O/T:- Navalny

[SmiffyPie]

Well there's a surprise!

"Russia's most significant opposition leader for the past decade, Alexei Navalny, has died in prison inside the Arctic Circle, the prison service said.
Seen as President Vladimir Putin's most vociferous critic, Navalny was serving a 19-year jail term for offences widely considered politically motivated.
He was moved to an Arctic penal colony, considered one of the toughest jails, late last year.
The prison service in the Yamalo-Nenets district said he had "felt unwell" after a walk on Friday.
He had "almost immediately lost consciousness", it said in a statement, adding that an emergency medical team had immediately been called and tried to resuscitate him but without success."

[OP67]

Well there's a surprise!

"Russia's most significant opposition leader for the past decade, Alexei Navalny, has died in prison inside the Arctic Circle, the prison service said.
Seen as President Vladimir Putin's most vociferous critic, Navalny was serving a 19-year jail term for offences widely considered politically motivated.
He was moved to an Arctic penal colony, considered one of the toughest jails, late last year.
The prison service in the Yamalo-Nenets district said he had "felt unwell" after a walk on Friday.
He had "almost immediately lost consciousness", it said in a statement, adding that an emergency medical team had immediately been called and tried to resuscitate him but without success."

Another one "died" for opposing Poo Tin!!!

[ThaiPie]

Another one "died" for opposing Poo Tin!!!

Navalny : A true Russian Hero - probably one of the bravest men this century.

[BigFatPie]

Will this be the event that leads to far right politicians like Trump and Farage withdrawing their support for Putin and maybe backing Ukraine? I’m not hopeful.

[The Dug Out]

I have been following Navalny on various media outlets for around 4 years. He has, or had, Putin and the Russian Government down to a tee.
I am just surprised that he has stayed alive this long knowing what Putin is capable of.
It's a sad day for Russia, Navalny was the the last hope of any form of nomality for it's people.
Sad day

[SmiffyPie]

I have been following Navalny on various media outlets for around 4 years. He has, or had, Putin and the Russian Government down to a tee.
I am just surprised that he has stayed alive this long knowing what Putin is capable of.
It's a sad day for Russia, Navalny was the the last hope of any form of nomality for it's people.
Sad dayA brave brave man. A sad day for the silent in Russia.

[Big Bob]

Well there's a surprise!

"Russia's most significant opposition leader for the past decade, Alexei Navalny, has died in prison inside the Arctic Circle, the prison service said.
Seen as President Vladimir Putin's most vociferous critic, Navalny was serving a 19-year jail term for offences widely considered politically motivated.
He was moved to an Arctic penal colony, considered one of the toughest jails, late last year.
The prison service in the Yamalo-Nenets district said he had "felt unwell" after a walk on Friday.
He had "almost immediately lost consciousness", it said in a statement, adding that an emergency medical team had immediately been called and tried to resuscitate him but without success."
Tried to resuscitate? You don't believe that do you? He was bumped off

[SmiffyPie]

Of course he was bumped off. (Every thing inside " " is the report, not my words).

[Robertomac]

Where's NCM's official Putin defender and spokesperson? I'd be interested to hear his view on this.

[maddogslater]

Will this be the event that leads to far right politicians like Trump and Farage withdrawing their support for Putin and maybe backing Ukraine? I’m not hopeful.
Backing them to do what exactly ? A never ending war with the daily risk of a world ending nuclear exchange ?
They're never going to win a war against Russia, best they can do is ask the US for permission to start peace talks, make no mistake the US hawks wanted this war.
JFK, blown away, by his own CIA.

[upthemaggies]

Putin's corpse count can't be too far behind that of the Clinton's now.
Impressive.

[BigFatPie]

Backing them to do what exactly ? A never ending war with the daily risk of a world ending nuclear exchange ?
They're never going to win a war against Russia, best they can do is ask the US for permission to start peace talks, make no mistake the US hawks wanted this war.
JFK, blown away, by his own CIA.

Aside from your baseless conspiracy theory, what do you think would happen if the West just lets Putin keep some or all of the bits of Ukraine he’s annexed? Do you think he would stop there, or move on to the Baltic states or maybe Georgia?

The US and Europe has to keep backing Ukraine’s defence of its territory, you can’t negotiate with lunatics and murderers. What happens if the US elects its own lunatic in Trump is anyone’s guess…

[Elite_Pie]

Navalny : A true Russian Hero - probably one of the bravest men this century.

Hopefully this assassination will inspire a generation of similar heroes.

Surely a country the size of Russia has some prepared to stand up and fight Putin?

[The Dug Out]

[QUOTE=Elite_Pie;40450911]Hopefully this assassination will inspire a generation of similar heroes.

Surely a country the size of Russia has some prepared to stand up and fight Putin?

