O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

[Robertomac]

Sorry if this has already been discussed on another thread - thought i'd already seen it discussed but couldn't find it. Anyone any idea if this will come into force. I note Boris says outdoor venues with more than 10,000 people which would not affect us normally, but technically the venue is capable of holding more than 10,000 and so does that change the approach?

The next question is if the Covid pass is required, under 16s are not able to get them at the moment so presume they would be exempt? My two boys are both under 16 and season ticket holders.

Anyone got any ideas?

Finally, I cannot tell you how sick to death I am of this. I know everyone has different views depending on their age and how they've been affected by the pandemic, but my personal view is we can't carry on like this. I've had enough.

[upthemaggies]

Sorry if this has already been discussed on another thread - thought i'd already seen it discussed but couldn't find it. Anyone any idea if this will come into force. I note Boris says outdoor venues with more than 10,000 people which would not affect us normally, but technically the venue is capable of holding more than 10,000 and so does that change the approach?

The next question is if the Covid pass is required, under 16s are not able to get them at the moment so presume they would be exempt? My two boys are both under 16 and season ticket holders.

Anyone got any ideas?

Finally, I cannot tell you how sick to death I am of this. I know everyone has different views depending on their age and how they've been affected by the pandemic, but my personal view is we can't carry on like this. I've had enough.

So long as people comply it will continue and will only get worse.

[maddogslater]

It's here to stay though, fcuking CCP

[BigFatPie]

Sorry if this has already been discussed on another thread - thought i'd already seen it discussed but couldn't find it. Anyone any idea if this will come into force. I note Boris says outdoor venues with more than 10,000 people which would not affect us normally, but technically the venue is capable of holding more than 10,000 and so does that change the approach?

The next question is if the Covid pass is required, under 16s are not able to get them at the moment so presume they would be exempt? My two boys are both under 16 and season ticket holders.

Anyone got any ideas?

Finally, I cannot tell you how sick to death I am of this. I know everyone has different views depending on their age and how they've been affected by the pandemic, but my personal view is we can't carry on like this. I've had enough.

I’m in a similar boat, but apparently a negative lateral flow test will be enough.

[Bushwacka]

BBC News says:
This will include.......unseated outdoor venues with more than 5,000 people and any venue with more than 10,000 people.

Seeing as ours are seated and (usually) under 10,000, it shouldn't affect us but the admin will be a nightmare so they'll probably do it based on capacity.

Had my vaccines so all good.... Can't see it applying to under 18s.

[BanjoPie]

Finally, I cannot tell you how sick to death I am of this. I know everyone has different views depending on their age and how they've been affected by the pandemic, but my personal view is we can't carry on like this. I've had enough.

We all have! - what do suggest we do then?

[BanjoPie]

So long as people comply it will continue and will only get worse.

One of the biggest problems is that too many people don’t comply!

[Old_pie]

We all have! - what do suggest we do then?

Wait for all the anti-vaxers to die. Of every 33 people who die of Covid 32 have not been vaccinated so it shouldn't take long. If you know any refusniks do them a favour and make sure they understand basic risk and reward/penalty.

Even then it just is not going away and the youth of today have my sympathy at their loss of freedoms.

[Robertomac]

We all have! - what do suggest we do then?

Well, I'm not claiming to have the answers, but then nor am I in a position where I'm expected to. My view is let it run. We've done lockdowns which in my view are more widely harmful and ultimately don't work and surely the whole point of vaccination was to allow a return to normality. I hope this new variant is the less virulent strain we've been waiting for.

I know living in a state of continued paralysis isn't doing anyone any good.

[Robertomac]

Had my vaccines so all good.... Can't see it applying to under 18s.

Me too. Hopefully it won't apply to U18s as it has broader consequences for that age group otherwise.

[Elite_Pie]

So long as people comply it will continue and will only get worse.

Well, you need no better example of people not complying with it than those who set the rules!

[BigFatPie]

BBC News says:
This will include.......unseated outdoor venues with more than 5,000 people and any venue with more than 10,000 people.

Seeing as ours are seated and (usually) under 10,000, it shouldn't affect us but the admin will be a nightmare so they'll probably do it based on capacity.

Had my vaccines so all good.... Can't see it applying to under 18s.

Happy to be corrected, but I haven’t seen it anywhere that u 18s won’t be included.

[Notts78]

Happy to be corrected, but I haven’t seen it anywhere that u 18s won’t be included.

They won’t be. It would be unfair on children who are not eligible for the COVID jabs when under 16 to be penalised for not having a COVID passport.

[SwalePie]

According to the Red Andrex...

"The new guidelines will apply to venues with a capacity in excess of 10,000, meaning those attending upcoming matches at the City Ground and Meadow Lane will need to show proof of double vaccination or a negative lateral flow test."

https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/football-news/boris-johnson-nottingham-forest-county-6323661 (https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/football-news/boris-johnson-nottingham-forest-county-6323661)

[optipez]

We all have! - what do suggest we do then?

Carry on as we were two weeks ago. Not a single death worldwide from Omicron. Complete overreaction, entirely political.

[BigFatPie]

They won’t be. It would be unfair on children who are not eligible for the COVID jabs when under 16 to be penalised for not having a COVID passport.

As I said above, they’ll have to produce evidence of a negative lateral flow test. It was the same for the Euros.

[Robertomac]

Will the 'free' ones from the NHS suffice?

[Robertomac]

Carry on as we were two weeks ago. Not a single death worldwide from Omicron. Complete overreaction, entirely political.

Agree entirely.

[magpie_mania]

Agree entirely.

Do you know that for definite?

[Elite_Pie]

According to the Red Andrex...

"The new guidelines will apply to venues with a capacity in excess of 10,000, meaning those attending upcoming matches at the City Ground and Meadow Lane will need to show proof of double vaccination or a negative lateral flow test."

https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/football-news/boris-johnson-nottingham-forest-county-6323661 (https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/football-news/boris-johnson-nottingham-forest-county-6323661)

In order to make our capacity 9,999 or less, maybe one option for us would be to close the upper Kop, allow no 'on the day' admissions to the Family stand, and limit away fans. Really unfair on ST holders in the upper Kop, but it could be a way around the restrictions. Maybe for the greater good we should abide by the restrictions and take the hit on attendances.

[Notts_Pie]

Firstly I'm not vaccinated. I had covid just after the Solihull game, you know the one with the record breaking attendance... I didn't die. The majority don't and now I have the proper antibodies.

Covid pass makes no sense as the vaxed can still catch covid and can still pass it on, so it's a waste of time and makes me feel something more sinister is occurring and even more determined to avoid that injection.

If I'm refused access with my season ticket on Saturday and going forward, I'll be straight over the to the ticket office claiming my refund. I know its not the clubs fault but out of principle I'm not accepting it.

[Elite_Pie]

Just read the official guidance, which states that passes or tests will be needed for:

Nightclubs
Indoor unseated venues with more than 500 people
Unseated outdoor venues with more than 4,000 people
Any venue with more than 10,000 people

So does that apply to any venue with more than 10,000 people inside, or any venue with the capacity to hold more than 10,000 people?

Unless we do another £5 offer it won't affect us, but it will be a nightmare for clubs who average around 8-12,000.

[upthemaggies]

Firstly I'm not vaccinated. I had covid just after the Solihull game, you know the one with the record breaking attendance... I didn't die. The majority don't and now I have the proper antibodies.

Covid pass makes no sense as the vaxed can still catch covid and can still pass it on, so it's a waste of time and makes me feel something more sinister is occurring and even more determined to avoid that injection.

If I'm refused access with my season ticket on Saturday and going forward, I'll be straight over the to the ticket office claiming my refund. I know its not the clubs fault but out of principle I'm not accepting it.

I fully support your position. Not saying everybody should do the same but everybody has to do what's right for them now. I really am very fearful of what is coming over the next year or two.

[BigFatPie]

Will the 'free' ones from the NHS suffice?

Yes.

[BigFatPie]

Firstly I'm not vaccinated. I had covid just after the Solihull game, you know the one with the record breaking attendance... I didn't die. The majority don't and now I have the proper antibodies.



I don’t know why you haven’t had the vaccine, but no one has claimed everyone dies or even the majority. It is however a highly transmissible disease that makes a minority of people very ill and a smaller minority dead. I don’t know how you know you have ‘proper antibodies’, but even if you have, they will eventually reduce.

The vaccines greatly reduce your chances of passing it on, getting very sick and dying from it. By getting vaccinated you’re helping to protect yourself and others.

[Glad2BeAPie]

Bear in mind that it will probably take a bit longer to get into the ground on Saturday, so arrive a little bit earlier. This will fall on deaf ears as the warning did for the Solihull game where people were moaning they couldn't walk straight in arriving at 10 to 3

[Robertomac]

Yes.

Any idea how you can get the pass then? My understanding is the NHS website produces it when you enter the result, but only if you're over 18.

[Notts78]

Bear in mind that it will probably take a bit longer to get into the ground on Saturday, so arrive a little bit earlier. This will fall on deaf ears as the warning did for the Solihull game where people were moaning they couldn't walk straight in arriving at 10 to 3

Why will it take longer to get in to the ground on Saturday?

[Robertomac]

I really am very fearful of what is coming over the next year or two.

I work in travel and have had approaching two years of unrelenting stress and difficult decisions. It's been awful and just as we were starting to see signs of improvement, we've had the rug pulled from underneath us once more. If things don't improve very soon, the whole industry is in serious trouble.

[LaxtonLad]

Wait for all the anti-vaxers to die. Of every 33 people who die of Covid 32 have not been vaccinated so it shouldn't take long. If you know any refusniks do them a favour and make sure they understand basic risk and reward/penalty.

Even then it just is not going away and the youth of today have my sympathy at their loss of freedoms.

It's nature's way of filtering out the also-rans. I feel sorry for folk who for various medical reasons cannot have the vaccination, but there again it's nature at work, filtering out the less fit. I've no time at all for those who give their religion as a reason for not taking the jab, they are as much a waste of the NHS as those who think they are too brave, and the anti-vaxxers too, brain dead the lot of 'em. Come on nature, do what you're good at!

Please don't think I have no sympathy for the bereaved families left behind but only they know why their loved ones didn't get vaccinated - and they have to live with it.

[BigFatPie]

Any idea how you can get the pass then? My understanding is the NHS website produces it when you enter the result, but only if you're over 18.

My two u 18s get texts to show when they enter a negative result, which was enough previously, so I assume it still is.

[Robertomac]

My two u 18s get texts to show when they enter a negative result, which was enough previously, so I assume it still is.

Thanks, didn't know that was the case so will look at that if necessary. I'm used to Italy where everything is QR code scanners so was anticipating the same here.

[Florida Pie]

I am shocked that a couple of posters, have wished death on people, who have chosen not to get vaccinated. I usually do not comment on the situation in England, as obviously, I'm not living there. I can only put forward what I have experienced and lived through, Florida opened up on May 4th 2020, covid figures have been up and down, same as everywhere. In the last few months Florida has been near the bottom, of the individual States Covid table. We have been living life normally since September 2020 (mask rules lifted). Looking at UK from the outside, it seems that freedom is being challenged by the politicians.

[kill_the_drum]

Today was the final straw for me with trying to comply. It was done by a government trying to deflect headlines from its Christmas party. And the fact they had a Christmas party proves they don’t fear this virus anywhere near as much as they’re trying to make us fear it. The damage we’re doing to our economy, our childrens education, our mental health is so disproportionate to the death rate of Covid it’s unfathomable.
The measures being imposed on us is like finding a wasp in your living room so blowing up your house!
My kids have missed so much school, and for what? They’re not dying. They’re not even getting ill. The mortality rate for anyone under 80 and not suffering with major health issues is negligible. I know of 4 people that have been registered as a Covid death. All four of them were terminally ill. Two of them contracted Covid from going to the hospital to die from cancer. Dying WITH Covid is completely different to dying FROM Covid. Has any virus ever been recorded in this way?
Any loss of life is sad but the cure, IMO is far more damaging than the virus!
And I say all this having had Covid myself (it’s pretty awful) and own a business that has actually done very well from the lockdowns.

[Magpies1959]

I have a covid pass, (so obviously double vaccinated) mainly because we had a holiday booked. The wife had to book lateral flow tests, at £35 each which were never used due to rule changes, while we were away, which forced us to buy PCR 2 day tests at £50 pounds each. Which hadn't arrived inside the two days after returning from holiday, so the wife found out you could get a free PCR test from the Jubilee Campus. As it was, the £50 test kits arrived the day we went to the Campus site, so we took both and they returned negative. What a load of money making bollox.
To return to the start of my post, even though having a covid pass, i.e. double jabbed, I will have to think twice about going as a matter of principle, as it is virtually impossible to catch covid, outdoors let alone being hospitalised.
There is something very sinister attached to all this, just not sure what. I just wish someone/ country/countries had the nuts to call out China for it's actions.

[Magpie68]

5 of us go together, 3 of us not jabbed and 2 double jabbed. We will all stand together and boycott from the first day Passes come in. May seem petty to some but i will not stand for discrimination of any sorts of my mates.

[Lullapie]

I don't know if anyone is interested from a comment from someone in one of the world's most Covid law restrictive countries, but you're all going to be bouncing in and out of restrictions until someone (i.e. the people) say enough is enough.

Many 'down under' are sick to death of being told what to do by their completely out of touch governments, but there are just as many who would be happy to be locked in their homes for the rest of their lives as long as the government (tax payers) pay for it.

The fear that is pushed by the government and the media (where in NZ has had massive financial handouts from the state, as well as the ongoing advertising revenue they receive from the state) is beyond palpable. Many think that if they contract any variant of Covid it is 'instant' death.

But apart from that, it's pretty sunny today ;D

[PedroTheFisherman66]

I have a hamster called Boris so I am exempt from all rules and regulations. I'm having an express BBQ xmas eve your all welcome .Snacks , nibbles music and a topless Secret Santa I would call it a small party but I suppose it could be classed as a business meeting.

[PedroTheFisherman66]

Today was the final straw for me with trying to comply. It was done by a government trying to deflect headlines from its Christmas party. And the fact they had a Christmas party proves they don’t fear this virus anywhere near as much as they’re trying to make us fear it. The damage we’re doing to our economy, our childrens education, our mental health is so disproportionate to the death rate of Covid it’s unfathomable.
The measures being imposed on us is like finding a wasp in your living room so blowing up your house!
My kids have missed so much school, and for what? They’re not dying. They’re not even getting ill. The mortality rate for anyone under 80 and not suffering with major health issues is negligible. I know of 4 people that have been registered as a Covid death. All four of them were terminally ill. Two of them contracted Covid from going to the hospital to die from cancer. Dying WITH Covid is completely different to dying FROM Covid. Has any virus ever been recorded in this way?
Any loss of life is sad but the cure, IMO is far more damaging than the virus!
And I say all this having had Covid myself (it’s pretty awful) and own a business that has actually done very well from the lockdowns.

well said !

[Glad2BeAPie]

Why will it take longer to get in to the ground on Saturday?

My mistake the new rules for football grounds don't come into force till next Wednesday. It may or may not affect games after tho

[PedroTheFisherman66]

My mistake the new rules for football grounds don't come into force till next Wednesday. It may or may not affect games after tho

Masks don't work look at the EU , you can work at home or go into work if you choose ? , it makes you wonder why they rushed plan B out yesterday ? I for one am baffled , now where's my cat !?

[crazyfists]

One of the biggest problems is that too many people don’t comply!

Amen brother. Everyone is sick of it but it is what it is and some people including myself are at extreme risk and will most likely die if I catch it so I hope people respect the restrictions even in light of the incompetent in 10 Downing Street.

[AllNottsAreWe]

I have just downloaded the NHS app to prove my Covid Pass.
It shows a square I assume is for scanning purposes BUT, it also states "Your NHS COVID Pass expires 11 December 2021 at 7.56 am"

Why does it expire ?

I have been jabbed 3 times, the booster was only last week.

How do I get the pass to be renewed ?

[eyepie]

Just reprint it at a later date. It will then show as valid for another month.

[AllNottsAreWe]

OK thanks, so you have to do this every month ?

[AllNottsAreWe]

I also have that little credit card sized piece of paper showing dates of 1st and 2nd jabs, is that classed as a pass ?

