Careless Tories!

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Originally Posted by Ramshank72

Let me help you understand: the last Labour government took us to 2 wars, and the Lib Dems were happy to jump in bed with the Tories to get into power, at the expense of their manifesto. If the Tories are "Careless", it's only fair to assign a similar generalisation to the other main parties. I wouldn't vote for any of the current 3, would rather spoil my paper.
It's only "pie in the sky" because it's not on offer.

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Please always add such clarifications, rA doesn’t get the humourous/analogous stuff.

You’re right though, as Jamie observed in The Thick Of It, there are no clean hands

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Don’t begin to understand the second half of that post but, ‘who takes over from the careless Tories then...?’
How about this for a novel idea...a collection of scrupulous people with integrity and values that include compassion, an understanding of the real world and a desire for greater egalitarianism over the never ending quest for personal wealth and greed.

I know, ‘that’s just pie in the sky rA’...but I don’t actually care which Party delivers it or even if it’s some sort of coalition...it’s what we need and someone needs to push the ‘reset’ button soon.

P.S. So far...and I never expected to say this...Justin Welby seems closest!

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Ah so you are a closet Christian after all.

Yes it is pie in the sky as I don't believe such a group with these qualities exist, and if they did they would quickly run the economy into the ground with Truss like efficiency due to the unwillingness to make the tough decisions.

Unfortunately I think there may be no solution as options become more polarised and perhaps extreme. A centrist coalition based on green principles (tempered by sense, not glue) might be our best option but there seems no mechanism to achieve this in our stifling two party, vested interest, political system.

Even then our destiny is dependent on external international forces which we cannot control. Multi national corporations, the need to import food and consumer durables mean we don't really control ourselves, let alone govern ourselves. And this is post Brexit Britain - we may have minimised European involvement in our governance but we are still cast adrift on a global ocean

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Originally Posted by Ramshank72

Let me help you understand: the last Labour government took us to 2 wars, and the Lib Dems were happy to jump in bed with the Tories to get into power, at the expense of their manifesto. If the Tories are "Careless", it's only fair to assign a similar generalisation to the other main parties. I wouldn't vote for any of the current 3, would rather spoil my paper.
It's only "pie in the sky" because it's not on offer.

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Attachment 23350

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Fundamentally a decent bloke who was lecturing the country on "back to basics" whilst shagging Edwina Curry! Of course by the very low bar set by the current Tory politicians he probably is, but essentially a weak leader and his privatisation of the railways has been an utter disaster!

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Yeah that was a strange one with Edwina Currie, but then Paddy Pantsdown's popularity surged when news of his indiscretions hit.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

That is, of course, true...and we all have our failings...but compared with what we have today, each time he speaks he seems like a comparative breath of fresh air to me.

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Isn't that because compared to todays shower, anybody looks decent? Also given he isn't holding a position of power or looking to do so in the future its comparatively easy to appear reasonable, though not a given of course.

I accept that there are decent Tories - or at least vaguely competent ones, most of which left after the Boris purge! Just as there are untrustworthy and incompetent Labour politicians.

I do think though that memories are short, Major was responsible for promoting or implementing a number of negative policies during his time in government and of course they ****ed the economy - funny how thats forgotten, yet Labour get blamed for the 2018 world wide financial crash!

Let us also not forget that these people still vote or support the Tory party even during the current few years of disgrace, these "decent" people only appear when all hope of power is receding.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Ah so you are a closet Christian after all.

Yes it is pie in the sky as I don't believe such a group with these qualities exist, and if they did they would quickly run the economy into the ground with Truss like efficiency due to the unwillingness to make the tough decisions.

Unfortunately I think there may be no solution as options become more polarised and perhaps extreme. A centrist coalition based on green principles (tempered by sense, not glue) might be our best option but there seems no mechanism to achieve this in our stifling two party, vested interest, political system.

Even then our destiny is dependent on external international forces which we cannot control. Multi national corporations, the need to import food and consumer durables mean we don't really control ourselves, let alone govern ourselves. And this is post Brexit Britain - we may have minimised European involvement in our governance but we are still cast adrift on a global ocean

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Giving we are living Brexit, how are we post Brexit?

I'm bemused especially by older posters that there is a view that somehow in the past it was so different! The only real difference is that the Uk is no longer a major power in the world, accepting that and recognising that whilst we still have considerable "soft" power would go a long way to getting real about the issues that confront us.

This *******s about war mongering is strange, true Blair clung onto the coat tails of the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan, but then we no longer have the capability to do these things on our own, remember Eden and Suez, another disastrous military operation which ended badly for the UK?

