Nicoliar calls

[Returnofrros]

For UK wide enquiry into the handling of covid.

Why no Scottish enquiry.....after all we all took different routes let's have separate enquiries.....lets see where the SNP and Greens went right and badly wrong.

Stop hiding behind the big boy you ****ing corrupt wee Ned.

[noahrab]

For UK wide enquiry into the handling of covid.

Why no Scottish enquiry.....after all we all took different routes let's have separate enquiries.....lets see where the SNP and Greens went right and badly wrong.

Stop hiding behind the big boy you ****ing corrupt wee Ned.

The cults (sp) will back her.

[Returnofrros]

The cults (sp) will back her.

Every day she stands up to tell the world "It's my ba".....then wants everyone to look away when the enquiries start.

She wants to shield behind Boris.....pity she never shielded folk in care homes.

[BCram]

Rross, it's politics. If you think the SNP have run an effective government during this term I would like some examples. For me they have been bailed out by the Greens. That makes the Greens an even bigger threat to democracy because they are not directly elected by anyone.

[Taintedice]

Asking for a tory to have an inquiry into tory corruption and incompetence, who knew she had such a great sense of humour XD

[Returnofrros]

Rross, it's politics. If you think the SNP have run an effective government during this term I would like some examples. For me they have been bailed out by the Greens. That makes the Greens an even bigger threat to democracy because they are not directly elected by anyone.

They haven't, I don't.

As corrupt an administration as this country will ever see.

[Taintedice]

The union jocks have lost the last 3 inquiries into covid and Britain's most popular politician, better luck next time eh XD

[Taintedice]

Rross, it's politics. If you think the SNP have run an effective government during this term I would like some examples. For me they have been bailed out by the Greens. That makes the Greens an even bigger threat to democracy because they are not directly elected by anyone.Lowest recorded rates of infant mortality ever recorded, lowest rates of stillbirth and other mortalities. You'd think the right-wing cranks would be happy with that at least.

[noahrab]

They haven't, I don't.

As corrupt an administration as this country will ever see.

The cults (sp) won’t agree.

[Returnofrros]

The cults (sp) won’t agree.

Nae surprise

[BCram]

Lowest recorded rates of infant mortality ever recorded, lowest rates of stillbirth and other mortalities. You'd think the right-wing cranks would be happy with that at least.

Just picked up this comment Taintedice. Quite correct but the UK has lower rates which mean that Scotland could do better. I am happy that Scotland is improving in this area yet we are behind other areas of the UK. Not everyone who disagrees with independence is a right wing crank, as I think you will discover when there is a resurgence in Scottish Labour.

[Returnofrros]

Just picked up this comment Taintedice. Quite correct but the UK has lower rates which mean that Scotland could do better. I am happy that Scotland is improving in this area yet we are behind other areas of the UK. Not everyone who disagrees with independence is a right wing crank, as I think you will discover when there is a resurgence in Scottish Labour.

🤣🤣🤣 anyone right of Stalin is a a right wing crank to the BLM supporting baby box brigade.

Yes sir I can boogie to replace the red flag.😂

[Taintedice]

Just picked up this comment Taintedice. Quite correct but the UK has lower rates which mean that Scotland could do better. I am happy that Scotland is improving in this area yet we are behind other areas of the UK. Not everyone who disagrees with independence is a right wing crank, as I think you will discover when there is a resurgence in Scottish Labour.Sorry but that isn't correct, for one thing, the UK isn't a country. Scotland and England appear to have similar rates, then again, most of England hasn't suffered 50 years of unionist neglect especially in its richer parts where infant mortality is historically lower. And why does everything have to revolve around independence, who even mentioned it. Thanks for the laugh about 'Scottish' labour though, if they are having a resurgence, they're doing a lot better than their counterparts down south!

[Taintedice]

������ anyone right of Stalin is a a right wing crank to the BLM supporting baby box brigade.

Yes sir I can boogie to replace the red flag.��Anyone who supports the 'Scottish Family Party' is definitely a right-wing crank, know anyone like that XD

[Returnofrros]

Anyone who supports the 'Scottish Family Party' is definitely a right-wing crank, know anyone like that XD

Quite a few......

[Taintedice]

Not surprised. Do they offer baby boxes?

[jdfc]

Not surprised. Do they offer baby boxes?

They do offer safety at school for children, and not the brainwashing shyte about gender they are being taught just now

[Taintedice]

Yeah but what are they going to do about the deficit

[BCram]

Yeah but what are they going to do about the deficit

At last, you agree that there is a deficit! This is real progress and a very welcome display of sanity. Well done. Now let's discuss how we can solve it.

[Returnofrros]

At last, you agree that there is a deficit! This is real progress and a very welcome display of sanity. Well done. Now let's discuss how we can solve it.

That was a schoolboy error.

[Taintedice]

At last, you agree that there is a deficit! This is real progress and a very welcome display of sanity. Well done. Now let's discuss how we can solve it.I was being sarcastic ;D

Anyway, I've no idea what the UK deficit has to do with HR elections, which the SFP are contesting, on a platform of banning women from playing golf XD

[BCram]

Think there is more corruption that needs questioning. Communist scientist at the heart of SAGE. Rross you were right. There is a conspiracy to shut down Britain and bring about revolution. Hitchens has great article today. Feeling quite pleased that there does seem to be some substance to the behavioural warfare that has been used against the British public. Has Nicola been aware of this?

[Returnofrros]

Think there is more corruption that needs questioning. Communist scientist at the heart of SAGE. Rross you were right. There is a conspiracy to shut down Britain and bring about revolution. Hitchens has great article today. Feeling quite pleased that there does seem to be some substance to the behavioural warfare that has been used against the British public. Has Nicola been aware of this?

Yeah....as I say if people think they ain't locking us up again they haven't really been paying attention.

Hitchens is the dogs *******s, him and Neil Oliver both know the score.

I see the SNP say Nicoliar has saved us and that's why we are "opening up".....opening up....lol leavel 3....the wee dentist still insisting we can't go on our holibobs.🙄

Hitchens saw the dangers early and was stunned when the press and the influential classes went along.......I fully expect furlough to be extended again and temp emergency measures to be extended in August.

Think he said a couple of weeks ago the "war" is really over you can only win your own small personal battles now.

Sad times just don't seem quite so bad at the minute cause the sun is shining but I genuinely don't expect anything like normality again.

[BCram]

The Russell Group of universities are fighting back too. Cancel culture is the antithesis of free speech and radical thought so we are not alone.

[Returnofrros]

The Russell Group of universities are fighting back too. Cancel culture is the antithesis of free speech and radical thought so we are not alone.

Scariest line in his article.....really hits the nail......."As such a dissenter, I can say with certainty, that the Govt completely crushed my side in the argument. Most people still don't even know what we think"

Utterly brilliant and you can replace covid with BLM, LGBT, Climate change etc etc etc....no other opinions are allowed.....that's the way control is won.

[Deeranged]

From day one it was clearly an exercise in social control.

Now who was it said that over 12 months ago? But of course others knew better, you know, the ones you hear very little from now.

[Taintedice]

Just the 5500 deaths per day happening in india right now but it's all still a hoax.

The D-Anon rivalling their Q counterparts for madness. Hitchens absolutely eviscerated on social media today, great to watch.

[Taintedice]

Think there is more corruption that needs questioning. Communist scientist at the heart of SAGE. Rross you were right. There is a conspiracy to shut down Britain and bring about revolution. Hitchens has great article today. Feeling quite pleased that there does seem to be some substance to the behavioural warfare that has been used against the British public. Has Nicola been aware of this?What the phukk has happened to you, you expect this from the other two not the voice of reason???

[Returnofrros]

From day one it was clearly an exercise in social control.

Now who was it said that over 12 months ago? But of course others knew better, you know, the ones you hear very little from now.

And now they think....."that was easy, let's have it all the time"........Johnson....cowardly, Nicoliar....Corrupt opportunist as ****....Hancock....evil.....sage....mad....leitch. ...🙄...MSM....hopeless...public sector workers....this is fine....nhs....basically shut down.....auld folk...scared witless....

Mix it all together.....and bake for 14 months.

[BCram]

What the phukk has happened to you, you expect this from the other two not the voice of reason???

Just putting forward ideas from sources that you and others might not read. Is it not reasonable to question your own thinking? I think you are wrong to continually claim that covid denying is the basis of those who question the way that covid is being dealt with.

India is a disaster and absolutely no one is saying anything other. The initial wave did not appear so virulent as this second wave and everyone had thought that there must have been something in the population that prevented the virus from taking hold in the way it has done for this second wave.

The way that this country has operated has been by consent. The public vote for people to lead the policies and decision making in parliament. We agree to obey their laws because that's the way it works. If we don't like them we can vote for another lot to try and do better. In Scotland it is a wee bit different because there are people who prefer to vote for the SNP whilst not wanting to leave the Union. This election seems to me to be about deciding if you really want independence then vote for the SNP, if you don't want independence then do not vote for either the SNP or the Greens.

It appears to me that this democratic process is under attack, and instead of all our best brains trying to work out a lockdown free approach to living with covid, their efforts are being channelled into finding ways to enforce lockdowns.

It seems entirely reasonable to ask for a future plan that relies on an approqach to dealing with covid without lockdowns.

[Taintedice]

Come on, the reason for lockdowns is because a deadly virus was spreading across the population.

The idea of it all being a social control experiment is a loony conspiracy theory.

Problem for Hitchens and co is they are now desperate for new lockdowns to prove themselves right.

Everyone else gets on with life post-lockdown.

Just to add, HMRC has been engaged in social control experiments against tax payers for around a decade.