We could certainly help with the amount of " river to the sea" protesters that are causing havoc throughout Britain weekend in weekend out,not so sure if they would be up for Moscow every Saturday though.
Brave people that would.

[andy6025]

Jeffrey Epstein and Gonzalo Lira have entered the chat.

[PedroTheFisherman66]

Jeffrey Epstein and Gonzalo Lira have entered the chat.

in the words of Homer , its funny coz its true !!

[queenslandpie]

There are a few documentaries on You Tube about the Siberian Gulags. Pretty horrible places.

Elite i doubt very much there is much point in there being any heroes in Russia. Unless its a military revolution , Junta / Coup I can't see how you can dethrone Putin. And if that happens most likely it will be pretty much more of the same.

[Jampie]

not exactly the first putin opponent who has died before their time

[maddogslater]

Aside from your baseless conspiracy theory, what do you think would happen if the West just lets Putin keep some or all of the bits of Ukraine he’s annexed? Do you think he would stop there, or move on to the Baltic states or maybe Georgia?

The US and Europe has to keep backing Ukraine’s defence of its territory, you can’t negotiate with lunatics and murderers. What happens if the US elects its own lunatic in Trump is anyone’s guess…

You're obviously captured by by biased western media hysteria, try and form your own opinions from the evidence available. No he wouldn't go on to the baltic states or Poland because they are part of nato, calling people lunatics doesn't make them so, there's no point trying to have a serious discussion with you it's like arguing with a ten year old. 😉

[Old_pie]

Quote Originally Posted by BigFatPie View Post
Aside from your baseless conspiracy theory, what do you think would happen if the West just lets Putin keep some or all of the bits of Ukraine he’s annexed? Do you think he would stop there, or move on to the Baltic states or maybe Georgia?

The US and Europe has to keep backing Ukraine’s defence of its territory, you can’t negotiate with lunatics and murderers. What happens if the US elects its own lunatic in Trump is anyone’s guess…
You're obviously captured by by biased western media hysteria, try and form your own opinions from the evidence available. No he wouldn't go on to the baltic states or Poland because they are part of nato, calling people lunatics doesn't make them so, there's no point trying to have a serious discussion with you it's like arguing with a ten year old. 😉



You're obviously captured by by biased western media hysteria, try and form your own opinions from the evidence available. No he wouldn't go on to the baltic states or Poland because they are part of nato, calling people lunatics doesn't make them so, there's no point trying to have a serious discussion with you it's like arguing with a ten year old. 😉

How did Poland get into your post? BFP said Georgia which is not NATO. There are more than a few similarities between Georgia and Ukraine.

[tommopie8]

How did Poland get into your post? BFP said Georgia which is not NATO. There are more than a few similarities between Georgia and Ukraine.

They haven't covered that on Joe Rogan yet obviously

[drillerpie]

You're obviously captured by by biased western media hysteria, try and form your own opinions from the evidence available. No he wouldn't go on to the baltic states or Poland because they are part of nato, calling people lunatics doesn't make them so, there's no point trying to have a serious discussion with you it's like arguing with a ten year old. 😉

Sounds like you're admitting he would quite like to though, and NATO is the only thing stopping him.

[Elis]

RIP Alexei https://navalny.eu/

[BigFatPie]

They haven't covered that on Joe Rogan yet obviously

Haha that bloke has a lot to answer for.

[maddogslater]

How did Poland get into your post? BFP said Georgia which is not NATO. There are more than a few similarities between Georgia and Ukraine.
He also mentioned the baltic states which are nato and border Russia

[TSANHO]

Putins no saint, clearly, as aren’t the people pulling the stings behind US and UK foreign policy, but I do feel there is significant truth in what Putin said about NATO no expanding eastwards towards Russia. If it was the opposite situation we would see that as an act of aggression.

Robert Kennedy spoke about this months ago, long before Putins interview. We always talk about propaganda from other countries, our propaganda is much more subtle and effective…but it’s still propaganda.

[i961pie]

Do you think it’s propoganda that any opposition to Putin either gets bumped off or arrested for corruption etc. The opposition to him must be very unlucky or stupid if it is. I wonder if Sunack or Biden or Macron etc. wished their opposition could be has bad?

[drillerpie]

Putins no saint, clearly, as aren’t the people pulling the stings behind US and UK foreign policy, but I do feel there is significant truth in what Putin said about NATO no expanding eastwards towards Russia. If it was the opposite situation we would see that as an act of aggression.

Robert Kennedy spoke about this months ago, long before Putins interview. We always talk about propaganda from other countries, our propaganda is much more subtle and effective…but it’s still propaganda.

