O/T:- thoughts on the outrage of Souness ‘it’s a man’s game’ comment

[Notts78]

Sky Sports pundit Graeme Souness says he does not regret describing football as "a man's game" after Chelsea's fiery 2-2 draw with Tottenham.

His comments drew criticism from Chelsea striker and Euro 2022 winner Beth England and ex-England international Eniola Aluko.

Souness was analysing the physical nature of the game and referee Anthony Taylor's approach.

"It's a man's game all of a sudden again," Souness said on Sunday.

"I think we've got our football back, as I would enjoy football - men at it, blow for blow, and the referee letting them get on with it."

Former Liverpool and Scotland midfielder Souness was sitting beside Karen Carney, who won 144 caps for England.

Presenter Dave Jones immediately added: "It's also a woman's game as well."

It followed a dramatic London derby at Stamford Bridge which ended in an angry confrontation between managers Thomas Tuchel and Antonio Conte. Both were shown red cards after the final whistle.

Aluko responded to Souness' remarks on social media, writing: "Awkward turtles, Graeme Souness talking about 'it's a man's game again' sat next to an England centurion Karen Carney, two weeks after the Lionesses end a 56-year wait and win European Championships. Come on. It's not OK."

England, who was in Sarina Wiegman's Euros-winning squad, said: "What a disgraceful thing to say after the summer this country has just seen."


Report
Speaking to Talksport on Monday, 69-year-old Souness said he regretted "not a word" of what he said in Sunday's broadcast.

"Let me explain," he said. "I've been advocating for years that the referees have such a major part to play in the success of the Premier League.

"We've got to be careful what we say today and I've not been very good at that, but we were becoming like other leagues.

"The refs were blowing the whistle all the time, the game didn't flow and it just wasn't a very good watch. Our game has always been unique, always been more meaty, more in our face, more intense and we've got away from that.

"Yesterday in my comments I said we've got our game back. That's the kind of football I remember playing. Our league will be better for it - we are back."

Later in a statement released through Sky, Souness said: "To clarify my comments from yesterday, I was referring to the two Premier League matches I watched live on Sunday afternoon, rather than the sport of football.

"Football is a game for everyone to enjoy."

To add some context. I watched the games and the above comments were made when saying football was a better watch as players are not getting cheap free kicks for the slightest contact. He was right in that the game flowed and players rolling round like they had been shot was minimal.

What are peoples thoughts on this? I’m intrigued to know whether anyone feels like me that literally nothing can be said due to fear of offending someone. The phrase ‘it’s a man’s game’ has always been the physical element of football for me, and I think Souness is the same. Players flying in to tackles etc.

[Old_pie]

When the Spurs player pulled Cucurella's hair the opportunity to state that football is now a woman's game was missed.

[BanjoPie]

Don't we live in a country that supposedly has free-speech! perhaps he should have said "its a persons game"

[bule1]

Overblown reaction in my opinion, I think he meant the term "man's game" to mean it is a physical game not a non contact sport where players roll over 20 times in apparent agony because someone trod on their shoelace.

[laddo]

Has there been genuine outrage?

[bule1]

Souness has had to defend his comments, thing is nowadays a few vocal people on line can make an issue larger than it is if they are given the platform to do it

[upthemaggies]

I wonder what John McGovern thinks.....


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIvOZIkXEAAPYUB?format=jpg&name=large

[uysapie]

Overblown reaction in my opinion, I think he meant the term "man's game" to mean it is a physical game not a non contact sport where players roll over 20 times in apparent agony because someone trod on their shoelace.

Vinnie Jones and Gazza springs to mind. Definitely a "man'sgame"!

[BigFatPie]

Don't we live in a country that supposedly has free-speech! perhaps he should have said "its a persons game"

We generally have ‘free speech’ as a country, I’m not sure you can say what you like on telly channels though…

Outrage is perhaps overstating the reaction to Souness’ comments, apart from the usual rent a quoters like Aluko. Sky have got the rights to the WSL so they’re probably more sensitive to it than most, and Karen Carney was sitting next to him. I don’t really see what was wrong with it, everyone knows what he meant. Men’s and women’s football is different.

[laddo]

The game had to be more physical back in Souness' day, because the pitches would make amateur rugby pitches of today look like centre court come winter.

Football is still very much a contact sport, the challenges still fly in faster than ever it's just followed by more rolls on the floor.

[Notts78]

The game had to be more physical back in Souness' day, because the pitches would make amateur rugby pitches of today look like centre court come winter.

Football is still very much a contact sport, the challenges still fly in faster than ever it's just followed by more rolls on the floor.

Is football really a contact sport like it used to be? Do challenges really still fly in? Bear in mind players can now get sent off for intent, whether they win the ball or not. It is possible to be sent off for tackling someone too hard. What the refs have been told to do is stop blowing up when there is minimal contact. Tough tackling has long gone.