[Returnofrros]

Just putting forward ideas from sources that you and others might not read. Is it not reasonable to question your own thinking? I think you are wrong to continually claim that covid denying is the basis of those who question the way that covid is being dealt with.

India is a disaster and absolutely no one is saying anything other. The initial wave did not appear so virulent as this second wave and everyone had thought that there must have been something in the population that prevented the virus from taking hold in the way it has done for this second wave.

The way that this country has operated has been by consent. The public vote for people to lead the policies and decision making in parliament. We agree to obey their laws because that's the way it works. If we don't like them we can vote for another lot to try and do better. In Scotland it is a wee bit different because there are people who prefer to vote for the SNP whilst not wanting to leave the Union. This election seems to me to be about deciding if you really want independence then vote for the SNP, if you don't want independence then do not vote for either the SNP or the Greens.

It appears to me that this democratic process is under attack, and instead of all our best brains trying to work out a lockdown free approach to living with covid, their efforts are being channelled into finding ways to enforce lockdowns.

It seems entirely reasonable to ask for a future plan that relies on an approqach to dealing with covid without lockdowns.

Very good post.

Did you know an estimated 200 to 300k marched in London at the weekend in protest against lockdowns......not reported on MSM.

[BCram]

Come on, the reason for lockdowns is because a deadly virus was spreading across the population.

The idea of it all being a social control experiment is a loony conspiracy theory.

Problem for Hitchens and co is they are now desperate for new lockdowns to prove themselves right.

Everyone else gets on with life post-lockdown.

Just to add, HMRC has been engaged in social control experiments against tax payers for around a decade.

Nobody, to my knowledge has claimed that lockdowns are a social experiment. The way that there appears to be little critical thinking about alternatives to lockdowns is surprising, and the efforts being made to frighten people to comply is worrying me.

HMRC do seem to be heavy handed. Not sure that I would describe their activities as social control but it does seem that they jump on the wee people and do deals big tax avoiders. Can't remember the figure that they failed to collect but I am sure there are some very big numbers.

[BCram]

Very good post.

Did you know an estimated 200 to 300k marched in London at the weekend in protest against lockdowns......not reported on MSM.

It didn't happen! If it isn't on BBC then it was a non event.

[Deeranged]

Nobody, to my knowledge has claimed that lockdowns are a social experiment.

I have, and I stand by it.

[Deeranged]

It didn't happen! If it isn't on BBC then it was a non event.

Yeah, this is a painting and a work of fiction - more social control, just don't tell em and they'll never know the truth.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/anti-lockdown-protesters-defy-restrictions-central-london-march-2021-04-24/

[Taintedice]

Nobody, to my knowledge has claimed that lockdowns are a social experiment. That has been a recurring theme on here for a year, surprised you missed it.

[Taintedice]

It didn't happen! If it isn't on BBC then it was a non event.It happened, with about 10,000 people, not a huge percentage of the population. Reported everywhere :rolleyes:

[Returnofrros]

Yeah, this is a painting and a work of fiction - more social control, just don't tell em and they'll never know the truth.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/anti-lockdown-protesters-defy-restrictions-central-london-march-2021-04-24/

Huge turnout, will go with 200k as that seems to be the lower of the eyewitness estimates.

Everyday more and more are seeing thru covid measures and the absolute folly of lockdown.......can they pressure politicians to be brave this Autumn and resist the lockdown loonies.......somehow doubt it but would be delighted to be wrong.

[Taintedice]

From the link above:
"Several thousand anti-lockdown demonstrators marched through central London on Saturday despite restrictions on mass gatherings during the COVID-19 pandemic."

"Media reports put numbers at about 10,000, though the Metropolitan Police did not confirm a figure."

I guess everyone else was at the pub or the park or the beach, enjoying life after lockdown.

[islaydarkblue]

Very good post.

Did you know an estimated 200 to 300k marched in London at the weekend in protest against lockdowns......not reported on MSM.
There was a photograph in the Sunday Times dated 25th April 2021 showing thousands of people in Oxford Street London protesting against having to wear a mask. In the photograph there is a single policeman wearing a mask whilst everyone else is not wearing a mask. Thank goodness for top quality newspapers being prepared to tell the truth.

[islaydarkblue]

From the link above:
"Several thousand anti-lockdown demonstrators marched through central London on Saturday despite restrictions on mass gatherings during the COVID-19 pandemic."

"Media reports put numbers at about 10,000, though the Metropolitan Police did not confirm a figure."

I guess everyone else was at the pub or the park or the beach, enjoying life after lockdown.
People wearing a mask in India does not appear to have halted the spread of the Covid-19 virus.

[Taintedice]

India had huge religious festivals all over the country a few weeks ago, now their death toll is approaching 5500 a day.

Covid is a hoax.

Which one of the above is more accurate?

[BCram]

India had huge religious festivals all over the country a few weeks ago, now their death toll is approaching 5500 a day.

Covid is a hoax.

Which one of the above is more accurate?

You are the only person that says covid is a hoax. why persist with this?
We need to find a way of living without lockdowns. surely it isn't beyond our ability to find a solution?

[Returnofrros]

You are the only person that says covid is a hoax. why persist with this?
We need to find a way of living without lockdowns. surely it isn't beyond our ability to find a solution?


The solution is to get it written into law politicians cannot do this again.....shutting down life, destroying business, saddling the country with enormous debt.....and still I am convinced the cycle will begin again in the Autumn.

What's the point of getting vaccinated if the threat of lockdown and restriction is always there.

Level 0 is not back to normal.

[BCram]

The solution is to get it written into law politicians cannot do this again.....shutting down life, destroying business, saddling the country with enormous debt.....and still I am convinced the cycle will begin again in the Autumn.

What's the point of getting vaccinated if the threat of lockdown and restriction is always there.

Level 0 is not back to normal.

If you keep saying you are afraid that lockdowns will return are you actually helping to make them happen? Isn't there something that can be done to stop covid without lockdowns. Seems to me that there are practical examples of illnesses that are endemic and can and do kill thousands per year but the response is not to encourage the population to run away and hide but rather take preventative medicines vaccinations and basic hygiene measures.

Surely there is a level where the risks are reduced to the equivalent of other diseases. Prince Harry was right, there is little point in the I am all right Jack mentality where some countries are fully vaccinated, if there are many many more who are dying, with India being an obvious example.

[Returnofrros]

If you keep saying you are afraid that lockdowns will return are you actually helping to make them happen? Isn't there something that can be done to stop covid without lockdowns. Seems to me that there are practical examples of illnesses that are endemic and can and do kill thousands per year but the response is not to encourage the population to run away and hide but rather take preventative medicines vaccinations and basic hygiene measures.

Surely there is a level where the risks are reduced to the equivalent of other diseases. Prince Harry was right, there is little point in the I am all right Jack mentality where some countries are fully vaccinated, if there are many many more who are dying, with India being an obvious example.

I see it other way, the more politicians are aware people know what they might do the less likely they are to do it......we can see you....sorta thing.

The ginger one wouldn't say anything unless his wife gave him permission.

Thankfully the UK govt were on the ball when it came to vaccine and we could act quickly because of Brexit.

Still waiting on the huge rise in cases since reopening schools....not happened, not gonna happening.

Sweden showed how to deal with a pandemic which was basically our model till the Govt panicked and Johnson got ILL.

Pressure will mount again in Autumn, they have to have the balls to resist.

[BCram]

I see it other way, the more politicians are aware people know what they might do the less likely they are to do it......we can see you....sorta thing.

The ginger one wouldn't say anything unless his wife gave him permission.

Thankfully the UK govt were on the ball when it came to vaccine and we could act quickly because of Brexit.

Still waiting on the huge rise in cases since reopening schools....not happened, not gonna happening.

Sweden showed how to deal with a pandemic which was basically our model till the Govt panicked and Johnson got ILL.

Pressure will mount again in Autumn, they have to have the balls to resist.

I think there needs to be an alternative set of proposals which is put forward by scientists who understand that their brief is to control covid to a level that puts it on a mortality par with some of the major historical diseases.

[islaydarkblue]

I think there needs to be an alternative set of proposals which is put forward by scientists who understand that their brief is to control covid to a level that puts it on a mortality par with some of the major historical diseases.
Last Sunday evening I watched Channel 4 news because I had missed seeing the BBC news at tea time.
There was a very interesting film report from Chile explaining that despite the country of Chile having one of the best Covid-19 vaccination rates in the world Covid-19 the number of positive cases are surging there.
I enclose an article about it. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/19/covid-chiles-coronavirus-cases-hit-record-levels-despite-vaccine-rollout.html
I enclose another article on the same subject. https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/americas/chile-coronavirus-vaccination-cases-intl/index.html
It appears that the Politicians and Health Experts throughout the UK do not want us to know about the surging number of Covid-19 cases despite Chile being in third place in the world for countries having vaccinated their population behind Israel and the United Kingdom.
Perhaps the Covid-19 vaccinations are not the ‘magic bullet’ that our UK ‘experts’ think they are and the Covid-19 virus should have been left to run its course.

[eric_sinclair]

I see it other way, the more politicians are aware people know what they might do the less likely they are to do it......we can see you....sorta thing.

The ginger one wouldn't say anything unless his wife gave him permission.

Thankfully the UK govt were on the ball when it came to vaccine and we could act quickly because of Brexit.

Still waiting on the huge rise in cases since reopening schools....not happened, not gonna happening.

Sweden showed how to deal with a pandemic which was basically our model till the Govt panicked and Johnson got ILL.

Pressure will mount again in Autumn, they have to have the balls to resist.

We were already in lockdown before Boris "got ill" tho.
Just wanted to ask you 2 questions.
You predict lockdown each winter, who do you think wants this?
Do you blame our covid deaths mainly on Boris seeing as he runs the union?

