Nicoliar calls

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Originally Posted by Deeranged

Infighting good

Unity of purpose bad

Class

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Alternative thinking/ideas good.

Dictatorship bad.

Uncomfortable truths.

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Originally Posted by noahrab

Alternative thinking/ideas good.

Dictatorship bad.

Uncomfortable truths.

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OK, I'll bite.

Why isn't the 'alternative thinking / idea' of independence good, when it actually unites a party, whilst some 'alternative thinking / ideas' that cause division in another party are good?

Who's the dictator? It's party policy that the party leader is sticking with and the party is doing what needs to be done to achieve it. Every elected SNP MP and MSP agrees with the policy it's what you call concensus, agreement or accord. Is it dictatorial to see a target and aim for it? Or does it show commitment to a cause?

There's no dictator and there's no cult.

Uncomfortable truth?

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Originally Posted by Deeranged

I'd throw that question right back at you. Why do you think we will be so massively worse off if we were being led by a corrupt Scottish government rather than a corrupt UK one?

I just want Scotland to be recognised as a free and independent country in my lifetime, ideally a republic because I dislike one family having so much wealth and influence whilst effectively doing nothing but existing. I genuinely don't see independence having a massive effect on the individual in the short to medium term (higher earners might need to pay more tax) however longer term I think the individual will benefit from the greater autonomy the nation will have in trade dealings internationally. My hope is that we'd become a more prosperous country or at least be as prosperous as we are now. I've never argued that I know how to achieve that, I leave that to the people that know how to.

My experiences working in England with mostly English but also Scottish, Irish and Welsh counterparts has shaped my thinking about England massively. The constant feeling of superiority that the English demonstrate at close quarters with people of the other UK nations is shocking, and it runs through their entire nation. This affects other nationalities too, the English firmly believe England is superior to all nations. They are a nation that believes England should be for the English and nobody else is welcome.

One thing I will say is that I've not seen too much of that attitude from English people settled here in Scotland, in fact I know plenty that would welcome an independent Scotland. I've said in the past that a good friend of mine who was a Professor of Economics at St. Andrews University was absolutely of the opinion that Scotland would be better off outside of the union - and he was English.

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I see a hard border, making travel harder, I see tax rises, higher tariffs added to exports, I fear for my job and many other jobs in Scotland from English owned or based companies

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Originally Posted by jdfc

I see a hard border, making travel harder, I see tax rises, higher tariffs added to exports, I fear for my job and many other jobs in Scotland from English owned or based companies

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Understandable fears, we just don't know for certain.

We all fear the unknown but it takes a little bit of bravery to overcome those fears and once you're over them you can look back and wonder what you were ever worried about.

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Originally Posted by eric_sinclair

Mibbe Wales will leave first, what happens then.
The bit I can't get my head around is anyone thinking we can't run our own country.
Of course it wud take time but why the hell not?
I'm pretty chilled either way if it happens great if no life goes on.
Benefits I see is make our own decisions good and bad, nae need for war choose our own government to run everything, also being a small country we could even see a new party emerge as imo most we have just now Inc snp are hopeless.
I love going down south, great country and people and will continue to do so.
I vote SNP so we mibbe get a shot at doing it alone, no part oh any cult and only saw braveheart twice.
I respect your opinion poss based on your age and job etc.
Ireland seems a cool place, needed bailed out I know but seems fine now, can we know do the same?
Just a thought

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Ireland cool, gave you been to Dublin, one of the most expensive places I’ve been,

War ? who are we at war with, we will always need to defend what’s ours, so can’t rule that out, EU through NATO supported Iraq invasions so we’d be part of that

We don’t have our own monetary system so will be controlled by Bank of England or the EU with the euro

This isn’t something that we can turn around a few years down the line if it’s no working, can’t just ask to go back, if you live comfy just now why would you want to gamble it, I know there is plenty poverty in Scotland but the SNP have had 14 years to sort it along with the drug problems, but they’d rather blame Westminster and take the plaudits for free bus passes and prescriptions, which I just don’t get, they hand a 60 year old in full employment free travel, when kids are going hungry, I’d put a £3 fee on prescriptions for employed people, unless the medicine was for life threatening illnesses or life lasting illnesses

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Originally Posted by jdfc

Ireland cool, gave you been to Dublin, one of the most expensive places I’ve been,

