000,000 government owned, they won't be used to spread the good news about how great America is, and who knows what percentage of the private ones will toe the party line and which will think for themselves. Faced against such ingrained opposition as mentioned before, the "do-gooder" approach idea you first came up with, like dropping food parcels and dollars and messages of friendship and promises of a better life won't cause many sleepless nights for The Supreme Leader, I suspect it would make Donald Trump squirm with embarrassment though.

BTW, how many food parcels would you need to drop to impress 25,000,000 people enough for them to turn against a system they have been indoctrinated into since birth?

Drop them money.Most live on the poverty line or below.Just drop the eqiuvilant of a fiver.They will go barmy for it.
The old saying "money talks"

[BigFatPie]

I think you might be surprised.If it was Obama or Corbyn I might agree with you. Trump will sort this lunatic out, sorry if this upsets your agenda.

I don't wish to be unkind Joe, but my dog has fleas whose opinions on foreign affairs I respect more than yours.

[JoePass]

I don't wish to be unkind Joe, but my dog has fleas whose opinions on foreign affairs I respect more than yours.

I bow down to your long established diplomatic experience. By the way, get your dog to scratch. ;D

[sidders]

Just read it sid. The internet may be the way forward but as the article says, it is the elite and the richest in N. Korea who have access to outside information with two million government-owned computers compared to 100,000 privately owned. You can ignore the 2,000,000 government owned, they won't be used to spread the good news about how great America is, and who knows what percentage of the private ones will toe the party line and which will think for themselves. Faced against such ingrained opposition as mentioned before, the "do-gooder" approach idea you first came up with, like dropping food parcels and dollars and messages of friendship and promises of a better life won't cause many sleepless nights for The Supreme Leader, I suspect it would make Donald Trump squirm with embarrassment though.

BTW, how many food parcels would you need to drop to impress 25,000,000 people enough for them to turn against a system they have been indoctrinated into since birth?

I don't pretend that my approach would bring overnight success but I guarantee that a bomb-based approach will bring disaster. The important word here is 'exponential' ; the seeds of revolution have to be sown and nurtured. It will require intelligence, cunning and bravery. Sadly, none of these things are in Trump's armoury.

[drillerpie]

That leaves one so-called "threat"... that NK will use their nuclear arsenal to blackmail the world into giving them things. That's also a ridiculous notion - sure they could try, but when the world simply ignores them what are they going to do, commit suicide by vaporizing Los Angeles?

It's not ridiculous at all, they already use this strategy to great effect. Vaporising LA would indeed be suicide but there's plenty of stuff they can do (and do do) short of that.

After the Iran deal I think it's highly likely they will continue to pursue or maybe expand this strategy.

[andy6025]

It's not ridiculous at all, they already use this strategy to great effect. Vaporising LA would indeed be suicide but there's plenty of stuff they can do (and do do) short of that.

After the Iran deal I think it's highly likely they will continue to pursue or maybe expand this strategy.

How do they use this strategy already... 'Give us x,y,z and we will not develop our nuclear program'?

My post is entirely predicated on the reasonable assumption that NK have and will continue to develop their nuclear and delivery programs. If anyone gifts them anything in exchange for not doing so, then they are suckers. The same applies to Iran, but lets stick to one topic.

[drillerpie]

How do they use this strategy already... 'Give us x,y,z and we will not develop our nuclear program'?

My post is entirely predicated on the reasonable assumption that NK have and will continue to develop their nuclear and delivery programs. If anyone gifts them anything in exchange for not doing so, then they are suckers. The same applies to Iran, but lets stick to one topic.

Depending on which party is in government in South Korea they sometimes start schemes like cross-border infrastructure projects or trade schemes with the North. When these are stopped, or if the North wants a better deal, or if it doesn't have a deal but wants one, NK does something like shell a South Korean island or sink something seaborne belonging to SK and they generally get what they want. Until recently it was one of their few sources of foreign currency.

No reason why they wouldn't extend this strategy now they have more powerful weapons, and as I said especially now there's a precedent with the Iran deal. Hence not ridiculous at all.

[andy6025]

Any incidents such as those that I'm aware of are in regards to border disputes. Do you have any evidence that they are in fact linked to blackmail over trade schemes and the like?

[drillerpie]

Any incidents such as those that I'm aware of are in regards to border disputes. Do you have any evidence that they are in fact linked to blackmail over trade schemes and the like?

Here we go.

Do you have any evidence that they were really related to border disputes?

[andy6025]

You go first, since I asked first. But even if you can back that up with evidence, which I have my doubts, then capitulating to their demands is rather foolish. It's akin to giving in to a toddler's demands and teaching it that the strategy works.

But what are you ultimately suggesting here, that NK will use nuclear weapons and commit suicide if SK, Japan or the US don't capitulate to their trade demands?

And what solution are you suggesting other than simply ignoring them - a military solution? I get the impression that you're just begging to disagree.

I don't often agree with Steve Bannon, but he nailed it here (and this is just in regards to conventional weapons:

"Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us"

[JoePass]

You go first, since I asked first. But even if you can back that up with evidence, which I have my doubts, then capitulating to their demands is rather foolish. It's akin to giving in to a toddler's demands and teaching it that the strategy works.

But what are you ultimately suggesting here, that NK will use nuclear weapons and commit suicide if SK, Japan or the US don't capitulate to their trade demands?

And what solution are you suggesting other than simply ignoring them - a military solution? I get the impression that you're just begging to disagree.

