O/T:- Election

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Originally Posted by keldsyke

Can’t wait for the Utopia that awaits us soon, it’s going to be such a change from the last 14 years 🙂 🥂

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I wouldn’t pretend a Labour government will be a ‘utopia’, but like the 97-2010 administration it’ll be miles better than what we’ve had lately. Keir Starmer did extraordinarily well to become one of the top barristers in the country from a relatively humble background(I thought Tory voters approved of people who’ve improved themselves, apparently many still prefer those who’ve had everything handed to them on a plate like Johnson) and then led the CPS so ably David Cameron gave him a knighthood, which to be fair he shouldn’t have accepted in my opinion. I think he’ll be a very good Prime Minister.

There’s policies like the part nationalisation of the railways and a national energy company, school breakfast clubs more teachers and relaxing planning laws. More to come I’d guess. Meanwhile the Tories are promising to *checks* make young people work for free, and also never tax the state pension no matter how well off the pensioner is. Way to go lads.

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

I believe it will be better.

Not because I have any confidence in Labour, it's because this government has been by some distance the worst I have ever experienced in over 50 years of being eligible to vote.

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Would any Tory government be considered by you as the best government that you have lived under in the last 50 years?

I believe that those that think that one particular party should deliver everything that is on their own personal wishlist are deluded.

I've never felt any political party wherever I've lived could be expected to do this. It is probably more a symptom of social media where everyone, whether they know what they are talking about or not, now have an opinion.

As a voter, I've always thought what is best for the country I live in - irrespective of whether or not it benefits me personally - and voted for that party.

My view is skewed by the fact that I believe that taxation is theft and so it does push me to one side of the political spectrum ;), but people are going to be severely disappointed if they believe by voting Labour, that they will deliver Utopia or if by voting Conservative, that they will deliver Utopia.

I'm also a believer that as time goes on, society regresses, so it's about voting for the best of a bad bunch.

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

This National Service plan is sheer lunacy from a government that has completely lost the plot. I can only think it's aimed at the gammons, but most of them have buggered off to Reform UK long ago. It will go down like a lead balloon among younger voters, where the Tories have very little support anyway. It will be a big boost to Labour without them having to lift a finger!

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With the Tories having little or no support with the young voter - what do they have to lose? I personally have no problem with National Service if the person is under 18 years of age and doesn't have a job. What has the State to lose?

I also find it humorous when people talk about it being a 'right-wing' doctrine to have National Service, when many left-wing, socialist countries currently have it in place. See below:

Algeria
Angola
Argentina
Armenia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Brazil
Cambodia
Cape Verde/Cabo Verde
Chad
Chile
China
Colombia
Congo (Democratic Republic of)
Cuba
Cyprus
Denmark
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Finland
Georgia
Greece
Guatemala
Guinea-Bissau
Indonesia
Iran
Israel
Ivory Coast/Cote d'Ivoire
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lithuania
Mali
Mexico
Moldova
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar(Burma)
Niger
North Korea
Norway
Paraguay
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Russia
San Marinojure
Sao Tome and Principe
Senegal
Singapore
Slovakia
Somalia
South Korea
South Sudan
Spain
Sudan
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Timor Leste
Tunisi
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Venezuela
Vietnam

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Originally Posted by Lullapie

With the Tories having little or no support with the young voter - what do they have to lose? I personally have no problem with National Service if the person is under 18 years of age and doesn't have a job. What has the State to lose?

I also find it humorous when people talk about it being a 'right-wing' doctrine to have National Service, when many left-wing, socialist countries currently have it in place. See below:

Algeria
Angola
Argentina
Armenia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Brazil
Cambodia
Cape Verde/Cabo Verde
Chad
Chile
China
Colombia
Congo (Democratic Republic of)
Cuba
Cyprus
Denmark
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Finland
Georgia
Greece
Guatemala
Guinea-Bissau
Indonesia
Iran
Israel
Ivory Coast/Cote d'Ivoire
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lithuania
Mali
Mexico
Moldova
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar(Burma)
Niger
North Korea
Norway
Paraguay
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Russia
San Marinojure
Sao Tome and Principe
Senegal
Singapore
Slovakia
Somalia
South Korea
South Sudan
Spain
Sudan
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Timor Leste
Tunisi
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Venezuela
Vietnam

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Left wing socialist countries or just a list of countries. Knowing the Tories they would base their model on Hitlers Youth , not your so called list of socialist establishments.

