O/T Prince Charles Tests Positive

Tricky, you have identified an alleged ‘attempt to discredit Johnson and the Government by the left’.

I don’t know how true or otherwise that is. No more than usual is, I suspect, the answer...but you won’t be surprised by me being equally reluctant to believe the musings of Paul Staines, aka ‘Guido’ by you, who is a well known right wing blogger.

Truth is...proper procurement is one of the most important jobs of government. In this instance both Trump and Johnson, or if you prefer, the Governments of both the USA and the UK, have been found seriously lacking. I don’t pretend to understand all the intricacies of the situation but it’s interesting that both countries have changed their stance as expert and public opinion have become more united.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Tricky, you have identified an alleged ‘attempt to discredit Johnson and the Government by the left’.

I don’t know how true or otherwise that is. No more than usual is, I suspect, the answer...but you won’t be surprised by me being equally reluctant to believe the musings of Paul Staines, aka ‘Guido’ by you, who is a well known right wing blogger.

Truth is...proper procurement is one of the most important jobs of government. In this instance both Trump and Johnson, or if you prefer, the Governments of both the USA and the UK, have been found seriously lacking. I don’t pretend to understand all the intricacies of the situation but it’s interesting that both countries have changed their stance as expert and public opinion have become more united.

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I actually think the left (or at least the official left, the Labour Party) have been pretty reasonable in towing the govt line, and should maybe have given them a gee up a bit earlier. Corbyn has for the most part been silent, McDonnell has been talking a lot of sense but playing catchup a bit, and thank God Owen Jones hasn't been conspicuous although I read he did try to put a gay spin on things early on (maybe I read that in a TTR post though). I think the govt have been towing the scientific line all through though, just the boffins were wrong about herd immunity

Oh ome on RA, it doesn't matter where the article was from. I told you to read the quotes.
There is an international shortage going on, from "experts". Yet the Guardian prints an article and you never even question it, even though its a left wing rag.

Whether Johnson has it right or wrong is in truth a bit of both. But to put all the blame on him, is laughable.

Ask yourself this.
Could Johnson have got away in this country like South Korea with a total lock down?
All travel stopped/ and the population scrutinised?

This bit intrigued me, from the Guardian artilce.

South Korea employed a central tracking app, Corona 100m, that publicly informs citizens of known cases within 100 metres of where they are. Surprisingly, a culture that has often rebelliously rejected authoritarianism has embraced intrusive measures.

I would have liked to have seen it, but I cannot imagine certain politicians giving the government an inch on such a crack down.

Stop and search was proven to reduce knife crime. Yet certain elements especially in the capital kicked up a **** storm to get it halted.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019...n-black-people

So no, I don't believe it was a straight forward to implement anything here.
As we have both commented and agreed on. There should be no political point scoring at this time.
Hell will freeze over before that happens.

Corbyn and Nandy have been slaughtered over it.
It's easy to critise when you're not the one driving.

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Oh ome on RA, it doesn't matter where the article was from. I told you to read the quotes.
There is an international shortage going on, from "experts". Yet the Guardian prints an article and you never even question it, even though its a left wing rag.

Whether Johnson has it right or wrong is in truth a bit of both. But to put all the blame on him, is laughable.

Ask yourself this.
Could Johnson have got away in this country like South Korea with a total lock down?
All travel stopped/ and the population scrutinised?

This bit intrigued me, from the Guardian artilce.

South Korea employed a central tracking app, Corona 100m, that publicly informs citizens of known cases within 100 metres of where they are. Surprisingly, a culture that has often rebelliously rejected authoritarianism has embraced intrusive measures.

I would have liked to have seen it, but I cannot imagine certain politicians giving the government an inch on such a crack down.

Stop and search was proven to reduce knife crime. Yet certain elements especially in the capital kicked up a **** storm to get it halted.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019...n-black-people

So no, I don't believe it was a straight forward to implement anything here.
As we have both commented and agreed on. There should be no political point scoring at this time.
Hell will freeze over before that happens.

Corbyn and Nandy have been slaughtered over it.
It's easy to critise when you're not the one driving.