I don't often agree with Steve Bannon, but he nailed it here (and this is just in regards to conventional weapons:

"Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us"


Just stop all this garbage and nuke em.

[drillerpie]

You go first, since I asked first. But even if you can back that up with evidence, which I have my doubts, then capitulating to their demands is rather foolish. It's akin to giving in to a toddler's demands and teaching it that the strategy works.

But what are you ultimately suggesting here, that NK will use nuclear weapons and commit suicide if SK, Japan or the US don't capitulate to their trade demands?

And what solution are you suggesting other than simply ignoring them - a military solution? I get the impression that you're just begging to disagree.

I don't often agree with Steve Bannon, but he nailed it here (and this is just in regards to conventional weapons:

"Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us"

Ahah.

I clearly said that nuking another country would indeed be suicide and that there are plenty of ways to make a nuisance of themselves. They are pretty good at brinkmanship and have less to lose than the countries around them.

The thing that you have said is ridiculous and doesn't happen will happen, there will be talks, they will get their money, as usual.

[andy6025]

Repeating it doesn't make it true, but whatever, the point is that they'll do nothing because there's nothing they can do.

[andy6025]

...and sure, as I said if NK wants to push threats then let them... the world can just ignore them. If they chose not to ignore NK and give in instead then that's their problem. As I said, they'd be suckers.

[drillerpie]

Repeating it doesn't make it true, but whatever, the point is that they'll do nothing because there's nothing they can do.

We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

[drillerpie]

...and sure, as I said if NK wants to push threats then let them... the world can just ignore them. If they chose not to ignore NK and give in instead then that's their problem. As I said, they'd be suckers.

I think you're vastly underestimating their potential for mischief making but as I said, we'll have to wait and see.

[andy6025]

I think you're vastly underestimating their potential for mischief making but as I said, we'll have to wait and see.

Mischief is only worth making if it gets the desired results. It can only get the desired results if one allows it to.

If you can show me a different logic then I'm all ears.

[drillerpie]

Mischief is only worth making if it gets the desired results. It can only get the desired results if one allows it to.

If you can show me a different logic then I'm all ears.

Yes but obviously that only works if the mischief is tolerable, and as I keep saying there are lots of things NK can do, short of launching nuclear missiles, that the various parties might not be willing to tolerate.

[andy6025]

We're talking about NK developing their nuclear weapon and delivery capabilities and using it to blackmail the world, ie., give us x,y,z or we'll vaporize such and such places. I'm not sure what you're talking about but it appears to be some sort of different side topic.

If you have some sort of hypothesis you want to put forward, and include cases in the past to back it up, such as them making threats regarding certain projects or trade agreements not going their way, following through on the threats then receiving favourable treatment, and then show how this somehow fits in with their nuclear development, then by all means do so. But so far I've seen you put forward nothing that contradicts my assertions but some ramblings about "mischief." Make yourself clear and I'll happily be your audience.

[sidders]

Mischief is only worth making if it gets the desired results. It can only get the desired results if one allows it to.

If you can show me a different logic then I'm all ears.

You read Driller's posts with your ears? Some circus trick that, Andy.

[jonnyt1]

How about the US carries out steath surgical strikes that eliminate the leadership, nuclear facilities and missile sites then immediately issue an ultimatum to engage with the South and USA or face a nuke on their capital city within minutes.

If they attack the South then nuke them immediately and follow up with conventional strikes on all Military hardware

[drillerpie]

We're talking about NK developing their nuclear weapon and delivery capabilities and using it to blackmail the world, ie., give us x,y,z or we'll vaporize such and such places. I'm not sure what you're talking about but it appears to be some sort of different side topic.

If you have some sort of hypothesis you want to put forward, and include cases in the past to back it up, such as them making threats regarding certain projects or trade agreements not going their way, following through on the threats then receiving favourable treatment, and then show how this somehow fits in with their nuclear development, then by all means do so. But so far I've seen you put forward nothing that contradicts my assertions but some ramblings about "mischief." Make yourself clear and I'll happily be your audience.

No thanks, we'll just have to wait and see what happens won't we?

[andy6025]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Wait all you like. But I've already seen this film before. It's a 'talkie' and it's really really long.

[i961pie]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Wait all you like. But I've already seen this film before. It's a 'talkie' and it's really really long.

Well for once I hope you are right because the alternative is not worth thinking about.
But you keep calling Trump a ***** yet he seems as unstable as the nut case in NK.

[sidders]

How about the US carries out steath surgical strikes that eliminate the leadership, nuclear facilities and missile sites then immediately issue an ultimatum to engage with the South and USA or face a nuke on their capital city within minutes.

If they attack the South then nuke them immediately and follow up with conventional strikes on all Military hardware

Stick to talking balls about football, Johnny

[dam617]

Mischief is only worth making if it gets the desired results. It can only get the desired results if one allows it to.

If you can show me a different logic then I'm all ears.

It's quite obvious that what the world needs is a sequel to 'Team America-World Police'.

"Roneree, I'm so ronereeeeeeeee".

[tarquinbeech]

The black art of the wheeler-dealer.

How do you use the office of President to maximise financial gains for yourself and your mega-rich friends?

Step 1 -
recognise that the military-industrial complex depends heavily on the fossil fuel aka petrochemical industries.

Step 2 -
make threats to N. Korea to encourage them to engage in even more sabre-rattling.

Step 3 -
sign military megadeals with the non-nuclear countries which feel threatened by N.Korea.