What exactly is the serious truth? He has increased his land border with NATO because of his invasion. He has pulled soldiers away from the NATO border because of the invasion. It's not about NATO.

It's true that he's against NATO in that part of the world because he can't invade them once they're in, amongst other reasons. It's not a surprise that they want to join.

Most European countries have moved on from their imperial ambitions. France fought for Algeria but let it go. We fought for Ireland but let it go. Portugal let their African colonies go decades ago.

[maddogslater]

I don't think that's what he expected though.
He didn't count on the West standing together or the ukraine putting up such stiff opposition, saying that it looks like the Russian military have now got there sh1t together, impossible for ukraine to win so the best outcome would be a settlement allowing autonomy for the ethnic Russian part of the ukraine.

[Old_pie]

What exactly is the serious truth? He has increased his land border with NATO because of his invasion. He has pulled soldiers away from the NATO border because of the invasion. It's not about NATO.

It's true that he's against NATO in that part of the world because he can't invade them once they're in, amongst other reasons. It's not a surprise that they want to join.

Most European countries have moved on from their imperial ambitions. France fought for Algeria but let it go. We fought for Ireland but let it go. Portugal let their African colonies go decades ago.

TSHANO has not been able to differentiate between tanks rolling into a country and countries queuing up to apply to join an organisation that will contest tanks rolling into a country.

Let's take some non-Western press:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/2/russia-denies-reports-of-military-buildup-near-ukraine-border

November 2021:

"Russia has denied media reports that it is massing military units near its border with Ukraine."

Or perhaps he should remind himself of: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-pullout-meets-uk-scepticism-ukraine-defence-website-still-hacked-2022-02-16/

""If Russia is successful in Ukraine, it would encourage it to increase pressure on the Baltics in the coming years," he said. "The threat of war has become the main policy tool for Putin."
Russia's defense ministry said its forces were pulling back after exercises in southern and western military districts near Ukraine, and Moscow's ambassador to Ireland insisted forces in western Russia would be back to their normal positions within three to four weeks."

That's like the week before the invasion.

Oops, sorry, I forgot. Russia isn't at war, it's just a "special military operation" :?

[maddogslater]

Funny how the soft left in Europe and America have fell into bed with neo nazis https://asawinstanley.substack.com/p/washington-post-shamelessly-whitewashes

[TheBlackHorse]

... what gives Russia the right to think that they can have non NATO buffer states next to their border?

[TSANHO]

Just trying to put some context t some of Putins abhorrent decisions really. I just think that what he said about reaching out to talk and settling things held some serious truth, as supported by RFK saying that a peace deal was close before Biden sent Johnson in to scupper the deal.

By no means is Putin a fair or completely honest guy….he’s a cretin, albeit a pretty intelligent and powerful one, but not much worse than our governments. Incarcerating and vilifying people for telling the truth and invading and destabilising countries based upon complete fabrications.

Putins interview was a very interesting one, has anyone from the west come out to counter what he has said?

[Old_pie]

... what gives Russia the right to think that they can have non NATO buffer states next to their border?

Exactly. They would have non NATO buffer states next to their border if those states didn't feel threatened. If their invasion of Ukraine succeeds they'll find a handful of NATO countries next to their border. The number of NATO countries on Russia's borders has increased as a direct response to fear of Russian expansionism.

[Old_pie]

J

Putins interview was a very interesting one, has anyone from the west come out to counter what he has said?

I've only read summaries including those from Poland. If he were British he would be sending troops to re-establish the British Empire on the basis that it really should be his. If he were Roman he'd be sending troops to re-establish the Roman Empire. Unfortunately he seems to be backed by generals etc who lament the loss of the USSR and wish to re-establish it.

It astounds me that Hungary have a PM who, despite being in a NATO country, seems to be a Putin supporter whilst I still recall the TV images of tanks rolling into Budapest to crush any thoughts Hungarians had of leaving the Warsaw Pact and aligning with the West. Must have been another "special military operation".

[drillerpie]

Just trying to put some context t some of Putins abhorrent decisions really. I just think that what he said about reaching out to talk and settling things held some serious truth, as supported by RFK saying that a peace deal was close before Biden sent Johnson in to scupper the deal.

Hi TSANHO if you send me your address in private I will send some armed men to take over and occupy as much of your property as I can. After that I might let you have some back, in fact we can hold talks about what I get to keep, because I'm a very reasonable man. Sound good?



By no means is Putin a fair or completely honest guy

That is quite an understatement.




but not much worse than our governments.

That is debatable, but exactly what he wants you to think. Trying to find the truth is so hard, it takes time, it's exhausting, so many competing views. Easier to say everyone is more or less the same because if nothing is particularly good or particularly bad, then nothing really matters.




Incarcerating and vilifying people for telling the truth and invading and destabilising countries based upon complete fabrications.