No political here, genuinely interested.

[Returnofrros]

We were already in lockdown before Boris "got ill" tho.
Just wanted to ask you 2 questions.
You predict lockdown each winter, who do you think wants this?
Do you blame our covid deaths mainly on Boris seeing as he runs the union?

No political here, genuinely interested.

No one, except one or two sage folk.

I don't blame the deaths on anyone really, I blame policy for a lot of the things around covid. He dosent run health in Scotland or the decisions made on covid policy in Scotland.....that's Nicoliar.

April 16th was key date for England, Johnson was at chequeres recovering and Dominic rabb (I think) was in charge who agreed to another 3 week 😂 extension of lockdown.

Anyway tee off 11, clubhouse open, rumour has it we maybe allowed to touch some rakes soon.🙄

[eric_sinclair]

No one, except one or two sage folk.

I don't blame the deaths on anyone really, I blame policy for a lot of the things around covid. He dosent run health in Scotland or the decisions made on covid policy in Scotland.....that's Nicoliar.

April 16th was key date for England, Johnson was at chequeres recovering and Dominic rabb (I think) was in charge who agreed to another 3 week 😂 extension of lockdown.

Anyway tee off 11, clubhouse open, rumour has it we maybe allowed to touch some rakes soon.🙄

But Boris called the initial lockdown in March.

[Returnofrros]

But Boris called the initial lockdown in March.

For England and Wales.

[Returnofrros]

But Boris called the initial lockdown in March.

Ahh see what you mean but I maintain him getting I'll and rabbs decision in April was more important (For eng and wales) Johnson dosent get I'll it may have just been the 1 short lockdown by then it was almost conclusively proved they didn't really work as numbers were falling before 1st lockdown had any effect.

No lockdown, no furlough sturgeon cudnt follow suit....alas there was, she did.

[Taintedice]

But Boris called the initial lockdown in March.rros proclaims Sweden as examplar with 14,000 deaths yet is in rage mode about Scotgov dealing with a similar number. How do you even deal with that, rros ignored all the guidelines and killed his parents. But its not his fault, blame the SNP. The lack of intelligence is startling.

[Returnofrros]

rros proclaims Sweden as examplar with 14,000 deaths yet is in rage mode about Scotgov dealing with a similar number. How do you even deal with that, rros ignored all the guidelines and killed his parents. But its not his fault, blame the SNP. The lack of intelligence is startling.

Sweden ❤

[Taintedice]

Ahh see what you mean but I maintain him getting I'll and rabbs decision in April was more important (For eng and wales) Johnson dosent get I'll it may have just been the 1 short lockdown by then it was almost conclusively proved they didn't really work as numbers were falling before 1st lockdown had any effect.

No lockdown, no furlough sturgeon cudnt follow suit....alas there was, she did.80,000 dead from the lack of 2nd lockdown, what is seriously wrong with you?

[jdfc]

80,000 dead from the lack of 2nd lockdown, what is seriously wrong with you?

Scotland has one of the highest death rates in Europe, you can’t look any further than Boris, he told Nippy to send the ill OAP’s back to the nursing homes to spread COVID and die, eh right, blood is on Nippys hands and she knows it

[Deeranged]

Scotland has one of the highest death rates in Europe, you can’t look any further than Boris, he told Nippy to send the ill OAP’s back to the nursing homes to spread COVID and die, eh right, blood is on Nippys hands and she knows it

So very, very wrong and I'll show you why.

There are 44 countries that can be considered as European sovereign states. By this definition Scotland is not a sovereign state so is not included as one of the 44. However -

Scotland has a population of circa 5.5M and has suffered 7,660 total deaths. Quick calculation shows that Scotland is sitting on 1,392 Covid attributed (positive test within 28 days) deaths per million.

UK overall is 1,904 deaths per million and that is currently 11th highest in Europe.

Sweden is sitting at 1,369 deaths per million and is 19th highest in Europe. I'm sure you'll agree that compares very well with Scotland.

Scotland isn't considered separately from the UK as a whole however if it was it would be 19th highest in Europe and Sweden would be 20th.

I'm not saying Sturgeon has handled Covid any better or any worse than BoJo (both have made a right bubbling runt of it IMO) but what I will say is that you're miles off with your assertion that Scotland has one of the highest death rates in Europe - it's roughly middle and sitting just within the second quartile of death rates per million whilst the UK as a whole is performing much worse and is in the first quartile.

ETA - For the record, I didn't count Armenia as a European country as it's technically in Asia. If you count Armenia, 1,408 deaths per million, Scotland is 20th highest and Sweden 21st.

[Deeranged]

Sweden ❤

Performing overall just better than Scotland in the death rate charts but are still reporting deaths whilst Scotland seems to have ground almost to a halt.

[BCram]

So very, very wrong and I'll show you why.

There are 44 countries that can be considered as European sovereign states. By this definition Scotland is not a sovereign state so is not included as one of the 44. However -

Scotland has a population of circa 5.5M and has suffered 7,660 total deaths. Quick calculation shows that Scotland is sitting on 1,392 Covid attributed (positive test within 28 days) deaths per million.

UK overall is 1,904 deaths per million and that is currently 11th highest in Europe.

Sweden is sitting at 1,369 deaths per million and is 19th highest in Europe. I'm sure you'll agree that compares very well with Scotland.

Scotland isn't considered separately from the UK as a whole however if it was it would be 19th highest in Europe and Sweden would be 20th.

I'm not saying Sturgeon has handled Covid any better or any worse than BoJo (both have made a right bubbling runt of it IMO) but what I will say is that you're miles off with your assertion that Scotland has one of the highest death rates in Europe - it's roughly middle and sitting just within the second quartile of death rates per million whilst the UK as a whole is performing much worse and is in the first quartile.

Thanks Deeranged. Had just been doing the maths for a Scotland Sweden comparison. I think Rross would make the point that Sweden has not dealt with covid the same way and has not suffered the same economic fall out. Perhaps there is a way to battle covid without lockdowns?

[Deeranged]

Thanks Deeranged. Had just been doing the maths for a Scotland Sweden comparison. I think Rross would make the point that Sweden has not dealt with covid the same way and has not suffered the same economic fall out. Perhaps there is a way to battle covid without lockdowns?

I think it shows that full lockdown has had little or no tangible effect on death rates. Sweden seems to have coped without it.

I think a certain Ray Of Sunshine has been banging that drum for a good while now. When he's right he's right I guess?

[Returnofrros]

Performing overall just better than Scotland in the death rate charts but are still reporting deaths whilst Scotland seems to have ground almost to a halt.

And we will be counting non diagnosed cancer deaths for next 5 years.

[Returnofrros]

Thanks Deeranged. Had just been doing the maths for a Scotland Sweden comparison. I think Rross would make the point that Sweden has not dealt with covid the same way and has not suffered the same economic fall out. Perhaps there is a way to battle covid without lockdowns?

Or the same amount of deaths or shortened lives in the long run.

Sweden put in place the UK plans for an epidemic and it's worked very well.

[Deeranged]

And we will be counting non diagnosed cancer deaths for next 5 years.

Vulnerable people will start getting other infections when they start mixing again so death rate will not drop in the short term. 'Protection' from Covid will have depleted population resistance (herd immunity) to things as mundane as the common cold.

[Deeranged]

Or the same amount of deaths or shortened lives in the long run.

Sweden put in place the UK plans for an epidemic and it's worked very well.

No need for a sensible, competent and effective policy when you can have a good old fashioned knee jerk.

[Returnofrros]

My simplistic summary.

3 week lockdown extended mainly cause Johnson got ILL and MSM hysteria.

Nicoliar has used pandemic for political purposes.

Freedom and liberty has been eroded greatly.

Social experiment.....I think yes though not 100% yet.

Will full lockdown happen again....I think probably yes, will restrictions be fully lifted .....no.

Every sage model, every single one.....wrong.

And unfortunately some people like living like this.

Economic damage, unemployment and inflation......horrific, high, will end up high.

All imho.

Anyway 2nd half.

[jdfc]

So very, very wrong and I'll show you why.

There are 44 countries that can be considered as European sovereign states. By this definition Scotland is not a sovereign state so is not included as one of the 44. However -

Scotland has a population of circa 5.5M and has suffered 7,660 total deaths. Quick calculation shows that Scotland is sitting on 1,392 Covid attributed (positive test within 28 days) deaths per million.

UK overall is 1,904 deaths per million and that is currently 11th highest in Europe.

Sweden is sitting at 1,369 deaths per million and is 19th highest in Europe. I'm sure you'll agree that compares very well with Scotland.

Scotland isn't considered separately from the UK as a whole however if it was it would be 19th highest in Europe and Sweden would be 20th.

I'm not saying Sturgeon has handled Covid any better or any worse than BoJo (both have made a right bubbling runt of it IMO) but what I will say is that you're miles off with your assertion that Scotland has one of the highest death rates in Europe - it's roughly middle and sitting just within the second quartile of death rates per million whilst the UK as a whole is performing much worse and is in the first quartile.

ETA - For the record, I didn't count Armenia as a European country as it's technically in Asia. If you count Armenia, 1,408 deaths per million, Scotland is 20th highest and Sweden 21st.
I suppose it all depends on whose facts we look at, out of 34 countries Scotland is in the top 10, but other sites may tell you otherwise

[Returnofrros]

No need for a sensible, competent and effective policy when you can have a good old fashioned knee jerk.

They plans had been in place since 2003, dropped and abandoned over the course of 2 days.🙄

[eric_sinclair]

My simplistic summary.

3 week lockdown extended mainly cause Johnson got ILL and MSM hysteria.

Nicoliar has used pandemic for political purposes.

Freedom and liberty has been eroded greatly.

Social experiment.....I think yes though not 100% yet.