Step 4 -
get re-elected for having greatly boosted the earnings of the military-industrial complex, creating wealth and jobs and thus "making America great again".

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

I am allowing Japan & South Korea to buy a substantially increased amount of highly sophisticated military equipment from the United States.
5:36 AM - 5 Sep 2017

[tarquinbeech]

The Washington Post reported that South Koreans are still coming to terms with how “different” this American leader really is.

“They think they’re dealing with an unreasonable partner and complaining about it isn’t going to help – in fact, it might make it worse,” said David Straub, a former State Department official who dealt with both Koreas and recently published a book about anti-Americanism in South Korea.

“Opinion polls show South Koreans have one of the lowest rates of regard for Trump in the world and they don’t consider him to be a reasonable person,” Straub said. “In fact, they worry he’s kind of nuts, but they still want the alliance.”

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/crisis-brews-some-south-korea-fear-trump-kind-nuts

[drillerpie]

The black art of the wheeler-dealer.

How do you use the office of President to maximise financial gains for yourself and your mega-rich friends?

Step 1 -
recognise that the military-industrial complex depends heavily on the fossil fuel aka petrochemical industries.

Step 2 -
make threats to N. Korea to encourage them to engage in even more sabre-rattling.

Step 3 -
sign military megadeals with the non-nuclear countries which feel threatened by N.Korea.

Step 4 -
get re-elected for having greatly boosted the earnings of the military-industrial complex, creating wealth and jobs and thus "making America great again".

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

I am allowing Japan & South Korea to buy a substantially increased amount of highly sophisticated military equipment from the United States.
5:36 AM - 5 Sep 2017

Bingo. He's done exactly the same re Saudi and Iran.

[andy6025]

It doesn't often happen, but all 3 of us are agreed.

[drillerpie]

Angela Merkel speaking about the Iran deal is quoted as saying:

“I could imagine such a format being used to end the North Korea conflict.*Europe*and especially Germany should be prepared to play a very active part in that,”

Russia and China also calling for talks involving concessions from both sides (US reducing its presence in SK in exchange for NK stopping doing mental ****).

Merkel, Putin and Xi Jinping all expected to revise their opinions once they've been told by Andy that their opinions are ridiculous.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/10/merkel-backs-iran-style-diplomatic-solution-for-north-korea

[andy6025]

Angela Merkel speaking about the Iran deal is quoted as saying:

“I could imagine such a format being used to end the North Korea conflict.*Europe*and especially Germany should be prepared to play a very active part in that,”

Russia and China also calling for talks involving concessions from both sides (US reducing its presence in SK in exchange for NK stopping doing mental ****).

Merkel, Putin and Xi Jinping all expected to revise their opinions once they've been told by Andy that their opinions are ridiculous.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/10/merkel-backs-iran-style-diplomatic-solution-for-north-korea

Do you mean the deal with Iran that Trump is trying to undo? Sure, I suppose it doesn't hurt to propose it.

[drillerpie]

Do you mean the deal with Iran that Trump is trying to undo? Sure, I suppose it doesn't hurt to propose it.

But you wouldn't propose something that is ridiculous surely?

[tarquinbeech]

But you wouldn't propose something that is ridiculous surely?

Segueing slightly......petrochemicals got a shock yesterday when China announced that they aim to do away with petrol and diesel cars "within the near future"....incredible news.

China is the fastest growing World Economy, and if they switch totally to EVs and hybrids within say 15 years, petrol/oil is doomed.....at last

Now we need India to do the same, UK and France have already decided so the EU will almost certainly follow....the USA is getting backed into a corner.

[drillerpie]

Segueing slightly......petrochemicals got a shock yesterday when China announced that they aim to do away with petrol and diesel cars "within the near future"....incredible news.

China is the fastest growing World Economy, and if they switch totally to EVs and hybrids within say 15 years, petrol/oil is doomed.....at last

Now we need India to do the same, UK and France have already decided so the EU will almost certainly follow....the USA is getting backed into a corner.

Yep, undoubtedly good news. Sooner or later the technology will make so much economic sense that it will be unavoidable.

Was it the Shah of Iran who said it made no sense to burn all the oil, seeing as there's a finite amount of it and it's useful for other stuff like plastic. Not that leaving it floating around and breaking down in the sea is doing us much good of course.

[andy6025]

But you wouldn't propose something that is ridiculous surely?

I didn't propose it.

[drillerpie]

I didn't propose it.

True, somebody with years of experience in top level diplomacy and a PhD in physical chemistry did. You said it was ridiculous.

[andy6025]

True, somebody with years of experience in top level diplomacy and a PhD in physical chemistry did. You said it was ridiculous.

I said it would be ridiculous for NK to blackmail the world by threatening to vaporize a city with nukes if their demands aren't met, using LA as an example. I said of course they could try and push threats like that but the world would be dumb to kowtow rather than just ignore them.

Are you saying that NK is going to nuke somewhere if Merkel doesn't offer them an Iranian style deal?

[drillerpie]

I said it would be ridiculous for NK to blackmail the world by threatening to vaporize a city with nukes if their demands aren't met, using LA as an example. I said of course they could try and push threats like that but the world would be dumb to kowtow rather than just ignore them.

Are you saying that NK is going to nuke somewhere if Merkel doesn't offer them an Iranian style deal?

I've said three or four times now that NK doesn't have to nuke anyone to extract concessions, there's plenty they can do short of that.

What you described as ridiculous was, and I quote: that NK will use their nuclear arsenal to blackmail the world into giving them things.

It isn't ridiculous at all, is it?