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Ah another apologist for BoJo arises, but then you believe all his lies it seems so why would you admit anything other than you have trotted out before? Though its a fool who is easily fooled who pretends he is not a fool!

RA and others were not blaming Johnson solely, I believe the word Government was used which is a collective body, not sure why your so keen to make excuses for him, but then you with your ludicrous left wing conspiracy theories was apparently unable to believe that courts and especially the Belgian courts could reach adecision that was not a representation of the true facts.

Recently the whole scandal over how the Post Office secured convictions and jail terms for sub postmasters whom they accused of fraud, has revealed how lawyers, politicians (including some LIb Dems to their shame) were completely hoodwinked by the Post Office (indeed lied to in court) over grave faults in the IT system used, even the company that installed the IT was in on the fabrication.

But no you willing to pour scorn on the left, but the right wing rich elite who are the ones screwing you can do no wrong, like ****ing sheep to the slaughter, what a laughing stock you are!

Yes there is a shortage now, but funnily enough recommendations were made to the government over two months ago, they werent acted on!

Back in 2016 the Tory Government had a report which stated what was required to enable the NHS to cope with a flu like pandemic, the government chose not to act on it - most of those in power today were MP's and/or in government then and are culpable. The same people were those who went along with austerity and the wholesale cuts to the NHS, which has weakened its ability to cope.Never mind promising £350 million for the NHS, how about bloody listening to those who are experts?

They cant blame anybody else but themselves for the lack of preparation for this, I mean we did have SARS FFS!

‘Where the article was from’ always matters, Tricky. Always check your sources.

As it happens I do question Guardian quotes, but I usually find them reliable and, far from being a ‘left wing rag’ it’s one of just two newspapers in the UK that I trust.

I haven’t ever suggested that Johnson/the Tory Government have got everything wrong. I’ve applauded what I understand of the economic response. I admire the building of the new hospital in London and others elsewhere and I have supported the lockdown against the likes of Lord Sumption.

There are however many things that I believe to have been done badly and wrong. I’ve outlined them elsewhere. That’s my opinion and I’m not about to apologise for it.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

You know what, I don't care if he lied. If Churchill, a well known manipulator of the truth in the early days of WW2, could lie to shield the people from the realities of early wartime setbacks, so can BJ. There are times that panic management needs deception and reassurances.

There will be plenty of time to rake over what we could have done better, and learn lessons, once we are past "the darkest hour". This really is a war, and sometimes the truth gets inconveniently in the way. So throw a bag over it.

When Tricky's Martians turn up, are you going to be out there telling them all our weak spots??

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This comparison with wartime is tiresome and irrelevant! We are not fighting a war, we are dealing with a virus and whislt the more excitable media types may have used the overhyped comparison, in reality the scenarios are totally different!

Plus we are in a different world from World war 2 when society basically did what those in power told them and mostly believed it. I can't believe you actually said "the truth gets inconveniently in the way" of people understanding? Thankfully these days most people can understand the facts if communicated to them correctly!

As for ****ing martians ye gods I despair!

How has his lies and cackhanded handling of this crisis stopped panic? In fact its done the opposite looking at what has happened.

Oh well I guess if your happy with a liar and buffoon as leader, then no doubt you will be happy with the mismanagement and wont complain at the adverse effects of such a idiot being in charge of the country!

Oh and on leadership, how come it took the government over a week after the Germans had done it to organise flights to repatriate Uk citizens abroad? In some cases German authorities were actually providing help and assistance to UK citizens, when none was forthcoming from the UK government. Talk about piss up brewery couldn't organise one and yet the apologists still come forward.

Truly in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king!

I was accused of being a lefty yesterday in an FB discussion. The same contributor also thought that, as I no longer live in theUK, my thoughts were irrelevant and I had no right to give them. Fortunately, there are not meny on here who would agree with that. What had I said?

I applauded the government on their financial package to keep jobs and businesses going and there for the future as all will be necessary.

I was critical of BJ following Cummings' advice on herd immunity which was against the expert advice. I did say, as I have on here, that he is doing his best but that isn't good enough and most measures have been too little too late.

