What’s The West’s Next Move?

[baggieal]

Bombs landing 15 miles from the Polish border and Ukraine continually being erased from the map!!

More sanctions? Moving away from Russian energy even more quickly even if it plunges some countries in darkness/companies go bust?

Why are Putin’s inner circle slating the West and some of their children are living in mansions in London? Should citizenship and visas not be revoked so they are deported? Abromovich has Portuguese citizenship so again can this not be revoked? Surely in the time of war the government should call the shots rather than old judges who should have retired gracefully?

What’s the end game as clearly Putin will not be happy until the key cities are razed and the civilians massacred?

Then to think people go to tourist attractions where the Jews were massacred and say - never again! But it’s happening again now and everyone is looking on pretending it will go away!

Meanwhile sleepy Joe who should be playing dominoes and whist drive just says it’s WW3 if we get involved. Crazy how the worlds future is in the hands of two guys who would be more suited for a Saga holiday! Crazy!

[Dubbag]

Bombs landing 15 miles from the Polish border and Ukraine continually being erased from the map!!

More sanctions? Moving away from Russian energy even more quickly even if it plunges some countries in darkness/companies go bust?

Why are Putin’s inner circle slating the West and some of their children are living in mansions in London? Should citizenship and visas not be revoked so they are deported? Abromovich has Portuguese citizenship so again can this not be revoked? Surely in the time of war the government should call the shots rather than old judges who should have retired gracefully?

What’s the end game as clearly Putin will not be happy until the key cities are razed and the civilians massacred?

Then to think people go to tourist attractions where the Jews were massacred and say - never again! But it’s happening again now and everyone is looking on pretending it will go away!

Meanwhile sleepy Joe who should be playing dominoes and whist drive just says it’s WW3 if we get involved. Crazy how the worlds future is in the hands of two guys who would be more suited for a Saga holiday! Crazy!

Watch out for another "False flag" operation, either by Russia of someone aligned with NATO...
Russia may strike logistics in bordering country...to test NATO's resolve......
OR
An attack organized by a smaller NATO country....to try and help Ukraine......by bringing NATO in..
Take your pick......there aren't many cards left in the deck at this stage.....

[phild]

The Russians want Ukraine to recognise Russian control of Crimea and the independence of the eastern pro Russia regions of Donetsk and Luhansk and a constitutional change which commits Ukraine to be neutral and not to join the EU or even NATO. Russia have said they recognise that Ukraine is an independent state.

Why are these aims unacceptable? Russia does not want to take over the country. Based on what Russia deems acceptable why cant it be used as a basis to broker a peace deal? I have not heard anything from western leaders about peace at all just more sanctions, more firepower to Ukraine, more boycotts, no fly zones. Why are the western leaders wanting escalation to this conflict?

These flippin sanctions are going to hit us very hard, energy, fuel and food prices will continue to sky rocket. These are the sort of rises that would take effect if we were actually in a war, which supposedly we are not.

Next step is to debate Putins aims and perhaps give him what he wants or even some/part of. We cant go around trying to ensure Putin fails completely and if/when he does then it could mean direct confrontation with Russia and that is not in the best interests for anyone. In my Stop talking war and war mongering and start discussing peace.

[baggieal]

The Russians want Ukraine to recognise Russian control of Crimea and the independence of the eastern pro Russia regions of Donetsk and Luhansk and a constitutional change which commits Ukraine to be neutral and not to join the EU or even NATO. Russia have said they recognise that Ukraine is an independent state.

Why are these aims unacceptable? Russia does not want to take over the country. Based on what Russia deems acceptable why cant it be used as a basis to broker a peace deal? I have not heard anything from western leaders about peace at all just more sanctions, more firepower to Ukraine, more boycotts, no fly zones. Why are the western leaders wanting escalation to this conflict?

These flippin sanctions are going to hit us very hard, energy, fuel and food prices will continue to sky rocket. These are the sort of rises that would take effect if we were actually in a war, which supposedly we are not.

Next step is to debate Putins aims and perhaps give him what he wants or even some/part of. We cant go around trying to ensure Putin fails completely and if/when he does then it could mean direct confrontation with Russia and that is not in the best interests for anyone. In my Stop talking war and war mongering and start discussing peace.