[andy6025]

So why give them anything if we both agree that NK isn't going to nuke anywhere? And now you're back on about them doing things short of nukes... sure, but they could do whatever you're imagining like that before they had nukes.

If Merkel wants to be first in line to give gifts to the NKs then she can be my guest.

I've maintained all along that by far the most simple thing to do is ignore NK. Let them have their nukes if they want them that badly. Unless anyone thinks they're really going to use them then there's nothing to worry about that you didn't worry about before they had them.

[MancMagpie]

Just nuke em..job done.

It'a because of people like you that this world is in a mess. "Just nuke em" never solves anything you brainless twonk.

[drillerpie]

So why give them anything if we both agree that NK isn't going to nuke anywhere? And now you're back on about them doing things short of nukes... sure, but they could do whatever you're imagining like that before they had nukes.

If Merkel wants to be first in line to give gifts to the NKs then she can be my guest.

I've maintained all along that by far the most simple thing to do is ignore NK. Let them have their nukes if they want them that badly. Unless anyone thinks they're really going to use them then there's nothing to worry about that you didn't worry about before they had them.

Again a correction : we didn't agree that they won't use their nukes, we agreed it would be suicide to use them, that's not the same.

Bombing Pearl Harbour was suicide for Japan, but they did it, didn't they?

For what it's worth I don't think they will use their nukes, but that's not how one assesses risk is it? The stakes are too high if the assessment is mistaken.

Have you wondered why none of the world leaders, all from different political persuasions and backgrounds - Trump, Merkel, May, Macron, Putin, Xi Jinping, Abe - with all the experience and access to intelligence that they have, are advocating doing nothing, and considered that maybe it's your plan that is ridiculous?

[Iwantmypieback]

It'a because of people like you that this world is in a mess. "Just nuke em" never solves anything you brainless twonk.

The only time they've been used it saved over 500,000 lives and made sure Japan didn't change their minds about surrender so actually it did solve something

[JoePass]

It'a because of people like you that this world is in a mess. "Just nuke em" never solves anything you brainless twonk.


It's my opinion and my theory. And your solution is ?

Over to you twink, oh sorry, twonk.

[andy6025]

Again a correction : we didn't agree that they won't use their nukes, we agreed it would be suicide to use them, that's not the same.

Bombing Pearl Harbour was suicide for Japan, but they did it, didn't they?

For what it's worth I don't think they will use their nukes, but that's not how one assesses risk is it? The stakes are too high if the assessment is mistaken.

Have you wondered why none of the world leaders, all from different political persuasions and backgrounds - Trump, Merkel, May, Macron, Putin, Xi Jinping, Abe - with all the experience and access to intelligence that they have, are advocating doing nothing, and considered that maybe it's your plan that is ridiculous?

Because they all want, to one degree or another, to be seen as appeasing the US. And the US is gung ho about the 'NK problem' for multiple reasons: it was a point Trump drummed on about in the campaign and therefore he's painted himself into a corner, it makes him look tough to his base, it's good for the weapons business, it's a distraction, etc., etc.

If you have another way to assess risk, then by all means explain it.

[drillerpie]

Because they all want, to one degree or another, to be seen as appeasing the US. And the US is gung ho about the 'NK problem' for multiple reasons: it was a point Trump drummed on about in the campaign and therefore he's painted himself into a corner, it makes him look tough to his base, it's good for the weapons business, it's a distraction, etc., etc.

If you have another way to assess risk, then by all means explain it.

Agree about Trump, disagree about Putin and co trying to appease the US.

Again you're asking for my way of assessing risk without elaborating on yours. Yours seems to be that if you don't think something will happen you can ignore it, which is bizarre.

[andy6025]

My method of risk assessment is to analyse motivational factors that would conclude positively for a nuclear strike.

Under what scenario do you think NK would find it a good idea to nuke Seoul or Tokyo, or LA, etc., and by doing so, as you've agreed, commit suicide in the process?

My assessment is that they wouldn't do it just because the world doesn't give in to demands for food, or oil, or money, or anything of the sort.

Would they do it because Dennis Rodman doesn't want to be friends with Kim anymore? No. Would they do it because it's a Wednesday? No.

They would probably only do it if they felt that their own death and destruction is imminent. Short of that, I can't think of any situation worth worrying about. Perhaps you can?

Now lets look at the other side: under what situation would the US find it a good idea to risk tens of millions of deaths, including those occupying one or more major American cities, in order to wipe out the North Korean leadership?

I can't think of any there either.

The only thing I can think of that is worth worrying about are accidents - computer chip malfunctions and the like (that have happened before), that leads to either the false perception that an attack is already underway and thus retaliatory strikes are a good idea (see above), or that unintentionally launch a strike (in which case nobody thought in was a good idea - see above again).

This is nothing new - we've been here before during the cold war. And the rhetoric, false alarms, war by proxy, etc., were a lot more intense then than they are now. And what came of it? Nothing but a lot of wasted resources that could have better been spent on socially useful measures. We're still paying for the MADness.

So by far the most logical course of action would be to ignore the NKs, unless of course we have alterior motives, such as selling weapons, etc.

[drillerpie]

My method of risk assessment is to analyse motivational factors that would conclude positively for a nuclear strike.

Under what scenario do you think NK would find it a good idea to nuke Seoul or Tokyo, or LA, etc., and by doing so, as you've agreed, commit suicide in the process?

My assessment is that they wouldn't do it just because the world doesn't give in to demands for food, or oil, or money, or anything of the sort.

