O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

A very good idea. Not many takers I’d guess.

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Id happily sign up for that.

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Originally Posted by BanjoPie

Some people are beyond help - If the anti-vaxers are so sure of their facts, they should sign away their right to treatment for covid.

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The problem with this method though, is that we don't deny medical help for smokers that might get lung problems, diabetics (T2) due to dipping in the biccy tin too often, drink drivers that crash, Saturday night fights ending up in A&E, etc, etc.

Although some people might agree that this would be a good approach.

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Originally Posted by SaltySeaDog

The problem with this method though, is that we don't deny medical help for smokers that might get lung problems, diabetics (T2) due to dipping in the biccy tin too often, drink drivers that crash, Saturday night fights ending up in A&E, etc, etc.

Although some people might agree that this would be a good approach.

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Reminds me of this.

"Fury at ‘do not resuscitate’ notices given to Covid patients with learning disabilities
Vulnerable people have encountered ‘shocking discrimination’ during pandemic, says Mencap charity"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...g-difficulties

I have very little trust left in the NHS.

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Originally Posted by upthemaggies

I would think it stands to reason that the worse the symptoms, the more likely you are to spread a greater viral load and vice-versa.
As vaccinated also catch it, this applies to them. We're being told vaxxed have reduced symptoms, but if that's the case then this would logically be offset (in terms of spread) by the fact they are less likely to isolate or take precautions with mild symptoms, believing they are protected and able to protect others. The more ill you are the less choice you have to be out and about.

There's also the question in which group would the virus more rapidly learn (evolve) to evade vaccines? Logically it has to be in the vaccinated, because it's such a leaky vaccine.

So I think there would be a very strong case to be made that vaccinated are now spreading and driving vaccine resistant variants at least as much as unvaxxed, probably far more, particularly as there are now more vaccinated than unvaxxed, or at least in developed countries. It would make for terribly bad optics though to admit this was the case, so the unvaxxed - as was predicted some six months ago - will instead be blamed for the vaxxed not having the protection originally promised.

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Anti-vax rhetoric. The first line is very questionable.

Any comment UTM on why number of deaths and hospitalization dropped so considerably at the same time as vaccinations were introduced?

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.

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Agree with this. The only way out of this mess without many more deaths - and long term covid-related disease - is vaccination. It's the unvaccinated who are driving mutations, not the vaccinated. Viruses mutate when they replicate, and that's much more likely in an unvaccinated person. Hence mutations originating in places where vaccination rates are low.

I'm a bit puzzled by the analogy with Nazism, and any suggestion that the unvaccinated could be compared in any way to the plight of persecuted Jews. Those who aren't vaccinated risk their own health, their own lives, but also the health and lives of others by facilitating an increased risk of spread and mutation of the disease, along with all the resulting pressure on the NHS, which in itself causes others to suffer. People who choose not to be vaccinated aren't victims, those who suffer and/or die are the victims. I do however believe that everyone should have the right to choose whether to be vaccinated.

I was in hospital earlier this year (post-covid related) and chatted to some of the registrars about what it had been like for them working during the peak in the pre-vaccine days. It was absolutely heartbreaking listening. We can't kid ourselves that actually, we're wildly overcounting because we're including people who die 'with' covid. We ahad poor reporting structures in place at the outset of the pandemic, so many earlier covid deaths have never even been included.

However it's counted, it's not going to be perfect, but it's unlikely to be practical, or possible, to ascertain the exact cause of every single death, particularly in the sick and elderly. It's so fraught with difficulty. Yes, counting those dying with covid, rather than of covid is a blunt instrument, but it's about as good as it'll get. The excess death data bears out the horror of what's going on.

Anyway, it's booster time for me in the morning..

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Originally Posted by upthemaggies

Yes, I wouldn't and didn't claim they *all* feel that way, but some do.