Will full lockdown happen again....I think probably yes, will restrictions be fully lifted .....no.

Every sage model, every single one.....wrong.

And unfortunately some people like living like this.

Economic damage, unemployment and inflation......horrific, high, will end up high.

All imho.

Anyway 2nd half.

Assuming
1.Boris was ill? Juries oot for me.
2.He was ill but did rab call the shots? (this is the one I don't believe).
The main question was you predict future lockdown but who do you think is controlling this seeing as its global and not only UK.

[Deeranged]

I suppose it all depends on whose facts we look at, out of 34 countries Scotland is in the top 10, but other sites may tell you otherwise

I just looked at the stats issued by the nations themselves and not at any site J.

I don't tend to look at any particular newspaper and / or website as my sole source of information, I look at information and form my own opinion; sometimes I'm wrong but usually I'm not booting the arse off being right. To coin a phrase 'the truth is out there' and sometimes you just have to look a bit harder.

That's why a couple of posters on this site dislike me so much, they're just sheep who read one paper or source and take every word as gospel.

[eric_sinclair]

I suppose it all depends on whose facts we look at, out of 34 countries Scotland is in the top 10, but other sites may tell you otherwise

I know we have fared much better than England but no saw comparison with other countries outwith UK ones.

[BCram]

England 112k deaths, population 56.29m= 1.99 deaths per thousand of population.
Scotland 7660 deaths, population 5.454m= 1.4 deaths per thousand of population.
Sweden 14061 deaths, population 10.38m = 1.35 deaths per thousand of population.
As a percentage England has had 42% more deaths than Scotland, and 47% more deaths than Sweden. That is a lot poorer outcome for England.

[noahrab]

Assuming
1.Boris was ill? Juries oot for me.
2.He was ill but did rab call the shots? (this is the one I don't believe).
The main question was you predict future lockdown but who do you think is controlling this seeing as its global and not only UK.

You don’t believe he was ill?

FFS, that’s some NHS cover up.

Take the hate filled blinkers off.

[eric_sinclair]

You don’t believe he was ill?

FFS, that’s some NHS cover up.

Take the hate filled blinkers off.

Nae hate filled blinkers, dinna believe half the ****s.Most are corrupt imo.

[noahrab]

Nae hate filled blinkers, dinna believe half the ****s.Most are corrupt imo.

So the NHS doctors and nurses who treated him are involved in a conspiratorial cover up?

Have they done that for anyone else or just him?

[Returnofrros]

I know we have fared much better than England but no saw comparison with other countries outwith UK ones.

We haven't.

Scotland is empty and still we have the highest cases, still we have the least vaccinated, still we have the most restrictions.

[Taintedice]

We haven't.

Scotland is empty and still we have the highest cases, still we have the least vaccinated, still we have the most restrictions.all lies, why?

[Taintedice]

So the NHS doctors and nurses who treated him are involved in a conspiratorial cover up?

Have they done that for anyone else or just him?Johnson was in hospital for alcohol and drug issue. He never had covid.

[Taintedice]

Scotland has one of the highest death rates in Europe, you can’t look any further than Boris, he told Nippy to send the ill OAP’s back to the nursing homes to spread COVID and die, eh right, blood is on Nippys hands and she knows itScotland did very poorly as part of the UK, correct. Undoubtedly people in Scotland refused to accept covid was a serious threat and continued as normal. Do you know anyone like that? The Scottish govt had no chance of keeping a lid on things when tories chased herd immunity.

[eric_sinclair]

We haven't.

Scotland is empty and still we have the highest cases, still we have the least vaccinated, still we have the most restrictions.

Going by number of deaths by population we have.

[Taintedice]

England had 1500 deaths a day in the first weeks of January as Johnson told everyone to travel and mix freely at Christmas. Nicola Sturgeon made it clear do not mix and Scotland avoided those deaths. Never vote tory.

[Deeranged]

You don’t believe he was ill?

FFS, that’s some NHS cover up.

Take the hate filled blinkers off.

Below from The Guardian published 17th April 2020 - seems pretty damning. As I read it yes he had Covid, but he didn't have bad enough symptoms to warrant admission to ICU. It also looks like the sleazy Tory scumbags conspired to lie to the press and of course the public. Still, I suppose we've come to expect that from them so no shocker there.


''One source inside the hospital said Johnson was “very sick” when taken into ICU. “It was touch and go whether he would be put on a ventilator,” the source said.

The same source, however, wonders whether the prime minister really should have been in intensive care.

About 130 other patients were in critical care at the time, the vast majority hooked up to ventilators. At no point was Johnson on a ventilator. Nor did he receive Cpap, a less invasive form of treatment.

The source said: “Before the coronavirus crisis you could be in ICU without being on a ventilator but pretty much every bed is now taken by a coronavirus patient with a ventilator. I know people who work in ICU and I know the technicians who prepare all the equipment and they all say he was not put on a ventilator. He was taking up an ICU bed when he didn’t need it. The idea that you would put a patient who didn’t need a ventilator on an ICU bed is nonsense.”

[Deeranged]

So the question is

Why was the PM admitted to an NHS run ICU, which was seemingly 'overrun', at the time when his treatment could have been administered in a regular ward or possibly even at home?

I think the answer is propaganda -

'how do you get get an incompetent PM to u-turn on some of his blurted out and ill conceived comments and at the same time time scare the gullible into thinking this pandemic is a bigger issue than it really is Matt'?

'I know Dom, let's pretend Boris has Covid so bad that he needs admitted to ICU. The mugs will have visions of him in an induced coma and on a ventilator like the genuine patients so will take pity on him when in reality he'll be sitting in that bed reading whilst others die around him. We can then paint him as a stoic advocate of all the restrictions we want to impose on people and can claim he knows how bad it can be because he's been there'.

'Brilliant Matt, and down the line when asked about it we'll just lie because at least that's something we can do well'.

'Excellent Dom, just you go and self isolate up in Durham for now, I'll take care of it'.

'Great idea Matt, I have a castle on my to visit list, I'll get a trip there while I'm away'.

[jdfc]

Below from The Guardian published 17th April 2020 - seems pretty damning. As I read it yes he had Covid, but he didn't have bad enough symptoms to warrant admission to ICU. It also looks like the sleazy Tory scumbags conspired to lie to the press and of course the public. Still, I suppose we've come to expect that from them so no shocker there.


''One source inside the hospital said Johnson was “very sick” when taken into ICU. “It was touch and go whether he would be put on a ventilator,” the source said.

The same source, however, wonders whether the prime minister really should have been in intensive care.

About 130 other patients were in critical care at the time, the vast majority hooked up to ventilators. At no point was Johnson on a ventilator. Nor did he receive Cpap, a less invasive form of treatment.

The source said: “Before the coronavirus crisis you could be in ICU without being on a ventilator but pretty much every bed is now taken by a coronavirus patient with a ventilator. I know people who work in ICU and I know the technicians who prepare all the equipment and they all say he was not put on a ventilator. He was taking up an ICU bed when he didn’t need it. The idea that you would put a patient who didn’t need a ventilator on an ICU bed is nonsense.”

The clue is at the start, “The Gaurdian”

[jdfc]

So the question is

Why was the PM admitted to an NHS run ICU, which was seemingly 'overrun', at the time when his treatment could have been administered in a regular ward or possibly even at home?

I think the answer is propaganda -

'how do you get get an incompetent PM to u-turn on some of his blurted out and ill conceived comments and at the same time time scare the gullible into thinking this pandemic is a bigger issue than it really is Matt'?

'I know Dom, let's pretend Boris has Covid so bad that he needs admitted to ICU. The mugs will have visions of him in an induced coma and on a ventilator like the genuine patients so will take pity on him when in reality he'll be sitting in that bed reading whilst others die around him. We can then paint him as a stoic advocate of all the restrictions we want to impose on people and can claim he knows how bad it can be because he's been there'.

'Brilliant Matt, and down the line when asked about it we'll just lie because at least that's something we can do well'.

'Excellent Dom, just you go and self isolate up in Durham for now, I'll take care of it'.

'Great idea Matt, I have a castle on my to visit list, I'll get a trip there while I'm away'.

Put him in a normal ward ? and help spread it, good thinking

When he was admitted it was a time when we didn’t know where this was going, we were watching horror stories from Italy, they obviously took precautions, but for people to claim he wasn’t ill, they’ll be claiming mans never been to the moon next

[eric_sinclair]

Put him in a normal ward ? and help spread it, good thinking

When he was admitted it was a time when we didn’t know where this was going, we were watching horror stories from Italy, they obviously took precautions, but for people to claim he wasn’t ill, they’ll be claiming mans never been to the moon next

He was admitted start of April if my memory is tight, we were already in lockdown It wasn't really my issue on his illness, I just found it hard to believe that altho Dominic raab was deputising Boris was still calling the shots.As tories go, I actually prefer Boris to Cameron and may, cud never vote for them tho. 😉

[Deeranged]

Put him in a normal ward ? and help spread it, good thinking

When he was admitted it was a time when we didn’t know where this was going, we were watching horror stories from Italy, they obviously took precautions, but for people to claim he wasn’t ill, they’ll be claiming mans never been to the moon next

J the whole NHS was shut down at that point, no cancer treatments, no elective ops, emergency only and elderly Covid 19 infected patients (the ones most likely to die of its effects) decanted to care homes where they could pass it on to other highly vulnerable residents. Every bed in every hospital in every country of the UK was given over to treatment of Covid patients. We all know that the beds were lying empty whilst nurses, doctors, radiographers surgeons etc. did Tik Tok videos, cancer patients got worse or even died and people already struggling with their mental health committed suicide so for me yes, 100% he could have been in one of those beds.

