4-2-3-1 and the SFA

[geofoxposse]

Firstly this 4231 is a total disaster and has been for ages.. Firstly we don't have the players to play it, and you can clearly see they don't want to play it meaning they all look like total strangers when they walk onto the park.

Secondly its soooo feckin easy to play against for teams of ANY level. It leaves very obvious gaps all over the pitch for the opposition to use. The 3 line is so tight that there is no presence from the fullbacks up. Both have to cover ground (and back again) that leaves the entire team exposed.

Time to abandon it immediately.

Next this requirement for coaches and managers to have the wonderful bool**** SFA badges is simply pumping out bog standard generic coaches which is killing the game. The only clubs that can afford the inspirationional managers are the really wealthy ones (handful in Scotland). Can you imagine if JYM had been coached by the SFA?

Were in a league down now and look like being there for a time, we have expensive players of good standard. Time to totally revamp and change everything before its too late.

Adopt a 2-5-3 formation changeable to 2-3-5. There should be no opposition in this league that WE ALLOW to put enough pressure on us to defend for long periods. The best form of winning any game is to score goals and everyone in your own half won't achieve that.

[ianharab]

Have been banging on about this for ages mate , how the manager insists on playing it I honestly don't have a clue , yet there are people on here that defend it , unbelievable , got to be either 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 , especially at home in this league to go with one up front is criminal , it allows the opposition space and time to play , teams should fear coming to Tannadice knowing they are going to be under pressure from the start , we are seeing nothing of the sort for the reasons you pointed out above , McKinnon s insistance with this terrible formation will cost him his job

[Hoofballer]

The formation is just so wrong, we have so many players back in our own half that it just plays to the coached tippy tappy passing game, sideways and backwards that goes no place. By the time we get round to the punt up the park opposition are all back ready to out jump our bunch of shorties ! McDonald on his own!

We also have the world class punts like yesterday that land in the crowd anyway ......Edge, Robson, Murdoch, Briels, Quinn and Fyvie all guilty yesterday......feckin shocking, do they actually practise anything in training?
Passing from back was like the pre match shoot out .....woefull, misguided and miles off target.

[NOSCOTCAPS]

I think the SFA have been watching too much La Liga and other leagues where time on the ball is far more. Definitely not suitable for this league or any Scottish league, where any more than 3 seconds on the ball means broken legs!

I think Luggy says in the McLean Years video, certainly European games, typical up and at em Scottish Game (442?) and counter attacking away from home (451?) against quality opposition, this won us games. Ray needs to get some sage advice from wee Jim himself, if his mind is all still there. I suspect Jim has forgotten more about football tactics, than most managers will ever learn!

Interestingly Hearts have now appointed an 'old hand' at this moment I would welcome PH back as manager or Director of Football, maybe controversial but we need something. I am not saying young managers are all bad, but 3 in a row? If I was going to appoint a younger coach now, assuming Ross is not available (albeit he has had his aborations), then we could have been looking at him in yesterday's opposing dug out, knows what it's like to fight for survival and get points from a supposedly superior opposition.

I missed the game yesterday as was travelling but like to tune in to Sportsound and I think it was Charlie Mann that said he didn't think United were that good! Seems he is right.

[darrenshedtastic]

its a specialist formation imo similar to the 352. for it to work you need a certain type of player.

the 4231 was good under jackie because we had to the players to play it.
the 1 up top needs to be able to hold the ball up and be able to run in behind. (ciftci) we then need energy from a no.10 or who was also able to play passes (armstrong or gauld) the wide players had to be capable of coming inside and linking up and also being able to link up with the full back (GMS). the main think that made that jackie team threatening going forward was because the Fullbacks both bombed forward so they provided the width. (Robertson and Watson)

now compare that the guys in our team ? obviously not at the same quality but their not even in the same mould of the jackie team.
our full backs dont bomb forward enough (robson more than murdoch) fraser comes inside alot when hes the wide midfielder. that would work if you had a robertson type as the full back but we dont. we dont give mcdonald enough quality up to him. so he struggles to hold it up by himself and he cant run in behind. so far at tannadice ive seen qots, brechin and dumbarton all playing a higher line because mcdonald doesnt threaten in behind.

get back to basics. 442 at home. not too bothered if he tries a 451 or 4231 away from home because some games are tricky but at home we should be attacking teams and being the ones dictating play (looking like we might score).

[JUSTaway]

Too many coaches were seduced by Barcelona at their peak. It's all fine and well setting out to play in that style, but you have to be pragmatic too!

There is nothing wrong with the 4-2-3-1 formation if you have the players to play it but McKinnon seems to have decided to fit square pegs in round holes.

Basic requirements if you are playing without wingers is to have full-backs who can at least bomb on and provide width, and a focal point at the top who can hold the ball up and bring the others into play (e.g. a Ciftci type player). what did we do? Re-sign a honking midfielder in Murdoch who has been converted into at best a bog standard full-back, and if playing Scobbie at left-back, a defender with no pace or quality in the final third (and that's not even addressing the full-backs defensive issues). And sign a 33 year old stiker dwarf not suited to the lone striker role, and ask him to run the channels, win headers and hold the ball up, whilst offering him little support because we are so slow and ponderous moving the ball that he gets isolated.