With the exception of WW2 and possibly the Korean War, most military conflicts in history that the UK has had a hand in can be viewed as dubious. yes I do include the Falkland's conflict in that, it was precipitated by the Thatcher government withdrawing military support in that region which led a desperate Galtieri to invade. In reality talks about ceding at least partial control to Argentina had been under way for years and it was highly likely that had the invasion not happened the Falkland's would now be part of Argentina, instead of being a costly outpost of the British Empire which costs tax payers untold millions to protect and own.

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Originally Posted by SithHappens

Yeah that was a strange one with Edwina Currie, but then Paddy Pantsdown's popularity surged when news of his indiscretions hit.

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Generally I'm not that fussed what people get up to in their private lives, Major's problem was that he was making "family values" (whatever that nebulous term means) a central government policy whilst doing exactly the opposite.

Its what has got Zahawi in trouble, not so much the "carelessness that saw him fined by HMRC for less than clear tax arrangements, but that he sought to intimidate journalists investigating him with legal threats and has refused to be clear on his arrangements since.

Seems to me if he had come clean, admitted it and been honest, the matter would ahve blown over. Even now, he could just have done the honourable thing, accepted that it wasn't good for a Government Minister to be fined by the HMRC, resigned and within months could have been quietly reappointed. His attempts to brazen the matter out will hopefully be his downfall, especially as now other financial arrangements are being investigated and seem equally dubious!

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Originally Posted by Ramshank72

Let me help you understand: the last Labour government took us to 2 wars, and the Lib Dems were happy to jump in bed with the Tories to get into power, at the expense of their manifesto. If the Tories are "Careless", it's only fair to assign a similar generalisation to the other main parties. I wouldn't vote for any of the current 3, would rather spoil my paper.
It's only "pie in the sky" because it's not on offer.

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Thats correct up to a point. If your condemning politicians who take the UK into wars or conflicts, there aren't many which on detailed examination one could support. Eden and Suez being just one example.

But being careless in geo politics is different from a general atmosphere of sleaze, corruption, being unduly influenced by mega rich donors and promoting a fake right wing driven agenda, to encourage bigoted and xenophobic sentiments.

Blair certainly found a dishonest way to get "into bed" with the USA on Iraq, that is rightly condemned, but I'd argue Labour's time in power was actually very positive for the country and whilst there is no guarantee such a situation wouldn't happen again, its unlikely with the current leader. Labour were also instrumental in the resolution of the Balkan conflicts, crucially with UN support.

The Lib Dems simply cast aside all principles for the chance of power, but they were also politically naïve, they didn't actually achieve any of their objectives and would have done better to form a minority government, but hey that's history and politics.

In the end one has to make a choice based on which party would do the greatest good, or possibly the least damage - that's clearly Labour at this moment in time - however flawed they may be and lets face it no political party is without flaws and no political party in a democracy is going to satisfy everybody's wants, needs or preferences, that's the nature of politics and indeed human life.

To me, unless one lives in a constituency where labour doesn't have a chance, voting Labour is the only sensible choice because its absolutely clear that the current Tory administration is incompetent, and increasingly heading towards the extreme right of politics and history tells us that never ends well.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Generally I'm not that fussed what people get up to in their private lives, Major's problem was that he was making "family values" (whatever that nebulous term means) a central government policy whilst doing exactly the opposite.

Its what has got Zahawi in trouble, not so much the "carelessness that saw him fined by HMRC for less than clear tax arrangements, but that he sought to intimidate journalists investigating him with legal threats and has refused to be clear on his arrangements since.

Seems to me if he had come clean, admitted it and been honest, the matter would ahve blown over. Even now, he could just have done the honourable thing, accepted that it wasn't good for a Government Minister to be fined by the HMRC, resigned and within months could have been quietly reappointed. His attempts to brazen the matter out will hopefully be his downfall, especially as now other financial arrangements are being investigated and seem equally dubious!

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Coming clean is the best way. I reckon if BJ had come clean over party gate there would have been far less backlash, but he didn't, he lied and once you are seen to lie trust quickly disappears. Its a reflection on the character of the person.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Please always add such clarifications, rA doesn’t get the humourous/analogous stuff.

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There you go again with your untrue, witless, derogatory and inflammatory asides which I suppose will now be followed by your ‘inevitable’ and pitiful ‘coda’...oh I’m ‘just joshing rA’.

What I do do, unlike you, is try and respond to arguments that are put to me rather than prove my point that you run off only to return later with some ill thought through and irrelevant rebuke days later.

As I said a while ago...best we just ignore one another...have a lovely holiday...watch out for those ‘pesky foreigners’. Bye.