Would they do it because Dennis Rodman doesn't want to be friends with Kim anymore? No. Would they do it because it's a Wednesday? No.

They would probably only do it if they felt that their own death and destruction is imminent. Short of that, I can't think of any situation worth worrying about. Perhaps you can?

Now lets look at the other side: under what situation would the US find it a good idea to risk tens of millions of deaths, including those occupying one or more major American cities, in order to wipe out the North Korean leadership?

I can't think of any there either.

The only thing I can think of that is worth worrying about are accidents - computer chip malfunctions and the like (that have happened before), that leads to either the false perception that an attack is already underway and thus retaliatory strikes are a good idea (see above), or that unintentionally launch a strike (in which case nobody thought in was a good idea - see above again).

This is nothing new - we've been here before during the cold war. And the rhetoric, false alarms, war by proxy, etc., were a lot more intense then than they are now. And what came of it? Nothing but a lot of wasted resources that could have better been spent on socially useful measures. We're still paying for the MADness.

So by far the most logical course of action would be to ignore the NKs, unless of course we have alterior motives, such as selling weapons, etc.

Good post, but I'd still point out a couple of things. The selling of weapons applies to the US but not to the other countries involved.

NK attacking anyone with nukes would be stupid, but as I said in my last post you can't rule out people doing stupid things. People talk about Trump having his finger on the button being dangerous but in reality he has advisors to keep him in check. NK doesn't have that. If Kim for whatever reason decides to press the button who's going to ask him if he's sure? Who's going to disobey the order?

Then there's the question of risk. You don't judge it exclusively whether you think something is likely or not, you factor in the impact of what could happen as well.

If I have to drive 50 yards down the road at 10 mph I don't think I'm going to crash, but if I do crash I know the worst I'll get is a couple of bruises, so I leave my seat belt off.

If I have to drive on a busy motorway I still don't get in my car thinking a crash is going to happen, but I factor in the impact of what might happen ie serious injury or death, so I put my belt on.

It's the same reason I pay house insurance despite pretty very confident nothing will happen to it. Where I live there's no flooding, we don't have tornadoes, there's really not much can happen to my house but I pay every year because I know that the impact would be catastrophic, as I don't have enough cash to just buy another house.

That's what you're missing here. Countries don't defend themselves on the basis of "nah, it'll be fine". They take all available precautions to mitigate the risk.

Imagine waking up tomorrow with a mushroom cloud over Tokyo, what's their leader going to do? Say sorry, say he didn't think it would happen and sack his advisors?

[andy6025]

I don't like to tell you that you wasted a lot of time on that post, but of course I take into account impact in risk assessment - the word 'risk' is meaningless without factoring for possible impact.

If Kim is as crazy as you make out then all the more reason to leave him alone.

[drillerpie]

I don't like to tell you that you wasted a lot of time on that post, but of course I take into account impact in risk assessment - the word 'risk' is meaningless without factoring for possible impact.

If Kim is as crazy as you make out then all the more reason to leave him alone.

No it's fine, thanks for telling me. I learn so much from you ❤

[tarquinbeech]

That ended badly!

[drillerpie]

Interesting footnote to this article in today's paper:

"In another gesture apparently aimed at lowering the diplomatic temperature, South Korea’s government is considering an $8m (£6m) aid package for North Korea."

What? NK starts lobbing bombs around and ends up getting free money? Who could possibly have predicted this?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/14/north-korea-threat-sink-japan-us-ashes-darkness

[andy6025]

http://i66.tinypic.com/ne7w5x.jpg

You're right, it's not ridiculous at all!

[sidders]

Interesting footnote to this article in today's paper:

"In another gesture apparently aimed at lowering the diplomatic temperature, South Korea’s government is considering an $8m (£6m) aid package for North Korea."

What? NK starts lobbing bombs around and ends up getting free money? Who could possibly have predicted this?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/14/north-korea-threat-sink-japan-us-ashes-darkness

They read my post on here advising the yanks to drop money and food parcels. "That Sid-er-ney speaks good sense. If the Trump fools don't listen, we will."

[tarquinbeech]

The guy with the weird haircut ain't giving in......he launched another rocket tonight

I've almost finished the bunker.....stocking it with food tomorrow.....plus the beers obviously

[sidders]

The guy with the weird haircut ain't giving in......he launched another rocket tonight

I've almost finished the bunker.....stocking it with food tomorrow.....plus the beers obviously

Go suck on a cactus, Beechy. Meanwhile Trump is living up to his name and a wet one at that.

[Old_pie]

http://i66.tinypic.com/ne7w5x.jpg

You're right, it's not ridiculous at all!


Read my post #16 of 30/8 (and the #17 correction too). The longer it goes on the worst it will get. He's going to punish the west for what he sees as past mistakes.

[i961pie]

If Kim is as crazy as you make out then all the more reason to leave him alone.

How far does he have to go in your eyes before you stop leaving him alone?

[andy6025]

Oldpie seems to advocate using the next NK missile test as a moment of surprise to attack NK, taking out a few of their missile sites. Am I interpreting your post correctly, old_pie?

1961, what's your proposal?

[tarquinbeech]

How far does he have to go in your eyes before you stop leaving him alone?