[ncfcog]

I also have that little credit card sized piece of paper showing dates of 1st and 2nd jabs, is that classed as a pass ?

Not sure that is accepted although I keep mine in my wallet. As others have said it looks like it's next week before the new guidelines come into play so Saturday shouldn't be an issue.

Regarding the vaccinations I've had two and contracted Covid at the end of October. Have to say I'm glad I had the vaccinations because it still hit me really badly. I actually went 36 hours in bed without having anything to eat or drink or even going to the toilet. I'm still having slight breathing problems 6 weeks later and I dread to think how I would have coped if not for the vaccines and have a greater sympathy now for those who contracted it before the vaccines, it must have been absolutely dreadful for many of them.

I suppose the good thing is despite being really ill with it I didn't need additional medical support and was able to get through it with self medication etc so if nothing else the vaccines are doing their job in a lot of cases by reducing the number of people needing to be admitted to hospital or require other medical assistance.

Either way please don't take it lightly, show some common sense and be mindful of others, and last but not least follow the guidelines regardless of the hypocrisy of those who set them.

[BigFatPie]

I don't know if anyone is interested from a comment from someone in one of the world's most Covid law restrictive countries, but you're all going to be bouncing in and out of restrictions until someone (i.e. the people) say enough is enough.

Many 'down under' are sick to death of being told what to do by their completely out of touch governments, but there are just as many who would be happy to be locked in their homes for the rest of their lives as long as the government (tax payers) pay for it.

The fear that is pushed by the government and the media (where in NZ has had massive financial handouts from the state, as well as the ongoing advertising revenue they receive from the state) is beyond palpable. Many think that if they contract any variant of Covid it is 'instant' death.

But apart from that, it's pretty sunny today ;D

For whatever reason you’ve neglected to mention that NZ has had a grand total of 44 deaths due to Covid.

One reassuring bit about this pandemic is that it’s been demonstrated time and again that people on the right of the political spectrum have an ability to talk sh!t on a whole range of issues.

[Robertomac]

I also have that little credit card sized piece of paper showing dates of 1st and 2nd jabs, is that classed as a pass ?

Possibly. Although I really don't agree with these passes, on the continent at least they are geared up for them with scanners and the only acceptable version of the pass is the universal QR code. We've had little information about how this will be rolled out in practical terms which only makes me even more sceptical about why it has actually been introduced. The government has had Plan B on the shelf for months so surely someone has considered exactly what proof is acceptable? Yesterday's leak of the Allegra Stratton video seems too much of a coincidence to me. Boris bumbles his way from one crisis to the next.

I'm honestly not a conspiracy theorist, but I certainly keep an open mind to what we're told by both the government and the media. The longer this goes on, the more it doesn't stack up. One that keeps sticking out to me is that we were originally told to stay at home to protect the NHS as if it becomes overwhelmed, people will die from treatable illnesses and injuries. But the NHS concurrently closed down many clinics and services which has, and continues to result in the exact thing we set out to avoid.

[eyepie]

OK thanks, so you have to do this every month ?

Just print it when you need it if your previous one has run out.

[countygump]

Carry on as we were two weeks ago. Not a single death worldwide from Omicron. Complete overreaction, entirely political.

This^^^

Omicron appears to be a lot less likely to cause hospitalisations and fatalities, let's hope this turns out to be correct in the long term. First 5 mins of this vid are well worth a watch.



https://youtu.be/1Paq17X6ucQ

[BanjoPie]

Amen brother. Everyone is sick of it but it is what it is and some people including myself are at extreme risk and will most likely die if I catch it so I hope people respect the restrictions even in light of the incompetent in 10 Downing Street.

I would hope that most of the population consider themselves better than them - we should not sink to their level.

[SaltySeaDog]

I have a hamster called Boris so I am exempt from all rules and regulations. I'm having an express BBQ xmas eve your all welcome .Snacks , nibbles music and a topless Secret Santa I would call it a small party but I suppose it could be classed as a business meeting.

I look forward to it Pedro. Business meeting also, so we can claim expenses :)

[jacobncfc]

5 of us go together, 3 of us not jabbed and 2 double jabbed. We will all stand together and boycott from the first day Passes come in. May seem petty to some but i will not stand for discrimination of any sorts of my mates.

You can get in with a negative LF test, and you can get those for free. I think it’s basically pointless, but it’s not really discriminating against anyone unless they’ve actually got the virus.

[Elite_Pie]

I have just downloaded the NHS app to prove my Covid Pass.
It shows a square I assume is for scanning purposes BUT, it also states "Your NHS COVID Pass expires 11 December 2021 at 7.56 am"

Why does it expire ?

I have been jabbed 3 times, the booster was only last week.

How do I get the pass to be renewed ?

You can get an NHS Covid pass letter as proof of vaccination status. The phone app thing only lasts a month, the letter has no expiry date.

It's free and can be found here:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/covid-pass/

Use the link that says 'NHS Covid Pass letter'.

[Bushwacka]

You can get in with a negative LF test, and you can get those for free. I think it’s basically pointless, but it’s not really discriminating against anyone unless they’ve actually got the virus.
So you just keep a negative test (or get someone to do one for you, if you're actually positive) and you can use that whenever you want to get in anywhere? Pointless, as you say and more power to those who claim Plan B is another distraction for the shambles that is the cabinet.

[jacobncfc]

The date on the app always says it’s going to expire, but when you get to the expiry date it just changes to some other random point in the future. No idea why.

[jacobncfc]

So you just keep a negative test (or get someone to do one for you, if you're actually positive) and you can use that whenever you want to get in anywhere? Pointless, as you say and more power to those who claim Plan B is another distraction for the shambles that is the cabinet.

You don’t even have to do the test theoretically, you register the result yourself so can just say you’re negative as long as you have the code that’s on it.

[Elite_Pie]

So you just keep a negative test (or get someone to do one for you, if you're actually positive) and you can use that whenever you want to get in anywhere? Pointless, as you say and more power to those who claim Plan B is another distraction for the shambles that is the cabinet.

It was the same with the ones you needed to go on holiday. All you had to do was show a pic of a negative result on the test cartridge alongside your passport. The company then sent a QR code which was scanned at the airports if they could be bothered. It was utterly pointless because anyone could take the test, but a few people have made a fortune from it.

[Bushwacka]

You don’t even have to do the test theoretically, you register the result yourself so can just say you’re negative as long as you have the code that’s on it.

Ah right. That involves having the App though, which is not fit for purpose and I deleted last year after having to self-isolate twice when I'd not been in contact with anyone I knew had had the virus. Hopefully my vaccine card will suffice.

[jacobncfc]

Ah right. That involves having the App though, which is not fit for purpose and I deleted last year after having to self-isolate twice when I'd not been in contact with anyone I knew had had the virus. Hopefully my vaccine card will suffice.

They’re different apps - the one that pinged you was the NHS Covid-19 app. Also scrapped that long ago.

You get the ‘vaccine passport’ through the normal NHS app, same one you can order prescriptions etc on.

[Bushwacka]

Ah right, assumed they'd lump them all in together to force contact tracing. I'll have a look, cheers.

[jacobncfc]

Ah right, assumed they'd lump them all in together to force contact tracing. I'll have a look, cheers.

From what I can remember, it’s a bit of a nightmare signing up to it because of verifying your identity, but once that’s done it works pretty well.

[BigFatPie]

From what I can remember, it’s a bit of a nightmare signing up to it because of verifying your identity, but once that’s done it works pretty well.

It’s really good, you can access your entire GP history which for some of us is quite long!

[BanjoPie]

THIS!! - The NHS App work perfectly well, no issues at all. Just download your covid pass to your phone once a month. FFS, what is wrong with many of you moaning and complaining, wanting to protest bla bla bla. Just get on with life and stop being f-in idiots!.

Merry Christmas (no doubt many of you will be too busy moaning & protesting to enjoy it)

[eyepie]

THIS!! - The NHS App work perfectly well, no issues at all. Just download your covid pass to your phone once a month. FFS, what is wrong with many of you moaning and complaining, wanting to protest bla bla bla. Just get on with life and stop being f-in idiots!.

Merry Christmas (no doubt many of you will be too busy moaning & protesting to enjoy it)

I like it.

[Glad2BeAPie]

It’s really good, you can access your entire GP history which for some of us is quite long!

My hospital records go back to 1954 and still not done, 15 file folders up to yet

[keldsyke]

THIS!! - The NHS App work perfectly well, no issues at all. Just download your covid pass to your phone once a month. FFS, what is wrong with many of you moaning and complaining, wanting to protest bla bla bla. Just get on with life and stop being f-in idiots!.

Merry Christmas (no doubt many of you will be too busy moaning & protesting to enjoy it)

Yep, just download the app and the pass is always there (as long as you’ve had the two doses) no need to print it off just scan the QR code.

[SwalePie]

Yep, just download the app and the pass is always there (as long as you’ve had the two doses) no need to print it off just scan the QR code.

Yes it really is a pretty simple thing and the NHS app works well. No need for any drama really.

[upthemaggies]

There is something very sinister attached to all this, just not sure what..

Good to know a few here have got their antennas up. This is just another step on the compliance ladder.

[ancientpie]

Yes it really is a pretty simple thing and the NHS app works well. No need for any drama really.

Can see me having fun with this as I don't own a smart phone or a printer but as I am double jabbed hopefully I will find a way, that said as someone who is rated as vulnerable it will be reassuring to know that the people around me have done all they can to avoid catching & passing on the virus. Apart from health issues which are exempt & selfishness I have yet to hear a real reason not to have the vaccine so this is not before time & the sooner it is introduced at all venues the better imo.

[keldsyke]

Good to know a few here have got their antennas up. This is just another step on the compliance ladder.

I think you are a bit out of date, millions of people went to two world wars conscripted (means you have no choice) and lost their lives so some can think they have a sole right to do as they please, I'm guessing there wasn't as much noise from them, but then again we had the attitude of helping everyone and a community spirit . Think yourselves lucky you were not alive a few decades back as having to produce a pass would have been the least of your worries.

[Glad2BeAPie]

Yep, just download the app and the pass is always there (as long as you’ve had the two doses) no need to print it off just scan the QR code.

No need to scan QR code, below the code box select see covid-19 records, and it shows dates when you've been jabbed

[BanjoPie]

O:)

[BigFatPie]

Good to know a few here have got their antennas up. This is just another step on the compliance ladder.

Just wondering what measures you would have taken to combat a global pandemic?

[macstop]

Would it not be easier to put a star on those not vaccinated, i am sure someone tried this before?

[AllNottsAreWe]

You can get an NHS Covid pass letter as proof of vaccination status. The phone app thing only lasts a month, the letter has no expiry date.

It's free and can be found here:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/covid-pass/

Use the link that says 'NHS Covid Pass letter'.

Thanks Elite, I have just requested that letter.

[jacobncfc]

Just wondering what measures you would have taken to combat a global pandemic?

Develop a vaccine and give it to as many people as we can as quickly as possible. We’ve been pretty good at that, but everything else is just messing about around the edges, particularly at this point.

[upthemaggies]

Just wondering what measures you would have taken to combat a global pandemic?

I would have trusted people who know what they are talking about who haven't been captured and compromised to take those decisions.
If you have doubts about the official narrative, do your own research. If not carry on with your trusted sources.

[macstop]

I would have trusted people who know what they are talking about who haven't been captured and compromised to take those decisions.
If you have doubts about the official narrative, do your own research. If not carry on with your trusted sources.

Depends which science you believe UTM, will the players the management and the staff need a passport, just think we could be watching the un vaccinated play before our very eyes.

[upthemaggies]

Depends which science you believe UTM, will the players the management and the staff need a passport, just think we could be watching the un vaccinated play before our very eyes.

You would imagine players and sportsmen in general are a bit more clued up about what's going on, for obvious reasons (well, obvious to some of us). Looks like we are heading for 4 jabs a year - which is basically 10 weeks 'protection' at a time, seeing that it's supposed to be 2 weeks to take effect. I'm seeing a lot of people who have had the first two saying "no more" and I watched a video clip yesterday of some official from one of the drug companies claiming it would need 3 additional jabs to protect from this current variant, by which time it's almost certain another one will have been identified as being worthy of having its own name. I don't see any end to this and I don't think anybody has any real concept of what the consequences will be.

[drillerpie]

Would it not be easier to put a star on those not vaccinated, i am sure someone tried this before?

If you don't want to get vaccinated, I'd disagree (I'm happily vaccinated) with your decision, but I'd also say that in the end it's your body, your choice.

Because of that choice you might have to put up with some inconvenience, like not being able to watch the match or go to other kinds of gathering. I imagine that will be annnoying for you.

Comparing your situation to that of the Jews in Nazi Germany is however, absolutely mental.

[BigFatPie]

Develop a vaccine and give it to as many people as we can as quickly as possible. We’ve been pretty good at that, but everything else is just messing about around the edges, particularly at this point.

Yep. But those who take UTMs position were anti- lockdown, are anti mask and are now anti vaccine. (Apologies if I’ve misrepresented your position Utm).

I’m not sure whether they would have accepted many more millions of excess deaths because they don’t find the use of the above measures palatable.

[upthemaggies]

If you don't want to get vaccinated, I'd disagree (I'm happily vaccinated) with your decision, but I'd also say that in the end it's your body, your choice.

Because of that choice you might have to put up with some inconvenience, like not being able to watch the match or go to other kinds of gathering. I imagine that will be annnoying for you.

Comparing your situation to that of the Jews in Nazi Germany is however, absolutely mental.

Bear in mind Jews (my great grandfather being one) were not rounded up and thrown into concentration camps from day 1. It was a gradual step by step process which took place over the course of many years. There are people in the Jewish community who are seeing parallels. ditto those who escaped from communist countries and North Korea.

[Magpies1959]

Slightly hysterical BFP. The vast majority of deaths are never good news, but to put a higher price on a covid death than all others is just wrong. We have to accept covid is here to stay and get on with life.
Pandemic mutations have always been less virulent in the past, so it seems with vaccines and herd immunity we just have to accept people will die stiil from covid, just like flu, cancer and the miriad of other things that cause humans to stop breathing. Sorry if this seems harsh but the alternative of endless lockdowns will be far worse.

[drillerpie]

Bear in mind Jews (my great grandfather being one) were not rounded up and thrown into concentration camps from day 1. It was a gradual step by step process which took place over the course of many years. There are people in the Jewish community who are seeing parallels. ditto those who escaped from communist countries and North Korea.

As you know from our agreements on other topics, I'm open to heterodox thinking, but here, personally, I'd say there are hardly any parallels.

The only one I can see is the catch-all 'one group of people is being treated differently to another group of people' line of reasoning, which could be applied to an enormous number of situations.

I dare say there are also people in the Jewish community, and escapees from authoritarian regimes who are perfectly happy with the current public health policies, for whatever that is worth.

[BigFatPie]

Slightly hysterical BFP. The vast majority of deaths are never good news, but to put a higher price on a covid death than all others is just wrong. We have to accept covid is here to stay and get on with life.
Pandemic mutations have always been less virulent in the past, so it seems with vaccines and herd immunity we just have to accept people will die stiil from covid, just like flu, cancer and the miriad of other things that cause humans to stop breathing. Sorry if this seems harsh but the alternative of endless lockdowns will be far worse.

I’m being hysterical when others have compared vaccinations with the holocaust? Ok.

No one has put a higher price on covid deaths than others. Obviously covid is here to stay, but that doesn’t mean we don’t try to mitigate its effects with vaccines and other measures, like we do with cancers and car accidents.

Also, no one has advocated for ‘endless lockdowns’. They will be required though if not enough people get themselves vaccinated. I would make anti vax misinformation a criminal offence.

[upthemaggies]

As you know from our agreements on other topics, I'm open to heterodox thinking, but here, personally, I'd say there are hardly any parallels.

The only one I can see is the catch-all 'one group of people is being treated differently to another group of people' line of reasoning, which could be applied to an enormous number of situations.

I dare say there are also people in the Jewish community, and escapees from authoritarian regimes who are perfectly happy with the current public health policies, for whatever that is worth.

