A Clash of Footballing Philosophies

[the_anticlough]

There's not much point going around in circles on other threads about Baldwin, Cameron, 'the defending' 'a mistake' etc...

What's become clear is that the more LW double-downs on his football philosophy, strategy and preferences the more it jars with a certain section of our fanbase.

Yesterday we went to one of the bigger L2 clubs, played what can only be called a 3-2-4-1, 3 ball-playing defenders, a team packed with creators and bossed the game completely.
When have we ever seen a Notts team with that attacking balance? Wilko's team in the top flight? Moniz? It's f***in brilliant!
To be able to watch every game of your team playing this way is unbeatable entertainment.

Back 3s have been rare over the years. I used to associate it with Dutch football, Ajax and the Dutch National team of the early to mid 90s. 3 ball playing defenders, 2 holding playmakers in midfield and players like Overmars, Roy, Winter or Witschge out wide. Every team in the EFL made attempts over the years to move away from the flat back four. Great in theory, but in reality it was usually a sneaky way to play a back 5 with fans being asked to see players like DKE as 'wing-backs' and ask them to 'push up a bit'. Burchnall didn't want to play Nemane when he was sitting right under his nose for a year. Finally LW arrived to show us what a back 3 should really look like. And he's really going for it this season with Jones over Chicksen.

Full disclosure - now Ruben's gone, Baldwin and Cameron are my two favourite players. I also peg them as 2 of our best 4 players. Their swagger (if Kyle gets it back) and confidence to play is a massive part of our game and identity as a side.

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties. To their eyes we need four, tall, no nonsense defenders willing to play it long, a midfield hard man and a big target man up front...

Will LW's game bring success to Notts in L2? How much will he have to compromise and be pragmatic along the way? Will it fall flat on its face? We're going to find out. But who in their right mind wouldn't want to watch the team we put out yesterday? Seeing that dominance and potency is worth putting up with the odd mistake and goal conceded from them. We'll have dark times and setbacks but I believe LW and his team will keep their nerve and stick to their beliefs - as he did after Sutton. And we'll see how far playing our game takes us.

[MarcusCole]

I like the way the team play, when LW first came I was very critical of the team as they were just too negative and static but over the first month or so they reduced the amount of aimless back passing we has under previous manager.

The only real issue I have now is the sloppy mistakes we keep getting when the players turn off and then do a reckless back pass. We see it in every game and it shows not sign of ending.

[the_anticlough]

I like the way the team play, when LW first came I was very critical of the team as they were just too negative and static but over the first month or so they reduced the amount of aimless back passing we has under previous manager.

The only real issue I have now is the sloppy mistakes we keep getting when the players turn off and then do a reckless back pass. We see it in every game and it shows not sign of ending.

From the interviews, LW hopes its early season edginess and lack of mental focus which will tune in as we go along.
I think last year nerves played a part, due to the pressure to keep on winning and get out of that infernal league.

The mistakes we make are so avoidable and self-inflicted. We've got to be able to leave them behind.

[kill_the_drum]

I think some fans just don’t like any form of football that is played outside our own box and no amount of promotions or breaking records will change that. It will just be rationalised as we win despite that.
Every formation has a chink in the armour and ours is getting in behind us if the ball is turned over, or a wayward pass at the back. The bigger picture, so far, is that the reward is well worth the risk.
I get to go and watch Aston Villa quite a lot through work and under Emery they now play exactly the same formation/system as Notts. They went from relegation fodder to finishing 7th with virtually the same squad, yet the groans in the stands are exactly the same when they pass around the back.
For me personally I absolutely love the way we play. Dominating possession and infuriating oppositions is a joy to watch….especially when we’re winning!

[the_anticlough]

You're right - results will be the make or break of it, as always.

Isn't it good we're trying to play like teams 3 leagues above us? The more we plug into modern playing methods, the easier it will be for players/coaches to move up and their players move down (on loans, or after being released from top academies like Cameron, Nemane etc.)

[BigFatPie]

I’m not sure if it’s exactly what you’re talking about AC, but to me a perfect example yesterday was when Bostock knocked the ball back to Brindley prior to the first goal. The moans and groans were obvious around us, but then the ball went in and we scored.

LW was asked about it in his post match and his response was that from the free kick their defence is set, each defender knows who he’s marking and their line is organised. None of that is the case from the subsequent ball in. Simple but clever. ( to me anyway).

[The_Don_ORiordan]

I think there should always be room for discussion. I love the way we play, I’m a massive fan of LW but that does not nor should not make it impossible for me to comment on tactics, players etc.

I like Baldwin, I think if we can keep him fit, he’s going places, hopefully with Notts.

With Cameron though, I’d have to draw the line in agreeing with you. He’s not stepped up so far, and this downturn in form started long before this season.

I’m fairly sure were he not captain and results had not been so good he might have been dropped by now.

I’d have to see NCS’s stats, but I don’t feel he’s contributing enough at the moment. Certainly not as much as the other centres backs that are continually rotated.

That can change though. And I hope it does.

[magpie_mania]

There's not much point going around in circles on other threads about Baldwin, Cameron, 'the defending' 'a mistake' etc...

What's become clear is that the more LW double-downs on his football philosophy, strategy and preferences the more it jars with a certain section of our fanbase.

Yesterday we went to one of the bigger L2 clubs, played what can only be called a 3-2-4-1, 3 ball-playing defenders, a team packed with creators and bossed the game completely.
When have we ever seen a Notts team with that attacking balance? Wilko's team in the top flight? Moniz? It's f***in brilliant!
To be able to watch every game of your team playing this way is unbeatable entertainment.

Back 3s have been rare over the years. I used to associate it with Dutch football, Ajax and the Dutch National team of the early to mid 90s. 3 ball playing defenders, 2 holding playmakers in midfield and players like Overmars, Roy, Winter or Witschge out wide. Every team in the EFL made attempts over the years to move away from the flat back four. Great in theory, but in reality it was usually a sneaky way to play a back 5 with fans being asked to see players like DKE as 'wing-backs' and ask them to 'push up a bit'. Burchnall didn't want to play Nemane when he was sitting right under his nose for a year. Finally LW arrived to show us what a back 3 should really look like. And he's really going for it this season with Jones over Chicksen.