[grantzer]

J the whole NHS was shut down at that point, no cancer treatments, no elective ops, emergency only and elderly Covid 19 infected patients (the ones most likely to die of its effects) decanted to care homes where they could pass it on to other highly vulnerable residents. Every bed in every hospital in every country of the UK was given over to treatment of Covid patients. We all know that the beds were lying empty whilst nurses, doctors, radiographers surgeons etc. did Tik Tok videos, cancer patients got worse or even died and people already struggling with their mental health committed suicide so for me yes, 100% he could have been in one of those beds.
That is about 90% not true. The NHS was still accepting patients for non coronavirus conditions,the stats tell us suicide rates did not go up, and the number of tik told was not that high. Every bed was not given over to covid,and only elderly patients who were due to be released were put back into care homes.( Not that that makes it right).

That Boris had covid is not really up for debate, too many people involved for that to be false,someone would have talked,the severity of his condition could be questioned tho. But given he is prime minister,you have to expect they will take no chances and as long as no-one was kicked out,or kept out of ICU for him,I can't see a problem there.

[Deeranged]

That is about 90% not true.

Well that depends very much on who you want to believe.

I know several people who work at Ninewells and who have told me directly that there was very little happening outside of Covid and immediate intervention / emergency medicine.

Bit of an assumption on my part as regards suicides admittedly, however if support is withdrawn from vulnerable people, as it was, it's likely to result in increased incidences of self harm and / or suicide surely? Maybe death by self harm, where the person tested positive for Covid - 19 in the preceding 28 days is a Covid death rather than a suicide?

[Deeranged]

The NHS was still accepting patients for non coronavirus conditions,the stats tell us suicide rates did not go up,

I can only see data for up to 2019.

In 2019 the number of suicides reported in Scotland was 833, in 2018 it was 784 an increase of 5.9% in 2019 over 2018 - this is under something called the 'New Coding Rules'. I've no idea what the coding rules are.

The five year rolling average for suicides up to 2015 was 776, for 2016 it was 744, for 2017 it was 714, for 2018 it was 712 and for 2019 it was 739.4 - does that really say suicide rate isn't increasing? These are the stats after all and they tell me the rate seemed to drop off up until 2019 when there was a fairly significant increase. What happened in 2019 to cause this jump? Will that same thing cause another increase in 2020? I rather think it will, in fact I think it'll be significantly worse with the added stress of Covid.

Can you show me where I can find the published information to back your statement that the suicide rate isn't increasing? I'm genuinely interested. NRS website doesn't seem to have any 2020 data yet so for now let's just say the rate's on the up.

[noahrab]

Put him in a normal ward ? and help spread it, good thinking

When he was admitted it was a time when we didn’t know where this was going, we were watching horror stories from Italy, they obviously took precautions, but for people to claim he wasn’t ill, they’ll be claiming mans never been to the moon next

All stems from the Independence movement that is built on hatred, fed by the SNP hierarchy.

[noahrab]

As tories go, I actually prefer Boris to Cameron and may, cud never vote for them tho. 

Why?

[grantzer]

I can only see data for up to 2019.

In 2019 the number of suicides reported in Scotland was 833, in 2018 it was 784 an increase of 5.9% in 2019 over 2018 - this is under something called the 'New Coding Rules'. I've no idea what the coding rules are.

The five year rolling average for suicides up to 2015 was 776, for 2016 it was 744, for 2017 it was 714, for 2018 it was 712 and for 2019 it was 739.4 - does that really say suicide rate isn't increasing? These are the stats after all and they tell me the rate seemed to drop off up until 2019 when there was a fairly significant increase. What happened in 2019 to cause this jump? Will that same thing cause another increase in 2020? I rather think it will, in fact I think it'll be significantly worse with the added stress of Covid.

Can you show me where I can find the published information to back your statement that the suicide rate isn't increasing? I'm genuinely interested. NRS website doesn't seem to have any 2020 data yet so for now let's just say the rate's on the up.

Nevertheless, a reasonably consistent picture is beginning to emerge from high income countries. Reports suggest either no rise in suicide rates (Massachusetts, USA11; Victoria, Australia13; England14) or a fall (Japan,9 Norway15) in the early months of the pandemic.
That's from the bmj

[eric_sinclair]

Why?

Cameron took off when brexit vote went pear shaped and I think may was indesisive. Boris at least has a bit about him.
As for the tory party, I've always saw them as a party more interested in Middle class England and didna relate to me as a working class scout. Think they are more for the elite,stopped my support we Labour due to John smiths death and Blair taking over. Ended up voting snp due to the candidate, hopefully sarwar gets Labour back in the game but long road ahead.

[Deeranged]

Nevertheless, a reasonably consistent picture is beginning to emerge from high income countries. Reports suggest either no rise in suicide rates (Massachusetts, USA11; Victoria, Australia13; England14) or a fall (Japan,9 Norway15) in the early months of the pandemic.
That's from the bmj

Means nothing with respect. That's not Scotland and the numbers do not compare with the five year rolling average that's showing a significant increase in this country last year.

What are the figures of 11, 13 and 14? Is this numbers per 100,000? I can see the following from the ONS mind - doesn't suggest an increase in Engurlandshire but also gives a reason why the figures might be low in Q2 (interesting) and why they might be significantly higher in Q3 -

'Provisional data show there were 10.7 suicide deaths per 100,000 people in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2020 in England, equivalent to 1,334 deaths registered; this rate is similar to rates seen in the third quarter of previous years.

In the provisional Quarter 3 2020 data, there were 16.3 deaths per 100,000 males (992 deaths registered) and 5.4 suicide deaths per 100,000 females (342 deaths registered); these rates are similar to rates observed in the same quarter in previous years.

Whilst the provisional rates observed in Quarter 3 2020 for men and women are statistically significantly higher compared with Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2020, this is because of the lower number of suicides registered in Quarter 2 that have subsequently been registered in Quarter 3.

The lower number of suicides registered in Quarter 2 2020 is likely to be caused by the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic having an impact on the coroner's service resulting in delays to inquests.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/quarterlysuicidedeathregistrationsinengland/2001to2019registrationsandquarter1jantomartoquarte r3julytosept2020provisionaldata#:~:text=Provisiona l%20data%20show%20there%20were,third%20quarter%20o f%20previous%20years.

[noahrab]

Cameron took off when brexit vote went pear shaped and I think may was indesisive. Boris at least has a bit about him.
As for the tory party, I've always saw them as a party more interested in Middle class England and didna relate to me as a working class scout. Think they are more for the elite,stopped my support we Labour due to John smiths death and Blair taking over. Ended up voting snp due to the candidate, hopefully sarwar gets Labour back in the game but long road ahead.


Cameron did what any decent leader does when it went against them, resign. Salmond did the same. Compare and contrast when Sturgeon lost 21 MP’s at a GE.

Like them or not, they didn’t desert the people of the country over the last year, hardly elitist.

Voting SNP, or any political party but particularly the SNP, because of the candidate is a cop out.

The SNP aren’t allowed to have a different opinion from the party line.

It used to be said that Labour could put a monkey up for election in some constituencies and it would get elected.

We have that with the SNP, without exception.

[eric_sinclair]

Cameron did what any decent leader does when it went against them, resign. Salmond did the same. Compare and contrast when Sturgeon lost 21 MP’s at a GE.

Like them or not, they didn’t desert the people of the country over the last year, hardly elitist.

Voting SNP, or any political party but particularly the SNP, because of the candidate is a cop out.

The SNP aren’t allowed to have a different opinion from the party line.

It used to be said that Labour could put a monkey up for election in some constituencies and it would get elected.

We have that with the SNP, without exception.

Absolute nonsense, you have no idea what the candidate did for my family. The then Labour my did nothing. I will vote for who I want and it ain't no cop out.

[jdfc]

Cameron took off when brexit vote went pear shaped and I think may was indesisive. Boris at least has a bit about him.
As for the tory party, I've always saw them as a party more interested in Middle class England and didna relate to me as a working class scout. Think they are more for the elite,stopped my support we Labour due to John smiths death and Blair taking over. Ended up voting snp due to the candidate, hopefully sarwar gets Labour back in the game but long road ahead.

We should never forget, if it wasn’t for the SNP backing we would never have had Thatcher, this seems to be forgotten in time

[Returnofrros]

Grateful for what Maggie did for me and mine.

[Returnofrros]

all lies, why?

Lowest vaccinated, most cases per head, toughest restrictions in Britain.

****ing own it, you vote for it.😎

[grantzer]

Means nothing with respect. That's not Scotland and the numbers do not compare with the five year rolling average that's showing a significant increase in this country last year.

What are the figures of 11, 13 and 14? Is this numbers per 100,000? I can see the following from the ONS mind - doesn't suggest an increase in Engurlandshire but also gives a reason why the figures might be low in Q2 (interesting) and why they might be significantly higher in Q3 -

'Provisional data show there were 10.7 suicide deaths per 100,000 people in Quarter 3 (July to Sept) 2020 in England, equivalent to 1,334 deaths registered; this rate is similar to rates seen in the third quarter of previous years.

In the provisional Quarter 3 2020 data, there were 16.3 deaths per 100,000 males (992 deaths registered) and 5.4 suicide deaths per 100,000 females (342 deaths registered); these rates are similar to rates observed in the same quarter in previous years.

Whilst the provisional rates observed in Quarter 3 2020 for men and women are statistically significantly higher compared with Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2020, this is because of the lower number of suicides registered in Quarter 2 that have subsequently been registered in Quarter 3.

The lower number of suicides registered in Quarter 2 2020 is likely to be caused by the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic having an impact on the coroner's service resulting in delays to inquests.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/quarterlysuicidedeathregistrationsinengland/2001to2019registrationsandquarter1jantomartoquarte r3julytosept2020provisionaldata#:~:text=Provisiona l%20data%20show%20there%20were,third%20quarter%20o f%20previous%20years.