Yes, I wouldn't and didn't claim they *all* feel that way, but some do. Seeing what's happening in some other countries, I can see why people are making the connection. The world we've grown up in and taken for granted is not the default setting, something like Nazi Germany, the Chinese revolution or the Soviet Union will almost certainly happen again. If what we are seeing now is the very beginnings of the end for the free west - as we've known it - collapsing over the course of several decades to a century from now, then it won't just be unvaccinated people being blamed for whatever disasters unfold, the outcasts may not be unvaccinated or health pass related at all. but 2020-21 will likely be looked back upon as the turning point.
I won't be cheerleading it.

[applepie2]

Bear in mind Jews (my great grandfather being one) were not rounded up and thrown into concentration camps from day 1. It was a gradual step by step process which took place over the course of many years. There are people in the Jewish community who are seeing parallels. ditto those who escaped from communist countries and North Korea.

It’s the changes to the law, for example making various protest actions illegal, that are going through parliament now, unscrutinised and uncontested, that worry me.

[BigFatPie]

It’s the changes to the law, for example making various protest actions illegal, that are going through parliament now, unscrutinised and uncontested, that worry me.

Yes the sight of Tory MPs waving through those draconian changes while whining at being told to wear a mask would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

As always with those people, they’re fine with attacking other’s rights but are quick to shout ‘oppression’ when they’re affected.

[keldsyke]

You would imagine players and sportsmen in general are a bit more clued up about what's going on, for obvious reasons (well, obvious to some of us).

I wouldn’t bank on it a mate of mine a player (he’s been double jabbed) at a club (not Notts) was tested after a match a couple of months ago, 4 of the 2 match day squads tested positive, 8 of the remaining players hadn’t had one jab so had to self isolate, from what I’ve heard not many have had the full 2 doses.

[upthemaggies]

I wouldn’t bank on it a mate of mine a player (he’s been double jabbed) at a club (not Notts) was tested after a match a couple of months ago, 4 of the 2 match day squads tested positive, 8 of the remaining players hadn’t had one jab so had to self isolate, from what I’ve heard not many have had the full 2 doses.

That's what I was alluding to, that a high percentage of footballers haven't had the jab because they're more aware of the potential side effects and what has been happening to athletes around the world in the last 6 months.

[BanjoPie]

That's what I was alluding to, that a high percentage of footballers haven't had the jab because they're more aware of the potential side effects and what has been happening to athletes around the world in the last 6 months.

What has been happening to athletes around the world in the last 6 months???

[maddogslater]

My dear bro whom loves going to Notts caught covid in August and only suffered mild symptoms, he's 24 stone and not in great health. I'm convinced if he wasn't double jabbed would not be going down with me on Saturday.
I also share some of the concerns by UTM, interesting debate this, without personal attacks so far.

[upthemaggies]

What has been happening to athletes around the world in the last 6 months???

What has always happened - on occasion. Sports men and women (including officials) collapsing and requiring CPR, some dying.
It could be that the current frequency is perfectly normal on a global scale, but the suspicion is that it isn't. If not, it may not be anything to do with the jab but some other phenomena, maybe it's an effect of the virus. It's too early to tell - these things take many many years to assess properly, which is why we would normally have trials and control groups for a new vaccine, especially one that works in a whole new way. Instead the law has been changed so the drug companies are no longer liable if something goes wrong.

This is also the first time we've conducted a vaccination programme with a pandemic in full swing, with the high risk of applying pressure to the virus to mutate in the vaccinated and drive the variants which evade vaccines, creating an arms race with it, as warned by the man who discovered AIDS and a scientist who was advising the WHO on the Ebola outbreak.

We do know for sure that what is being injected isn't staying in the place it was meant to do, it wasn't designed to end up in the heart, the reproductive areas etc. but at least in some people, that is what is happening. We don't know if the changes to the immune system will be permanent (even after just one shot) and what the implications of that would be.


I've taken flu jabs, I've had my kids vaxxed against MMR etc. I'm in the vulnerable group, so believe me, I've looked into this and continue to gather all of the information I can about these vaccines, how they work, what's in them, what's been censored, who's been censored, who has resigned under pressure to give the OK for these vaccines to be used, what the track record is for the companies pushing them is, I monitor all of this pretty carefully on a daily basis. Doesn't make me an expert, but I respect the opinions of people who are putting their reputations on the line to speak the truth as they see it, I do not respect the opinion of a behavioural psychologist and self proclaimed communist advising the government or people purely out to make a profit out of a crisis.

[Woodsetts_Pie]

No-one seems to have figured out yet who will do the policing of this. Lets assume we all turn up at the net home match when the "rules" are in force. Just who will be the Covid-police, checking your Covid-Pass-App or similar? It has to be the turnstile operators surely? And just how will that work then, with £9 per hour one-off employees playing judge and jury as to whether I who have travelled from Worksop, and more who have traveled further, can get in........

Also if a venue has a capacity of 20,000 like ours does it come under the rules?
Do the rules apply to venues holding over 10,000 even if only 200 attend?
Or do 10,001 have to attend before the rules apply?

[Woodsetts_Pie]

Just having a conversation with my daughter who is a Blade and has just read my post.... The issue of Sheffield United and Bramall Lane came up. Bramall Lane has automated turnstiles, no people in the box, you just present your ticket in the slot, it goes ding and lets you in.....

[BanjoPie]

What has always happened - on occasion. Sports men and women (including officials) collapsing and requiring CPR, some dying.
It could be that the current frequency is perfectly normal on a global scale, but the suspicion is that it isn't. If not, it may not be anything to do with the jab but some other phenomena, maybe it's an effect of the virus. It's too early to tell - these things take many many years to assess properly, which is why we would normally have trials and control groups for a new vaccine, especially one that works in a whole new way. Instead the law has been changed so the drug companies are no longer liable if something goes wrong.

This is also the first time we've conducted a vaccination programme with a pandemic in full swing, with the high risk of applying pressure to the virus to mutate in the vaccinated and drive the variants which evade vaccines, creating an arms race with it, as warned by the man who discovered AIDS and a scientist who was advising the WHO on the Ebola outbreak.

We do know for sure that what is being injected isn't staying in the place it was meant to do, it wasn't designed to end up in the heart, the reproductive areas etc. but at least in some people, that is what is happening. We don't know if the changes to the immune system will be permanent (even after just one shot) and what the implications of that would be.


I've taken flu jabs, I've had my kids vaxxed against MMR etc. I'm in the vulnerable group, so believe me, I've looked into this and continue to gather all of the information I can about these vaccines, how they work, what's in them, what's been censored, who's been censored, who has resigned under pressure to give the OK for these vaccines to be used, what the track record is for the companies pushing them is, I monitor all of this pretty carefully on a daily basis. Doesn't make me an expert, but I respect the opinions of people who are putting their reputations on the line to speak the truth as they see it, I do not respect the opinion of a behavioural psychologist and self proclaimed communist advising the government or people purely out to make a profit out of a crisis.

You need to stop reading the rubbish put out by anti-vaxxers and conspiracy nutters. Read the facts, listen to the scientists - there is absolutely no link between any footballers or other athletes collapsing with heart issues and the vaccine. People all over the world have always had unknown heart issues, just google how many runners have died in a half or full marathon - fit healthy people who trained for the race, just keeled over and died BEFORE covid ever existed. Wise up and get yourself vaccinated before its too late.

Stay safe

[upthemaggies]

Wise up and get yourself vaccinated before its too late.

Stay safe

I'm very satisfied, having had Covid, that I have the best immunity possible. Immunity from Sars-1 was shown to be still effective 13 or so years on. I'm not going to take a vaccine that would compromise that immunity.
Also, if there are unknown long term issues with Covid infection, I'd be an idiot to add potential long term issues associated with the vaccine for zero benefit.

People need to make their own risk assessment. Take that choice away and we really are entering a very very dark path indeed. Some countries are seemingly well on the way to it.

[Elite_Pie]

I also share some of the concerns by UTM, interesting debate this, without personal attacks so far.

While I try and respect personal freedoms and not blindly follow like a sheep, from a personal point of view I find the evidence pretty conclusive. Get the jabs as soon as you can, because overall it helps not only you but everyone else in minimising the effects of this virus. I'm triple jabbed and have had Covid (thankfully mild), I'll be booking my next booster as soon as I'm allowed.

[Elite_Pie]

People need to make their own risk assessment. Take that choice away and we really are entering a very very dark path indeed.

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.

[queenslandpie]

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.

The truth of the matter on vaccinations Elite is that nobody knows do they. Will not being vaccinated lead to even darker path? Well it may or it may not. Will being vaccinated lead to a less darker path ( as it appears there is still an inherent risk that the path is dark it is just a question of how dark). If you read about the effectiveness of Pfizer ( which does not include a study yet on Omicron) based on representative samples of some 3 million people in the USA it is only around 45% effective after 6 months. So it doesn't actually do a lot and certainly not what we were all told a while back ( there were claims of 95% effectiveness) . Then we are supposed to have boosters ( they are already making murmurs about a 4th being required) and I personally know of several people hospitalised post COVID jab with heart issues ( Myocarditis) including my Father in Law who before you ask were fit and healthy people who had no issues with their health previously and not that old. So we are now all in a situation where we are being asked to have a vaccine which is not effective medium term and which causes side effects that we have no idea of the size of medium term and also appears to cause side effects which are not being admitted. FWIW I am double vaxxed but I certainly don't see unvaxxed as particularly risky to be around, they are ploughing their own furrow and I have 100% respect for that. Vaccine passes go live in QLD in a week or so. It's going to be interesting to see what huge process issues these cause for business. The current Government advice is that if someone unvaxxed tries to enter your restaurant, pub etc you have to call the police. And on the other hand we are being inundated with police messaging telling us not to call them for trivial matters such as a noisy party, minor break and enter etc. Laughable and this is all certainly a case of the tail wagging the dog with the tail of course being Pfizer.

[upthemaggies]

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.


Vaccinated or not, segregation or not, everybody vaccinated or not. you will be exposed to Covid and future variants for the rest of your life unless you remain in self induced lockdown forever.

The big question now is, does vaccinating screw up the immune system to the point that most or a significant number will be re-infected to the point they become very ill - repeatedly - short of having a specific targeted vaccine in time, assuming they do actually work*.

If unvaxxed with natural immunity could be re-infected to the point of severe sickness (other than a tiny number of breakthrough cases) we would know about it, the BBC and Good Morning Britain etc. would be screaming it from the rooftops on a daily basis to the point of total hysteria. Nobody talks about natural immunity because it works and casts a far wider net to deal with variants, it's free and there is no money to be made out of it. See also effective treatments and Africa mostly breezing through this pandemic despite being the least vaccinated and least medically equipped continent to deal with it.

I'm fairly convinced they want everybody vaccinated to eradicate the control group, which would otherwise show in the long run that people faired far better with exclusive natural immunity. Government is the shadow cast by corporate business, big pharma rules supreme and the politicians and the media (via the Covid related advertising) have been bought. The rest of us become slaves to pharma and our glorious leaders for the rest of our lives, with our immune system and our freedoms entirely in their hands, the middle class and working class replaced by a slave class.


*A virus would normally weaken in time so you'd expect it to kill off a large number in the early stages, taking out the most vulnerable - this being before vaccinations were available. Vaccines now take credit for reduced deaths but they may well have actually made little or no difference.

[SaltySeaDog]

I just want to say UTM, thank you for sharing your points so well today in this discussion. I feel that this type of discourse should be encouraged more, and is very healthy.

You have obviously delved into this subject quite deeply, and I'd like to ask a question if you don't mind?

One of the sticks used to prod/beat the unvaccinated is that if you catch COVID then you are more likely to spread it. Have you found any evidence that supports or disproves this point?

[SwalePie]

While I try and respect personal freedoms and not blindly follow like a sheep, from a personal point of view I find the evidence pretty conclusive. Get the jabs as soon as you can, because overall it helps not only you but everyone else in minimising the effects of this virus. I'm triple jabbed and have had Covid (thankfully mild), I'll be booking my next booster as soon as I'm allowed.

Likewise on all counts

[magpie_mania]

Vaccinated or not, segregation or not, everybody vaccinated or not. you will be exposed to Covid and future variants for the rest of your life unless you remain in self induced lockdown forever.

The big question now is, does vaccinating screw up the immune system to the point that most or a significant number will be re-infected to the point they become very ill - repeatedly - short of having a specific targeted vaccine in time, assuming they do actually work*.

If unvaxxed with natural immunity could be re-infected to the point of severe sickness (other than a tiny number of breakthrough cases) we would know about it, the BBC and Good Morning Britain etc. would be screaming it from the rooftops on a daily basis to the point of total hysteria. Nobody talks about natural immunity because it works and casts a far wider net to deal with variants, it's free and there is no money to be made out of it. See also effective treatments and Africa mostly breezing through this pandemic despite being the least vaccinated and least medically equipped continent to deal with it.

I'm fairly convinced they want everybody vaccinated to eradicate the control group, which would otherwise show in the long run that people faired far better with exclusive natural immunity. Government is the shadow cast by corporate business, big pharma rules supreme and the politicians and the media (via the Covid related advertising) have been bought. The rest of us become slaves to pharma and our glorious leaders for the rest of our lives, with our immune system and our freedoms entirely in their hands, the middle class and working class replaced by a slave class.


*A virus would normally weaken in time so you'd expect it to kill off a large number in the early stages, taking out the most vulnerable - this being before vaccinations were available. Vaccines now take credit for reduced deaths but they may well have actually made little or no difference.

Regarding your last sentence, how do you account for the large drop in deaths and hospitalization which seems to have happened after the vaccines were introduced?

[magpie_mania]

Likewise on all counts

Agreed

[BanjoPie]

Some people are beyond help - If the anti-vaxers are so sure of their facts, they should sign away their right to treatment for covid.

[BigFatPie]

Some people are beyond help - If the anti-vaxers are so sure of their facts, they should sign away their right to treatment for covid.

A very good idea. Not many takers I’d guess.

[upthemaggies]

I just want to say UTM, thank you for sharing your points so well today in this discussion. I feel that this type of discourse should be encouraged more, and is very healthy.

You have obviously delved into this subject quite deeply, and I'd like to ask a question if you don't mind?

One of the sticks used to prod/beat the unvaccinated is that if you catch COVID then you are more likely to spread it. Have you found any evidence that supports or disproves this point?

I would think it stands to reason that the worse the symptoms, the more likely you are to spread a greater viral load and vice-versa.
As vaccinated also catch it, this applies to them. We're being told vaxxed have reduced symptoms, but if that's the case then this would logically be offset (in terms of spread) by the fact they are less likely to isolate or take precautions with mild symptoms, believing they are protected and able to protect others. The more ill you are the less choice you have to be out and about.

There's also the question in which group would the virus more rapidly learn (evolve) to evade vaccines? Logically it has to be in the vaccinated, because it's such a leaky vaccine.

So I think there would be a very strong case to be made that vaccinated are now spreading and driving vaccine resistant variants at least as much as unvaxxed, probably far more, particularly as there are now more vaccinated than unvaxxed, or at least in developed countries. It would make for terribly bad optics though to admit this was the case, so the unvaxxed - as was predicted some six months ago - will instead be blamed for the vaxxed not having the protection originally promised.

[upthemaggies]

A very good idea. Not many takers I’d guess.

Id happily sign up for that.

[SaltySeaDog]

Some people are beyond help - If the anti-vaxers are so sure of their facts, they should sign away their right to treatment for covid.

The problem with this method though, is that we don't deny medical help for smokers that might get lung problems, diabetics (T2) due to dipping in the biccy tin too often, drink drivers that crash, Saturday night fights ending up in A&E, etc, etc.

Although some people might agree that this would be a good approach.

[upthemaggies]

The problem with this method though, is that we don't deny medical help for smokers that might get lung problems, diabetics (T2) due to dipping in the biccy tin too often, drink drivers that crash, Saturday night fights ending up in A&E, etc, etc.

Although some people might agree that this would be a good approach.

Reminds me of this.

"Fury at ‘do not resuscitate’ notices given to Covid patients with learning disabilities
Vulnerable people have encountered ‘shocking discrimination’ during pandemic, says Mencap charity"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/13/new-do-not-resuscitate-orders-imposed-on-covid-19-patients-with-learning-difficulties

I have very little trust left in the NHS.