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Sure. I wasn't saying you had claimed that. I was just pointing out that whatever value you place on some of them saying one thing, it is counterbalanced by someone them presumably thinking the exact opposite.

I suppose I was questioning the value of the 'some people say...' argument.

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Originally Posted by upthemaggies

Seeing what's happening in some other countries, I can see why people are making the connection.

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In some countries they're moving towards compulsory vaccinations. Not something I would get behind, but still a gazillion miles away from the holocaust.

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Originally Posted by upthemaggies

The world we've grown up in and taken for granted is not the default setting, something like Nazi Germany, the Chinese revolution or the Soviet Union will almost certainly happen again. If what we are seeing now is the very beginnings of the end for the free west - as we've known it - collapsing over the course of several decades to a century from now, then it won't just be unvaccinated people being blamed for whatever disasters unfold, the outcasts may not be unvaccinated or health pass related at all. but 2020-21 will likely be looked back upon as the turning point.
I won't be cheerleading it.

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To a lesser extent I share your pessimism about the future, and I also share your disappointment at the way a certain section of the political spectrum treats vaccine sceptics.

But IMO the rest of what you have written is again a huge catch-all statement:

If at some point during the next 100 years a new totalitarian regime emerges (think about how much has happened in the last 100 years and I agree that is pretty much nailed on)....If this happens in the West (highly possible, in the last century we've already had fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, East Germany, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, and I could go on)...If this regime discriminates against a certain category of person (again highly likely, they always do), which may have nothing whatsoever to do with vaccines or health passes, then the turning point will have been lockdowns/health passes/vaccines in 2020/2021.

I think the first few parts are so vague as to be almost guaranteed to happen, and I find the link to Covid at the end very unconvincing.

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Originally Posted by cher1

Agree with this. The only way out of this mess without many more deaths - and long term covid-related disease - is vaccination. It's the unvaccinated who are driving mutations, not the vaccinated. Viruses mutate when they replicate, and that's much more likely in an unvaccinated person. Hence mutations originating in places where vaccination rates are low.

I'm a bit puzzled by the analogy with Nazism, and any suggestion that the unvaccinated could be compared in any way to the plight of persecuted Jews. Those who aren't vaccinated risk their own health, their own lives, but also the health and lives of others by facilitating an increased risk of spread and mutation of the disease, along with all the resulting pressure on the NHS, which in itself causes others to suffer. People who choose not to be vaccinated aren't victims, those who suffer and/or die are the victims. I do however believe that everyone should have the right to choose whether to be vaccinated.

I was in hospital earlier this year (post-covid related) and chatted to some of the registrars about what it had been like for them working during the peak in the pre-vaccine days. It was absolutely heartbreaking listening. We can't kid ourselves that actually, we're wildly overcounting because we're including people who die 'with' covid. We ahad poor reporting structures in place at the outset of the pandemic, so many earlier covid deaths have never even been included.

However it's counted, it's not going to be perfect, but it's unlikely to be practical, or possible, to ascertain the exact cause of every single death, particularly in the sick and elderly. It's so fraught with difficulty. Yes, counting those dying with covid, rather than of covid is a blunt instrument, but it's about as good as it'll get. The excess death data bears out the horror of what's going on.

Anyway, it's booster time for me in the morning..

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The best post on this thread by a mile.

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

Sure. I wasn't saying you had claimed that. I was just pointing out that whatever value you place on some of them saying one thing, it is counterbalanced by someone them presumably thinking the exact opposite.

I suppose I was questioning the value of the 'some people say...' argument.



In some countries they're moving towards compulsory vaccinations. Not something I would get behind, but still a gazillion miles away from the holocaust.



To a lesser extent I share your pessimism about the future, and I also share your disappointment at the way a certain section of the political spectrum treats vaccine sceptics.