It’s up to the Ukrainians if they want part of their country siphoned off and be poorer without strategic ports. They are proud people and want to fight the murderers until their last breath. Even all the 3 million refugees ( unlike those who come on boats ) they don’t want to seek sanctuary in other countries - they want to go home to the country they love,

Could you negotiate with Hitler? So why would we be able to negotiate with a 69 year old psycho who probably will be dead in less than 20 years!! Maybe this is one reason why he does not care!

If the U.K. was invaded by Russia would we give away London and strategic ports like Dover just to keep the peace!

Everyone to their own. I have been brought up on kindness and compassion so if prices rocket or my company goes bust to save woman and children - so be it!

Whatever the end game is we should completely move away from all business connected with Russia and perhaps start this exercise too with China.

To think these people are fighting huge bombs with petrol bombs etc and leaving their women and kids to escape. I salute them! On the other hand the Afghans who were trained ran away like chickens and didn’t want to die to defend their land. God be with these Ukrainians and hope those Russian soldiers who will know right from wrong - get their Just rewards!

Best thing with a bully is to stand up to them!
Over to you Sleepy Joe - another old fart who should gracefully take a back seat!

[phild]

I share your sentiments Al. Ukraine should be able to form allies with anyone they see fit who could help them fight Russia. But sentiment aint gonna end the conflict. There must be a more nuanced approach. Putin aint Hitler and big and as mighty Western countries are we cant simply defeat every dictator and aggressor that comes along proof of which is Western countries losing conflicts in Vietnam Syria afganny etc

Time to take stock and make some hard headed choices about some concessions as us defending Ukraine may be a price too far considering that Ukraine is not part of NATO. Putin is in league with the devil for sure but mutually destructive situations are always best resolved with the least amount of harm.

[baggieal]

I share your sentiments Al. Ukraine should be able to form allies with anyone they see fit who could help them fight Russia. But sentiment aint gonna end the conflict. There must be a more nuanced approach. Putin aint Hitler and big and as mighty Western countries are we cant simply defeat every dictator and aggressor that comes along proof of which is Western countries losing conflicts in Vietnam Syria afganny etc

Time to take stock and make some hard headed choices about some concessions as us defending Ukraine may be a price too far considering that Ukraine is not part of NATO. Putin is in league with the devil for sure but mutually destructive situations are always best resolved with the least amount of harm.


See your point Phil but don’t think the Ukrainians would agree we are defending it! We are supplying ammo and looking on but at least it’s being used where in Afghanistan it was given to the Taliban when the locals ran away, So much about defending their country!

Whatever the outcome we should never deal with Russia again so they are isolated. We should also throw out all these Oligarchs who are money laundering. We should also explore alternative markets to China too who cosy up to Russia too.

Sad though when two old chaps in Russia and the US can call the world shots when the younger generation have got their full lives to live. I don’t care about me as getting to sixty but do care for all those at school etc who have already had two years of their lives ruined with Covid!

Seems like Covid has disappeared Phil with what’s going on in Ukraine. Funny old world😭

PS - what next injections and vaccinations because of radiation/chemical weapons! GP Surgery actually phoned me last week and nearly fell off my chair in shock - about a flu jab! Why the hell would I want a flu jab as never had flu in my life as just open the windows😭

[Dubbag]

Seems like Covid has disappeared Phil with what’s going on in Ukraine. Funny old world��

Eh....NO....but understand what you mean.......it is growing in the communities...I am off this week...but already we have gone from 400 c-19 patients to nearly 980 in just under two weeks.......China is having problems.....so as it continues to circulate it may very well die out when Nukes start falling and the radiations does its thing......:O

[WBA1955]

See your point Phil but don’t think the Ukrainians would agree we are defending it! We are supplying ammo and looking on but at least it’s being used where in Afghanistan it was given to the Taliban when the locals ran away, So much about defending their country!

Whatever the outcome we should never deal with Russia again so they are isolated. We should also throw out all these Oligarchs who are money laundering. We should also explore alternative markets to China too who cosy up to Russia too.

Sad though when two old chaps in Russia and the US can call the world shots when the younger generation have got their full lives to live. I don’t care about me as getting to sixty but do care for all those at school etc who have already had two years of their lives ruined with Covid!