[magpie_mania]

I would think it stands to reason that the worse the symptoms, the more likely you are to spread a greater viral load and vice-versa.
As vaccinated also catch it, this applies to them. We're being told vaxxed have reduced symptoms, but if that's the case then this would logically be offset (in terms of spread) by the fact they are less likely to isolate or take precautions with mild symptoms, believing they are protected and able to protect others. The more ill you are the less choice you have to be out and about.

There's also the question in which group would the virus more rapidly learn (evolve) to evade vaccines? Logically it has to be in the vaccinated, because it's such a leaky vaccine.

So I think there would be a very strong case to be made that vaccinated are now spreading and driving vaccine resistant variants at least as much as unvaxxed, probably far more, particularly as there are now more vaccinated than unvaxxed, or at least in developed countries. It would make for terribly bad optics though to admit this was the case, so the unvaxxed - as was predicted some six months ago - will instead be blamed for the vaxxed not having the protection originally promised.
Anti-vax rhetoric. The first line is very questionable.

Any comment UTM on why number of deaths and hospitalization dropped so considerably at the same time as vaccinations were introduced?

[cher1]

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.

Agree with this. The only way out of this mess without many more deaths - and long term covid-related disease - is vaccination. It's the unvaccinated who are driving mutations, not the vaccinated. Viruses mutate when they replicate, and that's much more likely in an unvaccinated person. Hence mutations originating in places where vaccination rates are low.

I'm a bit puzzled by the analogy with Nazism, and any suggestion that the unvaccinated could be compared in any way to the plight of persecuted Jews. Those who aren't vaccinated risk their own health, their own lives, but also the health and lives of others by facilitating an increased risk of spread and mutation of the disease, along with all the resulting pressure on the NHS, which in itself causes others to suffer. People who choose not to be vaccinated aren't victims, those who suffer and/or die are the victims. I do however believe that everyone should have the right to choose whether to be vaccinated.

I was in hospital earlier this year (post-covid related) and chatted to some of the registrars about what it had been like for them working during the peak in the pre-vaccine days. It was absolutely heartbreaking listening. We can't kid ourselves that actually, we're wildly overcounting because we're including people who die 'with' covid. We ahad poor reporting structures in place at the outset of the pandemic, so many earlier covid deaths have never even been included.

However it's counted, it's not going to be perfect, but it's unlikely to be practical, or possible, to ascertain the exact cause of every single death, particularly in the sick and elderly. It's so fraught with difficulty. Yes, counting those dying with covid, rather than of covid is a blunt instrument, but it's about as good as it'll get. The excess death data bears out the horror of what's going on.

Anyway, it's booster time for me in the morning..

[drillerpie]

Yes, I wouldn't and didn't claim they *all* feel that way, but some do.

Sure. I wasn't saying you had claimed that. I was just pointing out that whatever value you place on some of them saying one thing, it is counterbalanced by someone them presumably thinking the exact opposite.

I suppose I was questioning the value of the 'some people say...' argument.



Seeing what's happening in some other countries, I can see why people are making the connection.

In some countries they're moving towards compulsory vaccinations. Not something I would get behind, but still a gazillion miles away from the holocaust.



The world we've grown up in and taken for granted is not the default setting, something like Nazi Germany, the Chinese revolution or the Soviet Union will almost certainly happen again. If what we are seeing now is the very beginnings of the end for the free west - as we've known it - collapsing over the course of several decades to a century from now, then it won't just be unvaccinated people being blamed for whatever disasters unfold, the outcasts may not be unvaccinated or health pass related at all. but 2020-21 will likely be looked back upon as the turning point.
I won't be cheerleading it.

To a lesser extent I share your pessimism about the future, and I also share your disappointment at the way a certain section of the political spectrum treats vaccine sceptics.

But IMO the rest of what you have written is again a huge catch-all statement:

If at some point during the next 100 years a new totalitarian regime emerges (think about how much has happened in the last 100 years and I agree that is pretty much nailed on)....If this happens in the West (highly possible, in the last century we've already had fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, East Germany, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, and I could go on)...If this regime discriminates against a certain category of person (again highly likely, they always do), which may have nothing whatsoever to do with vaccines or health passes, then the turning point will have been lockdowns/health passes/vaccines in 2020/2021.

I think the first few parts are so vague as to be almost guaranteed to happen, and I find the link to Covid at the end very unconvincing.

[magpie_mania]

Agree with this. The only way out of this mess without many more deaths - and long term covid-related disease - is vaccination. It's the unvaccinated who are driving mutations, not the vaccinated. Viruses mutate when they replicate, and that's much more likely in an unvaccinated person. Hence mutations originating in places where vaccination rates are low.

I'm a bit puzzled by the analogy with Nazism, and any suggestion that the unvaccinated could be compared in any way to the plight of persecuted Jews. Those who aren't vaccinated risk their own health, their own lives, but also the health and lives of others by facilitating an increased risk of spread and mutation of the disease, along with all the resulting pressure on the NHS, which in itself causes others to suffer. People who choose not to be vaccinated aren't victims, those who suffer and/or die are the victims. I do however believe that everyone should have the right to choose whether to be vaccinated.

I was in hospital earlier this year (post-covid related) and chatted to some of the registrars about what it had been like for them working during the peak in the pre-vaccine days. It was absolutely heartbreaking listening. We can't kid ourselves that actually, we're wildly overcounting because we're including people who die 'with' covid. We ahad poor reporting structures in place at the outset of the pandemic, so many earlier covid deaths have never even been included.

However it's counted, it's not going to be perfect, but it's unlikely to be practical, or possible, to ascertain the exact cause of every single death, particularly in the sick and elderly. It's so fraught with difficulty. Yes, counting those dying with covid, rather than of covid is a blunt instrument, but it's about as good as it'll get. The excess death data bears out the horror of what's going on.

Anyway, it's booster time for me in the morning..

The best post on this thread by a mile.

[upthemaggies]

Sure. I wasn't saying you had claimed that. I was just pointing out that whatever value you place on some of them saying one thing, it is counterbalanced by someone them presumably thinking the exact opposite.

I suppose I was questioning the value of the 'some people say...' argument.



In some countries they're moving towards compulsory vaccinations. Not something I would get behind, but still a gazillion miles away from the holocaust.



To a lesser extent I share your pessimism about the future, and I also share your disappointment at the way a certain section of the political spectrum treats vaccine sceptics.

But IMO the rest of what you have written is again a huge catch-all statement:

If at some point during the next 100 years a new totalitarian regime emerges (think about how much has happened in the last 100 years and I agree that is pretty much nailed on)....If this happens in the West (highly possible, in the last century we've already had fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, East Germany, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, and I could go on)...If this regime discriminates against a certain category of person (again highly likely, they always do), which may have nothing whatsoever to do with vaccines or health passes, then the turning point will have been lockdowns/health passes/vaccines in 2020/2021.

I think the first few parts are so vague as to be almost guaranteed to happen, and I find the link to Covid at the end very unconvincing.

People are now being sacked from their jobs for refusing to take this vaccine. Some countries are telling people they won't be allowed to work at all if they don't get the shot, being threatened with fines or refused entry to food outlets. We're on the cusp of literally starving people to death or making them homeless for not complying. Last week we had a man hunt for three people who had escaped an isolation camp in Australia. If we can do this to people for not having a vaccine, then why not extend it to people who won't say "Trans women are women" for example. That might sound far fetched in the here and now, but look how quickly institutions and businesses are now being captured. If we end up with a social credit system similar to China, us being rewarded with basic freedoms will not solely depend on vaccination status.

[upthemaggies]

Agree with this. The only way out of this mess without many more deaths - and long term covid-related disease - is vaccination. It's the unvaccinated who are driving mutations, not the vaccinated. Viruses mutate when they replicate, and that's much more likely in an unvaccinated person. Hence mutations originating in places where vaccination rates are low.

I'm a bit puzzled by the analogy with Nazism, and any suggestion that the unvaccinated could be compared in any way to the plight of persecuted Jews. Those who aren't vaccinated risk their own health, their own lives, but also the health and lives of others by facilitating an increased risk of spread and mutation of the disease, along with all the resulting pressure on the NHS, which in itself causes others to suffer. People who choose not to be vaccinated aren't victims, those who suffer and/or die are the victims. I do however believe that everyone should have the right to choose whether to be vaccinated.

I was in hospital earlier this year (post-covid related) and chatted to some of the registrars about what it had been like for them working during the peak in the pre-vaccine days. It was absolutely heartbreaking listening. We can't kid ourselves that actually, we're wildly overcounting because we're including people who die 'with' covid. We ahad poor reporting structures in place at the outset of the pandemic, so many earlier covid deaths have never even been included.

However it's counted, it's not going to be perfect, but it's unlikely to be practical, or possible, to ascertain the exact cause of every single death, particularly in the sick and elderly. It's so fraught with difficulty. Yes, counting those dying with covid, rather than of covid is a blunt instrument, but it's about as good as it'll get. The excess death data bears out the horror of what's going on.

Anyway, it's booster time for me in the morning..

Most unvaxxed now have natural immunity and are no more of a risk than somebody fully vaxxed. Very probably less of a risk if the fully vaxxed has not yet had Covid.

[cher1]

People are now being sacked from their jobs for refusing to take this vaccine. Some countries are telling people they won't be allowed to work at all if they don't get the shot, being threatened with fines or refused entry to food outlets. We're on the cusp of literally starving people to death or making them homeless for not complying. Last week we had a man hunt for three people who had escaped an isolation camp in Australia. If we can do this to people for not having a vaccine, then why not extend it to people who won't say "Trans women are women" for example. That might sound far fetched in the here and now, but look how quickly institutions and businesses are now being captured. If we end up with a social credit system similar to China, us being rewarded with basic freedoms will not solely depend on vaccination status.

The opposite side of your coin though is that people have, and continue to, die because of the unvaccinated population. Whether that's themselves or disease they pass to others.

Any requirement to be vaccinated isn't the ideological shift some might say it is. Vaccination against childhood diseases is compulsory in France, and has been for some years. Health workers in the UK who are at risk of exposure to blood and bodily fluids will only be employed if they are immune to Hep B (usually via vaccination).

I see things the opposite way round to you really - that vaccination is really the only viable way to regain the freedom we've lost.

[upthemaggies]

The opposite side of your coin though is that people have, and continue to, die because of the unvaccinated population. Whether that's themselves or disease they pass to others.


Vaccinated pass on the virus as well.

[sinophile]

Absolutely, vaccination is the only route out. This is why intellectual property rights should be waived on vaccines, so that poorer countries can produce their own vaccines instead of being priced out the market. The EU, UK and US have blocked this.

[sinophile]

And, until the whole World is protected variants will continue to arrive, and, sooner or later, one will be even more deadly and will be able to evade current vaccines

[cher1]

Vaccinated pass on the virus as well.

But not to the same extent, and they become less ill. That's been proven.

The number of vaccinated hospitalisations have only increased as immunity wanes. As booster rates increase, the difference will become stark once again.

[magpie_mania]

Vaccinated pass on the virus as well.

Is there any correlation between the numbers hospitalized and dying falling at the same time that the numbers of people vaccinated increased? Or was it just coincidence?

Referencing your comment earlier that vaccinations may or may not work. For me, that's the clearest indication that they do.

[ncfcog]

I haven't looked into this properly yet but instead of forcing vaccines on people is it better to set up an antibody testing programme and if you are positive, like UTM with his Sars-1 infection you don't have to have the vaccine? I have no idea how the antibody tests work but I'm sure there are a few well educated people on here who could explain if antibody testing is an alternative? Seems it might solve a few problems if it worked? Like I said, not something I've researched so could be way off track here XD

[magpie_mania]

I haven't looked into this properly yet but instead of forcing vaccines on people is it better to set up an antibody testing programme and if you are positive, like UTM with his Sars-1 infection you don't have to have the vaccine? I have no idea how the antibody tests work but I'm sure there are a few well educated people on here who could explain if antibody testing is an alternative? Seems it might solve a few problems if it worked? Like I said, not something I've researched so could be way off track here XD

How effective are antibodies after you have had it, and how long do they last for? I guess it might be too early yet to know that. If it is certain that once you have had it you can't get it again that would be a good way forward. But if the effect does wain, then the only booster would be to get it again.

[SwalePie]

How effective are antibodies after you have had it, and how long do they last for? I guess it might be too early yet to know that. If it is certain that once you have had it you can't get it again that would be a good way forward. But if the effect does wain, then the only booster would be to get it again.

On the subject of getting Covid multiple times, according to the data from South Africa, Omicron re-infection rates are notably higher than the other variants.

[SaltySeaDog]

On the subject of getting Covid multiple times, according to the data from South Africa, Omicron re-infection rates are notably higher than the other variants.

But also (at the moment at least), the data shows it to be much less deadly. Hopefully it stays that way

[BigFatPie]

Updated Covid guidance from Notts. Proof of vaccination not needed tomorrow.

https://www.nottscountyfc.co.uk/news/2021/december/southend-match-info-101221/

[upthemaggies]

Will mass vaccination against Omicron give the final blow?

Mass vaccination against Omicron will take away our very last opportunity to prevent SARS-CoV-2 from making a natural selection in favor of hosts who have preserved a fully functional innate immune defense.

Many scientists believe that the multitude of mutations found in the Omicron variant constitute an evolutionary disadvantageous change that drives the virus into a mild course of disease and possibly even into endemicity or extinction altogether. Once again, predictions lose their credibility when natural evolutionary trends are countered by large-scale human intervention. In case of the current viral pandemic, the most worrisome threat is posed by the ongoing mass vaccination program that is only expanding, ignoring concerns related to the evolutionary capacity of this virus.

In order to understand why mass vaccination with updated (i.e., ‘anti-Omicron’) C-19 vaccines is at risk of entailing a bioweapon-like disaster, one must follow the evolutionary consequences of population- level immune pressure on viral infectiousness, a phenomenon that is now widely acknowledged to be driven by mass vaccination campaigns (1). When a dramatic change in the antigenic constellation of the virus (e.g., the one represented by Omicron) occurs in the context of mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic, there should be no doubt that widespread immune pressure is involved. But how can immune pressure on viral infectiousness, for which Omicron is now even affecting its very capacity to be neutralized, lead to a more clement viral behavior? The biggest lesson learned from this pandemic is that whenever we are puzzled about its evolutionary comportment, we should invoke the rules of...innate immunity! By evolving more and more resistance to S-directed, neutralizing antibodies (Abs), SARS-CoV-2 is increasingly setting free the host’s innate Abs (as they’re no longer suppressed).

As innate Abs clear the virus in ways that are not Ag-specific, natural selection of SARS-CoV-2 variants that could escape from innate Abs does not occur because such variants simply don’t exist. More specifically, although Omicron undeniably results from population-level immune pressure and represents a clear-cut example of how SARS-CoV-2 continues to unfold its evolutionary capacity when mass vaccination threatens its perpetuation, it cannot afford this evolutionary adaptation while continuing to outcompete relevant innate Abs. COVID-19 vaccine weekly surveillance reports (weeks 33 through 48), as published by UK Health Security Agency, strongly suggest that innate Abs, especially when thoroughly trained (such as, for example, in older age groups), can resist competition from vaccinal Abs and thereby dramatically reduce case rates in vaccinees (2). It is therefore not surprising that when the virus- neutralizing capacity of vaccinal Abs further diminishes (e.g., in Omicron), innate Abs regain their full- fledged virus-sterilizing capacity and hence dramatically diminish the incidence of disease in vaccinees.

On the other hand, lack of immune recognition of Omicron by previously acquired short-lived Abs in unvaccinated individuals (as a result of previous mild infection with the Delta variant) will also diminish the incidence of disease in younger unvaccinated individuals (note 1).As Omicron is extremely infectious, it ishighly likely that we’ll soon start to witness spectacular waves of infection (mostly exempt from severe disease) all over the world. However, these waves will be followed by a strong decline in viral infectious pressure. This would be the very last moment for halting all mass vaccination programs in order to enable the overall population to further diminish viral infectivity while implementing a widespread antiviral chemoprophylaxis program to further prevent transmission of this highly infectious variant.