Full disclosure - now Ruben's gone, Baldwin and Cameron are my two favourite players. I also peg them as 2 of our best 4 players. Their swagger (if Kyle gets it back) and confidence to play is a massive part of our game and identity as a side.

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties. To their eyes we need four, tall, no nonsense defenders willing to play it long, a midfield hard man and a big target man up front...

Will LW's game bring success to Notts in L2? How much will he have to compromise and be pragmatic along the way? Will it fall flat on its face? We're going to find out. But who in their right mind wouldn't want to watch the team we put out yesterday? Seeing that dominance and potency is worth putting up with the odd mistake and goal conceded from them. We'll have dark times and setbacks but I believe LW and his team will keep their nerve and stick to their beliefs - as he did after Sutton. And we'll see how far playing our game takes us.

Agree with what you say, but you need to get the DKE fixation out of your mind! He was one of my favourite players!

[the_anticlough]

Agree with what you say, but you need to get the DKE fixation out of your mind! He was one of my favourite players!

He was alright - as a full-back.
It's a quick, easy and recent example - I've nothing against DKE at all.

[magpie_mania]

He was alright - as a full-back.
It's a quick, easy and recent example - I've nothing against DKE at all.

He seems to come up a lot in your posts!

[the_anticlough]

I’m not sure if it’s exactly what you’re talking about AC, but to me a perfect example yesterday was when Bostock knocked the ball back to Brindley prior to the first goal. The moans and groans were obvious around us, but then the ball went in and we scored.

LW was asked about it in his post match and his response was that from the free kick their defence is set, each defender knows who he’s marking and their line is organised. None of that is the case from the subsequent ball in. Simple but clever. ( to me anyway).

I didn't even think about that. It is very clever.
The short corners really grew on me too and now I hate the idea of giving the opposition the ball by floating it into the box where the player with the biggest advantage is the one with the hands. And recently we had an example of an opposition manager moaning about it, saying we don't give them a break or chance to get the ball - Paul Hurst I think it was.

[magpie_mania]

I didn't even think about that. It is very clever.
The short corners really grew on me too and now I hate the idea of giving the opposition the ball by floating it into the box where the player with the biggest advantage is the one with the hands. And recently we had an example of an opposition manager moaning about it, saying we don't give them a break or chance to get the ball - Paul Hurst I think it was.

It took time to grow on me, but it is clear to me that it is enjoyable and the way forward. When we signed Bostock there were moans about the way he played - it was clear that he needed a bit of time but it was obvious from day one why he was signed. The same goes now for Crowley. Gone are the days when we just filled the squad then worked out how they would play.

[The Dug Out]

Agree with what you say, but you need to get the DKE fixation out of your mind! He was one of my favourite players!
DKE was a decent player,.small lad but with a tenacious, never say die attitude, he always seemed to picked a fight with someone in the opposition, the biggest dirtiest brusier they'd got and he went for him0, more times than not he got the better.... I liked him a lot.2.

[51Magpie]

To their eyes we need four, tall, no nonsense defenders willing to play it long

I agree with virtually all of your original post but surely height is a factor, isn't it? I'm happy with a back line of three quick, skillful, creative defenders until we concede a corner. Then it's helpful if a couple of the aforesaid are a good bit over six foot. Corners, in-range free kicks and long throw-ins are nerve-racking if our defence is made up of guys of average height when we're playing teams from the land of the giants.

[the_anticlough]

I agree with virtually all of your original post but surely height is a factor, isn't it? I'm happy with a back line of three quick, skillful, creative defenders until we concede a corner. Then it's helpful if a couple of the aforesaid are a good bit over six foot.

Yeah, we're not entirely a team of short arses. Cameron's 6'3 Baldwin 6'0, we have Bostock, McGoldrick, Rawlo. And there's ways to avoid being dominated in the air even when your opponent has a few inches on you.

My issue is when it's made to be too important. It's a visual out on the pitch that's a bit of comforter for the anxious fan, but when a smaller player beats the tall lad over 6 yards and runs rings around him all game it's going to come back to bite you. And if your game is played on the deck anyway...
But I agree with you, everyone knows you have to have some stature to be able to see off the set-pieces

[matt_magpie]

I like the fact we go short on corners and free kicks mainly because it annoys some that just don’t get it and it takes bottle to go against the grain. I read it’s something like 1% goals come direct from corners and something like 2/3% second phase, so they’re really not that fruitful and LW explains perfectly why not.
As for our defenders we have to accept their not defenders as we know them or use to know them.
Could we had ever envisaged Brindley playing centre back?
LW goes on the assumption we are going to have a lot of the ball so we need players that are good on the ball and not bad at defending. I think one of the main abilities LW looks for in defenders is them keeping the ball in play, it’s not very often you see us boot it out, sometimes to our detriment but probably on the whole to our benefit.
It genuinely feels like we have the right mix of football now and fans are totally bought in and attendances are great, it does feel like something special is happening with the club.

[countygump]

I like the fact we go short on corners and free kicks mainly because it annoys some that just don’t get it and it takes bottle to go against the grain. I read it’s something like 1% goals come direct from corners and something like 2/3% second phase, so they’re really not that fruitful and LW explains perfectly why not.


I watched Wet Spam v Chels today. Every bl00dy corner that Chels had they put it in the box and it was headed away leaving them susceptible to a quick break away. It was begging for them to try something different, but they never did. Bl00dy players are worth millions as well.

[Mud Pie]

There's not much point going around in circles on other threads about Baldwin, Cameron, 'the defending' 'a mistake' etc...

What's become clear is that the more LW double-downs on his football philosophy, strategy and preferences the more it jars with a certain section of our fanbase.