Ah but we can vote them out when they do that, so they go away after a while. In Russia you can't do that and there are many many other things that really aren't the same, no matter how much you squint.



Putins interview was a very interesting one

Out of curiosity what did you find most interesting?

[BigFatPie]

Estonia are so unconcerned about their Russian neighbours that they’ve given €500m to Ukraine in military aid, 1.4% of GDP. And they’ve proposed that all Western nations agree to 0.25% annually.

https://news.err.ee/1609222386/estonia-s-0-25-percent-gdp-aid-to-ukraine-proposal-needs-support-of-western-states

Seems like nato membership isn’t enough.

But obviously consumers of ropey podcasts and dodgy tv channels in the UK know better than the actual people who live on Putin’s doorstep.

[Newish Pie]

By no means is Putin a fair or completely honest guy….he’s a cretin, albeit a pretty intelligent and powerful one, but not much worse than our governments. Incarcerating and vilifying people for telling the truth and invading and destabilising countries based upon complete fabrications.


I don't mean to pick on this comment or on TSANHO in particular, but there's a trend or pattern which seems to be everywhere you look at the moment. It's the 'everyone is as bad as each other' or 'everyone lies' or 'they're all the same' argument. As an argument, it can have a certain appeal... cynicism is always easier; it can feel like you're making up your own mind; and there's usually a grain of truth in it, because we're dealing with real people and the real world rather than goodies and baddies and heroes and villains.

But I think it's a dangerous and seductive and potentially lazy position to adopt, and it's one that propagandists exploit to the fullest.

If as a propagandist, you can't defend the indefensible, all you have to do is to persuade enough people that the other lot are just as bad, or that everyone's at it, or that there's no such thing as facts. Plenty of examples of this, but my personal unfavourite was the desperate attempt at damage limitation after Partygate by repeatedly trying to claim that Starmer was guilty of the same thing. In the US, the Trumpists do this all the time.

Sometimes it's true that all sides in any given dispute are genuinely as bad as each other, but that needs to be an earned conclusion after weighing everything up... not what it often is, which is a kind of surrender to cynicism when faced with arguments that need careful thought and evaluation, rather than just surrendering to false equivalence. It's only balance when the facts and the arguments are balanced.

I try to be very careful with any source pushing (or trying to get me to conclude) that they're all as bad as each other, because usually it's just an attempt to muddy the waters and try to persuade people to give up and fall back on cynicism.

[Jampie]

I just think that what he said about reaching out to talk and settling things held some serious truth, as supported by RFK saying that a peace deal was close before Biden sent Johnson in to scupper the deal.

What was RFK's source on that?

[andy6025]

A few people in this thread have indicated that they believe that Russia’s invasion had nothing to do with NATO encroachment into Ukraine.

However I would remind them that Zelensky, president of Ukraine,
Jens Stoltenberg, the president of NATO, and members of Ukraine’s negotiating team, including their chief negotiator Davyd Arakhamia have publicly stated their disagreement by confirming that Ukrainian neutrality vis-a-vis NATO is the primary reason for Russia’s “special military operation.”

In the video linked to the article below, dated March 22, 2022, Zelenskyy is shown saying,

“Security guarantees and neutrality, non-nuclear status of our state. We are ready to go for it. This is the most important point. It was the main point for the Russian Federation as far as I can remember. And if I remember correctly this is why they started the war… I understand it’s impossible to force Russia completely from Ukrainian territory. It would lead to World War Three. I understand it and that is why I am talking about a compromise. Go back to where it all began. And then we will try to solve the Donbas issue, the complicated Donbas issue.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-prepared-discuss-neutrality-status-zelenskiy-tells-russian-journalists-2022-03-27/

On Sept 7, 2023, Jan’s Stoltenburg gave a speech to the European Union parliament in which he admitted that NATO enlargement was the primary reason for Russia’s invasion. He said,

The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/nato-chief-admits-expansion-behind-russian-invasion?fbclid=IwAR0yZvPwkI6HliRpQzHeVZlEg7moZLF7 cmpBA1wOZTzS1rA9x5AMP0naMog&format=amp

Furthermore, there were peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine in March or 2022, the month following the start of the invasion. While the negotiations were ultimately unsuccessful, several members of the Ukrainian negotiating team, including their chief negotiator, Davyd Arakhamia, has admitted that Ukrainian neutrality vis-a-vis NATO was clearly Putin’s primary objective in negotiations. In an interview with Natalia Moseichuk on Ukrainian State tv, he said:

“They really hoped almost to the last moment that they would force us to sign such an agreement so that we would take neutrality. It was the most important thing for them. They were prepared to end the war if we agreed to, – as Finland once did, – neutrality, and committed that we would not join NATO.