I agree, as far as I see it, there are only 4 viable options....leaving the guy alone is NOT one of them

1. Drone strike or sniper team.....make sure you don't kill a "double" instead
2. Internal coup
3. Massive international sanctions if we get China onside....only foodstuffs, medicine and heating oil allowed in
4. Shoot down every rocket launch immediately it's spotted (not sure this is even possible)

[dam617]

I agree, as far as I see it, there are only 4 viable options....leaving the guy alone is NOT one of them

1. Drone strike or sniper team.....make sure you don't kill a "double" instead
2. Internal coup
3. Massive international sanctions if we get China onside....only foodstuffs, medicine and heating oil allowed in
4. Shoot down every rocket launch immediately it's spotted (not sure this is even possible)

Regarding point 4 - there's an interesting article in the latest Private Eye. Skim reading through it last night, hidden amongst the Remoaning articles is a piece on the spate of collisions at sea involving US warships.
It is suggested that someone (China?) could be hacking into GPS systems and sending false location information.
If this is cyber technology is actually available it's possible that a future launch by Fat Man coud end up boomeranging on him.

[tarquinbeech]

Regarding point 4 - there's an interesting article in the latest Private Eye. Skim reading through it last night, hidden amongst the Remoaning articles is a piece on the spate of collisions at sea involving US warships.
It is suggested that someone (China?) could be hacking into GPS systems and sending false location information.
If this is cyber technology is actually available it's possible that a future launch by Fat Man coud end up boomeranging on him.

Interesting idea - unfortunately it's more likely that "tinkering" with the launch/GPS settings might result in a rocket falling onto South Korea or Japan.

In the old days, the CIA's favourite method was for South American leaders to "accidentally" die in a plane crash.....I'm not sure that The Crazy One is likely to board a plane anytime soon though.

[i961pie]

Oldpie seems to advocate using the next NK missile test as a moment of surprise to attack NK, taking out a few of their missile sites. Am I interpreting your post correctly, old_pie?

1961, what's your proposal?

Why do you answer a question with a question?

[andy6025]

You wanted to know how far things have to fo before I stop leaving them alone.

So I'm seeking clarification on your question... stop leaving them alone and do what exactly?

[Old_pie]

Oldpie seems to advocate using the next NK missile test as a moment of surprise to attack NK, taking out a few of their missile sites. Am I interpreting your post correctly, old_pie?

Any missile test that's going over Japan, or towards Guam or any other western friendly country - yes. How does Japan know it's not a real attack? It has to be treated as one otherwise when the real attack comes everyone will be crying wolf, "oh we thought it was just another test".

NK just now know what you've been saying, ***** *****.

Who's really backing NK? Wouldn't surprise me that both Russia and China are, for varying reasons, providing clandestine support.

[i961pie]

You wanted to know how far things have to fo before I stop leaving them alone.

So I'm seeking clarification on your question... stop leaving them alone and do what exactly?

You are the one saying leave NK alone, do you still ignore them if they nuke Guam or Japan? The question is straight forward no matter how you try to twist it or avoid answering it

[JoePass]

You are the one saying leave NK alone, do you still ignore them if they nuke Guam or Japan? The question is straight forward no matter how you try to twist it or avoid answering it


He will be ironing his white flag as we speak.

[tarquinbeech]

Andy - I don't see how "leaving him alone" is helping....he's getting bolder BECAUSE we've left him alone, surely you see that?

If your next-door neighbour threatens you EVERY day when you leave for University, do you ignore him ......or take action.

I might ignore him for a while, but once he starts lobbing fireworks at me, I'll get a few buddies and give him a good kicking.....or worse.

[andy6025]

Oldpie, as I mentioned before, I tend to agree with Steve Bannon in this instance when he said:

"Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us"

Nor do I think it at all plausible, as I also mentioned before, that NK would spontaneously nuke Japan, South Korea, or anywhere else - I just don't see any scenario where they'd want to spontaneously commit suice by doing so.

Tarkers, your courses of action:

1) drone strike, assassination attempt and "make sure" you get him and not a double:

There is a huge risk that any attempts along these lines would result in the scenario Steve Bannon describes above. You might advocate such type of action, but I'd think it would be insane. Also, can you elaborate on how you'd "make sure" you got him and not a double?

2). Internal coup.

This amounts to letting the NKs sorting out the "problem" themselves and by and large doing nothing until they accomplish it. As I said, 'doing nothing' is the best course of action, and if you want to rephrase it as 'wait for an internal coup' then I'm ok with that.

3) crippling sanctions.

I doubt there is enough will among the international community (China and Russia, for starters) to undertake this action. As Putin said, and I agree with him, 'NK would rather eat grass than give up their nuclear program.' On the flip side, it's been a viable theory that increased trade and dependecy among states is a better deterrent of war. However, I readily accept that there probably isn't a lot of will within the international community (the US for starters) to normalize trade relations with NK.

4) Shoot down NK test missiles.

Sure, you can try, and as you said, it may not even be possible. I doubt the US wants to tip their hand and reveal an imperfect system if that's the case, but if trying convinces the hawks that 'something is being done' ti their satisfaction then I have no major objection. I doubt it would have any de-escaltion effect, nor does it stop them from developing their weapons and delivery programs, but yeah... go for it if you really want to.

So once again, other than a few relatively meaningless gestures, I see no viable option but to simply ignore them. Maybe they'll pack it all in for 8 million dollars though - just make sure you follow their instructions for the drop off point and 'unmarked bills' accurately... or else!!!

1961 might come up with a good plan though?

[tarquinbeech]

Oldpie, as I mentioned before, I tend to agree with Steve Bannon in this instance when he said:

"Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us"

Nor do I think it at all plausible, as I also mentioned before, that NK would spontaneously nuke Japan, South Korea, or anywhere else - I just don't see any scenario where they'd want to spontaneously commit suice by doing so.