Yesterday we went to one of the bigger L2 clubs, played what can only be called a 3-2-4-1, 3 ball-playing defenders, a team packed with creators and bossed the game completely.
When have we ever seen a Notts team with that attacking balance? Wilko's team in the top flight? Moniz? It's f***in brilliant!
To be able to watch every game of your team playing this way is unbeatable entertainment.

Back 3s have been rare over the years. I used to associate it with Dutch football, Ajax and the Dutch National team of the early to mid 90s. 3 ball playing defenders, 2 holding playmakers in midfield and players like Overmars, Roy, Winter or Witschge out wide. Every team in the EFL made attempts over the years to move away from the flat back four. Great in theory, but in reality it was usually a sneaky way to play a back 5 with fans being asked to see players like DKE as 'wing-backs' and ask them to 'push up a bit'. Burchnall didn't want to play Nemane when he was sitting right under his nose for a year. Finally LW arrived to show us what a back 3 should really look like. And he's really going for it this season with Jones over Chicksen.

Full disclosure - now Ruben's gone, Baldwin and Cameron are my two favourite players. I also peg them as 2 of our best 4 players. Their swagger (if Kyle gets it back) and confidence to play is a massive part of our game and identity as a side.

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties. To their eyes we need four, tall, no nonsense defenders willing to play it long, a midfield hard man and a big target man up front...

Will LW's game bring success to Notts in L2? How much will he have to compromise and be pragmatic along the way? Will it fall flat on its face? We're going to find out. But who in their right mind wouldn't want to watch the team we put out yesterday? Seeing that dominance and potency is worth putting up with the odd mistake and goal conceded from them. We'll have dark times and setbacks but I believe LW and his team will keep their nerve and stick to their beliefs - as he did after Sutton. And we'll see how far playing our game takes us.

great post. This is THE Notts discussion right now. Season ticket holder for nearly 15+ years but left Nottm ages ago and have had sporadic abiity to watch over the years, but I have (as we all have) seen some absolute rubbish played in the name of our great club, so AM ABSOLUTELY LOVING WHERE WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW!

Totally understand those who are finding hard to come to terms with LW's possession style. Tapping it slowly among the back 3 and goalie isn't very exciting. That said, he's getting results. Which is the main thing.

It's like a reframing is needed. Watchgin Moniz sides was a lot of fun, but he wasn't capable of getting consistent success out of that style. If he had been that would have been exciting and great. Watching Williams' Notts, you just have to admire how they first GET control, and then KEEP control of the whole game. Yesterday was a great case in point. Doncaster's game plan was to press high and harry us so we couldn't settle and build, but after we cut a few incisive passes through their high line and got our midfield and wings in, they literally had to sit back further to stop us walking right through. Eventually they totally gave up and just had to focus on limiting our chances. We saw that a lot last season.

Notts are trying to play top quality chess with mostly div 4 players - no offence, we make the best of what we can afford. It takes a special brand of recruiting and managing/coaching to make that work, but it's working - I think it's safe to say it's starting to work this season. If it occasionally breaks down in defence or attack, so be it. No point in banging on about Rawlos positioning or Cam's inconsistency when they're regularly hit such high levels of performance. If JJ could do what he does sometimes, ALL the time, he'd defo be Prem level, so give them a break AND recognize the brilliance of LW to be making this style of football work at this level - MOST of the time.

I'll stick to my analogy of LW's Notts as a Ducati race bike, it will misfire more often than other bikes, but when it's purring it's beautiful and almost unbeatable. We have to accept occasional brain farts and a bit of boring control, for the overall performance.

as to short corners, I got a bit tired of them not working last season. Understand LW's strategizing, but like everything else, they have to work or need rethinking. THat short free kick worked spectacularly yesterday so credit where it's due and dont be so dogmatic!!!!

[Mud Pie]

It genuinely feels like we have the right mix of football now and fans are totally bought in and attendances are great, it does feel like something special is happening with the club.

yup, totally agree. Such a shame about Jason Turner, but does look like we're keeping this dream alive. UPIES!

[MAD_MAGPIE]

There's not much point going around in circles on other threads about Baldwin, Cameron, 'the defending' 'a mistake' etc...

What's become clear is that the more LW double-downs on his football philosophy, strategy and preferences the more it jars with a certain section of our fanbase.

Yesterday we went to one of the bigger L2 clubs, played what can only be called a 3-2-4-1, 3 ball-playing defenders, a team packed with creators and bossed the game completely.
When have we ever seen a Notts team with that attacking balance? Wilko's team in the top flight? Moniz? It's f***in brilliant!
To be able to watch every game of your team playing this way is unbeatable entertainment.

Back 3s have been rare over the years. I used to associate it with Dutch football, Ajax and the Dutch National team of the early to mid 90s. 3 ball playing defenders, 2 holding playmakers in midfield and players like Overmars, Roy, Winter or Witschge out wide. Every team in the EFL made attempts over the years to move away from the flat back four. Great in theory, but in reality it was usually a sneaky way to play a back 5 with fans being asked to see players like DKE as 'wing-backs' and ask them to 'push up a bit'. Burchnall didn't want to play Nemane when he was sitting right under his nose for a year. Finally LW arrived to show us what a back 3 should really look like. And he's really going for it this season with Jones over Chicksen.

Full disclosure - now Ruben's gone, Baldwin and Cameron are my two favourite players. I also peg them as 2 of our best 4 players. Their swagger (if Kyle gets it back) and confidence to play is a massive part of our game and identity as a side.

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties. To their eyes we need four, tall, no nonsense defenders willing to play it long, a midfield hard man and a big target man up front...

Will LW's game bring success to Notts in L2? How much will he have to compromise and be pragmatic along the way? Will it fall flat on its face? We're going to find out. But who in their right mind wouldn't want to watch the team we put out yesterday? Seeing that dominance and potency is worth putting up with the odd mistake and goal conceded from them. We'll have dark times and setbacks but I believe LW and his team will keep their nerve and stick to their beliefs - as he did after Sutton. And we'll see how far playing our game takes us.