[SmiffyPie]

The game had to be more physical back in Souness' day, because the pitches would make amateur rugby pitches of today look like centre court come winter.

Football is still very much a contact sport, the challenges still fly in faster than ever it's just followed by more rolls on the floor.I disagree with a couple of points there. Not sure of your age but the pitches in Souness's day were not that far behind those today (certainly the top three divisions) apart from the winter months (?) and had very little to do with the physical side of the game. Them days, you wanted the ball... you went for it!! That's the way the game was played. It's no bad thing that the Hunter, Smith, Souness, Keane, Bremneresque break yer leg tackles have been irradicated from the game but tackles don't go in thick and fast today (although you are spot on with regard to rolling around) ffs it's a contact game!! When was the last time you saw a full on defensive sliding tackle that hasn't been called a foul? That is the point he was ineffectively trying to make. I don't think for one minute that he was being dismissive of womens football it's just that people take offence so easily (and without thought, the same way such comments are made). I think his comment was a general comment aimed at official bodies that are steadily removing all contact from the game.

[Mark_Ross]

Two different issues here.

(1) Was his comment ***ist? I suppose so, if taken literally. Don't think any offence was intended. Like has been said, he was just referring to the physicality of the game.

(2) Football is evolving so that this physicality is diminishing. We might not like it, but it's probably necessary. Perhaps heading will be against the rules in a few years time.

[laddo]

I'm being slightly misquoted here.

It's not as much as a contact sport as it was for sure, but it's way OTT to claim it isn't contact sport. I'm sure Ronaldo would disagree after that 'proper' challenge he received on Saturday. It's just annoying when a great fair challenge see Dier on Ramos wrongly is punished due to what they see as excessive force and speed.

I agree it's certainly ain't a bad thing, I'd say it's a very good thing that the leg-breaking tackles of yesteryear have all but gone.

Agree tackles don't go in as thick (often) as past decades that blatantly clear to me. The two feet off the ground, and sliding lunges are vastly reduced.

But the game is far faster nowadays, you only have to watch games from the 80s and before to see a big difference. The players are IMO stronger, quicker and that should come as no surprise due to the advance in technology, strength and conditioning, diet etc. It's inevitable.

As for Souness' totally agree that's how I interpreted it too.

Its subjective but I can't agree regarding the pitches, some absolute shockers in 70s and 80s

[SmiffyPie]

Agree with that.
The game always was, and is, subjective and long may it be so.

[jackal2]

The standard and professionalism of women's football has improved immensely over the past 20 years or so, and the recent Euros victory has taken it to another level. The women's game doesn't need stupid, over-sensitive (and I believe insincere) reactions from self-publicists like Eniola Aluko to raise it's profile, in fact her remarks are more likely to undermine progress. Women's football is achieving ever higher levels of recognition on merit, because of the increasing quality of the product and the entertainment.

[Little15]

Two women offended about what (they interpreted wrongly) a man said about a game of mens football. Ok. Think most people understand what he was getting at in the context the comments were made.

[kill_the_drum]

The irony is the Women’s game is played far more like the ‘man’s game’ he was referring to!

[magpie_mania]

Anyone remember Souness deliberately taking Martin O'Neill out at ML? 'Hard man' or thug? Take your pick. Same with Keane who shamelessly admits he went out to injure someone.

Can't stand Souness as a pundit and whatever he claims he meant, his words were ill-judged imo.

[drillerpie]

We generally have ‘free speech’ as a country, I’m not sure you can say what you like on telly channels though…

Outrage is perhaps overstating the reaction to Souness’ comments, apart from the usual rent a quoters like Aluko. Sky have got the rights to the WSL so they’re probably more sensitive to it than most, and Karen Carney was sitting next to him. I don’t really see what was wrong with it, everyone knows what he meant. Men’s and women’s football is different.

I think the outrage is silly, obviously, and I also thought the presenter made Carney visibly uncomfortable when trying to cram in some awkward flattery about how her hard tackling was somehow comparable in the context of Souness / a feisty London derby.

[LaxtonLad]

Don't we live in a country that supposedly has free-speech! perhaps he should have said "its a persons game"

Saying it's a man's game is free speech is it not?

[LaxtonLad]

When the Spurs player pulled Cucurella's hair the opportunity to state that football is now a woman's game was missed.

Serves the poser right. Get it cut or wear a bathing cap, a nice pink one with kittens on it, you fairy.

[Notts78]

Serves the poser right. Get it cut or wear a bathing cap, a nice pink one with kittens on it, you fairy.