In fact, this was the key point. Everything else was simply rhetoric and political ‘seasoning’ about denazification, the Russian-speaking population and blah-blah-blah."


One may argue whether or not sovereign nations have the right to join their own defensive alliances unhindered - it’s certainly a fair debate. But what I find to be a more pertinent question is whether or not the leadership of certain NATO member states (namely the United States) rightly predicted that Ukraine’s path to NATO would lead to a Russian invasion, and if so, was that their intended outcome? I think certain evidence points to ‘yes’, although I’m open to hearing evidence that they were completely surprised by the result.

[Kent Magpie]

A few people in this thread have indicated that they believe that Russia’s invasion had nothing to do with NATO encroachment into Ukraine.

However I would remind them that Zelensky, president of Ukraine,
Jens Stoltenberg, the president of NATO, and members of Ukraine’s negotiating team, including their chief negotiator Davyd Arakhamia have publicly stated their disagreement by confirming that Ukrainian neutrality vis-a-vis NATO is the primary reason for Russia’s “special military operation.”

In the video linked to the article below, dated March 22, 2022, Zelenskyy is shown saying,

“Security guarantees and neutrality, non-nuclear status of our state. We are ready to go for it. This is the most important point. It was the main point for the Russian Federation as far as I can remember. And if I remember correctly this is why they started the war… I understand it’s impossible to force Russia completely from Ukrainian territory. It would lead to World War Three. I understand it and that is why I am talking about a compromise. Go back to where it all began. And then we will try to solve the Donbas issue, the complicated Donbas issue.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-prepared-discuss-neutrality-status-zelenskiy-tells-russian-journalists-2022-03-27/

On Sept 7, 2023, Jan’s Stoltenburg gave a speech to the European Union parliament in which he admitted that NATO enlargement was the primary reason for Russia’s invasion. He said,

The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/nato-chief-admits-expansion-behind-russian-invasion?fbclid=IwAR0yZvPwkI6HliRpQzHeVZlEg7moZLF7 cmpBA1wOZTzS1rA9x5AMP0naMog&format=amp

Furthermore, there were peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine in March or 2022, the month following the start of the invasion. While the negotiations were ultimately unsuccessful, several members of the Ukrainian negotiating team, including their chief negotiator, Davyd Arakhamia, has admitted that Ukrainian neutrality vis-a-vis NATO was clearly Putin’s primary objective in negotiations. In an interview with Natalia Moseichuk on Ukrainian State tv, he said:

“They really hoped almost to the last moment that they would force us to sign such an agreement so that we would take neutrality. It was the most important thing for them. They were prepared to end the war if we agreed to, – as Finland once did, – neutrality, and committed that we would not join NATO.

In fact, this was the key point. Everything else was simply rhetoric and political ‘seasoning’ about denazification, the Russian-speaking population and blah-blah-blah."


One may argue whether or not sovereign nations have the right to join their own defensive alliances unhindered - it’s certainly a fair debate. But what I find to be a more pertinent question is whether or not the leadership of certain NATO member states (namely the United States) rightly predicted that Ukraine’s path to NATO would lead to a Russian invasion, and if so, was that their intended outcome? I think certain evidence points to ‘yes’, although I’m open to hearing evidence that they were completely surprised by the result.

Andy, what is your view on Navalny's death? Who if anybody do you think is responsible?

[andy6025]

Andy, what is your view on Navalny's death? Who if anybody do you think is responsible?

I don’t know for sure but I think it’s reasonable to suspect that he was assassinated. Whether that was done because he’s a grassroots lover of freedom and democracy and was a threat to Russia’s political establishment, or whether he was a CIA/MI6 asset that was on their payroll to destabilize Russia at the behest of western foreign powers - I really don’t know.

Political assassinations are nothing new. Many believe Jefferey Epstein was assassinated in an American prison because he posed a threat to important and powerful politicians and celebrities, etc. Gonzalo Lira, as another example, was a Chilean journalist/blogger who recently died in an Ukraine jail for the crime of having criticized the Ukrainian government in YouTube videos. And yet another example is that Israeli troops appear to intentionally assassinate journalists reporting on Israel’s war crimes in Gaza and the West Bank. And lastly, Yevgeny Prigozhin (Aka “Putin’s Chef”) is believed by many to have been assassinated on Putin’s orders for his brief rebellion that the west cheered on and momentarily thought was going to be a monumental turning point in the Russo-Ukrainian war.

Yes, political assassinations certainly have a long history, and supposed “democracies” are no exceptions. Mysteriously though we have a tendency to project that we’re somehow above them. But the CIA has a long history of it, from Congo to Latin America and beyond.