A good post. For me the way we play is the best way. What I do think is that it's the clubs philosophy and LW is a coach who wants to play to that philosophy. He alluded to this in my interpretation when he said recently something along the lines are fans are lucky as whether he's here or not it will still be the same.

It's been more of an evolution since the Neal Ardley reign rather than complete revolution. The biggest change for me was when Ian Burchnall came in and the now famous phrase "Burchball" was coined. What Luke Williams and the club have done is take this to the next level by making us stronger by getting rid of the soft underbelly we had and also some good astute signings that made us potent.

At it's core it's a footballing side. The aim to want the ball as much as possible, love having the ball and using it by having a possession based focus to enable us to control and dominate our opponents. When its at it best it grinds the opposition down and demoralises them as they can't get the ball. As one of the BT sports presenters said before we got our goal against Boreham Wood in the play-off semi final in the dying moments "they don't change the way they play" or something along those lines.

I like that with a back three it allows for diagonal balls and angles to the wingers and other players. Plus the goalkeeper also get's heavily involved in the build up play and the controlling element of possession as we have seen by coming out and being like a centre back. So at times you do get a four when in possession.

The fact we play this way means that we will attract footballers to the club with greater technical on the ball skills than some other clubs. Bostock, Jones, McGoldrick, Palmer. The list goes on. As it was proven in the National League you can be successful lower down the pyramid by playing football.

As with any style of playing it's always risk v reward and for me the rewards with how we play outweigh the risks.

Yesterday was a telling moment as there were some groans when Bostock took the free kick and then moments later we score. I've also heard groans when we don't put the ball high into the box from a corner. What it perhaps requires is a deeper understanding and patience of how we play. Some fans might not like the way we play, that's their choice and they will have their views and opinions. They may chose to pick up on the weaknesses and negatives because of this.

We have also shown this season that we are capable of mixing it up by going more direct from the goalkeeper as well. So we are not a one trick pony. I'm confident we will be successful and like in the National League it might take time and for me there is far more to come from this side, and that is exciting.

[jackal2]

Excellent OP by AC.

Make no mistake, I've thoroughly enjoyed the brand of football Luke Williams plays. The instruction has clearly come from the club hierarchy that this is our intended 'identity', and Neal Ardley and Ian Burchnall played their roles in transitioning us to it, but Williams has taken that work up several levels, not least because his influence isn't just evident in the way we play on the field but also the growing mental strength of the team.

I can remember several seasons, before the Munto mirage, when you were lucky if you saw six or seven good performances and entertaining games per season season. It was awful stuff, seemingly season after season. When AC talks about cloggers, my mind goes back to the Steve Thompson teams who played the ugliest football I've ever seen. He clearly had no idea how to coach a football team beyond putting a big man up front and pumping poor quality, aimless balls into the box, which of course gave the ball away cheaply and saw an equally poor defence exposed many times.

Since Luke Williams arrived, virtually every home game has been entertaining, and a good number of the matches have been barn-stormers. You look forward to going to see us play, and the attacking talent on display is the best I've seen since the days of Tommy Johnson, Mark Draper, Dean Thomas, Kevin Bartlett et al.

The one question mark surrounding LW's philosophy of completely controlling possession is what happens when the opponents become good enough to stop that happening? If our opponents manage to disrupt our rhythm and get a decent share of the ball, then our defence is actually quite vulnerable, as shown by some stats NCFOG posted in a thread a short while back.

I don't want to see 'cloggers' in this team, and they wouldn't fit, but as we face improving opposition there will come a point where we'll need a couple of 'nastier' players in midfield and at the back who don't get overwhelmed if the opponents start to get the upper hand, especially in away games.

I don't see this pragmatic point as a clash of footballing philosophies or a reason to oust good footballers like Baldwin and Cameron. It's simply a case of getting the balance right, so we've got a team that cope with ANY type of opponent.

One of the biggest myths about the successful Warnock and Allardyce teams was that they were nothing more than physical long-ball merchants. That's totally untrue - they were winners who played some very exciting football, albeit more in the opponent's half than their own. One of the things I liked about both those sides was that they did have a ruthless, nasty streak. They were willing - to coin an old phrase - to "leave one on the opponent", Graeme Sounness or Roy Keane style! When teams played Notts County under Warnock and Allardyce, they knew they had been in a game and probably didn't look forward to meeting them again too quickly!

I don't see any reason why Luke Williams' team can't continue to be the most entertaining side in the division, but cut out the soft mistakes and become nastier and more aggressive out of possession. Obviously the current team isn't a bunch of careless softies otherwise they would never have won promotion and continued to win this season, but I'm sure LW knows we won't be able to completely control every game play, and I think that's why he keeps emphasising concentration, both in and out of possession, and being a "difficult" team to play against as well as a great one to watch. Flowing football and crunching tackles are both fun to watch and get the crowd going.

I'd like us to be a team who are feared in every way! >:)

[Proactive not Reactive]

There's not much point going around in circles on other threads about Baldwin, Cameron, 'the defending' 'a mistake' etc...

What's become clear is that the more LW double-downs on his football philosophy, strategy and preferences the more it jars with a certain section of our fanbase.

Yesterday we went to one of the bigger L2 clubs, played what can only be called a 3-2-4-1, 3 ball-playing defenders, a team packed with creators and bossed the game completely.
When have we ever seen a Notts team with that attacking balance? Wilko's team in the top flight? Moniz? It's f***in brilliant!
To be able to watch every game of your team playing this way is unbeatable entertainment.

Back 3s have been rare over the years. I used to associate it with Dutch football, Ajax and the Dutch National team of the early to mid 90s. 3 ball playing defenders, 2 holding playmakers in midfield and players like Overmars, Roy, Winter or Witschge out wide. Every team in the EFL made attempts over the years to move away from the flat back four. Great in theory, but in reality it was usually a sneaky way to play a back 5 with fans being asked to see players like DKE as 'wing-backs' and ask them to 'push up a bit'. Burchnall didn't want to play Nemane when he was sitting right under his nose for a year. Finally LW arrived to show us what a back 3 should really look like. And he's really going for it this season with Jones over Chicksen.