Given the continued ignorance and lack of understanding of the pandemic & detrimental consequences of mass vaccination by public and global health authorities, the chances that the disaster I’ve previously alluded to can be prevented are slim (3). The scientifically corrupt narrative is likely to be further nurtured by more and more cases of disease that are likely to occur in vaccinees once they will have acquired short-lived Abs directed at Omicron’s spike protein as a result of previous mild infection. The latter can more easily outcompete innate Abs in vaccinees, the training of which was stalled as a result of their immune suppression by vaccinal Abs. Rapid re-exposure to the highly infectious Omicron variant could then make them much more susceptible to disease.

Geert Vanden Bossche

[upthemaggies]

Harvard Study Explodes Myths About ‘Vaccines’ Stopping the Spread – But It’s Even Worse Than That
December 9, 2021
by Kyle Becker

The Harvard study’s paper was accepted in the European Journal of Epidemiology.

A Harvard study of 68 nations and 2,947 counties in the United States published in the European Journal of Epidemiology is shattering the argument that the mRNA therapeutic drugs being marketed as “vaccines” do anything significantly to stop the spread of Covid-19.

It’s even worse than that. As Becker News suggested in September, there is a positive correlation between a nation’s vaccination levels and the “case” rates being reported. The scientific findings are a crushing blow to the argument that the vaccines have a “public health” purpose and that vaccine mandates are justified.

The Harvard researcher who co-authored the study, S. V. Subramanian of the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies, teamed up with Canadian researcher Akhil Kumar to perform the research.

Their “bombshell” findings? Read them and weep:

At the country-level, there appears to be no discernable relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people.

As the Covid pandemic continues to defy predictions about when it will finally be ‘over,’ there is a curious phenomenon taking place across the United States and around the globe: Covid-19 case rates increasing alongside vaccination rates.

The textbook examples of this disturbing trend are the nations of Israel, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Israel is now experiencing its fourth wave, which is being accompanied by another round of ‘booster shots.’ Israel has 61.5% of all adults “fully vaccinated” (although the use of ‘booster shots’ throws the term into question.)

Israel was also one of the most suggestive cases for the above-cited Harvard study.

Notably, Israel with over 60% of their population fully vaccinated had the highest COVID-19 cases per 1 million people in the last 7 days. The lack of a meaningful association between percentage population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases is further exemplified, for instance, by comparison of Iceland and Portugal. Both countries have over 75% of their population fully vaccinated and have more COVID-19 cases per 1 million people than countries such as Vietnam and South Africa that have around 10% of their population fully vaccinated.

Where was the Omicron variant first detected? Botswana, followed by South Africa. Interesting.

The study also makes an interesting point about counties with extremely high vaccination rates: “Of the top 5 counties that have the highest percentageof population fully vaccinated (99.9–84.3%), the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) identifies 4 of them as ‘High’ Transmission counties.”

Thus, if you believe that getting nearly the entire local population “vaccinated” will do anything to stop the lockdowns and mandates, this data should make you think again. The agenda is political, and therefore, the solution will have to be political.

However, this isn’t stopping Pfizer’s CEO from making the unsubstantiated claim to sell the “booster” shots.
“Although two doses of the vaccine may still offer protection against severe disease caused by the Omicron strain, it’s clear from these preliminary data that protection is improved with a third dose of our vaccine,” Pfizer’s CEO Albert Bourla said. “Ensuring as many people as possible are fully vaccinated with the first two dose series and a booster remains the best course of action to prevent the spread of COVID-19.”

This is an absolute lie. It should be no surprise that a Big Pharma CEO would deceive the public about his product. But the U.S. government and the corporate press turning a blind eye to the false claim should have Americans outraged.

As a legal team recently explained in a lawsuit against the FDA, the “vaccines” have absolutely failed in preventing the spread of Covid-19. Thus, there is no legal, moral, or public health justification to mandate “vaccines.”

[sinophile]

Bossche is an outlier.

"Geert Vanden Bossche has recently published a letter in which he argues that the vaccination campaign against COVID-19 is going to precipitate a public health disaster because the vaccines will select for viral variants that can escape their protection and drive them towards higher virulence. His claims are speculative, he offers no evidence to support his arguments, and makes several comments which are blatantly incorrect. The core of his argument relies on the assumption that COVID-19 vaccines do not have a significant effect on transmission. This has been repeatedly confirmed to be false in multiple studies. Furthermore, even if his assumptions about the effects of the vaccine on transmission are true, his conclusions are incorrect based on established precedent from Marek’s disease, a viral illness of birds with a vaccine that does not strongly affect transmission- but it still shows meaningful public health benefits in the populations of chickens where it is used. The vaccines will absolutely be critical to ending the pandemic, and fortunately the modular nature of the technology allows for rapid reformulation and adjustment as necessary (and thus far, though precautions are being taken with novel variants to produce vaccines specific to their set of problematic mutations, there isn’t significant enough evidence to suggest that total reformulation of the vaccines is needed), but no issues raised in this letter warrant a re-evaluation of our current COVID-19 vaccination policy". Edward Nirenberg

[sinophile]

Likewise, the study by S. V. Subramanian is flawed.

"The mistake of this study is the inappropriate methodology they used for their conclusions. The methodology does not specify the degree of distortion and risk factors, which is the standard in studies that lead to conclusions evaluating the effect of drugs and therapies. In the study, I see two factors as major risks of distortion: 1. The authors compare the same time interval of 7 days in all countries included in the study, without taking into account the fact that some of the evaluated countries were before the third wave of the pandemic during this period (East Europe), while in others (Iceland, Portugal) this wave culminated (2, 3). In the countries of Eastern Europe (Slovakia, Romania, Serbia), at that time, despite the low vaccination rate, there were no increased numbers of new cases recorded, as the third wave had not yet started there. Two weeks later, these numbers were significantly higher and these days they record a daily increase of about 10-20 % of performed tests (4). In addition, the highest number of hospitalizations is in the least vaccinated regions. 2. Although the authors recalculated the number of new cases per 1 million inhabitants, they did not take into account the number and type of tests performed. It is logical that a higher number of tested individuals also means a higher number of new cases and vice versa. And here comes the biggest paradox that the authors have elevated to a scientific finding, namely that the most vaccinated countries, such as Iceland and Portugal, have the highest number of new cases. The authors contrasted South Africa and Vietnam, which they said had the lowest number of new cases and a vaccination rate of only 10%. Such a paradox should be explained in the study, and the demanding peer review of the peer-reviewed journal should filter out similar "revolutionary conclusions". Isn't the high vaccination rate factor also associated with high testing rates, especially in rich countries with a highly developed health care system as well as a data collection system? In contrast, WHO data from the reporting period do not support these findings (5). Do the authors suggest that the vaccination causes increase of the number of new cases? Do they have any other explanation for that? If we consider as a case every positive RT-PCR test (which is not correct), then the study is still full of speculative interpretations and especially conclusions about the motivation/discrimination of people to be vaccinated. Of course, the degree of motivation and discrimination is a matter of discussion, but this discussion should not create prejudices that lead to tendentious and erroneous conclusions of scientific work". Ivan Holko

The point of posting the above two is that there are outliers who publish results of their studies, which is fair enough. However, the vast majority of scientific thought is that vaccines are the only way out of the pandemic.

[upthemaggies]

Bossche is an outlier.

"Geert Vanden Bossche has recently published a letter in which he argues that the vaccination campaign against COVID-19 is going to precipitate a public health disaster because the vaccines will select for viral variants that can escape their protection and drive them towards higher virulence. His claims are speculative, he offers no evidence to support his arguments, and makes several comments which are blatantly incorrect. The core of his argument relies on the assumption that COVID-19 vaccines do not have a significant effect on transmission. This has been repeatedly confirmed to be false in multiple studies. Furthermore, even if his assumptions about the effects of the vaccine on transmission are true, his conclusions are incorrect based on established precedent from Marek’s disease, a viral illness of birds with a vaccine that does not strongly affect transmission- but it still shows meaningful public health benefits in the populations of chickens where it is used. The vaccines will absolutely be critical to ending the pandemic, and fortunately the modular nature of the technology allows for rapid reformulation and adjustment as necessary (and thus far, though precautions are being taken with novel variants to produce vaccines specific to their set of problematic mutations, there isn’t significant enough evidence to suggest that total reformulation of the vaccines is needed), but no issues raised in this letter warrant a re-evaluation of our current COVID-19 vaccination policy". Edward Nirenberg

""Firstly, I am not a public health expert, nor an expert on COVID-19, pandemics generally, virology, infectious disease, or medicine."
Edward Nirenberg

[upthemaggies]

"The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has said that it will take 75 years to process a Freedom of Information Act request relating to the release of important documents associated with the approval of the Pfizer vaccine. The FDA claims that it will take this long because it can only process 500 pages per month and there are tens of thousands of files which need to be reviewed before they are authorised for release, despite the same agency giving the green-light to the Pfizer jab in just over a 100 days after it was given access to those same documents. "

[sinophile]

Well, we can all find so-called experts on the internet who will push their particular theories. I'll stick to believing what the vast majority of health experts say. Others are perfectly entitled to believe the more extreme conspiracy theorists. Anyway, stay safe and protect others.

[Mapperleypie]

"The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has said that it will take 75 years to process a Freedom of Information Act request relating to the release of important documents associated with the approval of the Pfizer vaccine. The FDA claims that it will take this long because it can only process 500 pages per month and there are tens of thousands of files which need to be reviewed before they are authorised for release, despite the same agency giving the green-light to the Pfizer jab in just over a 100 days after it was given access to those same documents. "

Have you got anything from Right Said Fred or Ian Brown?

[upthemaggies]

Have you got anything from Right Said Fred or Ian Brown?


Ian Brown
"Care workers and NHS staff are amongst the lowest paid workers. Forcing them to take a medium/long term untested jab from big corps with indemnity from harm to keep their job is unjustifiable class war."

I'll get back to you on Right Said Fred

[BigFatPie]

Well, we can all find so-called experts on the internet who will push their particular theories. I'll stick to believing what the vast majority of health experts say. Others are perfectly entitled to believe the more extreme conspiracy theorists. Anyway, stay safe and protect others.

Yep it’s like getting 100 electricians round to your house, 99 of whom say it needs rewiring or the whole lot will go up, but going with the 1 who says no, don’t bother, everything’s safe.

[upthemaggies]

Ian Brown
"Care workers and NHS staff are amongst the lowest paid workers. Forcing them to take a medium/long term untested jab from big corps with indemnity from harm to keep their job is unjustifiable class war."

I'll get back to you on Right Said Fred


They did tell Andrew Neil to F-off

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF3_JFQWUAEQcmv?format=jpg&name=small

[upthemaggies]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGNrKR6VUAUQPFh?format=png&name=small

This can't be for real.

[lunaspie]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGNrKR6VUAUQPFh?format=png&name=small

This can't be for real.

'Fraid so. You could say she's put de Block on orgies in Ostend.

[SaltySeaDog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGNrKR6VUAUQPFh?format=png&name=small

This can't be for real.

Shame. I'll pack my leather mask away again then...

[BanjoPie]

Can all those who post **** shut the **** up!!!

[ncfcog]

They did tell Andrew Neil to F-off

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF3_JFQWUAEQcmv?format=jpg&name=small

Pretty poor from Neil that. You’re not your! SIIDDD!!

[BanjoPie]

I think this thread has been invaded by aliens:)

[upthemaggies]

Can all those who post **** shut the **** up!!!

Live by your own example and lead the way.

[upthemaggies]

Segregate the unvaccinated! Football clubs 'are told to split players into double jabbed, boosted, previously infected and unvaccinated groups' on team coaches in the EFL to crackdown on the new Omicron Covid variant
English Football League has reportedly issued new advice to segregate players
Football body has taken steps in effort to limit Omicron spread within the sport
The 72 clubs are being instructed to think about how their players are grouped

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10295623/Covid-EFL-clubs-told-split-players-try-limit-Omicron-spread.html

No deaths or hospitalisations from this variant as far as I know, no worse than a mild cold. If I hadn't already had Covid I'd be praying I'd get Omicron to get immunity.

[applepie2]

No deaths or hospitalisations from this variant as far as I know, no worse than a mild cold. If I hadn't already had Covid I'd be praying I'd get Omicron to get immunity.

I’m waiting for actual data on this, not “as far as I know”. In the meantime, it’s not a big burden to be cautious for two or three weeks. It had crossed my mind that, if Omicron is highly infectious but not highly dangerous, it might actually be helpful - but only if it doesn’t mutate into a variant as infectious but more dangerous.

What I would really like to see is our Government taking a lead in helping the whole world to have access to vaccines, but they’ll stop lying before they do anything for anyone else. So it’ll never happen.

[SwalePie]

For those messaging, I have no idea of FootyMad's policy on public health misinformation being posted on their platform. I do think (hope???) that the majority of us are grown up enough to know what's real and what's nonsense though.

Provided this thread doesn't descend into a war please fill your boots. If there is anything totally beyond the pale please use the 'Report Post' function as normal.

[SwalePie]

Posting as an ordinary poster, Channel 4's Dispatches 'Vaccine Wars: The Truth About Pfizer' could be an interesting watch tonight.

[upthemaggies]

I’m waiting for actual data on this, not “as far as I know”. In the meantime, it’s not a big burden to be cautious for two or three weeks. It had crossed my mind that, if Omicron is highly infectious but not highly dangerous, it might actually be helpful - but only if it doesn’t mutate into a variant as infectious but more dangerous.

What I would really like to see is our Government taking a lead in helping the whole world to have access to vaccines, but they’ll stop lying before they do anything for anyone else. So it’ll never happen.

Inevitable that some will end up in hospital, people can end up with complications over a cold. Once the media get hold of it, that will be the cue for the government to introduce vax passports, claiming it was either that or another lockdown.

[upthemaggies]

For those messaging, I have no idea of FootyMad's policy on public health misinformation being posted on their platform. I do think (hope???) that the majority of us are grown up enough to know what's real and what's nonsense though.

Provided this thread doesn't descend into a war please fill your boots. If there is anything totally beyond the pale please use the 'Report Post' function as normal.

I might have to resurrect my Navy avatar.

[applepie2]

Inevitable that some will end up in hospital, people can end up with complications over a cold. Once the media get hold of it, that will be the cue for the government to introduce vax passports, claiming it was either that or another lockdown.

Yeah, people can even end up with complications after a vaccine.

[upthemaggies]

Yeah, people can even end up with complications after a vaccine.

Might be worth checking the current death total for this vaccine compared to all others.

[maddogslater]

Inevitable that some will end up in hospital, people can end up with complications over a cold. Once the media get hold of it, that will be the cue for the government to introduce vax passports, claiming it was either that or another lockdown.
With you on this.

[upthemaggies]

If only this thread had been started by BanjoPie titled "O/T:- Impressed with the vaccine".
I'm sure it would age as well as his leadership one.

[SaltySeaDog]

Well, it was good to have a variety of opinions shared.

Stay well y'all

[BigFatPie]

Enjoy tomorrow lads, might be the last game for a bit.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/10/stringent-uk-covid-measures-needed-within-a-week-leak-reveals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[upthemaggies]

Enjoy tomorrow lads, might be the last game for a bit.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/10/stringent-uk-covid-measures-needed-within-a-week-leak-reveals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Will 19 games be enough to justify a PPG final table or will the season be expunged?
We could drop out of the top 7 on PPG if results go the wrong way.

[upthemaggies]

Anybody watch the C4 Pfizer doc?

Mail previewed it with......
Pfizer accused of funding lies about AstraZeneca's jab: Explosive Channel 4 documentary alleges drug giant paid for speeches linking rival British vaccine to CANCER
Slides from Pfizer funded scientists made several false claims about rival's jab
It clamed the AZ jab could cause cancer and was dangerous to give some people
It is also reported it takes Pfizer 76p to make its jab which sells to the UK for £22
These claims are from a Channel 4 investigation that is due to air later this week
Pfizer denied all suggestions it had worked to undermine other scientific efforts


Meanwhile
BBC broadcaster Victoria Derbyshire
@vicderbyshire
"My brother’s triple-jabbed - the third one was Pfizer 3-4 wks ago. He’s just got covid & feels ‘rough’ & is isolating. Had a Xmas meal out with a load of mates last Friday - all of them vaccinated - 17 out of 21 of them have now tested positive."