Teams such as Dumbarton and Brechin get wrongly tarred as coming to Tannadice and sitting in with the aim of frustrating when in fact all they are is organised.

Nkoyi made a difference yesterday just because of the type of player he was, rather than his ability, which was pretty awful at times yesterday. But therein lies another problem, we dont really have the players without a hitman to play 4-4-2 particularly well either. Its should be common sense when you build a squad that you buy players of different strenghts to play different styles if need be.

also the movement at throw ins is absolutely woeful.

[JUSTaway]

the worrying thing is it takes about 20 mins of watching Utd to see these things

[Chick A Saw]

Interestingly Hearts have now appointed an 'old hand' at this moment I would welcome PH back as manager or Director of Football, maybe controversial but we need something.


I would have PH back tomorrow as well, but please remember his parting words and who is still in charge!

[NOSCOTCAPS]

Darren you mention Keith Watson in your post, it was a travesty we ever got rid for Ryan McGowan, which I never understood. Watson now on loan at Hartlepool, why did we not take him back. As for Scobbie never rated him and always injured and definitely no pace!

[SmedDUm]

Don't write off Tam just because he got injured for goodness sake
He'll be a very important back fourer when he returns, good signing.

[Arabs4ever]

What wins games? Scoring goals, more than the opposition. One upfront who is isolated does not work. Jackie after the Tim Two still persevered with it then the Finnish mixup in his first match against Hearts did the same. McKinnon also likes the lone striker, so much though that he'll spout Shiite during the week about playing two through the middle and resort to one up against the part-timers. I think most folk thought United were the part-timers as we had no clue how to break down the opposition or take the game to them.

[SmedDUm]

What wins games? Scoring goals, more than the opposition. One upfront who is isolated does not work. Jackie after the Tim Two still persevered with it then the Finnish mixup in his first match against Hearts did the same. McKinnon also likes the lone striker, so much though that he'll spout Shiite during the week about playing two through the middle and resort to one up against the part-timers. I think most folk thought United were the part-timers as we had no clue how to break down the opposition or take the game to them.

France 0 Luxembourg 0.
Scotland only 2 Malta 0.
Sometimes you need a tin opener.

[darrenshedtastic]

Darren you mention Keith Watson in your post, it was a travesty we ever got rid for Ryan McGowan, which I never understood. Watson now on loan at Hartlepool, why did we not take him back. As for Scobbie never rated him and always injured and definitely no pace!

i loved Watson he was my fave player at the time. liked a goal in a big game and was solid. A consistent performer. capable of the silly moments but everyone is. dont think watson and jackie got on or had a fallen out.

in the window where we lost gms and armstrong you could argue that an even bigger loss was letting watson and townsend go and replacing them with dixon and mcgowan. at the time looked good replacements but obviously having hindsight it totally disrupted the team.

Scobbie will be solid for us but dont know if he will be suited for LB. might struggle there. certainly need his leadership just now.

i saw fyvie was captain yesterday????? the boy who didnt know if he wanted to be here during the summer??? why wasnt quinn/edge/mcdonald skipper someone whos more experienced than fyvie??

[Chick A Saw]

i saw fyvie was captain yesterday????? the boy who didnt know if he wanted to be here during the summer??? why wasnt quinn/edge/mcdonald skipper someone whos more experienced than fyvie??

Thing is, im not 100% sure that is the right story in Fyvies case. Seems awfy fishy that Bell departed around the time that Fyvie all of a sudden made his mind up!

Aside from that, i think the whole captain thing is just another shambles with Flood as club captain and a long list of match day captains to deputize for him. Better than having the keeper as captain last season.

[NOSCOTCAPS]

Don't write off Tam just because he got injured for goodness sake
He'll be a very important back fourer when he returns, good signing.

I haven't written off Tam because he is injured, I just don't think he is good enough and have never really rated him. However that said if he dovetails into the side in some capacity, that is winning then fine, credit due if it happens!

[stokearab]

i loved Watson he was my fave player at the time. liked a goal in a big game and was solid. A consistent performer. capable of the silly moments but everyone is. dont think watson and jackie got on or had a fallen out.

in the window where we lost gms and armstrong you could argue that an even bigger loss was letting watson and townsend go and replacing them with dixon and mcgowan. at the time looked good replacements but obviously having hindsight it totally disrupted the team.

Scobbie will be solid for us but dont know if he will be suited for LB. might struggle there. certainly need his leadership just now.

i saw fyvie was captain yesterday????? the boy who didnt know if he wanted to be here during the summer??? why wasnt quinn/edge/mcdonald skipper someone whos more experienced than fyvie??

Watson was also Shedkas favorite player 😎
#spotted