Full disclosure - now Ruben's gone, Baldwin and Cameron are my two favourite players. I also peg them as 2 of our best 4 players. Their swagger (if Kyle gets it back) and confidence to play is a massive part of our game and identity as a side.

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties. To their eyes we need four, tall, no nonsense defenders willing to play it long, a midfield hard man and a big target man up front...

Will LW's game bring success to Notts in L2? How much will he have to compromise and be pragmatic along the way? Will it fall flat on its face? We're going to find out. But who in their right mind wouldn't want to watch the team we put out yesterday? Seeing that dominance and potency is worth putting up with the odd mistake and goal conceded from them. We'll have dark times and setbacks but I believe LW and his team will keep their nerve and stick to their beliefs - as he did after Sutton. And we'll see how far playing our game takes us.
An excellent post of course it would be great for us to reach the lofty heights of the Championship but as important to me is going to games enjoying them and being entertained.
That has certainly been the case in the NL and massively raised last season,the play off games were brilliant especially the character and were up with the Warnock play offs.
I’m there v Grimsby this season and wow the game was even better than last season with such quality for the goals against tougher opposition than last season.
I went to the odd game in the Keith Curle era boring went to a number of games in the Nolan era take Yates,Grant and Ameobi out of their poor side.
I went to more games last season than for a long time,most home games and will be the same this season just love LW’s approach to the game - it’s entertainment
I don’t think we need Roy Keane,Graeme Souness types football has changed it’s totally different almost like 5 a side,pitches are a lot better and players are a lot more technical and midfield players now are encouraged to lead players down blind alleys away from the goal without making tackles
Notts have dominated the last 3 matches without making numerous tackles and especially Bostock and Palmer have dominated the midfield by speed of thought,bravery on the ball and ability to keep moving the ball with short decisive passes.
This is the modern era of coaches and over time there will be less teams slinging the ball into the box

[Elite_Pie]

All of this, the formation, the possession game, the type of players we're fielding, will freak out those fans brought up on park footy or watching lower league cloggers in the physical era of the noughties.

The physical era of the noughties? Really? You must be much younger than me, because the noughties was the start of the namby-pamby era compared to the seventies, when things actually were physical. The first time I remember Notts trying to play the modern tippy-tappy style was when Ian McParland replaced Steve Thompson as manager. It was a disaster, and the most boring Notts team I've watched in 52 years.

Style is vastly overrated in my opinion. It's great when it works, but not when it doesn't. Under Ardley we were dull. Under Burchnall we were better but never looked convincing. Under Williams, we have been fantastic. That's because style has finally led to results to go with style. I admit it was a bit of a learning curve for me, but by Christmas I'd stopped moaning about passing backwards and taking short corners. Why? Because the league table said that it's effective. I was converted. Whatever Luke Williams decides to do, I will back him because he's shown it works.

[queenslandpie]

You simply cannot argue with the results or the style of play both are fantastic for the most part, but I don't think there is anything wrong in demanding more from some of the players as they could be even better than they are if they cut out some of the suicidal mistakes they make. Baldwin last weekend was a case in point. Had a brilliant game and didn't do anything suicidal. I don't think we simply have to accept that because of the style we play and the players we have that mistakes are inevitable. I am quite sure Luke Williams would think the same.

[durhampie]

We are the Man City of the lower leagues, our football since the Bros have been here has been scintillating. Our style of play is possession based, so we dont need those big boot cloggers. The likes of Cameron, Baldwin and Brindley are the perfect fit for what we do.. if we could just cut out some of the basic errors which we are prone to, then we would be a real force..

[uysapie]

I still get peed off with the passing to and fro in our own half, boring as far as I am concerned. I can understand the so called " recycling" in the opponents half but even that is at walking pace at times.

[the_anticlough]

I think there should always be room for discussion. I love the way we play, I’m a massive fan of LW but that does not nor should not make it impossible for me to comment on tactics, players etc.

I like Baldwin, I think if we can keep him fit, he’s going places, hopefully with Notts.

With Cameron though, I’d have to draw the line in agreeing with you. He’s not stepped up so far, and this downturn in form started long before this season.

I’m fairly sure were he not captain and results had not been so good he might have been dropped by now.

I’d have to see NCS’s stats, but I don’t feel he’s contributing enough at the moment. Certainly not as much as the other centres backs that are continually rotated.

That can change though. And I hope it does.

I'm a big backer of KC and think he deserved his NL team of the year spot last season
But from the 4 league games so far, I'd give him 4/10, 5/10, 5/10 and 6/10...not a barnstorming start but I like the direction it's going in, if you turn it into a graph and project... :)

[kill_the_drum]

Excellent OP by AC.

The one question mark surrounding LW's philosophy of completely controlling possession is what happens when the opponents become good enough to stop that happening? If our opponents manage to disrupt our rhythm and get a decent share of the ball, then our defence is actually quite vulnerable, as shown by some stats NCFOG posted in a thread a short while back.

>:)

If we’re at a level where opponents become good enough to stop us playing, then we would need better players at doing what we already do.
My personal opinion is we’re not at that level yet, and this team will bring us another promotion push.
We defend by breaking up play and suffocating the opposition high up the pitch.
It’s more work rate than it is physicality.

[drillerpie]

I suppose there are two points to consider here - enjoyment and success.

As regards enjoyment, if im being completely honest the way we play doesn't really get my juices flowing. This is not me being critical, as I hope I manage to express in the rest of the post, its just my personal opinion.

For me football is a game skill of course, but also, and perhaps more, of physicality, speed, aggression, a battle of wills. Overcoming adversity through sheer bloody minded application. Moments of skill yes, but unpredictable.

I always enjoyed watching someone stick it to Barcelona in the late noughties, like Chelsea when they barely got out of their own half and they played with two strikers doubling up either side at full back. Or watching Liverpool or Leicester do the same to City in the last decade with helter skelter football leading to balls over the top for Vardy or Salah to run on to.