War ? who are we at war with, we will always need to defend what’s ours, so can’t rule that out, EU through NATO supported Iraq invasions so we’d be part of that

We don’t have our own monetary system so will be controlled by Bank of England or the EU with the euro

This isn’t something that we can turn around a few years down the line if it’s no working, can’t just ask to go back, if you live comfy just now why would you want to gamble it, I know there is plenty poverty in Scotland but the SNP have had 14 years to sort it along with the drug problems, but they’d rather blame Westminster and take the plaudits for free bus passes and prescriptions, which I just don’t get, they hand a 60 year old in full employment free travel, when kids are going hungry, I’d put a £3 fee on prescriptions for employed people, unless the medicine was for life threatening illnesses or life lasting illnesses

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Nae free travel for over 60, s and charge for prescriptions to help poverty, good idea imo and agree the snp need to do better.
Nae trident and nae following the USA into unnecessary wars was my point.
The monetary issue wud need adressesd of course.
Yes it wud be a gamble and I do get your point regarding your job but I thought my job was in doubt due to brexit but its not in doubt at all.
As deranged said sometimes a bit of bravery is needed to make change.

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Originally Posted by eric_sinclair

Nae free travel for over 60, s and charge for prescriptions to help poverty, good idea imo and agree the snp need to do better.
Nae trident and nae following the USA into unnecessary wars was my point.
The monetary issue wud need adressesd of course.
Yes it wud be a gamble and I do get your point regarding your job but I thought my job was in doubt due to brexit but its not in doubt at all.
As deranged said sometimes a bit of bravery is needed to make change.

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I feared for my job as a result of Brexit, I work for a French / American multinational company, but all it's meant in reality is a few more forms to fill out and hoops to jump through to import / export. Being non EU hasn't made any other difference to my work and in fact the forecast increase in orders for 2022 has already started biting now that people have realised the feared restrictions and delays haven't really materialised. That means more jobs rather than fewer jobs.

I'd see independence going the same way, fear and trepidation going into it followed by realisation that at the individual on the street level there's no noticeable change.

I also agree with removing free bus passes for over 60s, in fact I believe all concessions for older people should be removed, and free prescriptions for those that are not chronically ill should also be removed - subsidised yes, but free no.

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Originally Posted by eric_sinclair

Nae free travel for over 60, s and charge for prescriptions to help poverty, good idea imo and agree the snp need to do better.
Nae trident and nae following the USA into unnecessary wars was my point.
The monetary issue wud need adressesd of course.
Yes it wud be a gamble and I do get your point regarding your job but I thought my job was in doubt due to brexit but its not in doubt at all.
As deranged said sometimes a bit of bravery is needed to make change.

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Remove trident from Scotland removes around 6000 jobs, if they moved it to England or N Ireland, would make no difference to us if someone pushed the button we all fry

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Originally Posted by jdfc

Remove trident from Scotland removes around 6000 jobs, if they moved it to England or N Ireland, would make no difference to us if someone pushed the button we all fry

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How many jobs did the decimation of the mining and steel industries in Scotland cost? Can you remember the guys on TV outside the mines and mills saying that was them on the scrapheap because it was all they knew and wondered where they could go from there? Timex and jute mills were the same, people thinking that was it because it was all they'd known but they got other jobs. Michelin, same.

Did we find other industries to replace those jobs and did we recover?

It always looks bleak when it's framed as so many thousand jobs to be lost but people adapt and look back on it and wonder what the panic was. I did that when the place I was an apprentice closed. What skills did I have that people would want? Had the same thoughts when I left the RAF, when I look back now I consider that to be the best thing that ever happened to me. What hope was there for me at those points in my life? Went straight into work both times and have never been unemployed in over 40 years.

You're right about if the bomb drops though, whether Trident's in Scotland or moved to England we're all ****ed.

Heard an interesting comment explaining why Welsh Labour is doing better than Plaid Cmry. They are actually trying to make decisions option work. Why can't the Scottish Labour Party take the same approach at Holyrood? If the Scottish politicians actually tried to work together to make Holyrood an effective force maybe the SNP grievance approach would be seen for what it is, a step on the road to independence. I am hopeful that the Greens will refuse to join the SNP in governing Scotland and perhaps we might see effective action taken on education, ferries, rail and public transport.