Seems like Covid has disappeared Phil with what’s going on in Ukraine. Funny old world😭

PS - what next injections and vaccinations because of radiation/chemical weapons! GP Surgery actually phoned me last week and nearly fell off my chair in shock - about a flu jab! Why the hell would I want a flu jab as never had flu in my life as just open the windows😭

Funny you should mention Covid, the R rate is still the same as when we were all in lockdown, and it's still 0.2% of getting a severe dose.

[baggieal]

Eh....NO....but understand what you mean.......it is growing in the communities...I am off this week...but already we have gone from 400 c-19 patients to nearly 980 in just under two weeks.......China is having problems.....so as it continues to circulate it may very well die out when Nukes start falling and the radiations does its thing......:O


As you know Dubs - it was said in jest! Any initial thoughts on this new strain - is it weak?

Is there any good news at the moment FFS?

[Dubbag]

As you know Dubs - it was said in jest! Any initial thoughts on this new strain - is it weak?

Is there any good news at the moment FFS?

The good news is we are very close to the bottom.....the bad news is no amount of but plugs will stop the shyte that is coming....that said.....life is good none the less...


Keeping looking up!!...

[Dubbag]

Funny you should mention Covid, the R rate is still the same as when we were all in lockdown, and it's still 0.2% of getting a severe dose.

Well considering all the vaccinated and all the natural immunity in society...it should be......so continue to enjoy life....:heart:

[Omegstrat6]

I have believed all along that ultimately any peace agreement would likely involve Ukraine giving up both areas of Donetsk and Luhansk that wish to be part of Russia (Crimea was already lost before the invasion). This might seem reasonable if the vast majority in these regions want to return to the Russian fold. Similarly, any such peace may also mean that whilst it's soverignty should be guaranteed, Ukraine cannot join NATO.

The problem, of course, is Putin himself. When Hitler annexed the Sudentenland in 1939 many thought this in itself not entirely unreasonable as this region was inhabited primarily by German speakers who wished to be part of Germany-but we all know that Hitler wanted more and he proceeded to take the rest of Czechoslavakia as well as then moving on Poland. Similarly, Putin wants more of Ukraine. He wants its natural resources, it's industry and it's agriculture and if he cannot physically take the whole country he wants to at least install a puppet regime.

But Putin's actions in Ukraine cannot now be forgotten -or forgiven-and he has shown himself to be another Hitler or Stalin whose word cannot be trusted. Doubtless he thought that he could take Ukraine far quicker and force changes through before the West could properly respond but he grossly miscalculated Ukrainian resistance and probably the strength of Western support for them too. He has now painted himself into a corner and no way now will he be able to achieve his aims of limiting the military presence in the Easterly NATO countries that he perceives as Western aggression. In fact, his actions have achieved the very opposite!

I have always thought that, however unpalatable, the old hard-line stance of not negotiating with terrorists was ultimately a block to peace, especially in situations where there was obviously large support for their aims if not their methods. Northern Ireland might be a case in point. One man's terrorist can, indeed, be another man's freedom fighter. Aside from the possible exceptions in Donestk and Luhansk however, this is clearly not the case here but that does not mean that all efforts to negotiate with Putin should not continue. The obvious problem though is finding a solution that may suit both parties that will also be enough to ensure a level of stability going forward. Russia gaining the disputed areas of Donestk and Luhansk and NATO offering assurances that Ukraine will not be allowed to join may ultimately still be something that Ukraine would have to agree to, but Putin's illegal invasion cannot be without consequences. There must be caveats and Putin must surely pay reparations for the enormous damage he has caused to Ukraine and it's people through his illegal invasion. He is never going to agree to that though as it would make him lose face and look weak. He is not someone, I believe, who can be reasonably negotiated with.

The more Putin lashes out and escalates his war in Ukraine, the more likely it seems that this will ultimately bring in direct action by NATO forces. This might be either accidental or deliberate attacks on neighbouring NATO countries such as Poland as the conflict nears their borders or else actions by these countries themselves in response to perceived Russian threats. Almost certainly Putin will spin it via a False Flag operation or otherwise to be down to Western aggression. The moot question is whether the Russian government would really support Putin as far as allowing this to escalate into a NATO-Russian war especially given current shortcomings of their military operation in Ukraine and the increasing bite of economic sanctions. Can only pray that they would not.