This is probably heresy, but I actually enjoy watching the current Forest team more than Notts. Big centre forward. Tough tackling midfielder. Fast counter attacks. Me likey.

That's probably why I liked Ruben so much, as he paired undoubted skill and flair with a healthy dose of emotion - getting wound up and squaring up to people, getting fouled and then putting revenge tackles in. Carrying the ball while using his physical strength.

In terms of effectiveness, there is no contest. We have a game plan. We stick to it. It works. It's the first time in a long time we can say that about Notts.

Our manager is very talented, I love the way he speaks - always so measured - and what he has done for us. Our players are all likeable and very good at what they do.

I just can't escape the fact that it's like going with a stunningly beautiful woman who shows no passion, or going to a restaurant where the food is always amazing but the atmosphere and staff are boring and sterile, or like watching Rainman solve mathematical equations.

With all three of the examples I've chosen as with Notts, while you have to admire and respect the technical prowess, but there's a kind of inevitability and control about it that leaves me slightly underwhelmed.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur. I don't know. I know we won't change and I don't even want us to change. This is who we are now and it's great to see us climbing the leagues again.

[nw6pie]

I suppose there are two points to consider here - enjoyment and success.

As regards enjoyment, if im being completely honest the way we play doesn't really get my juices flowing. This is not me being critical, as I hope I manage to express in the rest of the post, its just my personal opinion.

For me football is a game skill of course, but also, and perhaps more, of physicality, speed, aggression, a battle of wills. Overcoming adversity through sheer bloody minded application. Moments of skill yes, but unpredictable.

I always enjoyed watching someone stick it to Barcelona in the late noughties, like Chelsea when they barely got out of their own half and they played with two strikers doubling up either side at full back. Or watching Liverpool or Leicester do the same to City in the last decade with helter skelter football leading to balls over the top for Vardy or Salah to run on to.

This is probably heresy, but I actually enjoy watching the current Forest team more than Notts. Big centre forward. Tough tackling midfielder. Fast counter attacks. Me likey.

That's probably why I liked Ruben so much, as he paired undoubted skill and flair with a healthy dose of emotion - getting wound up and squaring up to people, getting fouled and then putting revenge tackles in. Carrying the ball while using his physical strength.

In terms of effectiveness, there is no contest. We have a game plan. We stick to it. It works. It's the first time in a long time we can say that about Notts.

Our manager is very talented, I love the way he speaks - always so measured - and what he has done for us. Our players are all likeable and very good at what they do.

I just can't escape the fact that it's like going with a stunningly beautiful woman who shows no passion, or going to a restaurant where the food is always amazing but the atmosphere and staff are boring and sterile, or like watching Rainman solve mathematical equations.

With all three of the examples I've chosen as with Notts, while you have to admire and respect the technical prowess, but there's a kind of inevitability and control about it that leaves me slightly underwhelmed.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur. I don't know. I know we won't change and I don't even want us to change. This is who we are now and it's great to see us climbing the leagues again.

I’ve been watching Notts for 45 years and this team has consistently played the best football I’ve ever seen from a Notts side. I don’t recognise the Notts you’re describe, Driller. For starters, we scored over 100 goals last season and were consistently having over 20 shots per game - that is not negative football. Yes, we want to control the game and part of that means “resting with the ball”. Seems a small price to pay for everything it gives us.

As for passion, one of the comments that stuck out for me from Saturday was a Doncaster reporter complaining that we “wanted it more” - which is always lovely to hear. But that comes from hard work and determination. Part of the reason we’re currently getting great crowds is that we’re entertaining to watch - most of the time, anyway - and work incredibly hard as a team.

As for Forest - I watched the Sheffield United game on Friday night and thought United played them off the park at times and definitely deserved a point. Not sure if Cloughie would be a big fan of Forest’s attritional approach.

#Viva Notts, as someone might have said!

[LaxtonLad]

I’m not sure if it’s exactly what you’re talking about AC, but to me a perfect example yesterday was when Bostock knocked the ball back to Brindley prior to the first goal. The moans and groans were obvious around us, but then the ball went in and we scored.

LW was asked about it in his post match and his response was that from the free kick their defence is set, each defender knows who he’s marking and their line is organised. None of that is the case from the subsequent ball in. Simple but clever. ( to me anyway).

When LW puts it like that it does makes sense and we should be aware that the obvious "lob it in the box" isn't always the best ploy. The pass back in that situation isn't expected by the enemy (and the fans) and is hard to counter.

[drillerpie]

I’ve been watching Notts for 45 years and this team has consistently played the best football I’ve ever seen from a Notts side. I don’t recognise the Notts you’re describe, Driller. For starters, we scored over 100 goals last season and were consistently having over 20 shots per game - that is not negative football. Yes, we want to control the game and part of that means “resting with the ball”. Seems a small price to pay for everything it gives us.

As for passion, one of the comments that stuck out for me from Saturday was a Doncaster reporter complaining that we “wanted it more” - which is always lovely to hear. But that comes from hard work and determination. Part of the reason we’re currently getting great crowds is that we’re entertaining to watch - most of the time, anyway - and work incredibly hard as a team.

As for Forest - I watched the Sheffield United game on Friday night and thought United played them off the park at times and definitely deserved a point. Not sure if Cloughie would be a big fan of Forest’s attritional approach.

#Viva Notts, as someone might have said!

Yes. You are absolutely right. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

I know that what we do now is extremely effective and takes a lot of skill. I know it makes sense.

We don't need thundering challenges and physical duels because we get the ball and keep the ball. I get it.

I suppose I'm just saying that I don't get the same visceral enjoyment from watching that kind of football.

It's me that's the problem, not you, and not Notts. I'm a Philistine I suppose.

[OchPie]

I suppose I'm just saying that I don't get the same visceral enjoyment from watching that kind of football.

It's me that's the problem, not you, and not Notts. I'm a Philistine I suppose.

