OT Tax cut madness

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

I think you’ve, probably deliberately, entirely missed my point. My objection is to certain aspects of our society being run according to the morally suspect rules of ‘supply and demand’.
Taken to their extreme we are then dealing with a ‘tout mentality’ as currently exemplified, imo, by the oil and gas companies who are profiteering massively at a time when ‘the people’ are about to suffer real hardship.

As regards your elderly relative...the price she gets for her car will be determined by ‘market forces’ to an extent, but ‘market forces’ are, as I’m sure you already know, a little nebulous. This is something you may discover if you go down the route I suggested...in my own experience ‘Motorway’ ensured that I received about £1500 more for a three year old, low mileage (because of Covid) £20k vehicle than another particularly well known car purchasing business...so be careful out there.

I’m not a Marxist (or an anything ‘ist’ actually) but ‘from each according to his ability to each according to his needs’ has, in philosophical terms, a great deal going for it imo, and that applies equally to fuel, tax and tax cuts and the sale of your elderly relative’s car.

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Your motorway example touches on other aspects of the supply/demand conundrum - you’ve chosen (for probably sensible reasons, I’ve used buying sites like that too) to sell into an ‘imperfect market’ (ie you’ve not offered the car to everyone who may want to buy it) with the result that you probably didn’t get the maximum revenue for it. But there was no ‘moral’ aspect to it, you’ve just passed profit further down the line. BUT it’s still supply and demand.

Your ‘non’ Marxist approach fails as soon as someone decides not to play by those rules which is why it’ll never work but as ever I admire your idealism

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Where’s your oppo to win the argument by calling us all racist bigot idiots when you need him…

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:rolleyes: I don’t have an ‘oppo’, I don’t need him any more than he needs me, he may well not agree with me on this one, he rarely calls you/‘us’ all ‘racist bigot idiots’, although you are acting like the latter of that triumvirate by even raising the issue...so, no idea where he is...where’s yours to bang on about liberal lefties crying and screaming?

P.S. I offered my car to a bigger market than I would be able to access in other private circumstances and I distanced myself from any further responsibility by allowing ‘Motorway’ to both act as and find a further ‘middleman’. I checked the relative price offered by three such organisations and they were significantly better and more helpful than the others. I didn’t have to go anywhere...simply had to take ten photos of the car and fit them onto their ‘grid’. A price was agreed, they collected it...job done and that’s why I recommended it to GP’s elderly relative. I got the best price...and more than I expected...easily and without having to haggle with ‘vultures’.

I later saw the car I’d sold on sale (online) in Worcestershire for £4k more than I’d sold it for. Seemed to be hanging around and I can’t see huge profit in that by the time it’s sold but do I care? Not one bit.

Just give you my experiance of the car market.
My lad was going to buy a brand new Astra and chop in his old one.
They offered him 4500 book price. I burst out laughing and asked them if they were serious? Yep they were. Even after I pointed out to them, that the car market was going into chaos, with a microchip shortage, which would have a knock on ripple effect through every tier of sale.
They wouldn't budge, so we walked.
I sold it for him privately for him, inside 7 days for 7.2k to a small dealer. I believe they flogged it on for 8.7k .
How?well the book can say what it wants, the demand was there, as no one wanted a new car, without the tech in packs available. Second hand values rocketed.
He bought Japanese and waited longer, but was happier.

Value is what folks are willing to pay. Morals mean nothing.

Anyway...moving on and away from an episode of ‘Top Gear’...it seems Liz Truss has gone down like a lead balloon on the back of her local radio and Kuenssberg performances and that her and KK’s tax cutting is indeed earning the reputation of ‘madness’ even amongst Tory supporters.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

So in essence you were happy to profiteer when selling your own car. Case proven, no further discussion neede

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Sorry...missed this...but...
1) how can my actions be described as ‘profiteering’?
2) I have never, as you know, suggested that ‘profit’ is a ‘dirty word’...only that unreasonable profits via the extremes of a ‘supply and demand’ mentality are immoral.
3) I doubt I actually profited from the sale of my car...I was just trying to provide you with the advice you requested as to how your elderly relative could make as much/lose as little from the sale of hers...alternatively you could hand the business over to ‘Honest Tricky’s Car Sales’. ;D

Moving back to the topic of your thread. I also believe that KK’s tax cuts for the richest were both immoral and entirely unjustified and, contrary to what I think you suggested, are likely to be undone by the end of the week destroying what little credibility he and Truss have left.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Moving back to the topic of your thread. I also believe that KK’s tax cuts for the richest were both immoral and entirely unjustified and, contrary to what I think you suggested, are likely to be undone by the end of the week destroying what little credibility he and Truss have left.

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Oops...sorry, underestimated...not by the end of the week...nor even the end of the Tory Party Conference or the end of the day...not even by the end of the morning...but by the end of breakfast...‘U’ turn done.
Total shambles from the ‘we have a plan’...it lasted a week...dynamic duo.
For God’s sake just go...for mac’s benefit, to provide a football context, ‘They don’t know what they’re doing’.

Well **** me, I bow to your higher economic knowledge. Happy to see it happen, and surprised in equal measure. What a climb down, unprecedented. Time to bring Boris back....

But now you want them to go, and have another 6 weeks of the paralysis that you so despaired about only weeks ago?

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

But now you want them to go, and have another 6 weeks of the paralysis that you so despaired about only weeks ago?

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I despaired of the vacuum that had been unnecessarily created...filling it full of incompetents is no answer.

You initially and immediately called it right with words such as ‘madness’, ‘ridiculous’ and ‘ludicrous’...I just said it had to be reversed...but honestly...I don’t know how he/they can continue. Has any combination of PM and Chancellor ever done so much damage in so short a time?

Just a question of who proves better at throwing the other under the proverbial ‘bus’ now. My money is on Truss...God help us!

‘Time to bring Boris back’??? What...as Chancellor?:O So truss worthy!

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Well **** me, I bow to your higher economic knowledge. Happy to see it happen, and surprised in equal measure. What a climb down, unprecedented. Time to bring Boris back....

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Steady on there GP, U turns have become a Toaraidh "thing" since Maggie refused to turn and stuck to it. This one just seems to be the quickest one they've done. Akin to a handbrake turn whilst doing 70 in the outside lane of a motorway. Only yesterday morning we saw surgical Truss on BBC saying how brilliant scrapping the 45p rate was. Yesterday also saw KamiKwasi praising it in a Tweet. Less than 24 hours later it's gone. Dispatched to the rubbish heap. According to KK, not because it was wrong politically or a financially bad idea but because it "distracted from the rest of this very good (his words not mine) package". The crash or the pound as a result of the mini budget was not serious. It'll all come good he said. The man who praised scrapping 45p yesterday who reinstated it today and, as a result, had to rewrite his planned conference speech of this very afternoon.

IMO, just about the entire mini budget is contrary to Toraidh historical beliefs. The original mini budget had £45Bn in tax cuts. All to be financed by borrowing. The reversing of the scrapping of the 45p top rate has reduced that borrowing to £43Bn. The £ rose to $1.12 but has already slipped again to £1.11 ($1.17 mid September) which is where it was on Thursday. It looks like this U turn is not only embarrassing, it looks like being ineffective.

IMO, they should just go. No guarantee that whoever the next PM/Party/Coalition they'd be any better as there's no sign of anybody with enough nouse in politics to get it right.