Had Souness said this, imagine which community would be booting off.
Kurt Zouma’s team mates would also be fuming if he wore this bathing cap against WHU. They moaned as a player continued to make cat noises at KZ…

[crazyfists]

Everyone knows what he meant, you can't say alot of things thesedays without someone on social media not getting it. Don't like Souness as a pundit but nothing wrong with what he said. Aluko takes herself too seriously anyway.

[slack_pie]

Everyone knows what he meant, you can't say alot of things thesedays without someone on social media not getting it. Don't like Souness as a pundit but nothing wrong with what he said. Aluko takes herself too seriously anyway.

I think the people who complained mostly do get what he meant deep down. But for whatever reason, they are driven by a need to be outraged. Anything to back up their victim mentality and idea that things are systematically and deliberately stacked against them. At least that's how it looks to me.

[DaveSmithRules]

I haven't heard Souness' comment in context. But genderising hard tackling in football as being a purely male trait is a bit ***ist. It's also unfortunate timing, coming a couple of weeks after England's ladies managed to eclipse everything our mene team have done in the last 56 years.

For those arguing about free speech, it goes both ways. So far as I know no-one has executed Souness for his dinosaur comment. But it's fair enough for other people to pull him up on it too.

[DaveSmithRules]

For clarity above I said s e x i s t

[Notts78]

I haven't heard Souness' comment in context. But genderising hard tackling in football as being a purely male trait is a bit ***ist. It's also unfortunate timing, coming a couple of weeks after England's ladies managed to eclipse everything our mene team have done in the last 56 years.

For those arguing about free speech, it goes both ways. So far as I know no-one has executed Souness for his dinosaur comment. But it's fair enough for other people to pull him up on it too.

You should definitely have a listen to what he said to gain further context. It wasn’t about tough tackling in isolation, but more about the whole physical aspect of the games he had watched including players rolling around (which has reduced significantly since referees don’t blow for free kicks).
I read somewhere that ‘it’s a man’s game’ as a phrase has been used to differentiate the men from the boys, rather than man v woman. This is the context I believe many feel Souness intended.

[drillerpie]

You should definitely have a listen to what he said to gain further context. It wasn’t about tough tackling in isolation, but more about the whole physical aspect of the games he had watched including players rolling around (which has reduced significantly since referees don’t blow for free kicks).
I read somewhere that ‘it’s a man’s game’ as a phrase has been used to differentiate the men from the boys, rather than man v woman. This is the context I believe many feel Souness intended.

I don't think it matters whether you take it in or out of context - he was right either way.

In context it was obvious what he was saying, but even if we deliberately take his comments out of context, men are on average faster, stronger and more aggressive, so talking about this aspect of football as being a man's game is logical.

I can absolutely guarantee you that being tackled by the toughest tackling female footballer in the WSL and by the least tough tackling footballer in the PL are not comparable. Everyone knows this, including Karen Carney who literally squirmed in her seat as the presenter tried to make a false equivalence between her tackles and the point Souness was trying to make.

Also men's football is currently played more and watched more than women's football, so football is also overwhelmingly a man's game from that perspective too.

I don't see any way someone can attack Souness for this in good faith. It's a way to get your name trending on Twitter or get your name in the papers for a day, nothing more.

[crazyfists]

I think the people who complained mostly do get what he meant deep down. But for whatever reason, they are driven by a need to be outraged. Anything to back up their victim mentality and idea that things are systematically and deliberately stacked against them. At least that's how it looks to me.

Yeah true and to get more subscribers to their account. The womens team was well supported this summer, I hope that translates into more attending the league next season, we are well aware of how good the women were this summer and I enjoyed watching it. I enjoyed most the lack of rolling around and gamesmanship so each part of football has its own pluses and minuses. The comment was used so they be the victim as you say as they know what he meant. Social media alot of the time is crap.

[upthemaggies]

I think it would also be fair to say that it was a game invented by men for men. That doesn't mean women can't play it. Growing up, I used to hear "It's a man's game" all time, but that didn't stop us boys from participating and getting on with it.
Some people leave their brussel sprouts on the plate, some people whine and cry about them until they get their ice cream. For people apparently so bothered about s3x!$t stereotypes, it's ironic that they're behaving like a bunch of snitch bag primary age school girls.

[the_anticlough]

we are well aware of how good the women were this summer and I enjoyed watching it. I enjoyed most the lack of rolling around and gamesmanship

Me too CF, it put the men's game to shame

[meoldlaner]

I don't think it matters whether you take it in or out of context - he was right either way.

In context it was obvious what he was saying, but even if we deliberately take his comments out of context, men are on average faster, stronger and more aggressive, so talking about this aspect of football as being a man's game is logical.