But IMO the rest of what you have written is again a huge catch-all statement:

If at some point during the next 100 years a new totalitarian regime emerges (think about how much has happened in the last 100 years and I agree that is pretty much nailed on)....If this happens in the West (highly possible, in the last century we've already had fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, East Germany, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, and I could go on)...If this regime discriminates against a certain category of person (again highly likely, they always do), which may have nothing whatsoever to do with vaccines or health passes, then the turning point will have been lockdowns/health passes/vaccines in 2020/2021.

I think the first few parts are so vague as to be almost guaranteed to happen, and I find the link to Covid at the end very unconvincing.

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People are now being sacked from their jobs for refusing to take this vaccine. Some countries are telling people they won't be allowed to work at all if they don't get the shot, being threatened with fines or refused entry to food outlets. We're on the cusp of literally starving people to death or making them homeless for not complying. Last week we had a man hunt for three people who had escaped an isolation camp in Australia. If we can do this to people for not having a vaccine, then why not extend it to people who won't say "Trans women are women" for example. That might sound far fetched in the here and now, but look how quickly institutions and businesses are now being captured. If we end up with a social credit system similar to China, us being rewarded with basic freedoms will not solely depend on vaccination status.

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Originally Posted by cher1

Agree with this. The only way out of this mess without many more deaths - and long term covid-related disease - is vaccination. It's the unvaccinated who are driving mutations, not the vaccinated. Viruses mutate when they replicate, and that's much more likely in an unvaccinated person. Hence mutations originating in places where vaccination rates are low.

I'm a bit puzzled by the analogy with Nazism, and any suggestion that the unvaccinated could be compared in any way to the plight of persecuted Jews. Those who aren't vaccinated risk their own health, their own lives, but also the health and lives of others by facilitating an increased risk of spread and mutation of the disease, along with all the resulting pressure on the NHS, which in itself causes others to suffer. People who choose not to be vaccinated aren't victims, those who suffer and/or die are the victims. I do however believe that everyone should have the right to choose whether to be vaccinated.

I was in hospital earlier this year (post-covid related) and chatted to some of the registrars about what it had been like for them working during the peak in the pre-vaccine days. It was absolutely heartbreaking listening. We can't kid ourselves that actually, we're wildly overcounting because we're including people who die 'with' covid. We ahad poor reporting structures in place at the outset of the pandemic, so many earlier covid deaths have never even been included.

However it's counted, it's not going to be perfect, but it's unlikely to be practical, or possible, to ascertain the exact cause of every single death, particularly in the sick and elderly. It's so fraught with difficulty. Yes, counting those dying with covid, rather than of covid is a blunt instrument, but it's about as good as it'll get. The excess death data bears out the horror of what's going on.

Anyway, it's booster time for me in the morning..

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Most unvaxxed now have natural immunity and are no more of a risk than somebody fully vaxxed. Very probably less of a risk if the fully vaxxed has not yet had Covid.

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Originally Posted by upthemaggies

People are now being sacked from their jobs for refusing to take this vaccine. Some countries are telling people they won't be allowed to work at all if they don't get the shot, being threatened with fines or refused entry to food outlets. We're on the cusp of literally starving people to death or making them homeless for not complying. Last week we had a man hunt for three people who had escaped an isolation camp in Australia. If we can do this to people for not having a vaccine, then why not extend it to people who won't say "Trans women are women" for example. That might sound far fetched in the here and now, but look how quickly institutions and businesses are now being captured. If we end up with a social credit system similar to China, us being rewarded with basic freedoms will not solely depend on vaccination status.

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The opposite side of your coin though is that people have, and continue to, die because of the unvaccinated population. Whether that's themselves or disease they pass to others.

Any requirement to be vaccinated isn't the ideological shift some might say it is. Vaccination against childhood diseases is compulsory in France, and has been for some years. Health workers in the UK who are at risk of exposure to blood and bodily fluids will only be employed if they are immune to Hep B (usually via vaccination).

I see things the opposite way round to you really - that vaccination is really the only viable way to regain the freedom we've lost.