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Originally Posted by Lullapie

With the Tories having little or no support with the young voter - what do they have to lose? I personally have no problem with National Service if the person is under 18 years of age and doesn't have a job. What has the State to lose?

I also find it humorous when people talk about it being a 'right-wing' doctrine to have National Service, when many left-wing, socialist countries currently have it in place. See below:

Algeria
Angola
Argentina
Armenia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Brazil
Cambodia
Cape Verde/Cabo Verde
Chad
Chile
China
Colombia
Congo (Democratic Republic of)
Cuba
Cyprus
Denmark
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Finland
Georgia
Greece
Guatemala
Guinea-Bissau
Indonesia
Iran
Israel
Ivory Coast/Cote d'Ivoire
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lithuania
Mali
Mexico
Moldova
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar(Burma)
Niger
North Korea
Norway
Paraguay
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Russia
San Marinojure
Sao Tome and Principe
Senegal
Singapore
Slovakia
Somalia
South Korea
South Sudan
Spain
Sudan
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Timor Leste
Tunisi
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Venezuela
Vietnam

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Some of those countries don't have compulsory military service, Spain for instance abolished it in 2001 but can call up 18-25 year olds in a urgent situation if reqd.

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Originally Posted by Lullapie

My view is skewed by the fact that I believe that taxation is theft and so it does push me to one side of the political spectrum ;),

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Who do you vote for in that case? The Libertarian Party? Do they still exist?

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Originally Posted by slack_pie

Who do you vote for in that case? The Libertarian Party? Do they still exist?

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It's a difficult one. There's no mainstream political party that would advocate zero income tax. There's too many government jobs that rely on income tax - not to mention the number of accountancy firms that make a fortune out of it.

It's true that taxation is there to redistribute wealth, but what we assume is that it is redistributing it to the poorer members of society, whereas I believe that taxation benefits the super rich more.

Think about the carbon tax regime. Yes, large users of fossil fuels pay the tax in relation to the damage they are doing to the climate, but they don't pluck the money out of thin air. The man (and woman) on the street has to pay higher power charges to accommodate the carbon tax. The additional charges are often much greater than the carbon tax charges. Therefore it is taking more tax from Joe Bloggs and redistributing it to the super wealthy (the shareholders - not the mum and dad ones who own a few shares, but those that own a large percentage of the power generating companies). You don't think for one minute that the super wealthy don't have the means to pay as little tax as possible.

Anyway, in New Zealand, we have a libertarian party, called the ACT Party (Association of Consumers and Taxpayers). They believe in minimal interference from government and as we have Proportional Representation here, they have a large say in the coalition government.

They believe in reducing red tape and the cutting waste in the public sector. Not the same doctrine as many think libertarians are in the UK. The ACT Party is definitely the most right wing party in New Zealand. You can be libertarian and right wing too.

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Originally Posted by i961pie

Some of those countries don't have compulsory military service, Spain for instance abolished it in 2001 but can call up 18-25 year olds in a urgent situation if reqd.

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I agree, but the inference was that only right wing countries have national service. The US is the same. China doesn't have conscription but it's citizens feel bound to enlist due to have they are brought up and their allegiance to the State.

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Originally Posted by PedroTheFisherman66

Left wing socialist countries or just a list of countries. Knowing the Tories they would base their model on Hitlers Youth , not your so called list of socialist establishments.

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The list was taken from the internet that had some form of conscription. Very few were full on forced conscription, but that isn't what Sunak is suggesting either.

I think that comment is a bit drama-queen-esque. Your understanding of history is a bit tainted too. Hitler Youth had nothing to do with conscription. It was a tool that the Nazis used to brainwash children into putting the 'Fatherland' and the 'Fuhrer' before everything else in life. Do you not see similar things happening today in schools and universities in parts of the world, but to a lesser degree?

It's easier to change someone's mind when they are younger.