I can absolutely guarantee you that being tackled by the toughest tackling female footballer in the WSL and by the least tough tackling footballer in the PL are not comparable. Everyone knows this, including Karen Carney who literally squirmed in her seat as the presenter tried to make a false equivalence between her tackles and the point Souness was trying to make.

Also men's football is currently played more and watched more than women's football, so football is also overwhelmingly a man's game from that perspective too.

I don't see any way someone can attack Souness for this in good faith. It's a way to get your name trending on Twitter or get your name in the papers for a day, nothing more.

Absolutely spot on.
I get really peed off with people digging deep to find something controversial.

[crazyfists]

Me too CF, it put the men's game to shame

Definitely mate, just great to see two teams really wanting to win but not trying to cheat or get people sent off. Refreshing.

[queenslandpie]

Got himself in the news and made himself relevant. Gave the PC brigade something to cry about as a result.

Hardly an outrage in fact entirely predictable.

And relatively boring. Let me know if anything interesting happens.

[DaveSmithRules]

You should definitely have a listen to what he said to gain further context. It wasn’t about tough tackling in isolation, but more about the whole physical aspect of the games he had watched including players rolling around (which has reduced significantly since referees don’t blow for free kicks).
I read somewhere that ‘it’s a man’s game’ as a phrase has been used to differentiate the men from the boys, rather than man v woman. This is the context I believe many feel Souness intended.

I've taken your point on board and have just watched a clip of it. Tbh I don't think it shows much other than that he's a pundit using clumsy and outdated 'macho' language. I'm not offended by it, but I think it's ignorant in terms of the wider context of football in the UK right now.

The bizarre thing is that from what I've seen players rolling around feigning injury is something that is much more prevalent in the men's professional game than the women's. Tho admittedly I haven't watched enough 'boys' football to make a judgement on how much diving there is in that.

[i961pie]

Absolutely spot on.
I get really peed off with people digging deep to find something controversial.

You mean the 'I want to be offended brigade'

[applepie2]

You mean the 'I want to be offended brigade'

Is that the Men’s Brigade or the Boys’ Brigade?

[i961pie]

Is that the Men’s Brigade or the Boys’ Brigade?

The woke brigade.

[DaveSmithRules]

Ooh so apparently there's a "PC brigade", an "I want to be offended brigade" and a "woke brigade.' Who knew that brigades were making such a comeback, huh?

[laddo]

What's the opposite of the Woke Bridgade?

[DaveSmithRules]

This thread got me thinking. Two of the players in the England Womens Euros Squad used to play for Notts County Ladies (Alex Greenwood and Ellen White).

This probably makes them, internationally speaking, the most successful footballers ever to represent Notts County FC. Have we ever had any other players (or ex-players) who have won a Euros or World Cup with their country?

[upthemaggies]

This thread got me thinking. Two of the players in the England Womens Euros Squad used to play for Notts County Ladies (Alex Greenwood and Ellen White).

This probably makes them, internationally speaking, the most successful footballers ever to represent Notts County FC. Have we ever had any other players (or ex-players) who have won a Euros or World Cup with their country?

Martyn Busby won the Under 18s 1971 Euros playing for England.

[DaveSmithRules]

Nice!

I had a thought that Michael Emanalo might have won the African Nations Cup with Nigeria. But although the Super Eagles won it in 1994 (when he was actually playing for us) I don't think he was in their squad for that.

[the_anticlough]

I think Arthur Mann won Eurovision once

(or was that 'Brotherhood of....')

[Woodypie]

What's the opposite of the Woke Bridgade? Fell Asleep Brigade?

[Elite_Pie]

I think Arthur Mann won Eurovision once

(or was that 'Brotherhood of....')

Neil MacKenzie won five times on Countdown.

That must rank pretty high.

[laddo]

Fell Asleep Brigade?

:)

Living In The Past Brigade?

Better Back In My Day Yoof Brigade perhaps?

[forwardmagpie]

:)

Living In The Past Brigade?




Wasn’t Living in the past - Jethro Tull ?

[upthemaggies]

Wasn’t Living in the past - Jethro Tull ?


The writer of that song Ian Anderson explained the meaning to Mojo: "Lyrically it was a bit of a rejection of the swinging fashion of that post-Beatles, slightly hippy idealistic period," he said. "There were a lot of people talking pompously about love and peace and revolution and, you know, people then as now were quick to jump up and scream and shout, but they're not actually really quite sure what they're stamping their feet about."


We'll go walking out
While others shout of war's disaster
Oh, we won't give in
Let's go living in the past

Once I used to join in
Every boy and girl was my friend
Now there's revolution, but they don't know
What they're fighting

Let us close our eyes
Outside their lives go on much faster
Oh, we won't give in
We'll keep living in the past

[ancientpie]

Shouldn't that last line read

We'll keep living in the Pasta ?