[wbaliquidator]

Whilst there are many valid logical points made about this dreadful situation at the end of the day the whole world is trying to second guess one man.
A man who has a closed mind with Psychopathic tendencies.
I’m in no doubt that this will lead to Putins destruction but there is a real possibility he will take the rest of humanity with him

[WBA1955]

I have just been looking at the world map, and when he has finished with Ukraine I reckon the next countries I in his sights will be Estonia, Latvia and Finland. This would give him access to the Baltic sea.
He has thought this through, he is many things but not mad.
What would we do to stop this happening? Any confrontation would lead to WW3.

[SwedishBaggie]

I have just been looking at the world map, and when he has finished with Ukraine I reckon the next countries I in his sights will be Estonia, Latvia and Finland. This would give him access to the Baltic sea.
He has thought this through, he is many things but not mad.
What would we do to stop this happening? Any confrontation would lead to WW3.

Yes, mad is one of his most outstanding traits. Stupid, unintelligent maybe not.

Attacking Finland would be digging his own grave.

[mickd1961]

Yes, mad is one of his most outstanding traits. Stupid, unintelligent maybe not.

Attacking Finland would be digging his own grave.

Attacking Finland would be digging ALL of our graves Tomas.

You lot in Sweden are in a most uncomfortable spot as well.

It must be playing on your minds over there?

[SwedishBaggie]

Attacking Finland would be digging ALL of our graves Tomas.

You lot in Sweden are in a most uncomfortable spot as well.

It must be playing on your minds over there?

Well, we’ve been here quite some time… 😊

And, the old all mighty Soviet Union never touched Finland (post WW 2) or Sweden, there must be a reason for that.

And, personally, I am not the worrying kind… 😎

[baggieal]

Well, we’ve been here quite some time… 😊

And, the old all mighty Soviet Union never touched Finland (post WW 2) or Sweden, there must be a reason for that.

And, personally, I am not the worrying kind… 😎


Me neither Tomas as almost had my life so why worry about a deluded 69 year old codger! I do worry though about the younger generation what with their unnecessary vaccination shots in the arms and now seeing mass murder in Europe. What next vaccination shots for chemical weapons? At least if they dropped a bomb on the Hawthorns some of our lazy t wats called players might be stirred into action!

PS - the V sign definitely won’t be V for victory against Fulham that’s for sure😎

[WBA1955]

Germany have moved troops into Lithuania, they haven't had this much fun for years.

[mickd1961]

Germany have moved troops into Lithuania, they haven't had this much fun for years.

Have the Germans sent troops into Poland yet?

[baggieal]

Have the Germans sent troops into Poland yet?


Some would perhaps hope Putin sends something into Poland to stir NATO. Such a hard man Putin at 69 - surprised he’s not on a Saga holiday in the med at his age! By the law of average he’s probably only got another 15 years left!

[WBA1955]

What we are watching is history in the making and possibly the start of a new world order.

[phild]

What we are watching is history in the making and possibly the start of a new world order.

yep its a comin

[mickd1961]

What we are watching is history in the making and possibly the start of a new world order.

We need a new World War, it’s been far too long since the last one.

I mean, it’s not like we have anything else going on is it!?


With Covid on its last legs we need something else for governments to control us with and to kill off a few million peasants.


White flag production in Italy has been ramped up just in case.

[WBA1955]

Russia has asked China for military equipment.
Crickety Wickety was interviewed on tv yesterday and was asked if sanctions would be taken against China if they supported Russia.
Like all conservative minister's he wouldn't give a straight answer but my impression was that some sanctions would be put in place.
It would be one way to get rid of Lai... and Fosun 😜 and restore the Black Country pecking order.
Seriously though, it shows how poor a military nation Russia is when they struggle to beat Ukraine. No way would they want to be involved in WW3.
Then again Nostradamus predicted that the third anti christ would rise in the east, and China would overun a large part of the earth before being defeated.
Kim Jung anyone?

[Johnny on the spot 1]

Reading the posts on here , & i thought we had problems at the Albion ,

[Dubbag]

Russia has asked China for military equipment.
Crickety Wickety was interviewed on tv yesterday and was asked if sanctions would be taken against China if they supported Russia.
Like all conservative minister's he wouldn't give a straight answer but my impression was that some sanctions would be put in place.
It would be one way to get rid of Lai... and Fosun �� and restore the Black Country pecking order.
Seriously though, it shows how poor a military nation Russia is when they struggle to beat Ukraine. No way would they want to be involved in WW3.
Then again Nostradamus predicted that the third anti christ would rise in the east, and China would overun a large part of the earth before being defeated.
Kim Jung anyone?