The small numbers refer to references,and the article collates data from a lot of countries. It would be reasonable to assume that if suicide rates had not gone up in 20 prosperous countries,Scotland is likely to follow that trend. If not,it is also reasonable to assume that the number Eason for that would be non covid related

[Returnofrros]

Couple of weeks since hospitality opened......where's the mass increases in cases?

Where's the UK govt money the SNP have symphoned off?

Nowhere to be seen.

[noahrab]

We should never forget, if it wasn’t for the SNP backing we would never have had Thatcher, this seems to be forgotten in time

An uncomfortable truth.

[noahrab]

Absolute nonsense, you have no idea what the candidate did for my family. The then Labour my did nothing. I will vote for who I want and it ain't no cop out.

Everyone votes for who they want, the reasoning is the key thing.

[Deeranged]

All the claims of the SNP letting Thatcher in are complete nonsense – Thatcher was going to get in within six months regardless as the minority Labour government had been struggling for some time, a general election was inevitable and Labour were always getting trampled on by the Conservatives. It was the anti-devolution Labour MPs, who undermined their own government and prevented the majority Scottish opinion from prevailing, that caused the SNP to turn against Labour. And the SNP was quite right to turn against Labour at that point in my opinion and that's even considering in hindsight the ultimate evil and anti Scottish / pro SE England policies of Thatcherism.

Remember Scotland had just been shafted by the Labour government when a 40% rule appeared from nowhere to deny the wish of the Scottish people at the time when a clear majority 'YES' vote for devolution was cast. What were they going to do? 51.6% of the votes were for devolution but it counted for nothing - completely undemocratic but then we are talking about the English so maybe not a total surprise.

Two Ulster Unionist MPs voted with the 1979 vote of no confidence, did the Ulster Unionist Party also 'cause' the downfall of the Labour government and therefore Thatcher to be elected? Or doesn't that fit the agenda?

People love to re-write history though and they just love to post up rubbish on forums in the hope that people will just accept it as truth - and the more gullible reader usually just agrees with it.

[jdfc]

All the claims of the SNP letting Thatcher in are complete nonsense – Thatcher was going to get in within six months regardless as the minority Labour government had been struggling for some time, a general election was inevitable and Labour were always getting trampled on by the Conservatives. It was the anti-devolution Labour MPs, who undermined their own government and prevented the majority Scottish opinion from prevailing, that caused the SNP to turn against Labour. And the SNP was quite right to turn against Labour at that point in my opinion and that's even considering in hindsight the ultimate evil and anti Scottish / pro SE England policies of Thatcherism.

Remember Scotland had just been shafted by the Labour government when a 40% rule appeared from nowhere to deny the wish of the Scottish people at the time when a clear majority 'YES' vote for devolution was cast. What were they going to do? 51.6% of the votes were for devolution but it counted for nothing - completely undemocratic but then we are talking about the English so maybe not a total surprise.

Two Ulster Unionist MPs voted with the 1979 vote of no confidence, did the Ulster Unionist Party also 'cause' the downfall of the Labour government and therefore Thatcher to be elected? Or doesn't that fit the agenda?

People love to re-write history though and they just love to post up rubbish on forums in the hope that people will just accept it as truth - and the more gullible reader usually just agrees with it.

Simple question, did the SNP side with the Tories ? Yes, and we also need to remember they were derived from Scottish Tories

[Deeranged]

Simple question, did the SNP side with the Tories ? Yes, and we also need to remember they were derived from Scottish Tories

No, they didn't side with the Tories. They voted no confidence in a Labour minority government that was on its knees; the same Labour government that had shafted them earlier that year.

That vote was not a vote for one party or another it was a vote of no confidence in the incumbent government. A massive, massive difference.

Not really interested in where the SNP were derived from. We're all derived from apes but we consider ourselves to be a bit different in evolutionary terms from apes do we not?

[Returnofrros]

Simple question, did the SNP side with the Tories ? Yes, and we also need to remember they were derived from Scottish Tories

Austrian Nazis I heard.

[Returnofrros]

No, they didn't side with the Tories. They voted no confidence in a Labour minority government that was on its knees; the same Labour government that had shafted them earlier that year.

That vote was not a vote for one party or another it was a vote of no confidence in the incumbent government. A massive, massive difference.

Not really interested in where the SNP were derived from. We're all derived from apes but we consider ourselves to be a bit different in evolutionary terms from apes do we not?

Oh ffs, if you had said dinosaurs instead of apes I was here for the day and cancelling the golf.

You'll never know how good this thread cuda got.🤣.........

C'mon j......you know you want to.😁

[BCram]

All the claims of the SNP letting Thatcher in are complete nonsense – Thatcher was going to get in within six months regardless as the minority Labour government had been struggling for some time, a general election was inevitable and Labour were always getting trampled on by the Conservatives. It was the anti-devolution Labour MPs, who undermined their own government and prevented the majority Scottish opinion from prevailing, that caused the SNP to turn against Labour. And the SNP was quite right to turn against Labour at that point in my opinion and that's even considering in hindsight the ultimate evil and anti Scottish / pro SE England policies of Thatcherism.

Remember Scotland had just been shafted by the Labour government when a 40% rule appeared from nowhere to deny the wish of the Scottish people at the time when a clear majority 'YES' vote for devolution was cast. What were they going to do? 51.6% of the votes were for devolution but it counted for nothing - completely undemocratic but then we are talking about the English so maybe not a total surprise.

Two Ulster Unionist MPs voted with the 1979 vote of no confidence, did the Ulster Unionist Party also 'cause' the downfall of the Labour government and therefore Thatcher to be elected? Or doesn't that fit the agenda?

People love to re-write history though and they just love to post up rubbish on forums in the hope that people will just accept it as truth - and the more gullible reader usually just agrees with it.

That's the point of being a Unionist yes, they helped the Conservatives but as you explained it was the SNP who turned against Labour. The other parties had been voting against Labour as part of the opposition. The SNP changed their support and the rest is history.

You may not like to recall your Tartan Tory roots but it seems obvious that they were getting Tory protest votes against the long years of Labour rule in Scotland under Gordon Wilson. It was a shrewd move by the SNP and undermined the Tory Party in Scotland.

[Deeranged]

Oh ffs, if you had said dinosaurs instead of apes I was here for the day and cancelling the golf.

You'll never know how good this thread cuda got.🤣.........

C'mon j......you know you want to.😁

I had to get to work, some of us still have to because we didn't get the opporchancity to jump on Maggie's boat back in 1979 >;)

[Deeranged]

That's the point of being a Unionist yes, they helped the Conservatives but as you explained it was the SNP who turned against Labour. The other parties had been voting against Labour as part of the opposition. The SNP changed their support and the rest is history.

You may not like to recall your Tartan Tory roots but it seems obvious that they were getting Tory protest votes against the long years of Labour rule in Scotland under Gordon Wilson. It was a shrewd move by the SNP and undermined the Tory Party in Scotland.

My main argument is that turning against one party isn't necessarily supporting the other. Yes, they helped bring down Labour but having been treated the way they had been by Labour It's no surprise they did what they did.

[noahrab]

No, they didn't side with the Tories. They voted no confidence in a Labour minority government that was on its knees; the same Labour government that had shafted them earlier that year.

That vote was not a vote for one party or another it was a vote of no confidence in the incumbent government. A massive, massive difference.

Not really interested in where the SNP were derived from. We're all derived from apes but we consider ourselves to be a bit different in evolutionary terms from apes do we not?


They voted with a Tory motion.

An uncomfortable truth.

[noahrab]

That's the point of being a Unionist yes, they helped the Conservatives but as you explained it was the SNP who turned against Labour. The other parties had been voting against Labour as part of the opposition. The SNP changed their support and the rest is history.

You may not like to recall your Tartan Tory roots but it seems obvious that they were getting Tory protest votes against the long years of Labour rule in Scotland under Gordon Wilson. It was a shrewd move by the SNP and undermined the Tory Party in Scotland.

The Nationalists have been trying to airbrush that vote away for years.

Still trying I see.

[BCram]

[QUOTE=Deeranged;39773674]My main argument is that turning against one party isn't necessarily supporting the other. Yes, they helped bring down Labour but having been treated the way they had been by Labour It's no surprise they did what did.

It is the way that the SNP operate though. They pillory Labour and the Lib Democrats at every opportunity for being on the same side of any argument as the Conservatives. Labour and the others oppose Conservative policies all the time but the SNP would have you believe they represent the same political ideas. It is quite depressing how everything comes down to independence.

[grantzer]

[QUOTE=Deeranged;39773674]My main argument is that turning against one party isn't necessarily supporting the other. Yes, they helped bring down Labour but having been treated the way they had been by Labour It's no surprise they did what did.

It is the way that the SNP operate though. They pillory Labour and the Lib Democrats at every opportunity for being on the same side of any argument as the Conservatives. Labour and the others oppose Conservative policies all the time but the SNP would have you believe they represent the same political ideas. It is quite depressing how everything comes down to independence.

My letterbox has been bombarded in the last few weeks with leaflets from all parties. Every main party except one was focussed on independence. The only one that never mentioned it was the SNP.......

[Deeranged]

[QUOTE=BCram;39773797]

My letterbox has been bombarded in the last few weeks with leaflets from all parties. Every main party except one was focussed on independence. The only one that never mentioned it was the SNP.......

That's because the big English parties are cacking it, more concerned about stopping the SNP's march toward independence than pushing themselves forward. Not one of them was able to present one policy that would help Scotland, not a single one.