Bring on the passports!

[keldsyke]

Anybody watch the C4 Pfizer doc?

Mail previewed it with......
Pfizer accused of funding lies about AstraZeneca's jab: Explosive Channel 4 documentary alleges drug giant paid for speeches linking rival British vaccine to CANCER
Slides from Pfizer funded scientists made several false claims about rival's jab
It clamed the AZ jab could cause cancer and was dangerous to give some people
It is also reported it takes Pfizer 76p to make its jab which sells to the UK for £22
These claims are from a Channel 4 investigation that is due to air later this week
Pfizer denied all suggestions it had worked to undermine other scientific efforts


Meanwhile
BBC broadcaster Victoria Derbyshire
@vicderbyshire
"My brother’s triple-jabbed - the third one was Pfizer 3-4 wks ago. He’s just got covid & feels ‘rough’ & is isolating. Had a Xmas meal out with a load of mates last Friday - all of them vaccinated - 17 out of 21 of them have now tested positive."

Bring on the passports!

If you believe anything the BBC or Channel 4 tell you, you need your head testing, if it doesn’t fit their agendas they will ignore it.

Also do we have all these anti vaccine posts? If you don’t want it fine, but don’t preach to others that they are wrong, the mod needs to have a word!

I had Covid 6 weeks ago, fit, 2 jabs, no underlying health issues, the one thing that I kept thinking about through the scary chest tightening phase is how bad it could have been if I hadn’t had the 2 jabs, I’m afraid some are going to only learn the hard way!

[Elite_Pie]

Anybody watch the C4 Pfizer doc?

I saw most of it, depressing though not unexpected viewing. Big business puts it's profits way ahead of the survival of the human race.

Still, I'm sure on that principle there will be a lucrative job for Boris if he loses this one.

[upthemaggies]

If you believe anything the BBC or Channel 4 tell you, you need your head testing, if it doesn’t fit their agendas they will ignore it.

Also do we have all these anti vaccine posts? If you don’t want it fine, but don’t preach to others that they are wrong, the mod needs to have a word!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGRRo2OXIAMZbwC?format=jpg&name=small

[keldsyke]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGRRo2OXIAMZbwC?format=jpg&name=small

Re-read the last bit of my post! Stooping to a new low taking the piss out of people who have now had it.

[BigFatPie]

Will 19 games be enough to justify a PPG final table or will the season be expunged?
We could drop out of the top 7 on PPG if results go the wrong way.

19 games wouldn’t be enough, but I hope it wouldn’t come to that.

According to this health journalist from South Africa, early evidence suggests that hospital admissions with omicron higher amongst the age groups with lower vaccination rates. (unsurprisingly).

https://twitter.com/miamalan/status/1469268454054244352?s=21

[cher1]

Anybody watch the C4 Pfizer doc?

Mail previewed it with......
Pfizer accused of funding lies about AstraZeneca's jab: Explosive Channel 4 documentary alleges drug giant paid for speeches linking rival British vaccine to CANCER
Slides from Pfizer funded scientists made several false claims about rival's jab
It clamed the AZ jab could cause cancer and was dangerous to give some people
It is also reported it takes Pfizer 76p to make its jab which sells to the UK for £22
These claims are from a Channel 4 investigation that is due to air later this week
Pfizer denied all suggestions it had worked to undermine other scientific efforts


Meanwhile
BBC broadcaster Victoria Derbyshire
@vicderbyshire
"My brother’s triple-jabbed - the third one was Pfizer 3-4 wks ago. He’s just got covid & feels ‘rough’ & is isolating. Had a Xmas meal out with a load of mates last Friday - all of them vaccinated - 17 out of 21 of them have now tested positive."

Bring on the passports!

Yeah, let's all listen to Victoria Derbyshire on this.

I think some people in this thread are confusing anecdotes and outlying medical opinions with actual peer reviewed studies. If someone could link to some peer reviewed papers published in respected journals, which support the theory that vaccination is a waste of time, it'd be interesting to see them.

As for Pfizer, it wouldn't surprise me if there were dodgy financial dealings within drug companies. That doesn't mean vaccines don't work though. For England, by the end of Q3 2021, estimates suggest that 123,100 deaths and 23,915,000 infections have been prevented
as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 17 September. That's taken from a Public Health England report. The report, and the references used, are here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-surveillance-report

[upthemaggies]

Re-read the last bit of my post! Stooping to a new low taking the piss out of people who have now had it.

You edited it after I'd replied to your original post.

Welcome to the natural immunity club.

[keldsyke]

You edited it after I'd replied to your original post.

Welcome to the natural immunity club.

I don’t think I’ll be taking advice from someone who gets their ‘facts’ from someone who researches it on the Victoria Derbyshire show, let’s hope you don’t get it and learn the hard way.

[Elite_Pie]

Well, we can all find so-called experts on the internet who will push their particular theories.

Yep, that's why I don't bother to read them. It's dead easy to tap 'Why vaccines are good' or 'Why vaccines are bad' into Google, you will very quickly find something you like and copy and paste it as fact. My views are simply based on every country in the world pushing vaccines as a priority and deaths, hospitalisations and infection rates falling since they were introduced.

[keldsyke]

My views are simply based on every country in the world pushing vaccines as a priority and deaths, hospitalisations and infection rates falling since they were introduced.

And that’s the key thing it’s just not a UK issue it’s a global issue.

[Notsohumblepie]

Yeah, let's all listen to Victoria Derbyshire on this.

I think some people in this thread are confusing anecdotes and outlying medical opinions with actual peer reviewed studies. If someone could link to some peer reviewed papers published in respected journals, which support the theory that vaccination is a waste of time, it'd be interesting to see them.

As for Pfizer, it wouldn't surprise me if there were dodgy financial dealings within drug companies. That doesn't mean vaccines don't work though. For England, by the end of Q3 2021, estimates suggest that 123,100 deaths and 23,915,000 infections have been prevented
as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 17 September. That's taken from a Public Health England report. The report, and the references used, are here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-surveillance-report

You're dead right . As with the Flu, vaccination has been shown in several studies to reduce the severity of illness in people who are vaccinated but still get sick. with a 26% lower risk of ICU admission and a 31% lower risk of death from Flu compared to those who were unvaccinated. I don't think the COVID vaccine regime has ever purported to be that much different , although the severity prevention factor seems to be more significant. I have never seen the vaccine as source of immunity , but as a powerful means of minimal discomfort, and maximised possible survival . Anecdotes make good headlines, but any vaguely positive news gets trampled to death at birth. That's as shame cause there isn't much of it about.

[upthemaggies]

I don’t think I’ll be taking advice from someone who gets their ‘facts’ from someone who researches it on the Victoria Derbyshire show, let’s hope you don’t get it and learn the hard way.

I' had it a few months before I got my first of five or six letters inviting me to take the jab. Lucky for me, otherwise I might have considered taking the shot if I hadn't already had it, with less info available at that time.

I quoted VD's tweet, to show that even BBC employees are now beginning to realise what a complete and utter farce this situation is.

[SwalePie]

I think this thread has now gone the way of the old Brexit threads. Nobody is going to change their mind, whether pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine.

Why don't we just go back to the original matter of whether we can attend Notts matches?

And please stop messaging me about it XD

[upthemaggies]

I think this thread has now gone the way of the old Brexit threads. Nobody is going to change their mind, whether pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine.

Why don't we just go back to the original matter of whether we can attend Notts matches?

And please stop messaging me about it XD

Evidently some fellow posters here with very fragile faith in these vaccines who cannot cope with somebody suggesting the vax might not be all they thought it was cracked up to be. Encouraging to hear.

[Elite_Pie]

Evidently some fellow posters here with very fragile faith in these vaccines who cannot cope with somebody suggesting the vax might not be all they thought it was cracked up to be. Encouraging to hear.

If someone really doesn't want to risk having the vaccine then I think that is their absolute right. If the rules then decide that they are not allowed to go to footy matches, theatres, cinemas, pubs, restaurants or travel abroad I hope they don't complain.

[Robertomac]

Well, it was good to have a variety of opinions shared.

Stay well y'all

Been a good thread. Points made and debated amicably.

[upthemaggies]

If someone really doesn't want to risk having the vaccine then I think that is their absolute right. If the rules then decide that they are not allowed to go to footy matches, theatres, cinemas, pubs, restaurants or travel abroad I hope they don't complain.

Nor should those in the private sector who enforce these rules if they struggle or go bust, turning away the very same people who were supporting them against lockdowns.

[cher1]

I think it's been an engaging thread. People might not change their minds, but it's still interesting to read what people are thinking and why.

Am not one of the people messaging Swale btw.

[upthemaggies]

I think it's been an engaging thread. People might not change their minds, but it's still interesting to read what people are thinking and why.

Am not one of the people messaging Swale btw.

I never imagined you would be.
There's three I'm quite certain about. If I found out that one of them wasn't, I would un-ignore button him.

[Elite_Pie]

Nor should those in the private sector who enforce these rules if they struggle or go bust, turning away the very same people who were supporting them against lockdowns.

I don't think anyone has ever wanted lockdowns, but I think they were a necessary evil. I think history shows that those countries that imposed early and strict lockdowns fared much better in death numbers than those (like us) who adopted a dithering, ambiguous approach.

There might be a case for 'it's here, let's just face up to it', but I dread to think the misery that would have caused. If you're happy with a 'survival of the fittest' approach, I would prefer to try and consider those who aren't the fittest.

[magpie_mania]

I think it's been an engaging thread. People might not change their minds, but it's still interesting to read what people are thinking and why.

Am not one of the people messaging Swale btw.
Agreed, and it's not me either!

[Elite_Pie]

I think it's been an engaging thread. People might not change their minds, but it's still interesting to read what people are thinking and why.

Me too. I always think the best way to reach a conclusion is to listen to differing opinions, and while I haven't changed my mind I have been given food for thought by some posts. It's something that isn't cut and dried, and we'll only find out who was right later.


Am not one of the people messaging Swale btw.

Nor me, in all my years on here I've only used the 'complain' button twice. The first was when a Forest fan call Jimmy Sirrel a p aedophile, and the second was when a post named a family member.

[Robertomac]

I don't think anyone has ever wanted lockdowns, but I think they were a necessary evil. I think history shows that those countries that imposed early and strict lockdowns fared much better in death numbers than those (like us) who adopted a dithering, ambiguous approach.

There might be a case for 'it's here, let's just face up to it', but I dread to think the misery that would have caused. If you're happy with a 'survival of the fittest' approach, I would prefer to try and consider those who aren't the fittest.

I guess we'll never know if lockdowns were successful really as we'd need a control to compare against. I think the first was probably the right call in the face of the unknown.

However, I think the reality is lockdowns are a short term measure that only delay the inevitable and are not a medium or long term strategy. I'm beyond doubt that they inflict a larger scale of broader harm to society than that posed by the virus.

[upthemaggies]

Agreed, and it's not me either!

Fair play.
Un-ignored.

[magpie_mania]

Me too. I always think the best way to reach a conclusion is to listen to differing opinions, and while I haven't changed my mind I have been given food for thought by some posts. It's something that isn't cut and dried, and we'll only find out who was right later.



Nor me, in all my years on here I've only used the 'complain' button twice. The first was when a Forest fan call Jimmy Sirrel a p aedophile, and the second was when a post named a family member.

Will we ever find out? BJ said there will be an independent enquiry after it's over. Doubt he will be PM then.

[SaltySeaDog]

I guess we'll never know if lockdowns were successful really as we'd need a control to compare against. I think the first was probably the right call in the face of the unknown.

However, I think the reality is lockdowns are a short term measure that only delay the inevitable and are not a medium or long term strategy. I'm beyond doubt that they inflict a larger scale of broader harm to society than that posed by the virus.

I think Sweden didn't go into a hard lockdown, and off the top of my head they weren't too badly affected.

But I agree that they certainly seemed necessary at the time to nip transmissions in the bud.

[drillerpie]

People are now being sacked from their jobs for refusing to take this vaccine. Some countries are telling people they won't be allowed to work at all if they don't get the shot, being threatened with fines or refused entry to food outlets. We're on the cusp of literally starving people to death or making them homeless for not complying. Last week we had a man hunt for three people who had escaped an isolation camp in Australia. If we can do this to people for not having a vaccine, then why not extend it to people who won't say "Trans women are women" for example. That might sound far fetched in the here and now, but look how quickly institutions and businesses are now being captured. If we end up with a social credit system similar to China, us being rewarded with basic freedoms will not solely depend on vaccination status.

I think there's a fair amount of hyperbole in that. For example, I don't know of any countries where governments have said people aren't allowed to enter food shops without proof of vaccine, in fact they always seem to be quite keep to avoid that sort of problem.

In the unlikely case that these people had neither an internet connection nor a telephone to order a delivery, and had no friends or family to pick food up for them, and preferred to do nothing while their health deteriorated or had literally no other way of getting hold of food, and all of this was happening happening on a significant scale, then we could reasonably say that we are on the cusp of literally starving people to death.

The trans issue you and I agree about, and I don't think anybody wants a Chjnese style social credit system.

I still haven't seen anything that has changed my mind that we are so far away from the Holocaust that any comparisons are unwise.

On a broader note, I would disagree with Swale (while appreciative of his hard work) that this thread has become like the Brexit threads. So far there have been some interesting exchanges of views and very little antagonism.

I think it's a myth that people never changed their views. Ok, people with very entrenched views are unlikely to change, but I personally have changed some of my opinions due at least in part to conversations on here with Bohinen. We need to respect each other, obviously, and not everyone will agree about everything, but when we stop talking and listening to each other is when we end up with divided societies.

[i961pie]

If someone really doesn't want to risk having the vaccine then I think that is their absolute right. If the rules then decide that they are not allowed to go to footy matches, theatres, cinemas, pubs, restaurants or travel abroad I hope they don't complain.

This

[upthemaggies]

I think there's a fair amount of hyperbole in that. For example, I don't know of any countries where governments have said people aren't allowed to enter food shops without proof of vaccine, in fact they always seem to be quite keep to avoid that sort of problem.

In the unlikely case that these people had neither an internet connection nor a telephone to order a delivery, and had no friends or family to pick food up for them, and preferred to do nothing while their health deteriorated or had literally no other way of getting hold of food, and all of this was happening happening on a significant scale, then we could reasonably say that we are on the cusp of literally starving people to death.

The trans issue you and I agree about, and I don't think anybody wants a Chjnese style social credit system.

I still haven't seen anything that has changed my mind that we are so far away from the Holocaust that any comparisons are unwise.

On a broader note, I would disagree with Swale (while appreciative of his hard work) that this thread has become like the Brexit threads. So far there have been some interesting exchanges of views and very little antagonism.

I think it's a myth that people never changed their views. Ok, people with very entrenched views are unlikely to change, but I personally have changed some of my opinions due at least in part to conversations on here with Bohinen. We need to respect each other, obviously, and not everyone will agree about everything, but when we stop talking and listening to each other is when we end up with divided societies.

I re-evaluated all of my political beliefs last year, triggered by the taking the knee/social "justice" phenomena setting the alarm bells ringing. I don't think that whole scene would have been anything like as widespread and in such sharp focus without the Covid crisis to enable it, I think the two are very much entwined and the left are being used as useful idiots to help usher in a whole new level of controls that could easily swing to the far right at any time, there comes a point where there's little difference anyway.

I don't think anybody is suggesting we are about to see a repeat of the holocaust in the next few years, but what we are seeing now is how totalitarianism begins. We have gone beyond "No Irish, no blacks, no dogs", which was never a government directive. This is as bad a situation as we've seen in western Europe for basic human rights since World War II.

If predictions of food shortages/supplies become reality, which group will people be calling for to be denied/rationed first?

[BigFatPie]

I re-evaluated all of my political beliefs last year, triggered by the taking the knee/social "justice" phenomena setting the alarm bells ringing. I don't think that whole scene would have been anything like as widespread and in such sharp focus without the Covid crisis to enable it, I think the two are very much entwined and the left are being used as useful idiots to help usher in a whole new level of controls that could easily swing to the far right at any time, there comes a point where there's little difference anyway.