I get it - but for me, as long as we're sticking them away, I get enough endorphins to go alongside the intellectual enjoyment of us breaking teams down slowly then quickly.

That said I think the increased necessity to earn the right to play this season will help make things more exciting too.

[slack_pie]

Great post to start this thread. I must admit that sometimes I find myself moaning when LW's style isn't working - I was moaning quite a lot during the first half at Donny, especially in the build-up to our first goal when we played it back. I was also moaning in the build-up to our equaliser against Boreham Wood in the playoffs. Just goes to show what I know.

When LW's style clicks, it's simply the best football I've ever seen Notts play. In fact, it's some of the best football I've seen any team play live. To be able to go away to a team that's been playing a division or two above you for the last few years and just dominate is incredible. The quality we have throughout the squad is impressive too.

I said it after the game that right now is a special time to be a Notts fan. The atmosphere and vibe among the fans shows that every understands that. LW and his approach is the main reason why.

I think the reason some people still struggle with it (including me) is that when it doesn't click, it looks terrifying. The defensive errors, the lack of physicality - all those things that were exposed against Sutton. But despite all that, I really wouldn't change a thing right now. It's a great time to be a Notts fan.

[drillerpie]

That said I think the increased necessity to earn the right to play this season will help make things more exciting too.

That's a good point.

[Notts78]

Excellent OP by AC.

Make no mistake, I've thoroughly enjoyed the brand of football Luke Williams plays. The instruction has clearly come from the club hierarchy that this is our intended 'identity', and Neal Ardley and Ian Burchnall played their roles in transitioning us to it, but Williams has taken that work up several levels, not least because his influence isn't just evident in the way we play on the field but also the growing mental strength of the team.

I can remember several seasons, before the Munto mirage, when you were lucky if you saw six or seven good performances and entertaining games per season season. It was awful stuff, seemingly season after season. When AC talks about cloggers, my mind goes back to the Steve Thompson teams who played the ugliest football I've ever seen. He clearly had no idea how to coach a football team beyond putting a big man up front and pumping poor quality, aimless balls into the box, which of course gave the ball away cheaply and saw an equally poor defence exposed many times.

Since Luke Williams arrived, virtually every home game has been entertaining, and a good number of the matches have been barn-stormers. You look forward to going to see us play, and the attacking talent on display is the best I've seen since the days of Tommy Johnson, Mark Draper, Dean Thomas, Kevin Bartlett et al.

The one question mark surrounding LW's philosophy of completely controlling possession is what happens when the opponents become good enough to stop that happening? If our opponents manage to disrupt our rhythm and get a decent share of the ball, then our defence is actually quite vulnerable, as shown by some stats NCFOG posted in a thread a short while back.

I don't want to see 'cloggers' in this team, and they wouldn't fit, but as we face improving opposition there will come a point where we'll need a couple of 'nastier' players in midfield and at the back who don't get overwhelmed if the opponents start to get the upper hand, especially in away games.

I don't see this pragmatic point as a clash of footballing philosophies or a reason to oust good footballers like Baldwin and Cameron. It's simply a case of getting the balance right, so we've got a team that cope with ANY type of opponent.

One of the biggest myths about the successful Warnock and Allardyce teams was that they were nothing more than physical long-ball merchants. That's totally untrue - they were winners who played some very exciting football, albeit more in the opponent's half than their own. One of the things I liked about both those sides was that they did have a ruthless, nasty streak. They were willing - to coin an old phrase - to "leave one on the opponent", Graeme Sounness or Roy Keane style! When teams played Notts County under Warnock and Allardyce, they knew they had been in a game and probably didn't look forward to meeting them again too quickly!

I don't see any reason why Luke Williams' team can't continue to be the most entertaining side in the division, but cut out the soft mistakes and become nastier and more aggressive out of possession. Obviously the current team isn't a bunch of careless softies otherwise they would never have won promotion and continued to win this season, but I'm sure LW knows we won't be able to completely control every game play, and I think that's why he keeps emphasising concentration, both in and out of possession, and being a "difficult" team to play against as well as a great one to watch. Flowing football and crunching tackles are both fun to watch and get the crowd going.

I'd like us to be a team who are feared in every way! >:)

I don’t think LW agrees. We have our way of playing, it’s done home and away. The idea of needing nastier players in this day and age is futile, players get booked easier now than at any point in the past. Notts have picked up a load of cards already!
When we get to a point that teams figure us out and can stop our play from being effective it’s not the system that’s broke but the players playing it. This is where the side will evolve. It’s already happened with Stone replacing Slocombe. I get annoyed when our defenders have space to bring the ball out of defence, and don’t. That will come with different personnel when the time is right.

[ancientpie]

Yes. You are absolutely right. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

I know that what we do now is extremely effective and takes a lot of skill. I know it makes sense.

We don't need thundering challenges and physical duels because we get the ball and keep the ball. I get it.

I suppose I'm just saying that I don't get the same visceral enjoyment from watching that kind of football.

It's me that's the problem, not you, and not Notts. I'm a Philistine I suppose.

Much like myself,I can see that possession based football when played well is very effective & pleasing on the eye, but nobody will convince me that it's as exciting to watch as a more attack based direct type of game, I very much enjoy todays football but I cannot remember the last time I was sat on the edge of my seat. Technically it's brilliant but so is a chess match, I see Wrexham fans getting more excitement but not necessarily success out of this season, footballs changing it's very skilful & still entertaining but lacks some of the excitement imo. COYP

[nw6pie]

Yes. You are absolutely right. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

I know that what we do now is extremely effective and takes a lot of skill. I know it makes sense.

We don't need thundering challenges and physical duels because we get the ball and keep the ball. I get it.

I suppose I'm just saying that I don't get the same visceral enjoyment from watching that kind of football.

It's me that's the problem, not you, and not Notts. I'm a Philistine I suppose.

I see where you’re coming from and agree in a sense - there’s nothing better than a crunching challenge when your player wins a 50/50. That’s also a guaranteed way to get the crowd going.