[Jampie]

If Putin's war in Ukraine was to prevent NATO piling up on his borders its failed spectacularly at that too, considering it convinced Finland to join.

[upthemaggies]

Yes, political assassinations certainly have a long history, and supposed “democracies” are no exceptions. Mysteriously though we have a tendency to project that we’re somehow above them.

Lest we forget, our very own David Kelly

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/David_Kelly_2000s.jpg

[andy6025]

If Putin's war in Ukraine was to prevent NATO piling up on his borders its failed spectacularly at that too, considering it convinced Finland to join.

While i don’t think Russians are happy that Finland joined NATO, they consider Ukraine to eclipse it by far in terms of core geo strategic interests. And thus far they have prevented it from joining NATO.

Of course, from the Russian point of view they probably perceive that there’s been a slurry of side benefits to the invasion - some that might have been unpredictable, at least in their magnitude. For example, the extent to which the Europeans, and the Germans and uk in particular, have wrecked their own economies in response. I have little doubt that the Kremlin smells like cigars over that one.

But Europe seems quite content with the way things are going, so full steam ahead. And now that Finland is in the club (I hear that even Finnish children can kill 10 Russians with their bare hands) it’s all but a nail in the coffin to Putin’s imperialist plans.

[andy6025]

Lest we forget, our very own David Kelly

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/David_Kelly_2000s.jpg

Yes, well brought up. I think there’s a documentary about his case that is said to be quite good, but I can’t remember what it’s called.

[Kent Magpie]

While i don’t think Russians are happy that Finland joined NATO, they consider Ukraine to eclipse it by far in terms of core geo strategic interests. And thus far they have prevented it from joining NATO.

Of course, from the Russian point of view they probably perceive that there’s been a slurry of side benefits to the invasion - some that might have been unpredictable, at least in their magnitude. For example, the extent to which the Europeans, and the Germans and uk in particular, have wrecked their own economies in response. I have little doubt that the Kremlin smells like cigars over that one.

But Europe seems quite content with the way things are going, so full steam ahead. And now that Finland is in the club (I hear that even Finnish children can kill 10 Russians with their bare hands) it’s all but a nail in the coffin to Putin’s imperialist plans.

I think you are giving Putin far too much credit for our economic demise, we have done that all by ourselves, but it suits the government to blame Putin as it stops them from having to address the effects of Brexit and their own mismanagement. Our slide had started way before the war in Ukraine, and even before the pandemic (another big cause of our woes). So, much as you would like to toast Putin's genius, I think you are wrong about this.

[andy6025]

I think you are giving Putin far too much credit for our economic demise, we have done that all by ourselves, but it suits the government to blame Putin as it stops them from having to address the effects of Brexit and their own mismanagement. Our slide had started way before the war in Ukraine, and even before the pandemic (another big cause of our woes). So, much as you would like to toast Putin's genius, I think you are wrong about this.

While you’re not wrong on Brexit and Covid, etc., to be fair I did say that Europe wrecked their own economies rather than crediting Putin.

[SmiffyPie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68359252
No doubt this will be trashed by some but it is an interesting article.

[BigFatPie]

Putin should withdraw from the countries he’s invaded and he should stop murdering his political opponents. It would be nice if he could be tried for his crimes, but I accept that’s very unlikely.

Why the apologists and appeasers don’t think these things I’m not entirely sure.

[maddogslater]

Of course he should but he won't. I do fear Trump being elected and breaking up Nato, it seems almost inevitable that Nato will be at war with Russia sooner or later, your link is sobering reading Smithy.

[andy6025]

Some interesting developments lately:

Ukraine’ intelligence chief a few weeks ago came out and said he believes Navalny likely died of a blood clot, as Russia has claimed, giving fuel to “conspiracy theorists” who believe Covid vaccinations cause much higher rates of deadly blood clots (for the record, I have no idea if they’re right or not):

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/28630

And then there’s this guy: Boeing whistleblower John Barnett found dead of a supposed self-inflicted gun shot wound in his car amidst a busy schedule of testifying against Boeing. “Boeing said it was saddened to hear of Mr Barnett's passing”, with the usual helping of thoughts and prayers extended to his family. Did US government backed oligarchs assassinate him? I don’t know the answer to that either. In this case I imagine the apologists and appeasers will just ignore the story, as will the general population.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68534703.amp

[SmiffyPie]

Barnett is a strange one. I could imagine the "self-inflicted" part was his decision to blow the whistle! Funny how a lot people that rock the establishments (any establishment) boat suddenly fall foul to some very stange "accidents".

[andy6025]

I agree with everything you say, Smiffy, with the exception of the part where you find Barnett’s death strange - at least in so far is you might have meant that you found it stranger (or is it ‘more strange’?) than the others.