I don't think anybody is suggesting we are about to see a repeat of the holocaust in the next few years, but what we are seeing now is how totalitarianism begins. We have gone beyond "No Irish, no blacks, no dogs", which was never a government directive. This is as bad a situation as we've seen in western Europe for basic human rights since World War II.

If predictions of food shortages/supplies become reality, which group will people be calling for to be denied/rationed first?

The government aren’t using covid as a stealth tactic to take away our rights. They’re already doing that in plain sight with the Nationality and Borders Bill;

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/what-is-the-nationality-and-borders-bill-why-is-it-so-controversial-and-what-do-mps-want-to-change-12488364

and the Police, Crime and Sentencing Bill;

https://centralbylines.co.uk/amendments-to-the-governments-police-crime-and-sentencing-bill-is-an-assault-on-rights-to-protest/.

That’s in addition of course to the removal of our freedom of movement at the start of the year. Curiously, I haven’t seen a single anti-vaxxer, anti-masker, or anti-lockdown merchant express concern about any of these proposed measures. In fact if anything many seem all for them.

Why would that be?

[upthemaggies]

The government aren’t using covid as a stealth tactic to take away our rights. They’re already doing that in plain sight with the Nationality and Borders Bill;

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/what-is-the-nationality-and-borders-bill-why-is-it-so-controversial-and-what-do-mps-want-to-change-12488364

and the Police, Crime and Sentencing Bill;

https://centralbylines.co.uk/amendments-to-the-governments-police-crime-and-sentencing-bill-is-an-assault-on-rights-to-protest/.

That’s in addition of course to the removal of our freedom of movement at the start of the year. Curiously, I haven’t seen a single anti-vaxxer, anti-masker, or anti-lockdown merchant express concern about any of these proposed measures. In fact if anything many seem all for them.

Why would that be?


Political bias.
We all support measures that won't effect us today in the belief they won't lead to measures that will effect us tomorrow.

Obviously, you can't have a complete free for all and the opposite extreme is the other road to hell. Somehow we have to keep our balance but there's an awful lot of people now rocking the boat and then the other side have to try and rock it back the other way to stay afloat.

[optipez]

Political bias.
We all support measures that won't effect us today in the belief they won't lead to measures that will effect us tomorrow.

Obviously, you can't have a complete free for all and the opposite extreme is the other road to hell. Somehow we have to keep our balance but there's an awful lot of people now rocking the boat and then the other side have to try and rock it back the other way to stay afloat.

UTM, you've been entirely reasonable and correct all the way through but you're wasting your time. People are frightened silly, silly being the word to the point of actively wanting to separate people in a form of health apartheid. It's monstrous but they don't care. There's no science for it, not a graph on the planet showing a lessening of transmission for mask wearing , no evidence that Covid passports slow transmission and definitely no sign of them saving lives.
After two years of restrictions, new laws, and a quite profound change in our behaviour and attitudes to each other the majority are still queuing up for one last final big push. This time lads, it's going to work. It isn't, Covid is endemic and we're nearly all going to get it over the next few years.
"Three weeks to flatten the sombrero", remember that, that was the first whopper and they'll keep telling them as long as you keep believing them.

[BanjoPie]

Many on here are divided regards covid vaccination however, regardless of one’s individual opinion, I wish everyone on this forum a very Merry Christmas and a happy new year. I am just about to leave the UK to spend the holiday period in Asia.

Stay safe everybody. COYP’s

[applepie2]

The government aren’t using covid as a stealth tactic to take away our rights. They’re already doing that in plain sight with the Nationality and Borders Bill;

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/what-is-the-nationality-and-borders-bill-why-is-it-so-controversial-and-what-do-mps-want-to-change-12488364

and the Police, Crime and Sentencing Bill;

https://centralbylines.co.uk/amendments-to-the-governments-police-crime-and-sentencing-bill-is-an-assault-on-rights-to-protest/.

That’s in addition of course to the removal of our freedom of movement at the start of the year. Curiously, I haven’t seen a single anti-vaxxer, anti-masker, or anti-lockdown merchant express concern about any of these proposed measures. In fact if anything many seem all for them.

Why would that be?

Exactly.

[upthemaggies]

UTM, you've been entirely reasonable and correct all the way through but you're wasting your time. .

Well, as Driller pointed out, I'm probably guilty of hyperbole to some extent but it's difficult to remain calm and rational at all times in the face of such hysteria.
I was pro lockdown and masks until around June 2020, there were very few voices opposed initially, I think the poster with the lone wolf avatar was the only one here making the case against over multiple posts. People are realising now that this vaccine is likely going to become a quarterly subscription, or at lleast 2-3 a year - which would be unprecedented, and then this is for a jab that's not gone through the correct procedure on safety and surrounded by secrecy, there's going to be a lot who won't be happy about that and will now be more willing to listen to people previously dismissed as conspiracy theorists and lumped in with crackpots talking about lizard people and hologram planes at 911.

Most of my family have been jabbed so I'm praying the only problem with it is that it's basically not worth the bother in the long run. It obviously does something, you can't kick start the body into making spike proteins and not have something going on, it is stimulating an immune response but there has to be a cost to that over time. If a cell or DNA can repair itself 5 times in your lifetime then it's not a big deal if it's being required to do so once every 16 years or so, if it's having to do that every four months and the effect is widespread in the body in key areas, then we've got a very serious problem.

[BanjoPie]

Well, as Driller pointed out, I'm probably guilty of hyperbole to some extent but it's difficult to remain calm and rational at all times in the face of such hysteria.
I was pro lockdown and masks until around June 2020, there were very few voices opposed initially, I think the poster with the lone wolf avatar was the only one here making the case against over multiple posts. People are realising now that this vaccine is likely going to become a quarterly subscription, or at lleast 2-3 a year - which would be unprecedented, and then this is for a jab that's not gone through the correct procedure on safety and surrounded by secrecy, there's going to be a lot who won't be happy about that and will now be more willing to listen to people previously dismissed as conspiracy theorists and lumped in with crackpots talking about lizard people and hologram planes at 911.

Most of my family have been jabbed so I'm praying the only problem with it is that it's basically not worth the bother in the long run. It obviously does something, you can't kick start the body into making spike proteins and not have something going on, it is stimulating an immune response but there has to be a cost to that over time. If a cell or DNA can repair itself 5 times in your lifetime then it's not a big deal if it's being required to do so once every 16 years or so, if it's having to do that every four months and the effect is widespread in the body in key areas, then we've got a very serious problem.

it seems you are beyond help UTM - I sincerely hope you don't succumb to the virus.

[upthemaggies]

it seems you are beyond help UTM - I sincerely hope you don't succumb to the virus.

I survived it. Probably will have trouble surviving the next one though at the cost of battling this one. By next one I mean a whole new virus, not a variant. Sars-2 variants are in the 3% variation I think. Can't remember the exact figures but your immune system will recognise 60% or so similar.

As an aside, I've heard Omicron isn't where you'd expect it to be if you plotted the graph with the swarm of tens of thousands of variants over the past two years. You'd expect it to be towards the end with recent variants, but it's apparently somewhere in the middle, which doesn't make sense unless it's been frozen in time and then released. Early days though and it will require further analysis.

[cher1]

There's no science for it, not a graph on the planet showing a lessening of transmission for mask wearing

That is completely wrong. Here you go:

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068302

[optipez]

That is completely wrong. Here you go:

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068302

Just to be clear, I've taken the vaccine so I'm not a conspiracy theorist, they have been shown to work and I absolutely believe in their efforts acy.
There's been a lot of studies on mask wearing the last couple of years and at best they've been inconclusive. It's very tricky to measure as even with control groups you can't necessarily give exact like for like experience in real world environments.
On observation from cities and countries with strong mask wearing protocols most studies haven't been able to nail their colours to the mast and say it's made a difference. Paris and New York have both been pretty strict and are both seeing remorsely rising cases at the moment.
If there was conclusive proof Whitty and Vallance would absolutely have put up a graph at their press conferences , Hancock would have been shouting from the roof tops and we would all have heard about it.
When pressed they've admitted that evidence is thin, which is a 180° U turn on their original comments when they told us not to wear them. It's also worth noting that the masks most people wear aren't top quality or even a good fit.
Personally and anecdotes are entirely unscientific, I've watched a lot of people I know who've followed the rules and protocols very closely and still some have succumbed but thankfully all got better.
I'll nail my colours to the mast though Cher and say that Covid is endemic now and that it's going to rip through the whole world, New Zealand included in the end as people will just get worn down in a war of attrition lasting years that can't be won.

[Elite_Pie]

There's been a lot of studies on mask wearing the last couple of years and at best they've been inconclusive.

I bloody hate wearing a mask, but the reason I wear one when I'm told is based on common sense more than any random stats. We know the virus is spread by droplets, so containing those droplets behind a mask seems a better option than expelling them to everyone else.

It's designed to protect others rather than yourself, that's why I comply.

[cher1]

Just to be clear, I've taken the vaccine so I'm not a conspiracy theorist, they have been shown to work and I absolutely believe in their efforts acy.
There's been a lot of studies on mask wearing the last couple of years and at best they've been inconclusive. It's very tricky to measure as even with control groups you can't necessarily give exact like for like experience in real world environments.
On observation from cities and countries with strong mask wearing protocols most studies haven't been able to nail their colours to the mast and say it's made a difference. Paris and New York have both been pretty strict and are both seeing remorsely rising cases at the moment.
If there was conclusive proof Whitty and Vallance would absolutely have put up a graph at their press conferences , Hancock would have been shouting from the roof tops and we would all have heard about it.
When pressed they've admitted that evidence is thin, which is a 180° U turn on their original comments when they told us not to wear them. It's also worth noting that the masks most people wear aren't top quality or even a good fit.
Personally and anecdotes are entirely unscientific, I've watched a lot of people I know who've followed the rules and protocols very closely and still some have succumbed but thankfully all got better.
I'll nail my colours to the mast though Cher and say that Covid is endemic now and that it's going to rip through the whole world, New Zealand included in the end as people will just get worn down in a war of attrition lasting years that can't be won.

Some of the very early studies were inconclusive, but the evidence is more robust now. That piece in the BMJ looked at many studies and masks do reduce transmission. Addenbrookes did a study using upgraded masks for all staff who were exposed to covid patients (rather than the bog standard ones) and they offered up to 100% protection.

Sadly, I completely agree with the last part of your post.

[upthemaggies]

Latest figures from the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre now showing the majority of Covid ICU patients in October and November were vaccinated.

[optipez]

I bloody hate wearing a mask, but the reason I wear one when I'm told is based on common sense more than any random stats. We know the virus is spread by droplets, so containing those droplets behind a mask seems a better option than expelling them to everyone else.

It's designed to protect others rather than yourself, that's why I comply.

I comp!y because it's the law, I think it's futile but hey ho.

[Elite_Pie]

Latest figures from the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre now showing the majority of Covid ICU patients in October and November were vaccinated.

Not surprising, because the vast majority of people are now vaccinated! Do you have stats on any correlation between jabbed and unjabbed people based on numbers in each group? Even then, it would need to be broken down into age groups, because the very young at least risk will be included as 'unjabbed' mainly because it hasn't been offered to them.

I've said before I don't like these links because it's easy to find one that says what you want it to say, but I'll break my rule and post this:

Unvaccinated people are 32 times more likely to die from coronavirus than those who have been doubled-jabbed, according to the figures from the Office for National Statistics.

You could probably find some obscure link to contradict that, but because it's a gamble I prefer to try and keep the odds in my favour.

[Elite_Pie]

I comp!y because it's the law, I think it's futile but hey ho.

I comply because it's the law, also because from what I've read it seems a sensible law.

[Mapperleypie]

Latest figures from the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre now showing the majority of Covid ICU patients in October and November were vaccinated.

Most people who die in road accidents in the UK were wearing a seatbelt. Seatbelts clearly don’t work.

[magpie_mania]

Not surprising, because the vast majority of people are now vaccinated! Do you have stats on any correlation between jabbed and unjabbed people based on numbers in each group? Even then, it would need to be broken down into age groups, because the very young at least risk will be included as 'unjabbed' mainly because it hasn't been offered to them.

I've said before I don't like these links because it's easy to find one that says what you want it to say, but I'll break my rule and post this:

Unvaccinated people are 32 times more likely to die from coronavirus than those who have been doubled-jabbed, according to the figures from the Office for National Statistics.

You could probably find some obscure link to contradict that, but because it's a gamble I prefer to try and keep the odds in my favour.

Just had a quick google.

From 1 day ago

The majority of patients in critical care with coronavirus are unvaccinated, hospital figures show.

'Staff at Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust - which runs the Queen's Medical Centre and Nottingham City Hospital - confirmed there were currently 14 patients with coronavirus in critical care. And they said that 12 of them weren't vaccinated.'

[magpie_mania]

I comply because it's the law, also because from what I've read it seems a sensible law.

I agree. I'm not sure that any research would be able to say categorically that masks work against Covid, because you need control figures which just aren't available.

To me it just seems sense that if someone coughs over me, I'm less likely to be infected if they are wearing a mask than if they aren't.

[Bernard_Bresslaw]

Not surprising, because the vast majority of people are now vaccinated! Do you have stats on any correlation between jabbed and unjabbed people based on numbers in each group? Even then, it would need to be broken down into age groups, because the very young at least risk will be included as 'unjabbed' mainly because it hasn't been offered to them.

I've said before I don't like these links because it's easy to find one that says what you want it to say, but I'll break my rule and post this:

Unvaccinated people are 32 times more likely to die from coronavirus than those who have been doubled-jabbed, according to the figures from the Office for National Statistics.

You could probably find some obscure link to contradict that, but because it's a gamble I prefer to try and keep the odds in my favour.

The '32 times' study was based on figures from December 2020 to September 2021. If you pull up the NHS England daily figures you will see the proportion of total deaths which occurred in January and February. Bear in mind that 5% vaccination was reached in early March 2021

[upthemaggies]

Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre link

https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports

[BanjoPie]

I agree. I'm not sure that any research would be able to say categorically that masks work against Covid, because you need control figures which just aren't available.

To me it just seems sense that if someone coughs over me, I'm less likely to be infected if they are wearing a mask than if they aren't.

Just bought Sonovia masks, patented by an Company in Israel. Has a layer of zinc in the material that kills the virus, 99.5% effective

[Bernard_Bresslaw]

Re stats for jabbed versus unjabbed deaths Public Health Scotland published figures for four weeks on 8th December. It confirms 92.9% vaccination of all over the age of 18 (a couple of percent lower when the threshold is lowered to 12). At page 56 it confirms 64 total unjabbed deaths and 361 double jabbed deaths.

[SwalePie]

All of the latest very detailed data on vaccine effectiveness among different age groups against transmission, infection, hospitalisation, mortality etc. is freely available in the weekly Vaccine Surveillance Report from the UK HSA.

Here's the latest edition published on Thursday. (Current effectiveness against hospitalisation is shown on page 8.)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1039677/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_49.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1039677/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_49.pdf)

[upthemaggies]

Re stats for jabbed versus unjabbed deaths Public Health Scotland published figures for four weeks on 8th December. It confirms 92.9% vaccination of all over the age of 18 (a couple of percent lower when the threshold is lowered to 12). At page 56 it confirms 64 total unjabbed deaths and 361 double jabbed deaths.

I saw the Scottish figures, shocking.

I'm mindful of coming across as looking smug when posting, but believe me I am s*** scared for my family and the impact this is going to have on day to day living, food supplies and general infrastructure - not being jabbed could well turn out to be like surviving a nuclear war and having to deal with the aftermath.
There comes a point where you can no longer listen to people who are being proved wrong time and time again (copyright Alan Shearer). You have to take notice of people who are making predictions that turn out to be true. What can we do? Be as damned healthy as you f**** can. Quit the vices, exercise, eat well and give yourself the best possible chance.

Boosters will likely have a short term effect but it won't last.

[cher1]

Latest figures from the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre now showing the majority of Covid ICU patients in October and November were vaccinated.

Yes, hence the booster programme. Protection from initial vaccinations is waning. If you consider that the %age of eligible adults/over 12s who have been double vaccinated is 80ish%, if vaccines were no longer having any effect at all, then vaccinated people would make up 80% of hospitalisations which is not the case . But so many people have been vaccinated, that a small percentage of that large group can make up the majority of hospitalisations if that makes sense?