Indyref 2 is coming and I've a feeling it'll be the right result this time.

>:)

[BCram]

As long as the referendum asks do you want independence , Yes or No being the options for answering, I will be content. Keep the politicians out of any interpretation and let the people decide. 50% of 70% is 35% of the electorate, so maybe the right result is still NO!

O:)

[Deeranged]

50% of 70% is 35% of the electorate, so maybe the right result is still NO!

O:)

That's the type of thinking that did for Callaghan's government.

[BCram]

That's the type of thinking that did for Callaghan's government.

Exactly. Funny, I think both sides of the argument have good points to make. Makes a difference how you decide to vote when you know you have to vote for what you want, rather voting to stop what you don't want.

[islaydarkblue]

Exactly. Funny, I think both sides of the argument have good points to make. Makes a difference how you decide to vote when you know you have to vote for what you want, rather voting to stop what you don't want.
About four years I sent an email to my MP Brendan O’Hara who is the SNP MP for Argyll and Bute asking him what he would do if Scotland became an independent country as he would lose his seat at Westminster.
He replied “We voted as a group in favour of Scotland becoming an independent country”.
Therefore the SNP MPs at Westminster have to do as their leader instructs even if it means losing their job.

[BCram]

Islay, if you doubt the wisdom of independence, like me, all you can do is ask questions and evaluate the answers. That applies to both sides. Being confrontational seems , to me to be unlikely to change opinions, either way. It will be interesting to see what the final voting totals are forthe different parties. I suspect the SNP vote will be roughly similar to what it has been for years but there will be a bit of a drop for the Conservatives and Lib Dems and a boost for Labour and the Greens.

[Deeranged]

About four years I sent an email to my MP Brendan O’Hara who is the SNP MP for Argyll and Bute asking him what he would do if Scotland became an independent country as he would lose his seat at Westminster.
He replied “We voted as a group in favour of Scotland becoming an independent country”.
Therefore the SNP MPs at Westminster have to do as their leader instructs even if it means losing their job.

No, they comply with party policy they don't do as their leader tells them. The ultimate aim of the SNP is to achieve independence from England's United Kingdom - that's been the aim since its inception. Obviously if Scotland becomes independent it has to surrender its seats in the UK government. That's the way it would have to be and not Sturgeon's order.

Sturgeon isn't only leader of the SNP in Holyrood, she's leader of the SNP. The SNP MPs in Westminster are members of the same SNP that SNP MSPs are members of and they have the same leader. So Westminster MPs have to toe the party line. That's not massively different from the linesman trying to get into Holyrood, he's leader of the scummy Tories in Scotland, and will become an MSP without even trying, however he's still a member of the scummy Conservative party led by the incompetent puppet Boris Johnson.

It's not difficult to understand.

[jdfc]

No, they comply with party policy they don't do as their leader tells them. The ultimate aim of the SNP is to achieve independence from England's United Kingdom - that's been the aim since its inception. Obviously if Scotland becomes independent it has to surrender its seats in the UK government. That's the way it would have to be and not Sturgeon's order.

Sturgeon isn't only leader of the SNP in Holyrood, she's leader of the SNP. The SNP MPs in Westminster are members of the same SNP that SNP MSPs are members of and they have the same leader. So Westminster MPs have to toe the party line. That's not massively different from the linesman trying to get into Holyrood, he's leader of the scummy Tories in Scotland, and will become an MSP without even trying, however he's still a member of the scummy Conservative party led by the incompetent puppet Boris Johnson.

It's not difficult to understand.

Deeranged, what do you think independence will mean for Scotland, and I’m not looking for the normal nonsense, “we will be free from Westminster, we will control our own taxes, we won’t be subsiding the UK”, I’m looking for benefits for each individual, job benefits etc, it’s a genuine question not one to trick you or an argument, I am really struggling to think of any benefits we will see in my lifetime, and selfishly I couldn’t care less about life after I’ve gone

[noahrab]

Deeranged, what do you think independence will mean for Scotland, and I’m not looking for the normal nonsense, “we will be free from Westminster, we will control our own taxes, we won’t be subsiding the UK”, I’m looking for benefits for each individual, job benefits etc, it’s a genuine question not one to trick you or an argument, I am really struggling to think of any benefits we will see in my lifetime, and selfishly I couldn’t care less about life after I’ve gone


Controlling the economic levers.

No one has our resources.

Norway.

[noahrab]

No, they comply with party policy they don't do as their leader tells them. The ultimate aim of the SNP is to achieve independence from England's United Kingdom - that's been the aim since its inception. Obviously if Scotland becomes independent it has to surrender its seats in the UK government. That's the way it would have to be and not Sturgeon's order.

Sturgeon isn't only leader of the SNP in Holyrood, she's leader of the SNP. The SNP MPs in Westminster are members of the same SNP that SNP MSPs are members of and they have the same leader. So Westminster MPs have to toe the party line. That's not massively different from the linesman trying to get into Holyrood, he's leader of the scummy Tories in Scotland, and will become an MSP without even trying, however he's still a member of the scummy Conservative party led by the incompetent puppet Boris Johnson.

It's not difficult to understand.

The SNP do as they’re told. Every time without exception.

Plenty rebels in Labour and Conservative party.

They allow and encourage free thought.

You have to laugh when the SNP go on about ‘branch offices’ when everything they do or say is passed down from Murrel towers.

[Deeranged]

Deeranged, what do you think independence will mean for Scotland, and I’m not looking for the normal nonsense, “we will be free from Westminster, we will control our own taxes, we won’t be subsiding the UK”, I’m looking for benefits for each individual, job benefits etc, it’s a genuine question not one to trick you or an argument, I am really struggling to think of any benefits we will see in my lifetime, and selfishly I couldn’t care less about life after I’ve gone

I'd throw that question right back at you. Why do you think we will be so massively worse off if we were being led by a corrupt Scottish government rather than a corrupt UK one?

I just want Scotland to be recognised as a free and independent country in my lifetime, ideally a republic because I dislike one family having so much wealth and influence whilst effectively doing nothing but existing. I genuinely don't see independence having a massive effect on the individual in the short to medium term (higher earners might need to pay more tax) however longer term I think the individual will benefit from the greater autonomy the nation will have in trade dealings internationally. My hope is that we'd become a more prosperous country or at least be as prosperous as we are now. I've never argued that I know how to achieve that, I leave that to the people that know how to.

My experiences working in England with mostly English but also Scottish, Irish and Welsh counterparts has shaped my thinking about England massively. The constant feeling of superiority that the English demonstrate at close quarters with people of the other UK nations is shocking, and it runs through their entire nation. This affects other nationalities too, the English firmly believe England is superior to all nations. They are a nation that believes England should be for the English and nobody else is welcome.

One thing I will say is that I've not seen too much of that attitude from English people settled here in Scotland, in fact I know plenty that would welcome an independent Scotland. I've said in the past that a good friend of mine who was a Professor of Economics at St. Andrews University was absolutely of the opinion that Scotland would be better off outside of the union - and he was English.

[Deeranged]

The SNP do as they’re told. Every time without exception.

Plenty rebels in Labour and Conservative party.

They allow and encourage free thought.

You have to laugh when the SNP go on about ‘branch offices’ when everything they do or say is passed down from Murrel towers.

Infighting good

Unity of purpose bad

Class

[eric_sinclair]

Deeranged, what do you think independence will mean for Scotland, and I’m not looking for the normal nonsense, “we will be free from Westminster, we will control our own taxes, we won’t be subsiding the UK”, I’m looking for benefits for each individual, job benefits etc, it’s a genuine question not one to trick you or an argument, I am really struggling to think of any benefits we will see in my lifetime, and selfishly I couldn’t care less about life after I’ve gone

Mibbe Wales will leave first, what happens then.
The bit I can't get my head around is anyone thinking we can't run our own country.
Of course it wud take time but why the hell not?
I'm pretty chilled either way if it happens great if no life goes on.
Benefits I see is make our own decisions good and bad, nae need for war choose our own government to run everything, also being a small country we could even see a new party emerge as imo most we have just now Inc snp are hopeless.
I love going down south, great country and people and will continue to do so.
I vote SNP so we mibbe get a shot at doing it alone, no part oh any cult and only saw braveheart twice.
I respect your opinion poss based on your age and job etc.
Ireland seems a cool place, needed bailed out I know but seems fine now, can we know do the same?
Just a thought

[noahrab]

Infighting good

Unity of purpose bad

Class

Alternative thinking/ideas good.

Dictatorship bad.

Uncomfortable truths.

[Deeranged]

Alternative thinking/ideas good.

Dictatorship bad.

Uncomfortable truths.

OK, I'll bite.

Why isn't the 'alternative thinking / idea' of independence good, when it actually unites a party, whilst some 'alternative thinking / ideas' that cause division in another party are good?

Who's the dictator? It's party policy that the party leader is sticking with and the party is doing what needs to be done to achieve it. Every elected SNP MP and MSP agrees with the policy it's what you call concensus, agreement or accord. Is it dictatorial to see a target and aim for it? Or does it show commitment to a cause?

There's no dictator and there's no cult.

Uncomfortable truth?

[jdfc]

I'd throw that question right back at you. Why do you think we will be so massively worse off if we were being led by a corrupt Scottish government rather than a corrupt UK one?

I just want Scotland to be recognised as a free and independent country in my lifetime, ideally a republic because I dislike one family having so much wealth and influence whilst effectively doing nothing but existing. I genuinely don't see independence having a massive effect on the individual in the short to medium term (higher earners might need to pay more tax) however longer term I think the individual will benefit from the greater autonomy the nation will have in trade dealings internationally. My hope is that we'd become a more prosperous country or at least be as prosperous as we are now. I've never argued that I know how to achieve that, I leave that to the people that know how to.