Tarkers, your courses of action:

1) drone strike, assassination attempt and "make sure" you get him and not a double:

There is a huge risk that any attempts along these lines would result in the scenario Steve Bannon describes above. You might advocate such type of action, but I'd think it would be insane. Also, can you elaborate on how you'd "make sure" you got him and not a double?

2). Internal coup.

This amounts to letting the NKs sorting out the "problem" themselves and by and large doing nothing until they accomplish it. As I said, 'doing nothing' is the best course of action, and if you want to rephrase it as 'wait for an internal coup' then I'm ok with that.

3) crippling sanctions.

I doubt there is enough will among the international community (China and Russia, for starters) to undertake this action. As Putin said, and I agree with him, 'NK would rather eat grass than give up their nuclear program.' On the flip side, it's been a viable theory that increased trade and dependecy among states is a better deterrent of war. However, I readily accept that there probably isn't a lit of will within the international community (the US for starters) to normalize trade relations with NK.

4) Shoot down NK test missiles.

Sure, you can try, and as you said, it may not even be possible. I doubt the US wants to tip their hand and reveal an imperfect system if that's the case, but if trying convinces the hawks that 'something is being done' ti their satisfaction then I have no major objection. I doubt it would have any de-escaltion effect, nor does it stop them from developing their weapons and delivery programs, but yeah... go for it if you really want to.

So once again, other than a few relatively meaningless gestures, I see no viable option but to simply ignore them. Maybe they'll pack it all in for 8 million dollars though - just make sure you follow their instructions for the drop off point and 'unmarked bills' accurately... or else!!!

1961 might come up with a good plan though?

You're spotting the flaws in my four options, which I had already agreed were there....none of them are fool-proof........HOWEVER your option of "leave him alone to develop his weapons and fire them at his neighbours" is actually Option Five, and almost guaranteed to be the worst one.

I'm not advocating all-out war....the West is still dealing with the fall-out from the Iraq fiasco, 15 years after Bush/Blair started it....but something has to be done, and quickly

ps by "internal coup", I meant find a viable alternative leader and guarantee the support of the West, if an accident should happen to Mr Crazy whilst he's inspecting his next rocket.....a General in his Army?

[andy6025]

Why is option 5 the worst one... what are likely to be the consequences that you fear from it?

[tarquinbeech]

Why is option 5 the worst one... what are likely to be the consequences that you fear from it?

I'm not sure if you're winding me up Andy.....he's firing rockets at his neighbours, letting them know that he is getting stronger

Now of course, he could be bluffing.....are you willing to take that risk?......if he was firing them over Canada, would you're views change?

Let me put it another way....why isn't he firing them North over China or Russia?......because his buddies would find a way to give him a slap

[andy6025]

You are the one saying leave NK alone, do you still ignore them if they nuke Guam or Japan? The question is straight forward no matter how you try to twist it or avoid answering it

Sure, if NK nukes Japan or Guam then go ahead and nuke them...

But under what scenario do you think that NK would decide that it's a good idea to commit suicide by spontaneously nuking Guam? And what, specifically, are you advocating be done instead of 'doing nothing'?

[andy6025]

he's firing rockets at his neighbours, letting them know that he is getting stronger

Now of course, he could be bluffing.....are you willing to take that risk?......if he was firing them over Canada, would you're views change?

Let me put it another way....why isn't he firing them North over China or Russia?......because his buddies would find a way to give him a slap

Correction: He's firing them over his neighbors, not at them.

Am I willing to take the risk that he's bluffing?

'Take the risk' as opposed to doing what... attacking North Korea? Yes.

Would my views change if he fired them over Canada? No - there'd still be no viable alternative.

If you can suggest a course of action that can disarm NK without risking tens of millions of lives, then I'd be excited to hear it. Until then, doing nothing is still best.

[tarquinbeech]

Correction: He's firing them over his neighbors, not at them.

Am I willing to take the risk that he's bluffing?

'Take the risk' as opposed to doing what... attacking North Korea? Yes.

Would my views change if he fired them over Canada? No - there'd still be no viable alternative.

If you can suggest a course of action that can disarm NK without risking tens of millions of lives, then I'd be excited to hear it. Until then, doing nothing is still best.

So basically you're a Pacifist that believes that no action should be taken until your country is attacked....by which time thousands, possibly millions of your own countrymen are dead?

I'm not sure that has ever worked in history.....I guess we will have to wait and see

[crazyfists]

Nothing of real note will happen before this is all resolved anyway, self important men swinging their d!cks about but none of them will commit to anything of real significance as it would be the beginning of the end for all countries involved.

[andy6025]

So basically you're a Pacifist that believes that no action should be taken until your country is attacked....by which time thousands, possibly millions of your own countrymen are dead?

I'm not sure that has ever worked in history.....I guess we will have to wait and see

What action are you talking about that can be taken? Your option #1: risk tens of millions of people for a chance at taking out KJU?

In that case Donald Trump is a pacifist in your books as well then since he hasn't done it?

Or perhas you'd simply be satisfied if I talked really tough but actually advocated doing nothing. Sure, I can play along with that if you like:

Mark my words, there will be fire and fury the likes the world has ever seen if KJU ever attacks anyone!!! He's gone too far. We will not tolerate this. Damn it we will defend ourselves!!!

There, do you like that better?