[SmiffyPie]

I agree with everything you say, Smiffy, with the exception of the part where you find Barnett’s death strange - at least in so far is you might have meant that you found it stranger (or is it ‘more strange’?) than the others.Well strange in those circumstances I guess. At face value a corporate, not a political/mob issue, on a hotel car park (his hotel? If you're going to do it wouldn't you do it in the room instead of the car? Of course someone could wait in the car park not in the room). I get your point though.

[andy6025]

Well strange in those circumstances I guess. At face value a corporate, not a political/mob issue, on a hotel car park (his hotel? If you're going to do it wouldn't you do it in the room instead of the car? Of course someone could wait in the car park not in the room). I get your point though.

Yes, that part struck me as puzzling too. Although I have heard that some who commit suicide take some care to leave as little a mess as possible for others.

Any ideas what they do with cars in these cases? Straight to scrap yard or do they send them to the cleaners? I suppose it depends on the will of the estate executor?

[upthemaggies]

Thomas Kingston!

And what on Earth was going on with that girl who was found dead at Sandringham? More than a decade ago now and nobody has ever been charged with her murder.

[andy6025]

John Barnett allegedly told a close family friend not long ago that if he winds up dead then don’t believe any claims of suicide:

https://www.newsweek.com/john-barnett-boeing-whistleblower-predicted-death-scandal-1879548

[Jampie]

John Barnett allegedly told a close family friend not long ago that if he winds up dead then don’t believe any claims of suicide:

https://www.newsweek.com/john-barnett-boeing-whistleblower-predicted-death-scandal-1879548

What are you suggesting? That because someone else might have been murdered, it's ok for Putin to have murdered his political opposition?

[SinceSept1959]

Mysterious deaths in many countries unfortunately.
As posters on here have illustrated Dr.David Kelly , don't forget Jill Dando , and the sudden passing of John Smith and Robin Cook too.

[andy6025]

What are you suggesting? That because someone else might have been murdered, it's ok for Putin to have murdered his political opposition?


What are you suggesting? That because someone else might have been murdered, it's ok for Putin to have murdered his political opposition?

Well for starters, the Ukrainian chief intelligence officer, who presumably has access to intelligence that you and I don’t, seems to believe Navalny wasn’t murdered, and that the Russians are being straight up honest injuns! How do we reconcile that?

Second, even if every single one of the people mentioned in this thread were assassinated at the behest of powerful politicians and oligarchs, what are our principles and how do apply them consistently? Do we demand the dismantling of all political establishments? Do we give a pass to all of them? Something in between?

The underlying assumption in this thread, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that Putin ordered a hit on Navalny. And as such, Putin is an evil man at the head of an evil regime, and that good people everywhere, including our own politicians, ought to do everything in our power (overt and covert) to stop him and dismantle his evil regime. Given the fact that Russia’s political establishment is at least on par, if not even more hard core in their thinking than Putin, and moreover that the population is brainwashed and/or scared into thinking this is all either untrue or outright acceptable/desirable, the most logical means of suppressing this evilness is to break Russia into a series of significantly weakened banana republics, sanctioned up the wazoo, so that they are incapable of unleashing and spreading their evil ways on the world.

Ok, if that’s at least semi-accurate… do we apply this logic with consistency to our own murderous and despotic regimes, and the brainwashed populations they not only preside over, but who are likewise either in denial or in acceptance. Do we take to the streets and tear down our own regimes? Do we seek out and actively support independently minded politicians who recognize our systems for what it is, and struggle with all their hearts to change it? Ought we to collude with some foreign powers who (either overtly or covertly want to bring about our regime changes), national breakups, and international isolation of ourselves in some quasi ritual of self flagellation?

Or do we perhaps accept that these events happen, recognize that they are symptomatic that all of our systems, including our own, are a really far cry from the cute catch phrases we typically apply to ourselves (“decency”, “freedom”, “democracy”, “rules based order”, “human rights”, etc).


Only then can we begin to have a serious analysis and prescription of situation.

I would even go even waaaay out on a limb and guess that Navalny himself was likely already very much part of this intercontinental tug of war in which opposing powers ‘benevolently’ (lol) try to impose their “human rights”, “democracy” and “decency” on the other, simply they can keep their own populations under thumb. On the other hand, our other friend probably took exception to Boeing making crappy planes that suck people out the doors. But I don’t know, maybe he had an axe to grind against Boeing. But what do I know? I’m just a naive Putin apologist.

[andy6025]

In case that last part isn’t much clear, I’ll sum it up as follows:

In cases of spy vs spy, it doesn’t keep me up at night when some of them get caught and killed. Popular movies would even have us believe they issued licenses to do so. But I find it somewhat amusing when our politicians cry foul and pour their indignation all over the headlines when it happens.