My experiences working in England with mostly English but also Scottish, Irish and Welsh counterparts has shaped my thinking about England massively. The constant feeling of superiority that the English demonstrate at close quarters with people of the other UK nations is shocking, and it runs through their entire nation. This affects other nationalities too, the English firmly believe England is superior to all nations. They are a nation that believes England should be for the English and nobody else is welcome.

One thing I will say is that I've not seen too much of that attitude from English people settled here in Scotland, in fact I know plenty that would welcome an independent Scotland. I've said in the past that a good friend of mine who was a Professor of Economics at St. Andrews University was absolutely of the opinion that Scotland would be better off outside of the union - and he was English.
I see a hard border, making travel harder, I see tax rises, higher tariffs added to exports, I fear for my job and many other jobs in Scotland from English owned or based companies

[Deeranged]

I see a hard border, making travel harder, I see tax rises, higher tariffs added to exports, I fear for my job and many other jobs in Scotland from English owned or based companies

Understandable fears, we just don't know for certain.

We all fear the unknown but it takes a little bit of bravery to overcome those fears and once you're over them you can look back and wonder what you were ever worried about.

[jdfc]

Mibbe Wales will leave first, what happens then.
The bit I can't get my head around is anyone thinking we can't run our own country.
Of course it wud take time but why the hell not?
I'm pretty chilled either way if it happens great if no life goes on.
Benefits I see is make our own decisions good and bad, nae need for war choose our own government to run everything, also being a small country we could even see a new party emerge as imo most we have just now Inc snp are hopeless.
I love going down south, great country and people and will continue to do so.
I vote SNP so we mibbe get a shot at doing it alone, no part oh any cult and only saw braveheart twice.
I respect your opinion poss based on your age and job etc.
Ireland seems a cool place, needed bailed out I know but seems fine now, can we know do the same?
Just a thought

Ireland cool, gave you been to Dublin, one of the most expensive places I’ve been,

War ? who are we at war with, we will always need to defend what’s ours, so can’t rule that out, EU through NATO supported Iraq invasions so we’d be part of that

We don’t have our own monetary system so will be controlled by Bank of England or the EU with the euro

This isn’t something that we can turn around a few years down the line if it’s no working, can’t just ask to go back, if you live comfy just now why would you want to gamble it, I know there is plenty poverty in Scotland but the SNP have had 14 years to sort it along with the drug problems, but they’d rather blame Westminster and take the plaudits for free bus passes and prescriptions, which I just don’t get, they hand a 60 year old in full employment free travel, when kids are going hungry, I’d put a £3 fee on prescriptions for employed people, unless the medicine was for life threatening illnesses or life lasting illnesses

[eric_sinclair]

Ireland cool, gave you been to Dublin, one of the most expensive places I’ve been,

War ? who are we at war with, we will always need to defend what’s ours, so can’t rule that out, EU through NATO supported Iraq invasions so we’d be part of that

We don’t have our own monetary system so will be controlled by Bank of England or the EU with the euro

This isn’t something that we can turn around a few years down the line if it’s no working, can’t just ask to go back, if you live comfy just now why would you want to gamble it, I know there is plenty poverty in Scotland but the SNP have had 14 years to sort it along with the drug problems, but they’d rather blame Westminster and take the plaudits for free bus passes and prescriptions, which I just don’t get, they hand a 60 year old in full employment free travel, when kids are going hungry, I’d put a £3 fee on prescriptions for employed people, unless the medicine was for life threatening illnesses or life lasting illnesses

Nae free travel for over 60, s and charge for prescriptions to help poverty, good idea imo and agree the snp need to do better.
Nae trident and nae following the USA into unnecessary wars was my point.
The monetary issue wud need adressesd of course.
Yes it wud be a gamble and I do get your point regarding your job but I thought my job was in doubt due to brexit but its not in doubt at all.
As deranged said sometimes a bit of bravery is needed to make change.

[Deeranged]

Nae free travel for over 60, s and charge for prescriptions to help poverty, good idea imo and agree the snp need to do better.
Nae trident and nae following the USA into unnecessary wars was my point.
The monetary issue wud need adressesd of course.
Yes it wud be a gamble and I do get your point regarding your job but I thought my job was in doubt due to brexit but its not in doubt at all.
As deranged said sometimes a bit of bravery is needed to make change.

I feared for my job as a result of Brexit, I work for a French / American multinational company, but all it's meant in reality is a few more forms to fill out and hoops to jump through to import / export. Being non EU hasn't made any other difference to my work and in fact the forecast increase in orders for 2022 has already started biting now that people have realised the feared restrictions and delays haven't really materialised. That means more jobs rather than fewer jobs.

I'd see independence going the same way, fear and trepidation going into it followed by realisation that at the individual on the street level there's no noticeable change.

I also agree with removing free bus passes for over 60s, in fact I believe all concessions for older people should be removed, and free prescriptions for those that are not chronically ill should also be removed - subsidised yes, but free no.

[jdfc]

Nae free travel for over 60, s and charge for prescriptions to help poverty, good idea imo and agree the snp need to do better.
Nae trident and nae following the USA into unnecessary wars was my point.
The monetary issue wud need adressesd of course.
Yes it wud be a gamble and I do get your point regarding your job but I thought my job was in doubt due to brexit but its not in doubt at all.
As deranged said sometimes a bit of bravery is needed to make change.

Remove trident from Scotland removes around 6000 jobs, if they moved it to England or N Ireland, would make no difference to us if someone pushed the button we all fry

[Deeranged]

Remove trident from Scotland removes around 6000 jobs, if they moved it to England or N Ireland, would make no difference to us if someone pushed the button we all fry

How many jobs did the decimation of the mining and steel industries in Scotland cost? Can you remember the guys on TV outside the mines and mills saying that was them on the scrapheap because it was all they knew and wondered where they could go from there? Timex and jute mills were the same, people thinking that was it because it was all they'd known but they got other jobs. Michelin, same.

Did we find other industries to replace those jobs and did we recover?

It always looks bleak when it's framed as so many thousand jobs to be lost but people adapt and look back on it and wonder what the panic was. I did that when the place I was an apprentice closed. What skills did I have that people would want? Had the same thoughts when I left the RAF, when I look back now I consider that to be the best thing that ever happened to me. What hope was there for me at those points in my life? Went straight into work both times and have never been unemployed in over 40 years.

You're right about if the bomb drops though, whether Trident's in Scotland or moved to England we're all ****ed.

[BCram]

Heard an interesting comment explaining why Welsh Labour is doing better than Plaid Cmry. They are actually trying to make decisions option work. Why can't the Scottish Labour Party take the same approach at Holyrood? If the Scottish politicians actually tried to work together to make Holyrood an effective force maybe the SNP grievance approach would be seen for what it is, a step on the road to independence. I am hopeful that the Greens will refuse to join the SNP in governing Scotland and perhaps we might see effective action taken on education, ferries, rail and public transport.

[jdfc]

How many jobs did the decimation of the mining and steel industries in Scotland cost? Can you remember the guys on TV outside the mines and mills saying that was them on the scrapheap because it was all they knew and wondered where they could go from there? Timex and jute mills were the same, people thinking that was it because it was all they'd known but they got other jobs. Michelin, same.

Did we find other industries to replace those jobs and did we recover?

It always looks bleak when it's framed as so many thousand jobs to be lost but people adapt and look back on it and wonder what the panic was. I did that when the place I was an apprentice closed. What skills did I have that people would want? Had the same thoughts when I left the RAF, when I look back now I consider that to be the best thing that ever happened to me. What hope was there for me at those points in my life? Went straight into work both times and have never been unemployed in over 40 years.

You're right about if the bomb drops though, whether Trident's in Scotland or moved to England we're all ****ed.
I really don’t think Dundee has recovered from the lose of companies like NCR, Levi’s, Timex etc, people have found other employment but not to the same wage level in many cases, our biggest employers these days are call centres

[Deeranged]

Heard an interesting comment explaining why Welsh Labour is doing better than Plaid Cmry. They are actually trying to make decisions option work. Why can't the Scottish Labour Party take the same approach at Holyrood? If the Scottish politicians actually tried to work together to make Holyrood an effective force maybe the SNP grievance approach would be seen for what it is, a step on the road to independence. I am hopeful that the Greens will refuse to join the SNP in governing Scotland and perhaps we might see effective action taken on education, ferries, rail and public transport.

Labour is doing well in Wales because Wales is a traditional Labour heartland and Plaid Cymru hasn't pushed its independence agenda as aggressively as it might; it probably isn't even that serious about independence. Obviously it doesn't help Plaid Cymru that there's no real stomach for independence in Wales which is essentially just an English annex. Scotland was a traditional Labour heartland of course but the SNP drive for independence has steamrolled Labour out the way.

I think if Scotland was to gain independence there might be a swing away from Labour in Wales toward Plaid Cymru. Whether there are enough Welsh people left with sufficient nationalistic feeling to swing independence is doubtful for me.

[Deeranged]

I really don’t think Dundee has recovered from the lose of companies like NCR, Levi’s, Timex etc, people have found other employment but not to the same wage level in many cases, our biggest employers these days are call centres

But they found jobs?

I agree that a lot of people might have taken a step down in earnings but by the same token as many will have found work at the same level of or even higher earnings, it would be the same for the 6,000 you quote if Trident was to go.

A job in a call centre is no less worthy of being called a job than the job of furnaceman in a smelter, face worker in a mine or assembler at Timex.

[Returnofrros]

[QUOTE=BCram;39773797]

My letterbox has been bombarded in the last few weeks with leaflets from all parties. Every main party except one was focussed on independence. The only one that never mentioned it was the SNP.......

Lol, that didnae last long.