Anti Christ is just that...ANTI CHRIST.
Against Christ.....take your pick from BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of anti Christs on the planet...

[Dubbag]

What we are watching is history in the making and possibly the start of a new world order.

History is always in the making....what is special about this time...is we are alive and can palpably feel the change on account of the speed at which events are now unfolding....it hasn't always been like this.
But today everything is speeded up...
Change is coming, of that there is no doubt...... a new world order?....yes.....place your bets.....cause you will be judged by them....LOL.

[Omegstrat6]

Not so sure about a NWO yet Dub! There has been much talk of this for years, and lockdown provided a breeding ground for such conspiracies, particularly on the internet. Most of the rumours involved the world's most powerful bad guys-Putin, Trump Xi Jinping-all working together with their illuminati masters to exert a global control but psychopaths don't play well together and certainly hasn't turned out like that has it!

The rumours about Russia seeking aid from China has been denied by both sides and, tbh, cannot really see them linking up to create a Sino-Russian pact v the West. Xi Jinping seems too sane for that and has obviously been watching the response to Putin's actions in Ukraine carefully given his own aspirations in the South China Sea and Taiwan. If true, however, this rumour says more about Russia than anything else and might indicate a weakening of its military might and the fact that the sanctions are starting to bite.

For Putin's part, he seems ever more reckless in his brinkmanship, whether that be threatening to attack those NATO countries from which the convoys of arms are coming into Ukraine or else veiled threats about a nuclear response. The Kremlin's latest statement seeks to justify Russia's escalating attacks on civilians by saying it is doing so only because of the West continuing to give Ukraine military aid. It does seem that Putin is becoming increasingly isolated as his "special operation" drags on into nearly it's third week but he has painted himself into a corner and I cannot see how he can extricate himself now with any credit left. The documentary from 2018 : "Putin: the new Tsar", currently being shown on BBC again, is pretty clear about both Putin's character and forecasts much of what has happened.

As to what happens in Ukraine, I believe that, if NATO does not become involved directly in an armed confrontation with Russia, that the conflict will continue for many weeks yet because the Ukrainians will still resist, the West will still supply arms and Putin ( who will not want to lose face) will continue on his path and ramp up his levels of destruction in order to try and salvage some claimed victories from his invasion. Ultimately, he cannot take or hold Ukraine and this failure and pressures at home as sanctions bite may see his downfall-but it will not be before Ukraine suffers yet more deaths and destruction.

Will any of this really create a New World Order though? I doubt it. Putin will be replaced and a weakened Russia will want to 're-connect with Western trade and business, China will remain a power to consider and even Sleepy Joe will support an increase in support for America's NATO alllies, most of whom will ramp up their own defence spending whilst being also keen to get back to global trading and improved domestic economic stability. As for the rest of the world, the current poverty, wars, violence and breach of human rights will continue as before whether in South America, The Middle East, Africa or India. Moreover, despite Western governments and businesses discovering some morality in their dealings with Putin and his rich cronies, they will continue to cosy up to other repressive regimes in the name of pragmatism, trade and making money (Boris is off to Saudi next week for talks).

It would be nice if the richer "developed" nations did more to help the poorer ones, worked harder to prevent violations of human rights across the globe and did far more to address climate and environmental concerns but I seriously doubt it. Bit like old Ringo's "love and peace" message. No doubt genuinely meant but a hangover from a Sixties naive belief that people could do better.

[westcountryvillain]

Spot on - I also think the Russian approach to China is a ploy by the US to force China to clarify their position on Russia and at the same time make Putin look weaker than his own people think he is.

[Dubbag]

.........
It would be nice if the richer "developed" nations did more to help the poorer ones, worked harder to prevent violations of human rights across the globe and did far more to address climate and environmental concerns but I seriously doubt it.
There is where your new world order is coming from......nature....
You don't think governments could do it...do you?
We are running out of everything.....clean water...clean air...clean nutrient rich soil...and not seriously addressing those issues....
But it is still doing it's thing.........