Joe 6-pack taking a bullet for trying to call out the cutting of corners down at the local factory is a little sadder, but it doesn’t surprise me much either.

[Jampie]

Do you want to have a third try and actually answer the question this time?

[andy6025]

Do you want to have a third try and actually answer the question this time?

Since you couldn’t understand my previous answer, I will indeed try again. My answer is this:

I’m ok either way you like, so long as you are consistent. And I don’t cry crocodile tears over people that are on the payroll.

Is that a clear enough answer for you?

[Jampie]

Since you couldn’t understand my previous answer, I will indeed try again. My answer is this:

I’m ok either way you like, so long as you are consistent. And I don’t cry crocodile tears over people that are on the payroll.

Is that a clear enough answer for you?

This isn't an answer to the question. Try again.

The question, which you've quoted twice now is:

"What are you suggesting? That because someone else might have been murdered, it's ok for Putin to have murdered his political opposition?"

Are you suggesting that or not? Very simple question. A yes or a no would have sufficed.

[BanjoPie]

Just for information - Andy6025 is an AI bot

[andy6025]

This isn't an answer to the question. Try again.

The question, which you've quoted twice now is:

"What are you suggesting? That because someone else might have been murdered, it's ok for Putin to have murdered his political opposition?"

Are you suggesting that or not? Very simple question. A yes or a no would have sufficed.

Did he murder his political opposition? The chief of Ukrainian intelligence says he didn’t.

Are you calling him a liar?

[BanjoPie]

Just for information - Andy6025 is an AI bot

You will find the same bot (andy6025) on many different media boards - (just read his posts & answers carefully)

[andy6025]

You will find the same bot (andy6025) on many different media boards - (just read his posts & answers carefully)

Well done, you’ve genioisly unravelled the whole conspiracy: Budanov is lying because andy6025 is a bot.

[Jampie]

He's not AI. Might use AI for some of his rambling nonsense pieces but he isn't purely AI.

Definitely an account dedicated to posting pro-putin garbage tho.

I think he's not answering the yes or no question because his mission in this thread is 100% to just muddy the waters, and he may well be in a position where criticising putin or even seeming do means being thrown out a window. But who knows, he really could just be an incredibly gullible westerner.

[BanjoPie]

He's not AI. Might use AI for some of his rambling nonsense pieces but he isn't purely AI.

Definitely an account dedicated to posting pro-putin garbage tho.

I think he's not answering the yes or no question because his mission in this thread is 100% to just muddy the waters, and he may well be in a position where criticising putin or even seeming do means being thrown out a window. But who knows, he really could just be an incredibly gullible westerner.

Have you googled andy6025 - he is all over different media platforms some of the very dodgy

[andy6025]

He's not AI. Might use AI for some of his rambling nonsense pieces but he isn't purely AI.

Definitely an account dedicated to posting pro-putin garbage tho.

I think he's not answering the yes or no question because his mission in this thread is 100% to just muddy the waters, and he may well be in a position where criticising putin or even seeming do means being thrown out a window. But who knows, he really could just be an incredibly gullible westerner.


He's not AI. Might use AI for some of his rambling nonsense pieces but he isn't purely AI.

Definitely an account dedicated to posting pro-putin garbage tho.

I think he's not answering the yes or no question because his mission in this thread is 100% to just muddy the waters, and he may well be in a position where criticising putin or even seeming do means being thrown out a window. But who knows, he really could just be an incredibly gullible westerner.

I’m not answering your question with a simple yes or no answer because it’s based on what might well be a false premise - the assumption that Putin ordered Navalny to be killed. I said before that it’s reasonable to suspect that he did, but that I wasn’t certain he did.

What makes you so certain, what do you know that Ukrainian intelligence doesn’t?

If he did kill Navalny, then what? Does that mean that we must isolate and condemn any world leader politician who engages in assassinations? Look at how well that assumption worked out for Joe Biden when he labelled Saudi Crown Prince MBS a pariah for the presumed ordered assassination of a Saudi journalist. Not long after that Joe had to suck it up in order to try to convince him to open the oil spigots.

“President Biden, is Saudi Arabia still a pariah?”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tKd2pFA_SKY&pp=ygUvTXIgcHJlc2lkZW50IGRvIHlvdSBzdGlsbCBjb25zaWR lciBoaW0gYSBwYXJpYWg%3D

In case you don’t remember how it turned out, Biden failed to convince MBS to increase oil output.

I don’t think I’m the naive one here

[andy6025]

Have you googled andy6025 - he is all over different media platforms some of the very dodgy

I confess, I was on a board looking for a new cartridge/stylus for a turn table. I also posted a few times on the Pride of Nottingham message board. Anything else with weird alphabets wasn’t me though… honest injun. 😉