[keldsyke]

Nothing of real note will happen before this is all resolved anyway, self important men swinging their d!cks about but none of them will commit to anything of real significance as it would be the beginning of the end for all involved.

Thought you were talking about some on this forum!! 😂😂

[i961pie]

Oldpie, as I mentioned before, I tend to agree with Steve Bannon in this instance when he said:

"Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us"

Nor do I think it at all plausible, as I also mentioned before, that NK would spontaneously nuke Japan, South Korea, or anywhere else - I just don't see any scenario where they'd want to spontaneously commit suice by doing so.

Tarkers, your courses of action:

1) drone strike, assassination attempt and "make sure" you get him and not a double:

There is a huge risk that any attempts along these lines would result in the scenario Steve Bannon describes above. You might advocate such type of action, but I'd think it would be insane. Also, can you elaborate on how you'd "make sure" you got him and not a double?

2). Internal coup.

This amounts to letting the NKs sorting out the "problem" themselves and by and large doing nothing until they accomplish it. As I said, 'doing nothing' is the best course of action, and if you want to rephrase it as 'wait for an internal coup' then I'm ok with that.

3) crippling sanctions.

I doubt there is enough will among the international community (China and Russia, for starters) to undertake this action. As Putin said, and I agree with him, 'NK would rather eat grass than give up their nuclear program.' On the flip side, it's been a viable theory that increased trade and dependecy among states is a better deterrent of war. However, I readily accept that there probably isn't a lot of will within the international community (the US for starters) to normalize trade relations with NK.

4) Shoot down NK test missiles.

Sure, you can try, and as you said, it may not even be possible. I doubt the US wants to tip their hand and reveal an imperfect system if that's the case, but if trying convinces the hawks that 'something is being done' ti their satisfaction then I have no major objection. I doubt it would have any de-escaltion effect, nor does it stop them from developing their weapons and delivery programs, but yeah... go for it if you really want to.

So once again, other than a few relatively meaningless gestures, I see no viable option but to simply ignore them. Maybe they'll pack it all in for 8 million dollars though - just make sure you follow their instructions for the drop off point and 'unmarked bills' accurately... or else!!!

1961 might come up with a good plan though?

I haven't got a plan, you are the one making the statements but obviously you can't or won't answer the question.
But don't bother replying I can't be bothered to read 10 paragraphs of your usual waffle.

[andy6025]

I haven't got a plan, you are the one making the statements but obviously you can't or won't answer the question.
But don't bother replying I can't be bothered to read 10 paragraphs of your usual waffle.

Ok, your question was: how long do you continue to do nothing, correct?

My answer:

Do it for just as long as Trump does.

You must be right p1ssed off that Trump hasn't done anything about it yet. You must think he's a right fanny!

[i961pie]

Ok, your question was: how long do you continue to do nothing, correct?

My answer:

Do it for just as long as Trump does.

You must be right p1ssed off that Trump hasn't done anything about it yet. You must think he's a right fanny!

You seem to have an unhealthy infatuation with Trump??? He isn't the one firing missiles over Japan.
I'm not worried about Trump but I am very worried about the nut case in NK, it only needs one of his bombs to go wrong and land in Japan or Guam and then Trump will be forced to act which you seem to want as you keep calling him a *****.

[andy6025]

Alright, you don't want to do nothing and you don't want to nuke NK... what do you want?

Oh right... "I haven't got a plan"

Next!

[tarquinbeech]

Alright, you don't want to do nothing and you don't want to nuke NK... what do you want?

Oh right... "I haven't got a plan"

Next!

Next?......what do you think of Notts being 2nd in the table?

[i961pie]

Alright, you don't want to do nothing and you don't want to nuke NK... what do you want?

Oh right... "I haven't got a plan"

Next!

I am not as clever as you obviously, you seem to know more about how to run the world than every one else or you think you do.
The ego as landed:P

[andy6025]

Next?......what do you think of Notts being 2nd in the table?

Fantastic, mate! We're headed straight for the top!

[Old_pie]

Fantastic, mate! We're headed straight for the top!

It'll be just our luck that WWIII will start just before we were about to be promoted. You might get to see Notts win though.

[i961pie]

Fantastic, mate! We're headed straight for the top!

On that we can agree on;D

[sidders]

On that we can agree on;D

Your extra 'on' is superfluous, 1961, but I'm with you in feeling exhilarated that the sh*t times appear to be at an end - at least until the war starts.

[i961pie]

Your extra 'on' is superfluous, 1961, but I'm with you in feeling exhilarated that the sh*t times appear to be at an end - at least until the war starts.

What war? Trump is a *****-- hang on let's not go there again;D

[SwalePie]

6533

[keldsyke]

North Korea accuses US of declaring war
.
.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41391978

[JoePass]

North Korea accuses US of declaring war
.
.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41391978



just nuke em and get it done with.

[JoePass]

6533

I would take Trump any day over the other weak world leaders.

[Elite_Pie]

I would take Trump any day over the other weak world leaders.

You kissed Cameron's arse until you worked out he was a remainer!

[JoePass]

You kissed Cameron's arse until you worked out he was a remainer!

Better than Diane Abbotts ;D

[i961pie]

Better than Diane Abbotts ;D

Probably her better side;D

[keldsyke]

This is funny 🙂
.
.
https://www.facebook.com/BillyBuckRoscoe/videos/1548890655173496/

[andy6025]

Looks like the White House just blinked. But don't worry, Football is only a temporary distraction - the regular programing will resume, with more d1ck rattling to keep the ratings up!