I was also critical of UK governments of all flavours who have neglected, over decades, to put a plan in place to deal with a pandemic despite the experience worldwide gained from SARS, MERS, Ebola etc.

The accusations were that I was a BJ hater (that bit is pretty close to the truth) and let that colour my views and that I was only critical of the Tories. I begged to differ as I had also praised the financial package and slated Labour and the LDs for their part in not having a plan in place.

Despite the odd wild view on here and the odd one placed merely to gain a reaction on here, we seem to be able to plough through without getting extreme towards each other.

IMO, the above views will ring true in many heads on this forum.

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

I was accused of being a lefty yesterday in an FB discussion. The same contributor also thought that, as I no longer live in theUK, my thoughts were irrelevant and I had no right to give them. Fortunately, there are not meny on here who would agree with that. What had I said?

I applauded the government on their financial package to keep jobs and businesses going and there for the future as all will be necessary.

I was critical of BJ following Cummings' advice on herd immunity which was against the expert advice. I did say, as I have on here, that he is doing his best but that isn't good enough and most measures have been too little too late.

I was also critical of UK governments of all flavours who have neglected, over decades, to put a plan in place to deal with a pandemic despite the experience worldwide gained from SARS, MERS, Ebola etc.

The accusations were that I was a BJ hater (that bit is pretty close to the truth) and let that colour my views and that I was only critical of the Tories. I begged to differ as I had also praised the financial package and slated Labour and the LDs for their part in not having a plan in place.

Despite the odd wild view on here and the odd one placed merely to gain a reaction on here, we seem to be able to plough through without getting extreme towards each other.

IMO, the above views will ring true in many heads on this forum.

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Amen to that - there is much that is positive, but no government or leader can be exempt from justified criticism and the decisions made previously by governments in which these people were involved needs to be remembered.

Looks like the press don't think they are doing a good job.....

Attachment 15404

...and at least one individual thought BJ was enough of a failure to create this.....

Attachment 15405

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Originally Posted by swaledale

This comparison with wartime is tiresome and irrelevant! We are not fighting a war, we are dealing with a virus and whislt the more excitable media types may have used the overhyped comparison, in reality the scenarios are totally different!

Plus we are in a different world from World war 2 when society basically did what those in power told them and mostly believed it. I can't believe you actually said "the truth gets inconveniently in the way" of people understanding? Thankfully these days most people can understand the facts if communicated to them correctly!

As for ****ing martians ye gods I despair!

How has his lies and cackhanded handling of this crisis stopped panic? In fact its done the opposite looking at what has happened.

Oh well I guess if your happy with a liar and buffoon as leader, then no doubt you will be happy with the mismanagement and wont complain at the adverse effects of such a idiot being in charge of the country!

Oh and on leadership, how come it took the government over a week after the Germans had done it to organise flights to repatriate Uk citizens abroad? In some cases German authorities were actually providing help and assistance to UK citizens, when none was forthcoming from the UK government. Talk about piss up brewery couldn't organise one and yet the apologists still come forward.

Truly in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king!

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FYI the WW2 allusion was in response to YOU making the comparison in one of these COVID threads a couple of days ago. The Martians observation was in response to Tricky's equally humorous reference thereto.

However I stick to my principles outlined in the thread:

1. Do not demonise individuals based on your love/hate of their politics. If you really think BJ et al make these decisions, then I despair. They rubber stamp and announce them.

2.Criticise the decisions by all means, but not the individuals, and then only on an informed basis, not just because "I read it somewhere" or "so and so said".

3. It is important to manage panic. We saw the impact of panic buying at the start. It's only a matter of time before certain people start breaking rank on the voluntary lockdown: maybe by week 5 if some positive stats start to emerge. People go stir crazy, and all of a sudden all the good work of those 5 weeks is ruined.

4. Truth and lies? There is so much *******s being spouted on social media that people seem to believe implicitly for some reason: what's the harm in another bit of mangled truth, especially if it manages outcomes. Part of me would love to shut social media down as well, but it's probably all that keeps some people from breaking lock down already.

5. Managing the aftermath is the key.

6. FWIW the situation in India scares the bejesus out of me