The problem is that this is harder and harder to get right. Look at the challenge from John Bostock in the first half on Saturday. He wins the ball, but then accidentally catches their guy with his follow through. A few years ago - great tackle and play on. Today - yellow card and he’s got to tread carefully for the rest of the game. Moral of the story for players: stay on your feet, don’t make a challenge. The game has definitely lost something because of this approach, but I’m sure everyone accepts the logic behind it of trying to reduce serious injuries.

[nw6pie]

Much like myself,I can see that possession based football when played well is very effective & pleasing on the eye, but nobody will convince me that it's as exciting to watch as a more attack based direct type of game, I very much enjoy todays football but I cannot remember the last time I was sat on the edge of my seat. Technically it's brilliant but so is a chess match, I see Wrexham fans getting more excitement but not necessarily success out of this season, footballs changing it's very skilful & still entertaining but lacks some of the excitement imo. COYP

I’m expecting lots of edge-of-seat games this season, like we had against Grimsby the other week. The entertainment issue last year generally arose when teams sat back against us and showed no interest in even crossing the halfway line, making it a game of attack v defence. I can’t see that happening as much this season.

[BigFatPie]

I’m expecting lots of edge-of-seat games this season, like we had against Grimsby the other week. The entertainment issue last year generally arose when teams sat back against us and showed no interest in even crossing the halfway line, making it a game of attack v defence. I can’t see that happening as much this season.

The Grimsby game was such a fantastic, high tempo affair, no doubt in part to the atmosphere, but also due to the higher intensity and quality of the EFL. Paul Hurst has said they played better in that game than when they beat Salford a few days later, presumably because our style forced them to.

Really looking forward to the two consecutive home games coming up. We may well not win both but I’m very confident they won’t be boring.

[ajojones]

Brilliant post and discussion about the football content/detail. It puts the players in context rather than focus on their specific errors. The style took me ages to settle to and is like a chess match but beautiful to see how consistently it brings results. Long may it continue.

[1955pie]

Good original post AC although I can't understand Baldwin and Cameron being your 2 favourite players. They come some where down the list in my view. Each to their own I suppose.
I really, really like the fact that we play with a back 3 and wouldn't want to change it but as Notts78 alludes to below it is that players playing it are perhaps not quite good enough.


I don’t think LW agrees. We have our way of playing, it’s done home and away. The idea of needing nastier players in this day and age is futile, players get booked easier now than at any point in the past. Notts have picked up a load of cards already!
When we get to a point that teams figure us out and can stop our play from being effective it’s not the system that’s broke but the players playing it. This is where the side will evolve. It’s already happened with Stone replacing Slocombe. I get annoyed when our defenders have space to bring the ball out of defence, and don’t. That will come with different personnel when the time is right.

However, my main concern is not the quality but the quantity. We are very thin on the ground at the back. As someone on here suggested very recently that Baldwin appears to be made of cheese, Baj is out for the season and remember Brindley was out for 2 or 3 months last season. I worry that we are sailing too close to the wind.
Of course Luke Williams is not responsible here. He has to manage with what he is given. We have just 11 days left of the window.

[the_anticlough]

The physical era of the noughties? Really? You must be much younger than me, because the noughties was the start of the namby-pamby era compared to the seventies, when things actually were physical. The first time I remember Notts trying to play the modern tippy-tappy style was when Ian McParland replaced Steve Thompson as manager. It was a disaster, and the most boring Notts team I've watched in 52 years.


So many interesting posts to respond to but I'll jump on this one because it asks a direct question.
Football changed a lot from the 70s to the 00s (and continues to change). The 70s may have been physical in terms of sheer violence but what turned me off in the 00s was how fixated clubs seem to be with physique.

When I got into Notts in the 70s we had Carter, Dave Smith, the Don, Arthur Mann, Rayo, Pedro, not everyone was built like Stubbs, Needham and Bradd. Football was played by all sorts of shapes and sizes. Skill was the common denominator. 80s were a continuation, early 90s too. Mid to late 90s is the era I lost touch with Notts the most.

By the noughties though, the influence of the successful teams in the EPL had a negative impact. Mourinho and his obsession with player's metrics and negative tactics. The Arsenal Invincibles team of 2004, and before that, were formidable teams physically with their back 4, Vieira, Gilberto, Petit in front of them etc. The lower leagues followed suit as they often do.

For 10-15 years, I'd go to Notts games and regularly feel cheated from a value for money point of view. Teams just seemed to pick big athletes who fitted the template - all the skill and character we saw in the 70s seemed to be long gone. Negative, cagey tactics made things even worse. We seemed to be paying to watch lads who were great in the weight room but couldn't keep a pass in play, see a pass or beat a man for toffee.

Maybe the tide's turned back now and the way the EPL is today with all its foreign influences has brought the accent back on skill and technique a lot more. It's certainly the case with Notts - we're spoilt for skillful players now and we pick teams to dominate, attack and win. Almost all who have posted on this thread seem to be happy we're swimming with the tide.

[durhampie]

The physical era of the noughties? Really? You must be much younger than me, because the noughties was the start of the namby-pamby era compared to the seventies, when things actually were physical. The first time I remember Notts trying to play the modern tippy-tappy style was when Ian McParland replaced Steve Thompson as manager. It was a disaster, and the most boring Notts team I've watched in 52 years.

Style is vastly overrated in my opinion. It's great when it works, but not when it doesn't. Under Ardley we were dull. Under Burchnall we were better but never looked convincing. Under Williams, we have been fantastic. That's because style has finally led to results to go with style. I admit it was a bit of a learning curve for me, but by Christmas I'd stopped moaning about passing backwards and taking short corners. Why? Because the league table said that it's effective. I was converted. Whatever Luke Williams decides to do, I will back him because he's shown it works.

I thought we first played the tippy tappy style under Mick Walker...

[uysapie]

I thought we first played the tippy tappy style under Mick Walker...

Notts 5 Tranmere 1 showed the passing game

[Notts78]

Notts 5 Tranmere 1 showed the passing game

Hopefully a repeat score line on Saturday