Amongst people who've had the booster, the difference between the two groups will be much more obvious.

[SwalePie]

Yes, hence the booster programme. Protection from initial vaccinations is waning. If you consider that the %age of eligible adults/over 12s who have been double vaccinated is 80ish%, if vaccines were no longer having any effect at all, then vaccinated people would make up 80% of hospitalisations which is not the case . But so many people have been vaccinated, that a small percentage of that large group can make up the majority of hospitalisations if that makes sense?

Amongst people who've had the booster, the difference between the two groups will be much more obvious.

Taken from just one of the many articles interviewing ICU and critical care professionals:

"The patients that are being seen in intensive care units are predominantly people who have not being vaccinated,"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-59564984

and from Nottingham regarding Critical Care...

"The majority of patients in critical care with coronavirus are unvaccinated, hospital figures show.

Staff at Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust - which runs the Queen's Medical Centre and Nottingham City Hospital - confirmed there were currently 14 patients with coronavirus in critical care.

And they said that 12 of them weren't vaccinated."

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/majority-patients-critical-care-nottingham-6330441

[Mapperleypie]

Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre link

https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports

Have you ignored the chart on page 45 of the most recent report on there?

It shows the number of hospitalisations per 100,000 of those jabbed to those not. The difference is stark.

[cher1]

Re stats for jabbed versus unjabbed deaths Public Health Scotland published figures for four weeks on 8th December. It confirms 92.9% vaccination of all over the age of 18 (a couple of percent lower when the threshold is lowered to 12). At page 56 it confirms 64 total unjabbed deaths and 361 double jabbed deaths.

If we're looking at the same report, you've missed out the part on page 56 where it says that the latest mortality rate for those who are double vaccinated is 1.41 per 100,000. The mortality rate for the unvaccinated is 8.93 per 100,000. The raw numbers of deaths don't tell the whole story because the huge majority of people are vaccinated, so the two cohorts arent remotely comparable in size.

I was off with the %age of vaccinated people in a previous post- it's actually over 90% in Scotland, apologies for that, so the vaccinated cohort is even larger.

[upthemaggies]

Let's face it, we've gone from "vaccines will prevent you getting Covid" to "vaccines will prevent serious illness" and it's now about to shift to "vaccines prevent you from dying".

[magpie_mania]

Let's face it, we've gone from "vaccines will prevent you getting Covid" to "vaccines will prevent serious illness" and it's now about to shift to "vaccines prevent you from dying".

Not a bad reason really for having jabs!

[cher1]

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of catching covid, of being seriously ill from covid, and from death with covid. That seems a bit of a win to me.

[applepie2]

Let's face it, we've gone from "vaccines will prevent you getting Covid" to "vaccines will prevent serious illness" and it's now about to shift to "vaccines prevent you from dying".

Except we haven’t, apart perhaps from in the popular press. Scientists involved in assessing the effectiveness of vaccines have been far more cautious over their claims.

[i961pie]

Except we haven’t, apart perhaps from in the popular press. Scientists involved in assessing the effectiveness of vaccines have been far more cautious over their claims.

Well less people have died since vaccines have been introduced.

[upthemaggies]

Disclaimer: This post is for entertainment purposes only.

A friend of a friend of a friend of a friend in a mental asylum whose name is Aid, told me this.....

They were trying to develop vaccines with this new technology for Sars-1 and Mers, but there was a problem. In the early months of Covid-19 they were admitting a vaccine would be many years away, because they knew of the problem. The race was now on between rival states and drug companies to come up with a solution. To get around the problem, somebody came up with the bright idea that they could ask for the liability laws to be changed, as a matter of emergency ,so they could now bypass the problem and roll out the untested experimental vaccine to the public hoping the problem would not arise. A trial on humans was brought to a sudden halt when they decided it wouldn't be ethical to deny the control group vaccines in the face of the pandemic. The control group was eradicated.

Another crazy person in the asylum likened the human immune system to a finely tuned orchestra with a conductor, imagine - he said - a little replica of you holding the baton commanding the orchestra when to play, what to play, how fast and how loud. What this vaccine does is creep up behind the conductor, slits his throat, takes hold of the baton and then commands the orchestra to play at full volume, all instruments, as fast as and frantic as they possibly can. The conductor eventually collapses with fatigue and dies. The orchestra stops playing, exhausted and deficient. A booster sends in a new conductor and the process is repeated. What becomes of the orchestra? How long can they keep this up? Nobody knows. This has never been done before.

The above is, of course, crazy talk.

For those posting the links to the BBC and Nottingham Post articles, you absolutely should trust what they say and not actual official figures, only a crazy person would do that.

Stay sane and be well.

[applepie2]

Well less people have died since vaccines have been introduced.

Yes. What I was disagreeing with was a claim that the story has kept changing, from “the vaccines do everything we could have hoped” to “at least you might not die” (paraphrase). The vaccines have been very successful, but we are chasing a moving target, partly because we haven’t made any real effort to vaccinate the whole world.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think lockdown after lockdown is much of an answer to the long term problems.

[SwalePie]

Disclaimer: This post is for entertainment purposes only.

A friend of a friend of a friend of a friend in a mental asylum whose name is Aid, told me this.....

They were trying to develop vaccines with this new technology for Sars-1 and Mers, but there was a problem. In the early months of Covid-19 they were admitting a vaccine would be many years away, because they knew of the problem. The race was now on between rival states and drug companies to come up with a solution. To get around the problem, somebody came up with the bright idea that they could ask for the liability laws to be changed, as a matter of emergency ,so they could now bypass the problem and roll out the untested experimental vaccine to the public hoping the problem would not arise. A trial on humans was brought to a sudden halt when they decided it wouldn't be ethical to deny the control group vaccines in the face of the pandemic. The control group was eradicated.

Another crazy person in the asylum likened the human immune system to a finely tuned orchestra with a conductor, imagine - he said - a little replica of you holding the baton commanding the orchestra when to play, what to play, how fast and how loud. What this vaccine does is creep up behind the conductor, slits his throat, takes hold of the baton and then commands the orchestra to play at full volume, all instruments, as fast as and frantic as they possibly can. The conductor eventually collapses with fatigue and dies. The orchestra stops playing, exhausted and deficient. A booster sends in a new conductor and the process is repeated. What becomes of the orchestra? How long can they keep this up? Nobody knows. This has never been done before.

The above is, of course, crazy talk.

For those posting the links to the BBC and Nottingham Post articles, you absolutely should trust what they say and not actual official figures, only a crazy person would do that.

Stay sane and be well.

I posted the actual official figures (post #215) prior to backing them up with the news quotes (post #218).

[upthemaggies]

Just had talksport on briefly, they had breaking news of a Covid outbreak at Man Utd, also mentioning Spurs game being PPd.
They brought up the case of the Arsenal manager last year who was the first high profile person in English football to come down with it and how quickly it went from that to the season being cancelled. I think it was 3 weeks.

[matt_magpie]

Just had talksport on briefly, they had breaking news of a Covid outbreak at Man Utd, also mentioning Spurs game being PPd.
They brought up the case of the Arsenal manager last year who was the first high profile person in English football to come down with it and how quickly it went from that to the season being cancelled. I think it was 3 weeks.

It’s suddenly looking very bleak, will we be in Stadiums in Jan? Even worse as you alluded to, will there be any football?

[BanjoPie]

Yes. What I was disagreeing with was a claim that the story has kept changing, from “the vaccines do everything we could have hoped” to “at least you might not die” (paraphrase). The vaccines have been very successful, but we are chasing a moving target, partly because we haven’t made any real effort to vaccinate the whole world.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think lockdown after lockdown is much of an answer to the long term problems.

We are not in lockdown!

[upthemaggies]

It’s suddenly looking very bleak, will we be in Stadiums in Jan? Even worse as you alluded to, will there be any football?

Pretty sure I made a prediction pre-season that this season would be cancelled. At this stage however, if I had to bet money on it today, I'd be more inclined to back a winter break.

Behind closed doors or cancelling the season altogether when people have been vaxxed and getting their boosters is not going to be a good look, with most in the not-at-risk group under the impression that getting jabbed was supposed to be their passport to freedom and a return to normality.

[SwalePie]

It’s suddenly looking very bleak, will we be in Stadiums in Jan? Even worse as you alluded to, will there be any football?

It certainly is looking bleak. I wonder what the Reedtz Bros. are thinking at the moment.

[matt_magpie]

Pretty sure I made a prediction pre-season that this season would be cancelled. At this stage however, if I had to bet money on it today, I'd be more inclined to back a winter break.

Behind closed doors or cancelling the season altogether when people have been vaxxed and getting their boosters is not going to be a good look, with most in the not-at-risk group under the impression that getting jabbed was supposed to be their passport to freedom and a return to normality.

Agree, as discussed on here I’m still surprised how it’s not really been challenged how we have gone from vaccines stop 90% of people getting it to now even with 2 jabs and a booster there’s no guarantee, you have to ask, where do we go from here, tbf the take up and roll out has been extremely good in this country yet we are still in this position, you do ask yourself will this ever end.

[upthemaggies]

It certainly is looking bleak. I wonder what the Reedtz Bros. are thinking at the moment.

Imagine Derby having to start another season on minus 21 points.
Dover starting another campaign in the 5th tier would be hilarious.

[applepie2]

We are not in lockdown!

Indeed we aren’t, but we may be soon. I am still waiting for data on hospitalisation and death rates with Omicron, and hoping that they will be better than feared.

[Robertomac]

Does it look bleak because of what we're personally finding? Or does it look bleak because of the wall to wall doom mongering? As an example, going to the match yesterday felt pretty normal to me, but the Eastleigh game in March 2020 felt like we were on the cusp of something.

I caught part of a discussion on R4 this morning, making comparisons between now and the war. The main point was how the reporting then stuck more to simply relaying facts whereas now there's far greater use of sensationalism and hyperbole. I sense there's nothing the mainstream media would love more than another lockdown.

[BigFatPie]

It’s been a lovely thread, but the message is, get vaccinated. Please.

[Riverleeno]

Does it look bleak because of what we're personally finding? Or does it look bleak because of the wall to wall doom mongering? As an example, going to the match yesterday felt pretty normal to me, but the Eastleigh game in March 2020 felt like we were on the cusp of something.

I caught part of a discussion on R4 this morning, making comparisons between now and the war. The main point was how the reporting then stuck more to simply relaying facts whereas now there's far greater use of sensationalism and hyperbole. I sense there's nothing the mainstream media would love more than another lockdown.
The sensationalism and hyperbole is maybe why people are quick to blame 'the unvaccinated' for the current situation, and allows government to introduce - and a crap opposition to agree to - plans to exclude some people from day to day life despite the fact "it is still possible to catch and spread covid-19 even if fully vaccinated"* .
If you have had the vaccine why be worried if an unvaccinated person was to sit next to you at Meadow Lane, or think it right that the government could exclude people based on whether they have taken the vaccine when the vaccine doesn't stop transmission.

I'm concerned that people can be excluded from society based on whether they decline the covid-19 vaccine as I thought medical treatment wasn't meant to be based on coercion.
Once COVID passes become accepted I would worry this or future governments might mandate other medical choices to suit their agenda rather than letting the individual decide.


*gov.uk

[Lullapie]

For whatever reason you’ve neglected to mention that NZ has had a grand total of 44 deaths due to Covid.

One reassuring bit about this pandemic is that it’s been demonstrated time and again that people on the right of the political spectrum have an ability to talk sh!t on a whole range of issues.

You are such an idiot sometimes. Good bit of research, but I'll point out where you fall down. Some of the cases that have been reported as 'Covid Deaths' have nothing to do with Covid, but are just reported to increase the level of fear within the country (see below for the latest case that was reported). A man shot and killed in his driveway was reported as a Covid death.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-shooting-new-lynn-victim-robert-hart-tests-positive-for-covid-19/J7GON3TOB44563L4WWJYTUZNCQ/

My comment has nothing to do with politics but with the slow removal of civil liberties. You are the expert on nothing but 'sh!t' as you put it.

You neglect to add about the the massive increase in suicides and also the undiagnosed cancers and other life threatening, treatable illnesses that have been missed due to lockdowns. Mind you, only having one eye, you wouldn't see both sides would you? And that one eye is on the top of your head.

[Lullapie]

A very good idea. Not many takers I’d guess.

How about people who are obese or smoke, should they sign their rights away too?

[magpie_mania]

The sensationalism and hyperbole is maybe why people are quick to blame 'the unvaccinated' for the current situation, and allows government to introduce - and a crap opposition to agree to - plans to exclude some people from day to day life despite the fact "it is still possible to catch and spread covid-19 even if fully vaccinated"* .
If you have had the vaccine why be worried if an unvaccinated person was to sit next to you at Meadow Lane, or think it right that the government could exclude people based on whether they have taken the vaccine when the vaccine doesn't stop transmission.

I'm concerned that people can be excluded from society based on whether they decline the covid-19 vaccine as I thought medical treatment wasn't meant to be based on coercion.
Once COVID passes become accepted I would worry this or future governments might mandate other medical choices to suit their agenda rather than letting the individual decide.


*gov.uk

It is still possible to catch Covid even if fully vaccinated, but much less likely, and if you do, much less likely to die or have serious illness . Some have used the seatbelt example, it's still possible to get seriously injured when wearing one, so there's no point.

I am not sure I agree with Covid passes etc (anyone can manufacture a negative LFT) but I don't agree with your last sentence.

[BigFatPie]

How about people who are obese or smoke, should they sign their rights away too?

Dunno. Can you catch smoking or obesity?

[upthemaggies]

So we're censoring actual Boris Johnson quotes now?

[upthemaggies]

Japan now taking side effects from the vaccine very seriously, emphasizing informed consent and bodily autonomy. Warnings being put on vaccines known to cause heart issues.

[Lullapie]

A great piece by Neil Oliver. Well said Neil

https://youtu.be/d-G2doK-pJw

[upthemaggies]

A great piece by Neil Oliver. Well said Neil

https://youtu.be/d-G2doK-pJw


To be honest, I think this variant does have the potential to become a very serious problem in countries that are heavily vaccinated, the contrast in panic between the UK and South Africa speaks volumes. We need to be reading between the lines and think about what's mot being said.

As things stand, my prediction is that we will eventually reach the stage where we will need to have lockdowns, segregation etc. to protect vaccinated people (or at least the older and vulnerable among them) as the window of 'protection' offered by the vaccines ever narrows as the virus adapts and evolves in the reservoir of vaxxed with waning effectiveness.

[cher1]

Informed consent is good medicine. I was certainly warned specifically about myocarditis/pericarditis before having a booster on Friday. The cases seem to be mostly in younger males, and the study I looked at showed that in the US, in males under 30, there had been no deaths from myocarditis due to the vaccine. Most cases were mild or moderate.

The reality is that every medicine and medical or surgical procedure carry a risk, however tiny. The evidence for any age group still shows that is safer to be vaccinated than not to be vaccinated.

As for Japan, their vaccination rates is now amongst the highest in the world, so informed consent would appear to lead to most people choosing to be vaccinated.

[cher1]

As things stand, my prediction is that we will eventually reach the stage where we will need to have lockdowns, segregation etc. to protect vaccinated people (or at least the older and vulnerable among them) as the window of 'protection' offered by the vaccines ever narrows as the virus adapts and evolves in the reservoir of vaxxed with waning effectiveness.

I don't understand this. Vaccinated people (even as protection wanes) are less likely to catch covid than unvaccinated people. So surely they are a lesser concern in terms of needing protection. Why don't the unvaccinated also need protection?

[macstop]

A great piece by Neil Oliver. Well said Neil

https://youtu.be/d-G2doK-pJw

I am completely with Neil on this matter, but my biggest fear is where the damn thing came from, it certainly did not come from bats, and if senator Paul Rand is correct we should be real scared, because this deadly stuff is still being made in China, and not by the Chinese.

P.S. if you all want to get scared of dying, get cancer like i did 14 months ago, i have had covid at the same time and that was a breeze, and i believe my immune system is stronger than any vax, but of cause no one is willing to test me.